View Full Version : Median incomes. From ace cub reporter ljb
This link provides a handy map showing how far median incomes have dropped over the past six years from The Washington Monthly, courtesy of the Detroit Free Press.)
Go to this link for the map and the rest of the story. http://www.firedoglake.com/
A weblog for evidence?
Explain to me how your linked sit is any more trustworthy than the fat guy sitting next to me in a bar.
A weblog for evidence?
Explain to me how your linked sit is any more trustworthy than the fat guy sitting next to me in a bar.
The linked site is sober.
Secretariat
09-05-2006, 05:02 PM
Tom,
Suggest you do your due dilligence on this one.
The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities lists some sobering facts.
http://www.cbpp.org/pubs/povinc.htm
Take your time on this page. It is an eye opener.
Bottom line:
Poverty remains at record levels
Median income for Non-Elderly is lower
Poor Performance Unprecedented for Four Year Recovery
Number of Uninsured Americans at all time high
The page allows you to look at Poverty and Income Analysis by year.
So there is rhetoric, and then there is research with facts.
Before you respond, go to the page and read some of the analyses...
ljb The linked site is sober. :lol:
Also Tom will not be drinking with the fat guy when he checks out the site.
Show Me the Wire
09-05-2006, 05:18 PM
Could illegal immigration contribute to the median income statistic?
a quote from a Union representaive supporting illegal immigrants at a rally.
"The majority of laborers in the construction industry are immigrant and Hispanic workers, Nelson said. A lot of them are out here today."
From the Article "Unions join pro-immigration rally in Portland" by
Libby Tucker,Daily Journal of Commerce, Portland, Ore
Construction jobs, a good example of jobs no American citizen would want to do. :bang:
Show Me the Wire
09-05-2006, 05:19 PM
Tom,
Suggest you do your due dilligence on this one.
The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities lists some sobering facts.
http://www.cbpp.org/pubs/povinc.htm
Take your time on this page. It is an eye opener.
Bottom line:
Poverty remains at record levels
Median income for Non-Elderly is lower
Poor Performance Unprecedented for Four Year Recovery
Number of Uninsured Americans at all time high
The page allows you to look at Poverty and Income Analysis by year.
So there is rhetoric, and then there is research with facts.
Before you respond, go to the page and read some of the analyses...
And illegal immigration contributes to these sobering statistics.
Could illegal immigration contribute to the median income statistic?
Could be. That's why Bush wants to keep them in this country.
Construction jobs, a good example of jobs no American citizen would want to do. :bang:
I think you may want to check out how much the illegals are getting paid before you say no American citizen would do.
Perhaps a better way to say it would be "at a wage no American citizen could survive on".
Show Me the Wire
09-05-2006, 05:28 PM
That is what I mean, irony. The politicians and activist that defend illegal immigration in support of their position say no American would want to do these jobs.
SMTW Could illegal immigration contribute to the median income statistic?If you look at the map ljb linked, you will see many of the hardest hit states are not those hit hardest by immigration.
http://static.firedoglake.com/2006/09/blogmedianincome.jpg
Wash state
Oregon
Mich
Ohio
Ind
Ill
Utah?
Show Me the Wire
09-05-2006, 05:38 PM
Did you read my above post? The article came from Portland Oregon, talking about the influx of illegal immigrants into the construction industry. The article and the resulting drop in median income, in Oregon, tends to support the view illegal immigration is a cause of the effect of lower median income.
Sec, not NY due dillignece - I don't bring it up. If ljb want to make a point, it is HIS due dilligence.
Ljb, Bush and UNIONS are on the same page then, because it was unions who sponsored the large demonstartions in the spring - in fact, US unions are encouraging law breaking and weakening national security.
And Hcap, still wainting for the credibility of the link Lbj posted, and which you are now qutoing, and we all know YOUR recent record on posting honest sites, don't we?
Woo woo woo woo! knuk knuk knuk!
Perhaps a better way to say it would be "at a wage no American citizen could survive on".
Let's look at this logically.
1. There are jobs American will not do for the wages offered.
2. If they will not do the jobs, the wages will HAVE to increase or the jobs will not get done.
3. If illegal aliens come and do the jobs for the low wages, the wages will never go up, and Americans are now out of work because the illegal aliens are........
S C A B S
Tsk tsk tsk
You anti union guys amaze me!
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006608300319
Tom, the link is originally from the Detroit Free press. I'm sure it was researched more thoroughly than your fat drinking buddys' opinion.
Gee talk about suspect sources. Actually if your friend is one of those drunks that love to espouse for hours, your prolific postings, by far more than any one else on the board by tons-or pounds, could now be easily explained. :lol:
SMTW, I am not saying immigration does not play a role, but the outsourcing of the good jobs, and the diminishing manufacturing base is really what is lowering income level.
We know McJobs are replacing jobs paying much more. Also you sayThe article came from Portland Oregon, talking about the influx of illegal immigrants into the construction industry. Illegal immigrants, are not paying income taxes and their affect in terms of lowering median income for all legal citizens in their state is difficult to factor in to the puzzle. I don't believe that is calculated. However tax paying legal immigrants are earning higher incomes and would be clearly part of the calculation and would not lower the median as much as illegals-working for the lowest wages
Also if immigration is the major reason incomes have fallen, what about Calif?
Look on the map.
Show Me the Wire
09-05-2006, 06:48 PM
hcap:
As Tom stated, the illegals are forcing native U.S. citizens into lower paying jobs and causing unemployment. This effects median income.
Yes, illegals do file income tax, under false or stolen identities, showing lower income as they work for less than a native born citizen. Another factor in lowering median income.
According to your theory outsourcing would have no effect as jobs are removed and the people that lost their jobs would be unemployed and not file income tax.
Both are problems.
Show Me the Wire
09-05-2006, 06:56 PM
Could be. That's why Bush wants to keep them in this country.
Could you explain why Senator Harry Reid agrees with President Bush. It seems Sen. Reid is not advocating a different policy.
You see where the Democrats really could make a difference on a national issue, they do not differentiate themselves from the Republican leadership.
SMTWAccording to your theory outsourcing would have no effect as jobs are removed and the people that lost their jobs would be unemployed and not file income tax.No, now they're working at the corner laundry at half they're previous wage. And it would show on their w2s
Filing under false identities by some is not as prevalent as working for cash.
Toms scab theory does make some sense. I'm sure that's part of it, but still does not explain why some states are really hit and others are not. If we could find some correlation in numbers of immigrants to drop in income, I might accept some of your argument. Right now globalization, nafta, cafta, get my vote
Show Me the Wire
09-05-2006, 08:13 PM
SMTWNo, now they're working at the corner laundry at half they're previous wage. And it would show on their w2s
Why would they take such a low paying jobs, if native Americans do not want to work at better paying construction jobs?
Maybe because the illegal immigrants do not want the less prestigious low paying jobs?
Do not misunderstand. I agree with you about globalization, Nafta, etc, but illegal immigration is adding tremedous fuel to the fire.
JustRalph
09-05-2006, 09:30 PM
so you guys got a whole thread devoted to this weeks Democratic talking points and the catch phrase of the day.
kenwoodallpromos
09-05-2006, 11:14 PM
Tom,
Suggest you do your due dilligence on this one.
The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities lists some sobering facts.
http://www.cbpp.org/pubs/povinc.htm
Take your time on this page. It is an eye opener.
Bottom line:
Poverty remains at record levels
Median income for Non-Elderly is lower
Poor Performance Unprecedented for Four Year Recovery
Number of Uninsured Americans at all time high
The page allows you to look at Poverty and Income Analysis by year.
So there is rhetoric, and then there is research with facts.
*****Before you respond, go to the page and read some of the analyses...
_____
I DID!:
"Urban Institute Study Confirms That Welfare Bills Would Increase Child Poverty
Summary
On Friday, July 26 the Urban Institute released a study showing that the House welfare bill would push 1.1 million children — and 2.6 million people overall — into poverty, increasing the number of children in poverty by about 12 percent. The study included the following additional findings:
The bill would make large numbers of families that are already poor still poorer. They would fall deeper into poverty. Specifically, the bill would increase the overall depth and severity of child poverty by 20 percent. (Technically, the bill would increase the "poverty gap" of families with children by more than $4 billion, or 20 percent. The poverty gap is the measure of the total amount of income needed to lift all poor families exactly to the poverty line.)
One in five families with children — or 8.2 million families — would see their incomes fall as a result of the bill by an average of $1,300."
____
This excerpt is from your link whuch I went back and read- it is an analysis of the welfare reform bill of 1996 that Clinton signed and the Demos had a big hand in passing as well as the Repubs!
Your one-sided lib board of directors like to higthlight the years that the Repubs are in office, but ignore pretty much the fact that the rich politico fat cats of BOTH PARTIES hinder the middle and especially the lower classes.
That is why I like to vote 3rd party!
Could you explain why Senator Harry Reid agrees with President Bush. It seems Sen. Reid is not advocating a different policy.
You see where the Democrats really could make a difference on a national issue, they do not differentiate themselves from the Republican leadership.
Smtw,
Check the thread regarding pensions. Reid is probably another pos politician. Lieberman is another Democrat that failed to differentiate himself from the Republican leadership.
_____
Your one-sided lib board of directors like to higthlight the years that the Repubs are in office, but ignore pretty much the fact that the rich politico fat cats of BOTH PARTIES hinder the middle and especially the lower classes.
That is why I like to vote 3rd party!
Last two third party candidates that I recall were. Ross Perot and Ralph Nader. Folks on both sides of the fence contend these guys cost their guy the election. We need campaign finance reform. Get the rich politico fat cats out of here.
kenwoodallpromos
09-06-2006, 01:47 PM
Last two third party candidates that I recall were. Ross Perot and Ralph Nader. Folks on both sides of the fence contend these guys cost their guy the election. We need campaign finance reform. Get the rich politico fat cats out of here.
__________
I thought the claim was that those I voted for, Perot AND Nader, were so influencial they helped decide the election! How much of what they advocated turned out correct? Re-enforce cockpit cabins? a pie-chart to balance the budget?
"When H. Ross Perot ran for President back in 1992, he coined a memorable political phrase. The passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement, he said, would create "a giant sucking sound" -- the sound of jobs escaping out of the U.S. and into Mexico."
1998- ""The problem is, we don't feel it," Nader said. People accept high cost for health care, bank charges at automated teller machines and high percentage fees on credit cards as a matter of course, he said.
"Then the government beats up on the $300-a-month welfare mothers," Nader said. "There's an example of government and corporations turning the middle class against the poor."
While corporations are growing and reports rate the national economy as the best it has been in years, Nader pointed out that 80 percent of American workers are losing economic ground and most homeowners only own 57 percent of their homes. Services such as community health, libraries and school budgets are being cut and the government still is willing to bail out corporations in trouble. Meanwhile, Nader says, personal bankruptcy filings have reached a record number."
__________
I thought the claim was that those I voted for, Perot AND Nader, were so influencial they helped decide the election! How much of what they advocated turned out correct? Re-enforce cockpit cabins? a pie-chart to balance the budget?
Well ok, if that's the way you want to spin it. They indeed did help decide the election as did every other American that voted. I would be more then happy to support a third party candidate. Not familiar with the pie-chart concept.
That sucking sound is growing louder.
Are you done yet ? ;)
I agree with the rest of your note also.
TurfRuler
09-06-2006, 02:08 PM
I walk everywhere I go. Down city streets and country roads in my hometown in NC. Every contruction site I see, not the roadside, highway contructions that stall traffic, but the high end condo's being built, the new office towers going up, the new shelter for the homeless, the new and needed sidewalks for pedestrians, the cable wires being laid are all being done by foreigners to my southern climate. There was a time when only a white man would do these skilled crafts and the jim crow negroes were only allowed to dig and haul. My surprise is with all the brothers at the shelters or living the American dream, there aren't more of us out there doing these needed jobs. Are the foreigners more skilled at building and construction work or is something more sinister at work here. Even in the environment I am used to, the sit down job, where the clean up crew was by far every day Americans having a job that they had to do because they did not have the skill or ability to work in the office environment, or second job, or factory, yet there too are the foreigners, polishing, vacuming and cleaning the bathroom on a nighthly basis. We may not want to do gardening or pick cotton anymore, but when it comes to work our history proves the nay sayers to be full of it in saying we prefer welfare to work. And being bi-lingual for a decent job that pays nearly double the pay for just plain english speaking is by far the most outrageous piece of cornmeal coming out your butt that I ever heard, since the southern voting rights test given to disenfranchised voters to keep them from voting, questions like "how many senators live in your neighborhood". Answer correctly and the answer is still wrong.
kenwoodallpromos
09-06-2006, 02:12 PM
Well ok, if that's the way you want to spin it. They indeed did help decide the election as did every other American that voted. I would be more then happy to support a third party candidate. Not familiar with the pie-chart concept.
That sucking sound is growing louder.
Are you done yet ? ;)
I agree with the rest of your note also.
"http://www.ontheissues.org/Ross_Perot.htm"
sq764
09-06-2006, 05:44 PM
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006608300319
Tom, the link is originally from the Detroit Free press. I'm sure it was researched more thoroughly than your fat drinking buddys' opinion.
Gee talk about suspect sources. Actually if your friend is one of those drunks that love to espouse for hours, your prolific postings, by far more than any one else on the board by tons-or pounds, could now be easily explained. :lol:
SMTW, I am not saying immigration does not play a role, but the outsourcing of the good jobs, and the diminishing manufacturing base is really what is lowering income level.
We know McJobs are replacing jobs paying much more. Also you sayIllegal immigrants, are not paying income taxes and their affect in terms of lowering median income for all legal citizens in their state is difficult to factor in to the puzzle. I don't believe that is calculated. However tax paying legal immigrants are earning higher incomes and would be clearly part of the calculation and would not lower the median as much as illegals-working for the lowest wages
Also if immigration is the major reason incomes have fallen, what about Calif?
Look on the map.
Maybe if worthless piece of crap Kwame Kilpatrick and Granholm did ANYTHING, Detroit wouldn;t be such a poor shithole,, But why would any dem actuaaly blame the responsible parties???
PlanB
09-06-2006, 06:09 PM
This congress & administration cannot deal with illegal immigration. To do that
requires the belief that the federal gov't should protect its citizens with its
citizens' tax dollars. Instead, Bush squanders our money, and leads his herd
to think market forces determine whats right. LOL, if that's so then the
market forces have spoken: leave the minimum wage low & don't interfere
with who we hire. I'd like to see a president, republican or democrat, who
actually knows what role the federal government should take on many issues.
Education? Poverty? Gun control? Drug & food safety?
sq, Maybe if worthless piece of crap Kwame Kilpatrick and Granholm did ANYTHING, Detroit wouldn;t be such a poor shithole,, But why would any dem actuaaly blame the responsible parties???
Are you saying because Detroit is a "shithole" the Detroit Free press lacks credibility?
Hey I basically think the same as you, but I don't automatically discount EVERYTHING you babble.
Besides I was comparing Tom's fat friends' opinion with the Detroit Free Press.
I would suspect you must have your own fat friend with similar shortcommings?
JustRalph
09-06-2006, 07:09 PM
Education? Poverty? Gun control? Drug & food safety?
Yep, the government should have nothing to do with any of the above. Now you got it!
PlanB
09-06-2006, 07:23 PM
That's ridiculous, got it?
sq764
09-06-2006, 08:39 PM
sq, Are you saying because Detroit is a "shithole" the Detroit Free press lacks credibility?
Hey I basically think the same as you, but I don't automatically discount EVERYTHING you babble.
Besides I was comparing Tom's fat friends' opinion with the Detroit Free Press.
I would suspect you must have your own fat friend with similar shortcommings?
If you weren't so sad, you'd be pathetic.
I feel sorry for you, I really do.
PaceAdvantage
09-06-2006, 10:08 PM
Watch the meaningless replies filled with meaningless insults. They're worthless.
sq764
09-06-2006, 10:10 PM
Watch the meaningless replies filled with meaningless insults. They're worthless.
I didn't think 'sad' was an insult.. I stand corrected.
I will not speak the truth anymore :D
PaceAdvantage
09-06-2006, 10:32 PM
OK, maybe not an insult 100%....but it leads to nothing productive....
I have to step in every now and then and remind folks that just because this is off-topic, doesn't mean it's a free-for-all.
Maybe if worthless piece of crap Kwame Kilpatrick and Granholm did ANYTHING, Detroit wouldn;t be such a poor shithole,, But why would any dem actuaaly blame the responsible parties???
And by responsible parties you are reffering to ?
Secretariat
09-07-2006, 06:43 PM
And illegal immigration contributes to these sobering statistics.
I emailed the center and they were gracius enough to respond. Here's what they said:
"The overall Census figures do include all U.S. residents, citizen or otherwise, who live in civilian non-institutional households.
Over the long term, non-citizens surely have an effect on economic trends. But I haven't seen signs that they are driving the recent economic news.
Detailed Census tables suggest that non-citizens fared similarly, or if anything a bit better, than native-born citizens in 2005. Median household income was up significantly (+3.3 percent) for the foreign born in 2005, but statistically unchanged for the native born (+0.2 percent, not a signifcant increase). The numbers and percentages of foreign-born and non-citizen residents living in poverty appeared to edge downward in 2005, doing a hair better than native-born citizens, but none of those poverty changes was statistically significant for either group.
Looking over a slightly longer time frame of the last four years, rather than just the past year, median income for non-Hispanic white households dropped faster, after adjusting for inflation, than did median income for all households since 2001. But again, neither change was statistically significant."
sq764
09-07-2006, 10:54 PM
And by responsible parties you are reffering to ?
not a very comprehensive reader are ya?
(hint: the answer is in the first sentence.. you can get it! I know you can!)
And by responsible parties you are reffering to ?
Same criteria you use for the nation - Kwame is in charge, it is his fault.
<<<<Over the long term, non-citizens surely have an effect on economic trends.>>>>
Our tax dollars at work. Bill to allow Illegal Immigrants the right to apply and recieve Student Loans reaches final hurdle.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/living/education/15459047.htm
I just do not understand. Why don't the American sucker {taxpayer} provide a welfare system that covers the entire Earth?
_________________
Outsource congress
not a very comprehensive reader are ya?
(hint: the answer is in the first sentence.. you can get it! I know you can!)
So then what you are saying is: The governor of michigan and mayor of detroit both who have been in office about 4 years and neither having invaded a soverign nation, are responsible for the downfall of Detroit over the past 20-30 years. What about blaming Clinton ? Did you guys forget him ? :lol: Get Real guys !!
Secretariat
09-08-2006, 05:07 PM
I just do not understand. Why don't the American sucker {taxpayer} provide a welfare system that covers the entire Earth?
We do. There are American corporations (i.e. Halliburton) located all over "the entire Earth."
So then what you are saying is: The governor of michigan and mayor of detroit both who have been in office about 4 years and neither having invaded a soverign nation, are responsible for the downfall of Detroit over the past 20-30 years. What about blaming Clinton ? Did you guys forget him ? :lol: Get Real guys !!
Let's face the reality of it - the PEOPLE of Detroit are responsible for living in a cesspool. As is the case everywehre. People who do not want to live like pigs do not live like pigs. Has nothing to do with money, wealth, the economy - it has everything to do with the person who refuses to do someting about it.
sq764
09-09-2006, 12:30 PM
So then what you are saying is: The governor of michigan and mayor of detroit both who have been in office about 4 years and neither having invaded a soverign nation, are responsible for the downfall of Detroit over the past 20-30 years. What about blaming Clinton ? Did you guys forget him ? :lol: Get Real guys !!
The article mentioned their economy dropped more than any other int he past 6 years. Now I am not mathemetican, but if the governor and mayor were there for 4 of those 6 years (66.6%), shouldn't they take some responsibility?
And you loser dems wonder why you never win anything. Too dense to accept the blame for the horrible job your elected reps are doing. It's quite comical.. :lol: :lol: :lol:
The article mentioned their economy dropped more than any other int he past 6 years. Now I am not mathemetican, but if the governor and mayor were there for 4 of those 6 years (66.6%), shouldn't they take some responsibility?
And you loser dems wonder why you never win anything. Too dense to accept the blame for the horrible job your elected reps are doing. It's quite comical.. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last 6 years hmmm. Now let me think who has been in control for the last 6 years hmmm ? Who is that again ? Oh wait it's the neocons. hmmm ?
sq, your lack of knowledge is starting to show perhaps you should take some time off the board.
Just like NO, eh, l.....you guys are not responsible for your own city/state....need Uncle Sugar to take care of you?
sq764
09-09-2006, 07:24 PM
Last 6 years hmmm. Now let me think who has been in control for the last 6 years hmmm ? Who is that again ? Oh wait it's the neocons. hmmm ?
sq, your lack of knowledge is starting to show perhaps you should take some time off the board.
Just repeating your comment bub, sorry:
"The governor of michigan and mayor of detroit both who have been in office about 4 years and neither having invaded a soverign nation, are responsible for the downfall of Detroit over the past 20-30 years."
sq764
09-09-2006, 07:26 PM
Last 6 years hmmm. Now let me think who has been in control for the last 6 years hmmm ? Who is that again ? Oh wait it's the neocons. hmmm ?
sq, your lack of knowledge is starting to show perhaps you should take some time off the board.
And it is quite comical when people make you look foolish when they disagree and disprove pretty much everything you post - you resort to the old 'you have no knowledge' well...
Didn't work for the idiot Dems, doesn't work for you son...
Just like NO, eh, l.....you guys are not responsible for your own city/state....need Uncle Sugar to take care of you?
Please show us where I said anything about uncle sugar taking care of anybody. Or is this something you heard from the fat guy in the bar ? :bang:
And it is quite comical when people make you look foolish when they disagree and disprove pretty much everything you post - you resort to the old 'you have no knowledge' well...
Didn't work for the idiot Dems, doesn't work for you son...
sorry Sq but, while you have disagreed with most everything I posted you have failed to disprove anything. Not sure what you mean with your last statement dad...
You convinced me he's wrong,SQ.
And sooo many people make him look foolish! :lol:
That little innocent me act is so transparent.
This guy has the zip of a deflated soccer ball.
Pot shot troll. That's the best I can do for him.
sq764
09-10-2006, 01:57 AM
sorry Sq but, while you have disagreed with most everything I posted you have failed to disprove anything. Not sure what you mean with your last statement dad...
you're simply hopeless.. That is all I can say.
sq764
09-10-2006, 01:59 AM
You convinced me he's wrong,SQ.
And sooo many people make him look foolish! :lol:
That little innocent me act is so transparent.
This guy has the zip of a deflated soccer ball.
Pot shot troll. That's the best I can do for him.
It's like when you tell your kid to not to get near the oven and they insist on doing it and burning themselves.. There is only so much we can do with these Dem lovers..
You convinced me he's wrong,SQ.
And sooo many people make him look foolish! :lol:
That little innocent me act is so transparent.
This guy has the zip of a deflated soccer ball.
Pot shot troll. That's the best I can do for him.
Are you trying to make a point on topic here ?
Again and again when you lose the battle you resort to the old Rovian personal attack mode. You really need a new game plan Tom, this one is getting old. Perhaps the fat guy in the bar can help you. :lol: :lol: :lol:
It's like when you tell your kid to not to get near the oven and they insist on doing it and burning themselves.. There is only so much we can do with these Dem lovers..
Cute SQ,
I like the way you follow Tom's lead. I think Tom learned his method from Lefty. He is known as little Lefty by some. Would you prefer little lefty jr. or little lefty the second ? :lol:
sq764
09-10-2006, 11:33 AM
Cute SQ,
I like the way you follow Tom's lead. I think Tom learned his method from Lefty. He is known as little Lefty by some. Would you prefer little lefty jr. or little lefty the second ? :lol:
I took my lead from my 21 month old. He seriously tries to reach into the oven everytime my wife uses it. I try to lead him along and give him the best advice but he doesn't seem to listen either..
Sq, I think ljb used to be in the Harmonica Rascals. Guese which one?
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