Breeders Cup Needs Another Race

[The Judge]

I think the BC needs another race on the dirt at say 1 Mile to 1 1/16th. Some horses can't get 1 1/4 and some barns do not want to run their horses against each other in the 1 1/4. If people agree may be someone can run a poll for the distance.

[rrpic6]

I'd like to see a 5 Furlong Turf Race for both Fillies and Colts.

[JustRalph]

I'd like to see a 5 Furlong Turf Race for both Fillies and Colts.


I would agree with this.

[Tom]

Interesting idea......a 5 furlong SPRINT race, move the sprint to 7 furlongs - a good test for short and long runners in the sprint family. Good milers, fast sprinters meeting on middle ground.

[Stevie Belmont]

I would love to see the 5 furlong grass race.


Keep the sprint at the 6 furlongs.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Fill in the gap with a 7f dirt mare and filly.

[keilan]

I'd like to see a 5 Furlong Turf Race for both Fillies and Colts.


Not nearly enuff cheap speed in game -- lets bred some :bang:

[Stevie Belmont]

From a handicapping standpoint they great betting races.

[OTM Al]

I'm not so big on a turf sprint or a mile on dirt but I would love to see a juvenile turf at 1/16th and a 2m turf for stayers

[ghostyapper]

A 1 mile dirt race is what I would like to see added.

[cj]

The Breeder's Cup is about crowning champions, at least it has developed that way. I'm not sure what other race could be added to help. I guess a dirt mile could help somewhere, but now way a 5f turf sprint, or marathon race, or 2yo turf race, is going to add much.

[Tom]

The hell with champions - who cares?
If anything, the BC has crowned more one race willies in the past than champions.
Let's have some betting races.

[Cesario!]

I agree with the idea of the 5f turf sprint -- these are great races, for fans and for bettors.

[robert99]

More turf races from 5f to 2 miles would certainly help make for more international competition from Britain and France as well as increase spectator interest. We can put up with the tight tracks. Attracting a worldwide audience to top racing is what the Breeders Cup should aim to do as a priority.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I'm not so big on a turf sprint or a mile on dirt but I would love to see a juvenile turf at 1/16th and a 2m turf for stayers
_
Did you mean 1 1/16th or are you thinking of a 1/16th race for "The Green Monkey"?LOL!!

[Zman179]

Don't know about another race, but it'll definitely get another voice.

[Tee]

Yeah add a couple more races to the Breeders Cup card. Make the day even longer & more unbearable than it is currently.

[Tom]

Tee, it goes without saying we would replace Muttonchops with the new race! :lol:

[Tee]

Tee, it goes without saying we would replace Muttonchops with the new race! :lol:

Sounds good to me Tom!! :D

[Pgh. Gere]

If they did add a 5 F Turf and Mile Dirt race, would give us 9. Perfect, start with the Juvenile fillies as the first race. No preliminiaries and have the BC races be the only ones in the country for that day.

[rrpic6]

If they did add a 5 F Turf and Mile Dirt race, would give us 9. Perfect, start with the Juvenile fillies as the first race. No preliminiaries and have the BC races be the only ones in the country for that day.

This is very feasible and I look for it to happen in the future since ESPN is now covering the BC. NBC can now have an all day Notre Dame-fest, which it has always wanted to do. They can show clips of Lou Holtz going to confession, Jerome Bettis getting second helpings of mashed potatoes at the pre game meal, Rudy giving motivational speeches to insurance salesmen. Everyone will be happy.

[Tom]

Heck, rr, why not move the whole ting to Thanksgiving Day. make a new tradition - turkey and racing. Footlball has had it to itself far too long!:lol:

[Indulto]

Would like to see 1-1/2m G1 on dirt 3-4 wks after BC – no additional entry fees required for any BC participant – as an HOTY championship/showcase.

If BC day Part II is the plan, I would NOT want a 2m (T) to cannibalize the preceding. I WOULD be interested in seeing (in order of preference):

1-1/16m (T) 2YO c/g/f

1-1/16m on dirt (open) (2 turns)

7f on dirt (open)

1-1/8m (T) (open)

6f (T) (open)

[Walter]

Any of you guys know of where I can get some stats/book on the Breeders Cup.e.g. The Classic has been decided by a length in 10 running (I only have access of stats up to 2000)..3 year olds have won 7 times, etc,etc, Many Thanks in advance.

[cj]

Any of you guys know of where I can get some stats/book on the Breeders Cup.e.g. The Classic has been decided by a length in 10 running (I only have access of stats up to 2000)..3 year olds have won 7 times, etc,etc, Many Thanks in advance.

Jim Mazur puts out a book each year "Crushing the Cup".

Here is his site: http://www.proghandicap.com

A link to the book: https://www.amerisurf.com/cgi-bin/proghandicap/cart.pl?IT=10100

[Valuist]

I wouldn't mind seeing a mile or mile and a 1/16th on the dirt added. But no more sprints.

[ponyplayerdotca]

I would add 2 races to the 8 we have now (listed below), to give the BREEDERS' CUP an even 10 races on the day:

Two new races:

DIRT MILE - 1 mile DIRT

TURF SPRINT - 5 furlongs TURF

Eight races already scheduled:

SPRINT - 6 f DIRT

JUVENILE FILLIES - 1 1/16 miles DIRT

JUVENILE - 1 1/16 miles DIRT

MILE - 1 mile TURF

DISTAFF - 1 1/8 miles DIRT

TURF - 1 1/2 miles TURF

CLASSIC - 1 1/4 miles DIRT

FILLY & MARE TURF - 1 3/8 TURF

This would give us 6 dirt races and 4 turf races total. There would be no other races on the card as there has always been in the past.

There would be three races dedicated to fillies/mares, with both sprint races also seeing their share of F & M entering as well (as has happened in years past).

That should allow for horses of any discipline to find a suitable race to enter on the day. The only stipulation I would have is to restrict the number of entrants in both sprint races to just 10 horses. Other than that, have at it.

PGH GERE brings up a good point too - no other horse racing on that day. Have the entire horseplayer world wagering on those 8-10 races only, and every other track in North America have the simulcast without live racing for that one day.

If the whole world can watch just one SUPER BOWL on a given Sunday once a year, then only one 10-race card of horse racing shouldn't be too hard to follow suit. But we all know that will never happen.

[Valuist]

I would add 2 races to the 8 we have now (listed below), to give the BREEDERS' CUP an even 10 races on the day:

Two new races:

DIRT MILE - 1 mile DIRT

TURF SPRINT - 5 furlongs TURF

Eight races already scheduled:

SPRINT - 6 f DIRT

JUVENILE FILLIES - 1 1/16 miles DIRT

JUVENILE - 1 1/16 miles DIRT

MILE - 1 mile TURF

DISTAFF - 1 1/8 miles DIRT

TURF - 1 1/2 miles TURF

CLASSIC - 1 1/4 miles DIRT

FILLY & MARE TURF - 1 3/8 TURF

This would give us 6 dirt races and 4 turf races total. There would be no other races on the card as there has always been in the past.

There would be three races dedicated to fillies/mares, with both sprint races also seeing their share of F & M entering as well (as has happened in years past).

That should allow for horses of any discipline to find a suitable race to enter on the day. The only stipulation I would have is to restrict the number of entrants in both sprint races to just 10 horses. Other than that, have at it.

PGH GERE brings up a good point too - no other horse racing on that day. Have the entire horseplayer world wagering on those 8-10 races only, and every other track in North America have the simulcast without live racing for that one day.

If the whole world can watch just one SUPER BOWL on a given Sunday once a year, then only one 10-race card of horse racing shouldn't be too hard to follow suit. But we all know that will never happen.

Why would you want to eliminate all other racing for the day? You finally get a day with the general public as a captive audience. Why not take advantage of it? As players, we want as many opportunities to play against the general public, and the tracks themselves know they are sitting on much larger than normal handles. I don't agree w/the Super Bowl analogy. Like it or not, horse racing isn't close to the NFL in popularity.

[ryesteve]

If the whole world can watch just one SUPER BOWL on a given Sunday once a year, then only one 10-race card of horse racing shouldn't be too hard to follow suit. But we all know that will never happen.
The problem is that the Super Bowl gives you a snap every 30 seconds. Most horseplayers don't have the patience to sit for 30 minutes without doing something. Personally, I don't do any other betting on BC day... I don't want the distractions, and just want to enjoy the day for what it is. But I get the feeling I'm in the minority, so it'd be economic suicide for the tracks to do this.

[Indulto]

... PGH GERE brings up a good point too - no other horse racing on that day. Have the entire horseplayer world wagering on those 8-10 races only, and every other track in North America have the simulcast without live racing for that one day.

If the whole world can watch just one SUPER BOWL on a given Sunday once a year, then only one 10-race card of horse racing shouldn't be too hard to follow suit. But we all know that will never happen.PPDC,
IMO the goal should be that "the entire horseplayer world" should be enabled to view and wager on those 8-10 races in order to achieve maximun exposure and handle. That might require unlimited internet wagering access, lower minimum wagers, and commercial network broadcasting.

If full home access becomes avaiable, how will tracks compete for that simulcast business without offering additional live racing? How does the occurrence of additional live racing on that date affect your your enjoyment from and entertainment by the BC events?

I know the DRF is sometimes referred to as "The Bible" and that for some of us racing is a religion, but just how sacred are those events and why are they deserving of worship? ;)

[ponyplayerdotca]

Horse racing fan asks:
"Did you just see that great finish to the Classic when TIZNOW edged GIANT'S CAUSEWAY?"

Horseplayer replies:
"No, I just watched my pick-3 go down the drain in a nickel claimer at Timonium. Why, what race are you talking about?"

For one day a year, horseplayers can't be satisfied with just 10 races to wager on?

I know it's nowhere near realistic, but it's what I like to see from a purely selfish, historical view. It'll never happen because to those that profit off horse racing, BC day is just another day of the year to wager.

===

"How does the occurrence of additional live racing on that date affect your your enjoyment from and entertainment by the BC events?" posted by INDULTO

If the fans of horse racing don't even want to give special attention to one day annually as the "best of the best" face each other, then why have the BC at all? What's the point of having ten big stakes races if there's no special focus on them apart from the routine? They're just 10 more races at that point, aren't they?

If no one cares enough to break their regular routine for one day of collective attention and celebration, then just don't have any special days for racing at all. Forget about pagaentry, and focus purely on profit.

===

"If full home access becomes available, how will tracks compete for that simulcast business without offering additional live racing?" posted by INDULTO

Local tracks also have off days for live racing during the week. Why can't they all just make that Saturday one of that week's days off?

===

"Why would you want to eliminate all other racing for the day? You finally get a day with the general public as a captive audience. Why not take advantage of it?" posted by VALUIST

The general public would be a captive audience primarily for the BC races, not the regular races offered at local tracks, no? They'd be interested in horse racing for that day because of the BC. So, if they don't have an effect on the other local racing, what advantage is it to you or other regular horseplayers? You want the lemmings to throw their money away on the BC races don't you (to elevate your prices)?

===

"I don't agree w/the Super Bowl analogy. Like it or not, horse racing isn't close to the NFL in popularity." posted by VALUIST

The Super Bowl analogy wasn't meant to compare popularity. It was meant to isolate the showing of one event that everyone interested would watch simultaneously.

It would be great if everyone were watching just those races, enjoying them, and talking about them for the next year to come until the next BC without any distraction.

From a horseplayer's point of view, most people only have so much money to wager any given day. I'd prefer they have to wager on those 10 races so they could maintain their personal interest in watching the BC instead of losing interest in some of those races because they've blown their wad on some preliminary low claimers at a "B" track. You can do that any day of the week. (see the opening Q & A to review)

===

[Indulto]

For one day a year, horseplayers can't be satisfied with just 10 races to wager on?

I know it's nowhere near realistic, but it's what I like to see from a purely selfish, historical view. It'll never happen because to those that profit off horse racing, BC day is just another day of the year to wager.

... If the fans of horse racing don't even want to give special attention to one day annually as the "best of the best" face each other, then why have the BC at all? What's the point of having ten big stakes races if there's no special focus on them apart from the routine? They're just 10 more races at that point, aren't they?

... If no one cares enough to break their regular routine for one day of collective attention and celebration, then just don't have any special days for racing at all. Forget about pagaentry, and focus purely on profit.

... Local tracks also have off days for live racing during the week. Why can't they all just make that Saturday one of that week's days off?

... The Super Bowl analogy wasn't meant to compare popularity. It was meant to isolate the showing of one event that everyone interested would watch simultaneously.

It would be great if everyone were watching just those races, enjoying them, and talking about them for the next year to come until the next BC without any distraction.

From a horseplayer's point of view, most people only have so much money to wager any given day. I'd prefer they have to wager on those 10 races so they could maintain their personal interest in watching the BC instead of losing interest in some of those races because they've blown their wad on some preliminary low claimers at a "B" track. You can do that any day of the week.PPDC,
Even though each BC event is intended to showcase racing's finest, it does so by division not all of which compete against eachother like NFL teams. Also, it doesn't always culminate in a competitive contest, although the Mile, Sprint, and Classic usually are -- at least on paper. Year long discussions will only concern those events involving exciting finishes and/or mindbending performances.

But I am fascinated by and favor your fervor for focus. Perhaps it is the BC that should be held on OFF DAYS, but in PRIME TIME. Suppose it were run on three consecutive evenings, each featuring a Pick 3. A Pick Six would include all races for the last 2 days. There could be a place pick all on all 9 races. Pick 4s could include the 1st 4 races televised, the 2nd 4 races televised, and perhaps a huge guaranteed Pick 4 including the open races: Sprint, Mile, Turf, and Classic.

Evening 1:
Juv Fillies
Distaff
Juv. Turf (New)

Evening 2:
Sprint
Mile
F&M Turf

Evening 3:
Juvenile
Turf
Classic

Is it not reasonable to assume that the total handle over 3 evenings would surpass that accumlated for the same races in the course of a single day? Races could even be held at multiple venues, as necessary.

[CryingForTheHorses]

The Breeders Cup Fund is a great thing. At birth you nominate your horse for these races. Races all over the country are BCF everyday.A lot of people dont know that.I think these horses that win BCF races all over the country but arent good enough for the big day. They should have a race for these horses that are "just" below the big horses. It would give those horses a chance to shine.

[maxwell]

I would love to see a 6f. turf race added to the card. I don't care for the juvenile races - not part of the pick 6. :D

[cj]

I would love to see a 6f. turf race added to the card. I don't care for the juvenile races - not part of the pick 6. :D

Very few tracks are even capable of running 6f on the grass. SA, Bel, WO that I can think of off the top of my head.

[LaughAndBeMerry]

How about the "Hay and Oats Classic"? 9 or 10F on the dirt, ALL entrants subject to a rigorous battery of tests administered by the US Olympic Testing guys. Anything other than hay, oats and water and you can't run.

I just don't know how many fans would bet on a 3 horse race.

[Valuist]

How about the "Hay and Oats Classic"? 9 or 10F on the dirt, ALL entrants subject to a rigorous battery of tests administered by the US Olympic Testing guys. Anything other than hay, oats and water and you can't run.

I just don't know how many fans would bet on a 3 horse race.


We can call it the BALCO Classic or maybe the Barry Bonds Handicap

[Wiley]

I just don't know how many fans would bet on a 3 horse race.
Oh this race would fill but only with Euros, Aussies, Asian etc. based, just no American based horses could meet the requirement.

How about call it the Reinheitsgebot Derby - its the German term used for the 1516 beer purity law-only hops, barley, water and yeast allowed. Get Becks or Warsteiner to sponsor it. :)

[maxwell]

CJ,

You're right!

Most tracks in NA are designed for dirt ( soon to be poly ) races. Bel, WO, and AP are probably most like Euro tracks?

[PlanB]

Great idea to eliminate ALL other races on Breeder's Cup Day. Also, why
not have 2 Breeder's Cup per year, not just one.

[TravisVOX]

I don't think a turf sprint is necessary. However, a sprint for fillies and mares would be an interesting addition. Simply put, we've given them a route race, a turf race and a juvenile race. All that is left is a 6 furlong race, and given the popularity of female sprints (see Calder, Spa etc.), they would do okay.

A horse like Dubai Escapade will be sitting out the BC... she should be a part.

[ryesteve]

A horse like Dubai Escapade will be sitting out the BC... she should be a part.
Then let her run in the Sprint. Talented fillies have done just fine vs. males when given the chance.

[fouroneone]

how about 800 yards?

hold the breeders cup at los alamitos in 08!

[Tom]

OK then, we add one more race - 800 yards, fillies and mares, on the turf!
Anyone want hurdles with that? :p

[betchatoo]

I'd love to see 10 races in the Cup and no other racing that day, sort of like the All-Star game in baseball.

I would add a turf sprint (5.5 or 6 furlongs). A 7 furlong dirt race (love that specialty distance. So many horses just aren't good at it. And a mile dirt race.

[Valuist]

If they keep adding Polytrack, I wouldn't be shocked if they had an all-weather race to be run in a separate location, kind of like with the Steeplchase. Probably would interest the Europeans. And we just might get to hear "GAINING GROUND up from the OUTSIDE,.....they're NEARING THE WIRE and its Dylan Thomas in front.

[maxwell]

Never mind another race. what about turning the BC Day over to the track that is hosting the event? A lot of tracks are losing interest because they are relegated to observer status. The BC corp. wants to call all the shots.

I'm sure Woodbine or AP would host the big day again if the BC corp. stayed out of their hair. The loss of space at WO due to the slots is not a big deal but they use it as an out so they don't have to deal with the BC bigwigs who, no doubt, would love a cut of the slots pie.

[Bubbles]

I'd add a race in an often-overlooked division. 6f on the dirt for fillies and mares 3+. Sure, every now and then you get a Safely Kept or an Xtra Heat that can run very well against the boys. But why not give them their own race, and their own spot to shine?

[Indulto]

I'd add a race in an often-overlooked division. 6f on the dirt for fillies and mares 3+. Sure, every now and then you get a Safely Kept or an Xtra Heat that can run very well against the boys. But why not give them their own race, and their own spot to shine?The Sprint and the Mile always seem to be competitive and least likely to be won by the favorite. The fact that the ladies are competitive in those events suggests that any incentive not to run them there would lower the quality of those fields. I'm looking forward to watching Gorella in this year's mile.

The most glaring deficiency IMO is an absence of a turf race for 2YOs. Does anyone know whether 2YO fillies are competitive with their male counterparts on any surface?

[DrugSalvastore]

I'm not for adding a dirt race at a mile---because I think it will soften up the quality of the fields for both the Sprint and the Classic.

Turf sprints don't do anything for me either.

I believe a Breeders Cup Starter Allowance race, with a $500,000 purse, run at the distance of a mile on dirt, would be an absolutley fantastic betting race, that will over-flow with entries.

You would get a 14 horse field loaded with runners in razor sharp form, shipping in from all different regions of the country. The one mile distance would help create a fascinating dynamic, because many in the field will likely be sprint specialists who may find the distance just a bit too far for their liking. And, several others in the field will likely be two-turn routing specialists who may possibly struggle in a very sharply paced one-mile race.

In my opinion, either you leave it the way it is or you add a Starter Alw race to start off the card.

[DrugSalvastore]

I'd add a race in an often-overlooked division. 6f on the dirt for fillies and mares 3+. Sure, every now and then you get a Safely Kept or an Xtra Heat that can run very well against the boys. But why not give them their own race, and their own spot to shine?

I honestly don't agree.

Fillies and mares have done fantastic in the Breeders Cup Sprint from rather limited oppertunites.

They have 3 wins (Very Subtle, Safely Kept, and Desert Stormer) and 7 second place finishes. Had Desert Stormer not been included in the "field" for betting purposes, she certainly would have been the longest shot on the board the year she won.

In a 10 year span from 1986-through-1995 a filly or mare finished 1st or 2nd in the Breeders Cup Sprint 8 different years.

Meafara ran 2nd in this race twice in a row. Soviet Problems, Xtra Heat, and Pine Tree Lane ran competitve 2nds. Honest Lady narrowly ran down Kona Gold late in his track record setting win in 2000.

I think a few other female sprinters could have been very dangerous if given an oppertunity to run in this race, and the record be even better.

[jetermvpbaby]

I don't like 5 furlong races to determine anything because the start of the race is the end of the race. Top notch horses who break well are going to go all the way, you are NOT coming from 10 lengths back.

A 5 furlong race is like a coin flip, the only thing it determines is which horse was able to get out of the gate the fastest....that has no bearing on who the actual best horse happens to be.

If there was a 1 mile race for 3 and up, that would make the Classic thin because a few of the horses who were GOING to compete in the Classic would opt to this race instead, i'm never for watering down the Classic.

Another race would water down any division, but what about a 1 mile race for 2 year olds on the turf? Or, i think the other option would be a 7 furlong sprint (sorry Monmouth). I feel there's probably enough sprinters to go around that the Sprint and the Elongated Sprint would fill nicely and create great betting races.

Every year, there's a bunch of horses entered in the sprint who would LOVE that race to be an extra furlong.