Polytrack at Woodbine

[cj]

Debuts Wednesday

[BIG49010]

I used to play that track daily, and gave up on it this year. What are some of the things we should look for with poly, I get full T.V. coverage here of it?

I can report, if I see a bias or some strangeness happening.

[Valuist]

On the Turfway polytrack, the Storm Cat line and his sons seem to be the preferred bloodlines. In particular, offspring of Catienus seem to move up on it. TVG keeps saying turf breeding is key but that's not really true. The top sires so far seem to be equally good at getting dirt and turf runners. Of course, there isn't a whole lot of data yet but it doesn't hurt to be one step ahead of the public.

It'll be interesting to see if WO has problems with kickback, like TP did. You could win on the lead on the inside or you could win closing widest. Ground loss doesn't seem to matter much, as long as the horse isn't getting Polytrack particles kicked in its face.

[46zilzal]

only opened for works on Saturday. Going to stay away until the crew figures out how to maintain it.

[kenwoodallpromos]

What looks interesting to me on the workout lists is that a number of horses seem to be working quickly- much faster than the early works I remember at TP.
Also at all distances the horses working out seem to be running times close together for that distance- most running within 2 seconds of each other.
For racing's sake I'm hoping that means the pars will hold up decent. I think if the fractions start looking good in the non-claiming races, using TP as a model may not work as well!
Maybe someone here who knows how Woodbine trainers work their horses can keep an eye out!

[maxwell]

TP has added a "new and improved" mixture of poly - supposed to reduce the cupping some folks have been complaining about.

This stuff looks strange yet pleasing to the eye. They sort of harrow it and pat it back in place with rollers that have little paddles - it kind of looks like rows of small waves. Even a hard rain has no affect on it!

Makes sense to me.

[ponyplayerdotca]

On the local news video from Saturday night (after the morning workouts were shot by the media), you could see a lot of kickback from the low-angle cameras of oncoming horses galloping.

The inherent problems Turfway Park had will almost definitely be the same at Woodbine until the local maintenance crew figures out how to keep the track consistent.

As far as quicker workout times than those from Turfway Park, that must be partially due to the more expensive stock that is housed at WO. My initial prediction is that as at Turfway, all the finish times at WO will be 1-2 seconds slower than what they're used to at the outset.

I haven't played the track all year and won't play it anymore now that they aren't racing on real dirt. Turf racing is the exception to that stance.

[nativenova]

According to Woodbine website the workouts seem to be on par like the main track has been so far. Quite fascinating I live near woodbine and to see the resurfacing was quite something .about a week ago I saw it ,almost looked like a paved parking lot.not sure if it is going to stay that way or substance to be added ,either way I will be there Wednesday night,so I may wear a dust mask for all the chalk flying?

[nativenova]

Eighty-four horses held timed workouts yesterday and Chris Evans, Woodbine's vice-president of thoroughbred racing, said the track seemed to be producing the same times as the traditional main track had in the past.

[BIG49010]

Watching the races from tonight, the Poly at Woodbine looks very different from that at Turfway. I would say it had a slight speed bias, and Woodbine didn't normally play to earily speed. It appears to be packed much tighter than Turfway, with less kickback.

[46zilzal]

Watching the races from tonight, the Poly at Woodbine looks very different from that at Turfway. I would say it had a slight speed bias, and Woodbine didn't normally play to earily speed.
doesn't play early??? Are you looking at the same track I am? There is only ONE earlier: inner Winter Aqueduct.

Also, being brand spanking new, the characteristics of a single card (track mainatinence team are still rookies) cannot be relied upon.

[BIG49010]

Sorry, I won't make any observations!:bang:

[ponyplayerdotca]

I thought the run times at Turfway Park last fall/winter on the Polytrack were marginally slower than they had been on their previous dirt track (my perception).

So, I watched the races from Woodbine on computer and TV last night, and decided to use a stopwatch for each race to test the times on the Polytrack.

I had heard that Woodbine may have been having timing irregularities when they had to move their interval sensors from the main track to the inner dirt track during the summer (don't know if this is true or not, but it's the info I have).

I timed the first race on the new Polytrack (1 1/16 miles) on the internet. My stopwatch clicked off and showed a final time of 1:48.34. The official time of the race listed by the track was 1:45.43.

Now, I know that I wasn't going to get an exact match with such an unscientific experiment, but 3 full seconds difference in time? I thought there's no way I was that far off.

So, I watched the replay. I used their time-of-day timecode present in the signal (screen bottom right). The race started at 19:02:20pm (or 7:02:20pm). When DEMI SONG hit the wire, the TOD T/C read 19:04:08pm. That is 1:48 roughly for the race, not 1:45.

I did the same for race 2, the only turf race on the card (eliminating the Polytrack as a variant). I stopwatched the 7f sprint in 1:24.41. The posted official time was 1:21.73. Again, it was almost a full three second difference.

I watched the replay again, using the TOD T/C. The race ran closer to 1:24, not 1:21 (according to that).

I did it one last time for race 3 (1 1/16 miles on the Polytrack). I stopwatched the final time at 1:21.83. The official time listed was 1:19.56.

So, I am wondering if they are still having timing irregularities with the switch back to the outer main track (now Polytrack)?

I post this hoping someone else out there smarter than me can do some similar tests and see if there are big discrepencies as I think there might be.

Again, I know my stopwatch test isn't going to be dead accurate. But I don't think I was a full 2-3 seconds off in my approach either.

Please check for yourself with today's card or this weekend and post your results.

Thanks for the help. :ThmbUp:

[Show Me the Wire]

The way I understand your post is that you are timing from the start of the race, meaning as soon as the starting gates open. Is that true?

If so there are such timing dispcrepencies due to the run-up.

[ponyplayerdotca]

I started my stopwatch as soon as I saw the first horse's head (or heads) become visible from the gate. So, yes, I suppose "as the gates opened" is correct.

Again, I don't think my times are gospel or anything. I'm just hoping there isn't any problem with the official times now that they've changed surfaces and are actively promoting it. This is why I asked if others out there could see if they notice any kind of large discrepancies.

Whether the Polytrack times are holding up to the satisfaction of trainers, management, and horseplayers is part of developing a stance as to whether or not it's good for business.

Let me know if you find anything noteworthy. Cheers! :ThmbUp:

[Show Me the Wire]

ponyplayerdotca:

My point is there is a big difference in official race time and in gate time. I think it is even more exagerted the longer the distance.

Your measurement will not address the concern of offical times being affected due to the change of the surface, since you do not know the run-up descrepency based on the previous dirt surface.

Nothing wrong in timing from the gate, one of the big selling points of sheet type speed figures, just in this instance it will not address your concern.

[46zilzal]

agree. The run up varies wildly by distance. One has to time from their sensor to report discrepancies.

[ponyplayerdotca]

Thank you ShowMe and 46. I understand now, and appreciate the feedback. Cheers.

[cj]

Whether you are for, against, or don't care about polytrack, it sure looks like it is a completely different surface than dirt. The races are run a lot differently.

Though the sample is small of course thus far, winners are running noticably slower to the pace call at WO thus far on the polytrack:

6f = .59 seconds slower
6.5f = .81 seconds slower
1m70y = 1.47 seconds slower
1m1/16 = 1.39 seconds slower

I'll keep posted as the samples get bigger.

[bigmack]

In six days of racing there have been 4 races that have gone wire2wire

[BillW]

In six days of racing there have been 4 races that have gone wire2wire

Actually only 2 - the other 2 were on turf :)

34 Total races processed
Track Data Report

# avg Fav. W-W. Ave. Ave. Win % by Odds Range
Type Races Field Wins Wins Odds Purse <2:1 2-5 5-10 10-20 >20:1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All 34 9.82 26% 12% 8.10 $ 49806 15% 35% 24% 15% 12%
Fast Track 31 9.87 29% 6% 7.75 $ 45126 16% 39% 23% 10% 13%
Off Track 3 9.33 0% 67% 11.73 $ 98167 0% 0% 33% 67% 0%
Synthetic-Fast 27 9.52 26% 7% 8.35 $ 43937 19% 33% 22% 11% 15%
Turf-Fast 4 12.25 50% 0% 3.69 $ 53150 0% 75% 25% 0% 0%
Turf-Off 3 9.33 0% 67% 11.73 $ 98167 0% 0% 33% 67% 0%
Synthetic Routes 8 9.00 38% 0% 3.59 $ 55062 25% 50% 25% 0% 0%
Synthetic Sprints 19 9.74 21% 11% 10.35 $ 39253 16% 26% 21% 16% 21%
Turf Routes 3 9.33 0% 67% 11.73 $ 98167 0% 0% 33% 67% 0%
Turf Sprints 4 12.25 50% 0% 3.69 $ 53150 0% 75% 25% 0% 0%
Males 17 9.24 29% 12% 6.26 $ 49594 18% 47% 24% 6% 6%
Females 17 10.41 24% 12% 9.94 $ 50018 12% 24% 24% 24% 18%
2 YO 7 11.00 43% 14% 9.14 $ 50400 14% 43% 14% 0% 29%
3 YO 6 8.67 0% 33% 9.25 $ 80600 0% 33% 33% 33% 0%
3 YO & up 21 9.76 29% 5% 7.42 $ 40810 19% 33% 24% 14% 10%
non-Gr Stk 3 9.67 0% 67% 9.15 $125000 0% 33% 33% 33% 0%
Alw 5 9.60 20% 0% 5.27 $ 53920 40% 20% 20% 20% 0%
Opt. Clm 2 8.00 50% 0% 1.98 $ 70150 50% 50% 0% 0% 0%
Claiming 12 8.83 33% 8% 8.75 $ 34217 8% 42% 25% 8% 17%
MSW 6 11.83 33% 17% 8.32 $ 62000 17% 33% 17% 17% 17%
MdnClm 6 10.67 17% 0% 10.42 $ 20983 0% 33% 33% 17% 17%

[BIG49010]

Did you hear the new call, It's a poly track puzzler at 30-1.:lol:

[rrbauer]

The post by BillW showing the stats from Woodbine made me realize that there will be a lot of computer-based analysis and reports that will require updates to handle the new surface categories.....Synthetic Sprints, Synthetic Routes, etc.

Although the tracks that currently utilize the new surfaces aren't ones that I play, with Keeneland and SoCal coming online this fall, guess I'd better go visit some source code!

[bigmack]

The track 2 track variant is now officially kittywompis

[Pgh. Gere]

CJ ?

The times you posted were for the pace call, have the final times slowed as well or stayed about the same?

Those are some significant differences at the pace call.

[Tom]

The track 2 track variant is now officially kittywompis

No woner I'm losing - I've been using puppyglopis :mad:

[cj]

CJ ?

The times you posted were for the pace call, have the final times slowed as well or stayed about the same?

Those are some significant differences at the pace call.

To be honest, I haven't looked into that part of it. I look at the percentage of the final time the winner takes to get to the pace call. For example, if a horse runs the half in 45 flat, and the finish is 1:10 flat, the horse took 45 / 70 or 64.29% of the race. That percentage is what has risen. I don't know about raw times, sorry.

[sjk]

Whether you are for, against, or don't care about polytrack, it sure looks like it is a completely different surface than dirt. The races are run a lot differently.



The first few days of the TP meet last fall the speed had no chance. After the track saw some use it began to look more like normal dirt racing.

After passing the fall meet I played the Winter/Spring Meet at TP as regular dirt racing with good results. Hopefully that will continue to hold up with the new synthetic tracks since I only play dirt races and would hate to lose the action.

[JustRalph]

I wonder what the hell Keeneland is going to be like...........

I read that it is done. They are not planning any practice races........but they have a month to workout on it..........

[Tom]

They redid the turf course too, dind't they?
Changed the turns on the main as well.
Whole new ballgame.

[Pgh. Gere]

CJ-thanks for the follow up.

Have they finished installing everything, I saw where they were not carding 7furlong races yet. Maintenance crew still hard more work to do on the track.