View Full Version : Henny Hughes vs. Discreet Cat
Bubbles
08-26-2006, 05:53 PM
Two awesome 7f performances. Which, IYHO, was better, and why?
xfile
08-26-2006, 05:58 PM
Henny still has a few more gears left that he hasn't used yet. :cool:
joeyspicks
08-26-2006, 06:03 PM
I didnt see Discreet Cat (whom I love)
but hard to beat Henny's race....making the pace at 44 and change.....and pulling away
pjbc77
08-26-2006, 07:56 PM
Have to go with Henny, it was an impressive race. For what it's worth, nyra.com has Henny clocked 1:21.96 and Discreet Cat at 1:21.95.
Bubbles
08-26-2006, 08:46 PM
That's very strange. I was there, the TV's were showing 1:21.57 when DC crossed the wire.
I voted for Discreet Cat. He didn't beat the field HH did, but there were some solid horses there. A graded stakes-winner from Argentina made the trip, and other horses that had won fairly high-class races were entered. It looked like an overnight stakes. Hardly the G1 that HH strolled home in, but you gotta think that if DC is urged, he threatens Darby Creek Road's track record of 1:20 and change. Sure, Henny Hughes was a few lengths within himself. But look at Gomez in the stirrups on Discreet Cat. He didn't lunge forward ONCE. Talk about not showing a lot of gears, he was in first gear all around the track!
pjbc77
08-26-2006, 09:03 PM
My mistake, I was looking at High Finance's 7F time today. They have Discreet Cat at 1:21.53. Will be interested to see the Beyers on this, and also where they point Discreet Cat.
DrugSalvastore
08-26-2006, 11:30 PM
Discreet Cat has more raw talent than Henny Hughes....and will run much further.
The sneaky sprinter to keep an eye out for might be High Finance.
The last two times High Finance has run seven furlongs, he's not only won impressively, but he's actually been impressive against the clock.
He went an identical final time as Sun King when he broke his maiden, same distance, same card. Since that race, Sun King has three 2nd's in stake races, including photo finish losses to older sprint leader Silver Train & older Eastern handicap division leader Invasor. Both of those photo finish losses came in important Gr. 1 races (Met Mile & Whitney)
Today, High Finance ran 0.01 seconds faster than Henny Hughes did in his blowout in the Grade 1 King's Bishop on the same card.
In between these two giant seven furlong races, High Finance won an ALW at a mile with a triple digit figure inspite of breaking through the gate prior to the start. His other race was in the Belmont Stakes, where he was rated behind a fast pace, and was virtually eased.
If ever a horse had no business running in the Belmont Stakes--it's this one. He has pure sprint breeding top and bottom...his dam is a sibling to brilliant need-the-lead sprinter Five Star Day, and his sire is best remembered for stopping on a dime with about a half mile to go in the 2001 KY Derby.
This is the kind of horse who might not find it so easy when he faces faster paced and more quality laced fields....however, he's got some talent sprinting, and had he run in the King's Bishop today...he'd have made Henny Hughes earn it.
Stevie Belmont
08-27-2006, 01:03 AM
How do you know who has more raw talent?
Henny Hughes would have blown High Finances doors off.
DrugSalvastore
08-27-2006, 01:35 AM
How do you know who has more raw talent?
Henny Hughes would have blown High Finances doors off.
And how do you know that?
Pretty amusing!
I agree, even though High Finance was a nose faster on the clock, he didn't run quite as well.
Both had sweet trips, and beat fields with one or two pretty decent horses, and a whole lot of filth in them.
Off this race, and his win over a laughably bad field at Monmouth, on a day when 5 of 7 dirt races were won wire-to-wire....I think Henny Hughes is starting to become a touch overrated.
His Jersey win this year was very similar to Lost In The Fog's Calder win last year. It had a ton of style but pretty limited substance to it.
Think back to a sprinter like Caller One when he was three---he had way more raw speed than horses like Henny Hughes and Lost In The Fog did at three, and he would still run as fast or faster figures.
I'd feel a lot more secure knocking Henny Hughes if the older sprinters didn't suck so bad again this year.
classhandicapper
08-27-2006, 10:23 AM
I would say that Henny probably ran the slightly superior race because he ran a much faster pace against much better opponents.
IMO, when a horse wins with as much in reserve as Discreet Cat it's hard to tell how much of it was that no one in the race had enough in ability to test him and how much was that his reserves are very deep. In Discreet Cat's case my guess is that his reserves are quite deep because he's been so highly regarded all along and has done nothing to indicate otherwise. So even though I think Henny probably ran the better race, I would take Discreet Cat even up.
the_fat_man
08-27-2006, 12:06 PM
Both had sweet trips, and beat fields with one or two pretty decent horses, and a whole lot of filth in them.
Off this race, and his win over a laughably bad field at Monmouth, on a day when 5 of 7 dirt races were won wire-to-wire....I think Henny Hughes is starting to become a touch overrated.
His Jersey win this year was very similar to Lost In The Fog's Calder win last year. It had a ton of style but pretty limited substance to it.
I'd feel a lot more secure knocking Henny Hughes if the older sprinters didn't suck so bad again this year.
I agree. HH beat a reasonable field in a 'drive'. 7F is about as far as he wants to go, notice his stride late, and a good 'older sprinter' beats him at that distance.
While not a DC fan, it's clear that he ran the better race, was comfortably in hand and can go alot further.
Which is not to say that HH probably won't win the BC sprint.
classhandicapper
08-27-2006, 12:59 PM
"While not a DC fan, it's clear that he ran the better race, was comfortably in hand and can go alot further."
I agree with you totally, but I would point out that it's easier to be in hand late when you just walked around the track against some outclassed rivals than it is when you just staked a 44 against other quality sprinters.
At a certain point, if you go fast enough early you simply aren't going to look very good in the last 70 yards even though you might be able to run further given an more average pace.
I think Henny proved last year in the BC juvenile that he can get a mile if the pace is reasonable. The pace of the BC race was not slow, it was an outside closer track, and it took a very good 2YO to run him down late.
the_fat_man
08-27-2006, 01:19 PM
I agree with you totally, but I would point out that it's easier to be in hand late when you just walked around the track against some outclassed rivals than it is when you just staked a 44 against other quality sprinters.
At a certain point, if you go fast enough early you simply aren't going to look very good in the last 70 yards even though you might be able to run further given an more average pace.
I think Henny proved last year in the BC juvenile that he can get a mile if the pace is reasonable. The pace of the BC race was not slow, it was an outside closer track, and it took a very good 2YO to run him down late.
Look, the only other 'quality sprinter' in the race was Songster ---and even that's arguable. (I was interested in how he'd run given the poor ride by Edgar in the Amsterdam.)
No discounting that the fast 2nd quarter took the starch out of the field, including Songster, who, in that sense, ran the 2nd best effort of all.
Can he get a mile? sure
Can he get a mile against top notch competition? No
As stated earlier, he'll probably win the BC sprint.
Watch the last stages of the race if you have the replay (especially the headon) --he's definitely shortening stride/tiring.
22.29, 44.62, 108.87, 121.96 fractions
22.29, 22.33, 24.25, 13.09 splits
I'd bet against him going 7 in a competitive field at Belmont.
Stevie Belmont
08-27-2006, 01:38 PM
Not for nothing, but comparing the two races is a bit ridiculous. Kind of like apples and oranges. If both horses flipped spots in races, the outcome would have been quite similar.
Although saying that is off base as well. Discreet Cat would have never run in that race off a layoff. He still might have won it, and maybe even easy. Do you think Henny would have worked at all in that field Dicreet Cat beat?
Too many differences. Discreet Cat was making his comeback race off a long layoff, while Henny Hughes was being pointed towards the Kings Bishop from way back. Henny galloped into a 44 with ease, and he had a solid final time. Say what you want about the field. Songter was creamed, and he is a damn good sprinter despite what anyone thinks. They got a good one into him. The bottom is far from being reached here. He will even tighter for the Vosburgh.
classhandicapper
08-27-2006, 04:13 PM
"I'd bet against him going 7 in a competitive field at Belmont."
Not for anything, but IMO yesterday's race was very competitive for 3YOs at this time of year.
I'd bet against him if I thought the other horses were better or if there was someone similar in the race who could rate nicely and he was going to be pressed into another 44.
I think how he finished yesterday tells us very little about whether he can get 7F or 8F against a better field. It will depend on who is in the race and how fast the pace is.
PlanB
08-27-2006, 04:34 PM
The DC vs HH vs Bernardini race would sell ~2 million tickets --- if the race
would be on the Net. (Just a Business idea). Its a great pace problem:
HH did 7fs, DC, 7fs, 10fs. Now I think we would all agree that Mr B would NOT
be in front with DC & HH but would he be in striking range? I think Mr B would
win.
I would think Henny would be slowing down a bit at the end - he ran a hell of lot faster ealry than DC did.
Back at Belmont, I think Henny (and others) wiill do better late - Sar was tiring this year.
PlanB
08-28-2006, 07:57 PM
Agreed, but if you didn't have some speed within striking range, you lost.
yet if you could make a make-believe fantasy race, past/present, what
would it be. We have 2 great TBs, DC & Bernardini, both 3yrs olds. They
just have to meet.
samyn on the green
08-28-2006, 11:11 PM
Had a great weekend upstate and I have to credit NYRA with staging some of best racing we have seen in a years. What separated this weekend of racing were the outstanding performances all concentrated in a few races. Like everyone else I was most impressed with the trio of HH, DC and Bernie.
Of the three I don't think Bernie ran his best race out this weekend, I think this guy may have room for improvement. He was a little wet in the post parade and even dumped Castellano in the PP. Thought Bernie lacked some composure pre-race, this is the only knock I could come up with. Even with that he ran huge and dominated the Travers on his own with ease. My only question with this guy is what if he had to rate? I know he has rated before but he just looked like a horse that wanted to be on the bit. The pre-race antics may leave him vulnerable if he ever finds a speed laced field and he fights whatever rating tactics castellano employs.
HH went 44 and 1/5 in hand against a field that was loaded with speed. This race shape was all the way against him and HH just dominated this GI field. HH was composed and calm in the paddock, muscles sculpted like a fine work of art, a real standout on the track and off. This is one serious sprinter, very impressed with him on and off the track. .
DC now this is the one that impressed the most on the track and off. This was the most impressive horse phiscally I have seen since Ghostzapper before the 2005 Met Mile. Calm, collected, muscled and cut like a fine work of art. . He looked like the Pegasus in the paddock. Then there was the race. Cruises up 4 wide under a hold and just blows this field away. Beating a field in hand is great, it happens every now and then. The thing that sets DC aside from any other racehorse I have ever seen is his stride. This will not show up in the numbers but it something you need to see for yourself through the binocs. DC's stride is an absolutely phenomenal perfect creation of god’s best work. His stride is just beautiful, it is balanced, and fluid and he does it so easy. Through the binocs it appears that DC is galloping at a tepid pace but looks are deceiving with this guy. His stride is so fluid and he just glides over the dirt with a high rate of speed. If they can keep this guy together this horse will absolutely dominate the Dubai World Cup and I can say with confidence that this is what the conx are pointing towards.
Wiley
08-29-2006, 12:14 AM
DC now this is the one that impressed the most on the track and off. This was the most impressive horse phiscally I have seen since Ghostzapper before the 2005 Met Mile. Calm, collected, muscled and cut like a fine work of art. . He looked like the Pegasus in the paddock. Then there was the race. Cruises up 4 wide under a hold and just blows this field away. Beating a field in hand is great, it happens every now and then. The thing that sets DC aside from any other racehorse I have ever seen is his stride. This will not show up in the numbers but it something you need to see for yourself through the binocs. DC's stride is an absolutely phenomenal perfect creation of god’s best work. His stride is just beautiful, it is balanced, and fluid and he does it so easy. Through the binocs it appears that DC is galloping at a tepid pace but looks are deceiving with this guy. His stride is so fluid and he just glides over the dirt with a high rate of speed. If they can keep this guy together this horse will absolutely dominate the Dubai World Cup and I can say with confidence that this is what the conx are pointing towards.
SOTG,
Great post.
I was there Friday and Saturday on the rail near the top of the stretch and agree 100% on your evaluation of these three amazing horses. Discreet Cat is a freak. The ease in his victory was phenomenal and your call on his balance and fluid stride are right on. The way he moved up on his own four wide to circle horses and draw off on his own was inspiring. He is a physically amazing specimen and he looked tops of the three -from paddock to warm up to race. When he went by me on the turn for home Gomez was looking around like I cannot believe how easy this is.
Trainer said DC is not nearly fully cranked - first race back and all and when he is it will take a monster effort to beat him under a mile and an eigth - a mile and a quarter might be beyond him pedigree wise but looking at the way he runs I hope they give him a shot in the Classic? maybe.
Bernardino looked to me also a cut below his appearance pre Preakness and Jim Dandy - though he by no means looked poor just not as physically brillant as in those two races. When he tossed Castellano in the warm up I got a twinge of shades of Barbaro concern but he ran a great race easily putting away the field as he pleased.
Henny Hughes was used early to get position given his inner post and tracked a fairly fast pace and drew off. Looked great physically and will be a major force for the BC sprint.
It is a great time to be a racing fan with these three around.
xfile
08-29-2006, 07:23 AM
I would think Henny would be slowing down a bit at the end - he ran a hell of lot faster ealry than DC did.
Back at Belmont, I think Henny (and others) wiill do better late - Sar was tiring this year.
Henny doesn't slow down sprinting. He stays on the engine. There is no horse that can out-sprint him this year as long as he stays healthy.
ghostyapper
08-29-2006, 09:17 AM
Discreet cat earned a 112 beyer. Henny was less than 110, not sure what the exact was.
Interesting that dubai escapade beat them both with a 115 beyer. I will never understand those numbers.
Henny doesn't slow down sprinting. He stays on the engine. There is no horse that can out-sprint him this year as long as he stays healthy.
They ALL slow down - just some more than others. HH ran a 13 last eight - not your best effort generally. The fact that he ran one of the top two 7 fulong pace times of the meet is a plus for him - DC ran much slower early than HH. It was no suprise DC ran such a fast final fraction - he hadn't done anything of note up until then.
Wiley
08-29-2006, 12:23 PM
DC ran much slower early than HH. It was no suprise DC ran such a fast final fraction - he hadn't done anything of note up until then.
A note that DC did run the majority of his race in the 5 to 6 path including the turn for home. Agree he did not run into the early pace HH did but ultra impressive nonetheless.
I did not get a sense of track bias over Thursday/Friday and Saturday, just superior horses winning impressively.
I've always been one that wanted to see what a horse can do instead of trying judge what may be "left in the tank".
HH showed me what he can do. That was impressive.
DC may have more but when have we seen it? The field wasn't that good.
The BC will be GREAT if they can all get there.
JPinMaryland
08-29-2006, 02:34 PM
One observation of HH. He did not change leads until well into the stretch. However, lest you think this is criticism, I cannot say that unless I hear from more experienced horsepeople.
He was accelerating hard on the turn before the homestretch and into the stretch. I cannot fault him for not switching leads as the turn straightened out as he looked to be fully extended. So its understandable I would think, although others may feel different.
How fast did Bernardini finish up? Did he get the last 1/2 mile in 49 sec? I think something like that. Seems very impressive to me but dont know Saratoga very well.
xfile
08-29-2006, 03:59 PM
They ALL slow down - just some more than others. HH ran a 13 last eight - not your best effort generally. The fact that he ran one of the top two 7 fulong pace times of the meet is a plus for him - DC ran much slower early than HH. It was no suprise DC ran such a fast final fraction - he hadn't done anything of note up until then.
Like I metioned in another quote - HH has a few more gears than he showed in that race. He speeds up when eyeballed. :cool:
Show me a race where he ran a faster late fraction than his first.
the_fat_man
08-29-2006, 05:50 PM
One observation of HH. He did not change leads until well into the stretch. However, lest you think this is criticism, I cannot say that unless I hear from more experienced horsepeople.
He was accelerating hard on the turn before the homestretch and into the stretch. I cannot fault him for not switching leads as the turn straightened out as he looked to be fully extended. So its understandable I would think, although others may feel different.
You want a perfect change immediately upon straighten out?
He changed just after they straightened (before hitting the first pole--whatever the designation).
classhandicapper
08-29-2006, 06:00 PM
the_fat_man,
I know your view about this horse at 7F and beyond, but what about his chances at 6F in the BC sprint?
the_fat_man
08-29-2006, 06:15 PM
the_fat_man,
I know your view about this horse at 7F and beyond, but what about his chances at 6F in the BC sprint?
I'm not up to speed with all the sprinters out there but
can you see this horse losing going 6F?
He rates, he explodes 2nd quarter, he coasts home.
I need FOOD :bang::bang:
PlanB
08-29-2006, 06:23 PM
And yet, HH lost twice to First Samauri, another speedball. In a way, its a
huge black mark. Maybe HH has seasoned, but what were to happen if he
could not dominate the early pace; that's why I think DC would beat him.
classhandicapper
08-29-2006, 06:27 PM
I'm not sure who is targetting the BC and who is not, but I don't think HH is a mortal lock if horses like Bordonaro, War Front, and Silver Train go. I think I read ST isn't going, but there's still a few races between now and then for someone new to emerge.
classhandicapper
08-29-2006, 06:29 PM
And yet, HH lost twice to First Samauri, another speedball. In a way, its a
huge black mark. Maybe HH has seasoned, but what were to happen if he
could not dominate the early pace; that's why I think DC would beat him.
I might be wrong, but I see it the other way around. I think this helps prove that First Samauri was an excellent 2YO that went bad this spring and/or didn't want to run further than 8F or so. He certainly looked like a good one to me last year.
the_fat_man
08-29-2006, 06:29 PM
And yet, HH lost twice to First Samauri, another speedball. In a way, its a
huge black mark. Maybe HH has seasoned, but what were to happen if he
could not dominate the early pace; that's why I think DC would beat him.
Hated FS in the Bluegrass (and earlier).
I liked HH over FS in the BC Juvenile --expected him to run better than FS.
I agree, DC buries him EASILY; but he's not running in the BC sprint.
What do you mean by 'dominate'?
What makes him dangerous is that he doesn't need the lead.
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