No more late odds drops?

[cj]

That will be the result, according to the company:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/77838.html

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34988

[BIG49010]

WANA BET:eek:

[bigmack]

They say this elsewhere:

Broader participation from numerous domestic and international pari-mutuel organizations will be standard procedure, beginning with a solicitation of comments and suggestions on Version 1.0 during the next five weeks.

Comments and proposed enhancements from interested parties concerning Version 1.0 should be submitted in electronic text with supporting documentation to Wagering@TRPB.com no later than September 30, 2006, for consideration at a WTP working session that will be held in mid-October 2006

[KingChas]

I'll see it.When I believe it! :sleeping:

[highnote]

If the vast majority of wagerers wait until the last possible moment to bet then how can odds drops be eliminated?

I'd like to see the odds displayed like they are for online stock and commodities trading services -- in real-time -- one second increments.

Maybe they could show payoffs to the nearest hundreth of a one unit bet rather than odds to 1.

I hate the deception that is employed by the racetracks. The round the odds to the nearest 10 or 20 cents. They should show the actual payoff and also the hypothetical payoff if no breakage and rounding down were taking place. They don't do it because, 1.) their systems are antiquated and 2.) they like to deceive the betting public. They really don't want the bettors to think about the real payoff they should be getting.

And while they're at it, do away with breakage. (Thieving bastards :D ) Except for people who cash bets with tellers, the rest of us want our accounts to be debited to the nearest hundreth of a dollar. They claim it is too inconvenient to pay out pennies. LOL. My supermarket does it everyday.

If you haven't already, read the book "Net Worth". It's about the history of the National Hockey League. It's incredible how the old time owners took advantage of the players. It's amazing how much abuse the players put up with. The owners kept the players in the dark -- even about their own pension plan!!! They weren't allowed to know how it was run. The owners just said to the players -- "Trust us."

There are a lot of parallels between today's racing industry and the old time NHL.

[richrosa]

I read the proposed spec. Its a major change to the way wagers are registered. My eliminating a regional hub, and making everything centralized, the whole system will go "near time (near real time)". What won't happen anymore is that when wagers are placed into the system at the gate, they get sent into to regional hub, then to the central hub, a delay of which could be 30-45 seconds, during the frenziest period of off-track activity, thus effecting the odds while the race is run.

The are proposing replacing 20 year old technology with some pretty smart, scalable stuff. In my opinion this will enable more entities to place wagers directly into the pools, and may be the first big step into trying to skin the off-shore game.

[AngelEyes]

Fixed price betting(ie. betting exchanges) would resolve these unnecessary problems. Imagine buying/selling stocks etc. without knowing the price you're going to pay or receive. It appears to me that the UK knows how to satisfy the betting public.

[Tote Master]

Hey CJ
Thanks for those updates and links. I very rarely have the time to catch up on things like that. Other then stabilizing the odds info at post time, I doubt these proposed software changes will have much of an impact during the entire betting cycle before each race. I’m certainly glad to hear that there will be an improvement in speed and accuracy, but their tote updates are planned to be every 30 sec. and most 3rd party tote info providers are currently set up for 60 sec. It should be interesting to see if any of them bother to improve their own speed for their customers (the bettors).

As far as the complaints with the current system go regarding changing odds after the gate opens, I will state unequivocally that entries at longer prices also change (upward - fortunately), and yes believe it or not they also win. I think the reason why so many complain is because the public’s 1st and 2nd choice generally wins more then 50% of the time, and of course this frequency (with odds also dropping) becomes more obvious to everyone.
richrosa
The are proposing replacing 20 year old technology with some pretty smart, scalable stuff. In my opinion this will enable more entities to place wagers directly into the pools, and may be the first big step into trying to skin the off-shore game. Skin off the off-shore game?!! Where do you think the off-shore operations are currently laying off both their big bets and the bets made by customers who know what they’re doing? ;)

Good Article :ThmbUp:

[1st time lasix]

Hope it helps...but until the pools at ALL race tracks stop taking in that batch offshore money up to 24 seconds after the race begins....there will be a way for individuals with the right technology to get a bets down on a front runners near the first call. Clean break...get the bet down. It is happening now at tracks like Calder. Unsurmountable "unfair" advantage. I was present at the 2004 DRF handicapping expo when Ed Bain asked an executive at the tote company about this reality directly. His honesty took my breath away. He said the systems was suceptible to "fraud" Indeed a late better could get down after the gates opened. As a result...I won't play tracks that allow it. I mentioned it in an email to Hegerty at the racing form....hoping it could shed light on it. He just gave me the usual track answer that it was just a lag in the system. No reason to question it. BS!

[twindouble]

Hope it helps...but until the pools at ALL race tracks stop taking in that batch offshore money up to 24 seconds after the race begins....there will be a way for individuals with the right technology to get a bets down on a front runners near the first call. Clean break...get the bet down. It is happening now at tracks like Calder. Unsurmountable "unfair" advantage. I was present at the 2004 DRF handicapping expo when Ed Bain asked an executive at the tote company about this reality directly. His honesty took my breath away. He said the systems was suceptible to "fraud" Indeed a late better could get down after the gates opened. As a result...I won't play tracks that allow it. I mentioned it in an email to Hegerty at the racing form....hoping it could shed light on it. He just gave me the usual track answer that it was just a lag in the system. No reason to question it. BS!

From day one, people have been betting horses after the break, I don't see where it's a huge advantage, any good handicapper can see who breaks good in the race and will have the lead unless he has trouble out of the gate or gets cut off. Sure having the lead gives helps in controlling the pace or getting clear of trouble but don't mean the horse will win. If someone can't read the form, what the heck are they doing betting in the first place.

Granted the late money is huge today, what upsets us all is how it effects the odds after the fact. That don't mean there's fraud involved. I love it when a horse goes from 1-1 to 1-9 and I don't like the horse to begin with. It works both ways. We can do a little experiment right here, just have the members pick the leader of any race and I'll wager most here will find that horse.


T.D.

[Show Me the Wire]

T.D.

Yes, much you say is true. What if you handicapped a speed duel and had the ability to wager after the break knowing the anticipated duel will not materilize?

Big advantage over everyone else.

[twindouble]

T.D.

Yes, much you say is true. What if you handicapped a speed duel and had the ability to wager after the break knowing the anticipated duel will not materilize?

Big advantage over everyone else.


The way I see it, those that are betting late have just as many "what if's" to deal with as we have. I'm just as apt to get a break as they are and believe me I've had my share.

The thing is, you have to know what your priorities are when it comes to handicapping and wagering, worrying about early or late money is not good in my opinion.

T.D.

[1st time lasix]

T.D.

Yes, much you say is true. What if you handicapped a speed duel and had the ability to wager after the break knowing the anticipated duel will not materilize?

Big advantage over everyone else. Exactly. Seeing the first 20 seconds or so of the race is a huge advantage. Nothing you say can say or write will convince me otherwise. A longer shot that has a good chance IF it breaks clean. identifying lone speed. etc. Hey.....I am not "worried" about it.....I just refuse to play where I know it is going on. No one is holding a gun to my head to play every track. Particularly if I know their is an uneven playing field. I don't think 98 % of the public knows it is happening. Believe me.....based on what I learned in that encounter.....all the odds drops are NOT the result of a lag in the system!

[cj]

Why this needs to be fixed...I made a big win/place bet on the 2 at Crc in the 3rd race. It was a route race, and the horse secures an pretty easy lead in a moderate 24 2/5. The horse is 22-1. By the time they reach the half, the horse is 13-1.

I have no idea if anything crooked is going on, but it sure looks fishy. The horse got nipped late, so in the end the win price didn't matter.

[Tom]

Good thing he lost!
You dodged a bullet there! :rolleyes:

[twindouble]

[QUOTE=cj]Why this needs to be fixed...I made a big win/place bet on the 2 at Crc in the 3rd race. It was a route race, and the horse secures an pretty easy lead in a moderate 24 2/5. The horse is 22-1. By the time they reach the half, the horse is 13-1.

I have no idea if anything crooked is going on, but it sure looks fishy. The horse got nipped late, so in the end the win price didn't matter.[/QUO

cj, what's wrong with thinking others out there saw what you saw in the horse and the money like always comes in late?

If everyone is so sure it's a big advantage, don't look at the form or your numbers, bet the horse big time that has the lead for a few races and see where you end up, just for fun. I would venture to say the majority would be chalk anyway, the way most lean on speed nowadays.


T.D.

[richrosa]

The point of the WTP is the eliminate the central hub, which will automatically keep the "off-shore" guys, or anyone else for that matter, on time with their wagers or they won't get a serial# that registers their wager into the betting pool. They are striving to go to a near-real time technology rather than the batch-delay one in place now. With the elimination of any wagers not registered centrally by post time, we all should be on even, fair ground.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, this should allow more people to take wagers into the pools. Integration to the wagering system is antiquated now, and everyone in the industry expects it to change. The simple economics is that competition for wagers will drive the price down and eventually effect the "off-shore" betting interests. Technology sometimes has a way of leveling the playing field, and one can see it happening here.

[twindouble]

The point of the WTP is the eliminate the central hub, which will automatically keep the "off-shore" guys, or anyone else for that matter, on time with their wagers or they won't get a serial# that registers their wager into the betting pool. They are striving to go to a near-real time technology rather than the batch-delay one in place now. With the elimination of any wagers not registered centrally by post time, we all should be on even, fair ground.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, this should allow more people to take wagers into the pools. Integration to the wagering system is antiquated now, and everyone in the industry expects it to change. The simple economics is that competition for wagers will drive the price down and eventually effect the "off-shore" betting interests. Technology sometimes has a way of leveling the playing field, and one can see it happening here.

If you mean by here, on PA, it's far from being a level playing field. :D Heck they even get into Plato, Socrates and clasical music. :rolleyes:

On subject, I understand the reasons why there's a need for change, anything that creates suspicion or even hints of fraud isn't good for business.
Batch wagering into the pools should never have been alowed to begin with or rebates. Even if all wagers are in by post time, the last minute surge will still be there. What then? Your 3-1 horse goes to 1-5, are we still going to think someone is cheating? The rebates upset me more than the late money anyway. Do away with the rebates and cut the takeout.

T.D.

[westbridge]

Hope it helps...but until the pools at ALL race tracks stop taking in that batch offshore money up to 24 seconds after the race begins....there will be a way for individuals with the right technology to get a bets down on a front runners near the first call. Clean break...get the bet down. It is happening now at tracks like Calder. Unsurmountable "unfair" advantage. I was present at the 2004 DRF handicapping expo when Ed Bain asked an executive at the tote company about this reality directly. His honesty took my breath away. He said the systems was suceptible to "fraud" Indeed a late better could get down after the gates opened. As a result...I won't play tracks that allow it. I mentioned it in an email to Hegerty at the racing form....hoping it could shed light on it. He just gave me the usual track answer that it was just a lag in the system. No reason to question it. BS!

Perpahs you can tell me which "offshore" shop allows betting 24 seconds after race begins?

I am batch betting with one and I don't see any difference in timing. On Sat, almost 1/5 of the races I bet on shut me out due to late timing. (In fact Calder tend to stop bet EARLIER than most tracks. On Sat, I got shut 4 out of 13 on that particular day.) As far a I can see, my only advantage in timing is betting fast, not betting late.

I know of only 3 "offshore" companies who co-mingle ALL bets with the host track, pays full odds, no restriction other than those imposted by the host tracks. Are there others?

[bigmack]

Read around page 11

http://www.ntra.com/content/taskforce0904.pdf#search=%22offshore%20wagering%20 that%20commingled%20bets%22

[Show Me the Wire]

Remember all those astute handicappers in the Dakotas.

[westbridge]

Read around page 11

http://www.ntra.com/content/taskforce0904.pdf#search=%22offshore%20wagering%20 that%20commingled%20bets%22

The Hollywood Park example shows the effect of delay in updating, not example of past-posting betting. In fact the report says "Subsequent investigations indicated that the wager was proper and legal."

[bigmack]

The Hollywood Park example shows the effect of delay in updating, not example of past-posting betting.
Haven't been following the thread - Who's past-posting and how can I get in on it?

[JustRalph]

Mack, thanks for the link. Page 11 is right.

I believe someone posted a transcript from a Las Vegas seminar wherein a presenter talked about late money coming in from South Dakota. The presenter said he had proof that this money was coming after the stop signal. I tried a search but couldn't find it. Anybody that might come up with it, maybe they can repost it...........

[ryesteve]

My opinion up until today was that people carrying on about past-posting where conspiracy theorists who didn't understand the limitations of the outdated technology in use. Now, I'm not so sure...

In the 7th at Del Mar today, the #3 was 8-1 as they were loading into the gate. At the start, the #2 stumbled and tossed the rider. As it happens, the #2 and #3 were the only two speeds in the race. With the #2 out of the race, it completely changed the outlook on the #3's chances. She easily got the lead, the rail, and relaxed very nicely going around the first turn. That's when I glanced down at the numbers at the bottom of the screen and saw that she was now 4-1! How often do you see a last flash drop like that in a pool the size of Del Mar's? Perhaps this too is totally legit, like the "Hollywood Park Incident", but man, it really does kinda smell...

[highnote]

The Hollywood Park example shows the effect of delay in updating, not example of past-posting betting. In fact the report says "Subsequent investigations indicated that the wager was proper and legal."

I found this on the web which confirms the "Subsequent Investigation" ...

"The NTRA Wagering Systems Task force released its report. The entire report can be downloaded at NTRA.com. On page 10 of the report they talk about Late Odds Changes and site a Hollywood Park race from April of this year. In the report they talk about a $7,000 wager of which an RGS customer bet $6,100. The report incorrectly suggests that the wager came in with less then 12 seconds to post. Actually the wager was accepted 43 seconds before post and this has been confirmed through tote reports. As you will see it was another 50 seconds before those wagers were reflected on the tote board. It took a total of 1 minute and 33 seconds from the time the wager was accepted by the tote system until it was posted on the tote board. The TRA & TRPB acknowledged the tote inefficiencies in April of 2001 and expressed the need for more efficient cycling of odds. Over three years later the problem remains, but today the NTRA report places blame on the bettor."