NYRA says their way is best way....

[PaceAdvantage]

It's good to see NYRA on the offensive for a change:

NYRA: Non-Profit Model is Best Option for Racing (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34948)

Hayward then discussed purses at NYRA tracks and how non-profit associations are among the national purse leaders. NYRA believes its non-profit status is a major positive in its bid to maintain the three-track franchise; many of the bidders or those associated with them are for-profit entities.

"You pay a lot of money to purses when you don't have to pay money to shareholders," Hayward said.

The three NYRA tracks are traditionally among the top 10 in the country by daily average purses, with Saratoga at or near the top. But Hayward said delays in installing and operating 4,500 video lottery terminals at Aqueduct is annually costing horsemen $49 million for purses and breeders $8 million in development funds at the outset.

That's about $190,000 a day in purses, while the state is losing $1.2 million per day in taxes, Hayward said.

"If you're a taxpayer, you should be pretty upset by what's happening with VLTs," he said, noting two key state approvals haven't been issued to move the project forward at Aqueduct. "The second floor at Aqueduct is waiting to hear from the second floor in Albany."

Hayward also said New York-bred purses at the three tracks have gone from $29.5 million in 2004 to $35 million this year.

NYRA in its RFP outlines $250 million in facility improvements, including replacement of two dirt surfaces with the synthetic Polytrack material. Again, he indicated a non-profit is better suited to make such improvements.

"What model is best for the franchise? The non-profit model is far superior," Hayward said. "One can disagree with how we operate the tracks, but one cannot dispute why we run the tracks."

As opposed to the for-profit model, which provides us with these quotes:

Ron Sultemeier, president of Delaware North Companies Gaming & Entertainment Corp., said the company's board of directors regularly studies a number of issues related to racing improvements. He said there have been backstretch improvements at Finger Lakes, but "major issues" are another matter.

"The two largest by far are do we go to an artificial surface and add a turf course at the same?" Sultemeier said. "Both are very expensive, and Finger Lakes is a small track. We have been able to do a little more backside work but haven't done major projects. These will be tough calls at tracks like Finger Lakes. The return on investment just isn't there.

"Do we discuss (addition of a turf course)? Yes. Has a decision been made? No."

Sultemeier noted what others in the racino industry have said for years: The state tax rate and the amount returned to racing will determine how much money is plowed back into the racing industry. New York has what is believed to be the highest tax rate on racetrack gaming in the country, whereas West Virginia, where Delaware North owns Wheeling Island Racetrack & Gaming Center, returns more revenue to operators and about double the purse cut for horsemen.

"We put in a $5.2-million kennel compound (for Wheeling Island Greyhound racing)," Sultemeier said. "It didn't make economic sense, but the VLTs have been successful. If we went forward, we wanted the nicest kennel compound in the country, and that's what we built. That's how we look at projects."

[PaceAdvantage]

PS. I suppose Hayward is talking about Aqueduct's two dirt surfaces when he dropped the Polytrack bomb......

[Indulto]

It's good to see NYRA on the offensive for a change:

... As opposed to the for-profit model, which provides us with these quotes:More support may be on the way.

Well-being of NY horse racing on the line The Saratogian 08/20/2006
http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17088740&BRD=1169&PAG=461&dept_id=17711&rfi=6 (http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17088740&BRD=1169&PAG=461&dept_id=17711&rfi=6)
“…There's a press on for publicity that places Empire Racing in a positive light and positions it as the favorite to replace NYRA.

… How can a group that doesn't yet run anything be considered the frontrunner of the bidders?

… When selecting an operator, it must be clear who would actually be in charge and whose interests they would be serving. The bigger an organization is, the harder it is to manage and to please shareholders. If Empire Racing sells itself as locally run, it would be the PR coup of the century.

The fact that so many big players are making such an effort to obtain the contract means one thing: They smell money.PA,
where did the Ron Sultemeier quote come from?

[weegee]

The Sultemeier quote comes from the Bloodhorse:

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34950

[RXB]

PS. I suppose Hayward is talking about Aqueduct's two dirt surfaces when he dropped the Polytrack bomb......

My guess is that it would be the 9f Aqueduct course and Belmont. They could turn Aqueduct's inner dirt into a second turf course.

[PaceAdvantage]

DUH! Good point....why the heck would you need two Polytrack dirt courses at Aqueduct!!!!????!!!!! Chalk that brain-fart up to the late hour of my post.

But this then raises the hideous specter of Polytrack at Belmont! Say it ain't so Joe (or RXB)!

Perhaps one of the tracks in question is a training track? The other, of course, should be Aqueduct inner, as a real-world test of sorts....

[Indulto]

The Sultemeier quote comes from the Bloodhorse:

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34950
Thanks, WG.
This quote from the article makes it clearer why SOME horsemen are supporting Empire and the idea of slots at both AQU and BEL:... Finger Lakes, located in western New York, long has been a haven for New York-bred horses that have difficulty competing at Aqueduct, Belmont Park, and Saratoga.

... Since the first racinos began opening in the early 1990s, it has become clear gaming revenue far exceeds pari-mutuel revenue. Finger Lakes, which must compete with other harness racinos and Indian casinos for business, is no different.

"The big money hasn't been there yet," Sultemeier said. "New York is a different model--it's a lot tighter. We have to look at that with our business considerations."

Purses at Finger Lakes are averaging $106,000 so far this year, down slightly from $107,000 last year, but that was for a full season of racing. Before VLTs began operating, purses averaged $75,000.How would MGM Grand's share of the slots revenue in the proposed arrangement the NYRA differ from that earmarked for Empire's shareholders?

Will increased purses from gaming revenue result in continued increasing emphasis on races restricted to New York-breds?

[PlanB]

Will NYRA's franchise continue? I don't know, but Spitzer will decide. I don't
think NYRA can ever TELL Spitzer that its their land; Spitzer would just ignore
them and award the franchise elsewhere. His ego is larger than Belmont Park.
Hayward's attempt now is much better than asserting any right to the land.

[PaceAdvantage]

I guess you could say that the "right to the land" is their PlanB, right PlanB? <groan>

[Indulto]

I guess you could say that the "right to the land" is their PlanB, right PlanB? <groan>PA,
Lately Hevesi sounds like he is trying to give the RFP a "Plan B" pill. ;)

From "Empire Racing says Hello, Marylou" by Steven Crist in Sunday's DRF print edition:Ironically, Spitzer and Hevesi were NYRA's worst nightmares a year ago when both were investigating and castigating the tracks' operations. Both now seem relatively pleased with NYRA's performance and at least philosophically in favor of its nonprofit model.This column was one of Crist's wittiest. Serving as the NYRA's most effective voice ... priceless!

[PaceAdvantage]

Honestly, does anyone want Empire Racing running anything?

You have Churchill Downs, Magna, Delaware North, NYTHA (though from what I hear, not necessarily the horsemen), Jerry Bailey, and let's not forget one Ms. Marylou Whitney all vying for some face time with this organization for Pete's sake!

It looks to this observer as if the only thing Empire Racing is going to bring to NY is one giant cluster @%#@!!!!!!

[Indulto]

Honestly, does anyone want Empire Racing running anything?

You have Churchill Downs, Magna, Delaware North, NYTHA (though from what I hear, not necessarily the horsemen), Jerry Bailey, and let's not forget one Ms. Marylou Whitney all vying for some face time with this organization for Pete's sake!

It looks to this observer as if the only thing Empire Racing is going to bring to NY is one giant cluster @%#@!!!!!!In a glossy brochure no doubt.

Which cliche or paraphrasing is most applicable?

1) "Too many chiefs and not enough indians."

2) "Too many chefs spoil the stew."

3) My empire for a horse (New York-bred).

4) "Empirical truth." Is it an oxymoron?

5) The Empire Stabs Back (or Mr. Smith goes to Albany). :lol:

[weegee]

So what did he say about Mary Lou? I'm dying to know but I have to wait until the column becomes generally accessible. My guess is he was politely neutral (you never know when you're going to be invited to one of her parties). I'm going to blaspheme, so cover your ears: I never warmed up to her.

[Indulto]

So what did he say about Mary Lou? I'm dying to know but I have to wait until the column becomes generally accessible. My guess is he was politely neutral (you never know when you're going to be invited to one of her parties). I'm going to blaspheme, so cover your ears: I never warmed up to her.WG,
I would be doing you a disservice and eliminating an enjoyable experience for you by telling you what he said, but it wasn't "Goodbye, Heart. Sweet Marylou, I'm so in love with you." :lol:

[kenwoodallpromos]

WG,
I would be doing you a disservice and eliminating an enjoyable experience for you by telling you what he said, but it wasn't "Goodbye, Heart. Sweet Marylou, I'm so in love with you." :lol:
______________
"With VLTs, NYRA would be Keeneland on steroids."
LOL!!

[TravisVOX]

I believe it's the Aqueduct main and Belmont training for Poly... that's the widely felt assumption.

[PlanB]

Just for the record: EXCELSIOR RACING ASSOC (ERA) includes:
George Steinbrenner + his son-in-law Steve Swindal:D + Richard Fields +
Bill Mulrow + Tishman Speyer Properties. ALL these players are near & dear
to Eliot Spitzer, particularly Fields & Mulrow. I suppose the Tishman group
also since Spitzer's family is also big in real estate in NYC. IMHO, its this
group who will most likely win the franchise after 2007. (After typing this
I'm suddenly feeling the urge to hug the NYRA group.)

[Bruddah]

with the financial problems they have created. There is no good reason for a non profit organiztion to be in the red. NONE! Unless you are being managed incompetently by idiots or by "Tony" and the boys. If NYRA wins the bid, then New York racing fans will be screwed again. :faint: :bang:

[Tom]

I believe it's the Aqueduct main and Belmont training for Poly... that's the widely felt assumption.

That seems kind of nuts to me - make them train on a totally different surface than they will actually race over? That's like getting ready for a math exam by studying grammar.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Someone please tell NYRA that "non'profit" does not mean "less gross income"!!LOL!!

[highnote]

How does Hayward know that a non-profit will do more for racing than a for-profit? What's wrong with returning money to shareholders? If a for-profit racetrack is well-run then there should be plenty of money for everyone. Plus, with profit as a motive the management should be more motivated to keep the plant running at optimal efficiency. I've been going to NYRA tracks since the early 90s, I have watched the quality of everything about them slowly go down.

Why and how is racing different than any other business? If we use his logic then we should all just become communists.

If I was Racing Czar every track would be for-profit and there would be as many tracks in NYC as the market could bear.

I think it's time to give a for-profit a chance.

I've said from day one this is going to be the fight of the century because there are huge sums of money at stake -- and money equals power. Soon the punches are going to start flying. You ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Look at it this way... Let's hypothetically say that NYRA is awarded the franchise again. 1.) Make a note of Hayward's salary now.

2.) Assume NYRA gets slots. Compare his post-slots salary with his pre-slots salary.

3.) Then ask yourself this question -- is it really about the racing -- or is it about the money?

If it is about the racing then it's only because it's about the money first. No money, no racing.

If it is really about the racing, then do it like they do in other parts of the horse competition business -- for the sport and pleasure of it.

I wish people would not try to do a soft shoe and try to lead us believe that they are all about the good of the sport when they are really all about the Benjamins.

[PaceAdvantage]

Since when the heck does not-for-profit = communist?

Not-for-profit organizations certainly can and DO earn profits. However, those profits are not to be used to pay trustees or shareholders, or any other type of private gain. Those profits will be plowed back into the organization to be used however best seen fit to improve the infrastructure, or in the case of racing, increase purses, paint the barns, etc. etc.

As for Hayward, he makes some good points:

What's interesting to note is seven of the 10 average purses per day paid out are not-for-profit associations. I think that's a very important thing to understand. You can pay out more money to purses if you don't have to pay money to shareholders.

Going to the next page, again you can see the top three are not-for-profits-Saratoga, Keeneland and Belmont-and you'll notice if you add up all three NYRA tracks-and all three NYRA tracks are in the top 10 each year-you'll see that purses continue to increase in what's been a pretty difficult time in the racing industry.

Going to 2005, Belmont, Saratoga and Keeneland. Again, increases in purses at Saratoga. And I think we'll have a pretty dramatic increase in the purses paid out in 2006. I predict we'll be somewhere in the neighborhood of $670,000 per day. I believe the ranking will be Saratoga, 1; Belmont, 2; and Keeneland, 3.

And as for this whole NYRA franchise thing, I agree, there are going to be fireworks. Some sooner, some later. I think this thing is going to have more plot twists than an M. Night Shyamalan picture.

[highnote]

Since when the heck does not-for-profit = communist?

It's called hyperbole.

I was trying to make the point that just because NYRA has been non-profit for the past 40 years does not mean non-profit is the right model for the next 40.



Not-for-profit organizations certainly can and DO earn profits. However, those profits are not to be used to pay trustees or shareholders, or any other type of private gain. Those profits will be plowed back into the organization to be used however best seen fit to improve the infrastructure, or in the case of racing, increase purses, paint the barns, etc. etc.

A company that raises capital in the equity markets should have a lot more to spend on infrastructure than a poorly performing non-profit. Maybe a for-profit company will make much more than a non-profit. How many non-profit companies are there in the Fortune 500? Plus a for-profit company is beholden to shareholders. If the product stinks, heads-roll. There is a lot of incentive to improve product when you're running a for-profit company. NYRA has never cared about good customer service. Why? Because they don't have to. If you're a wealthy trustee you're not going to have to stand in a long line to bet or eat cold Sbarro's pizza. You'll have a nice table at one of the restaurants overlooking the track.


As for Hayward, he makes some good points: You can pay out more money to purses if you don't have to pay money to shareholders.

True -- if all other factors equal. However, not all other factors would be equal. Companies that raise money through sales of shares of stock to the public might have more money available to improve the product. God knows NYRA has terrible customer service and customer service is part of the product. If a company is responsible for turning a profit and paying out a dividend to shareholders and they see customer service as a key driver of profitability then they will improve customer service.

Keeneland is only able to pay out high purses because of their enormously successful horse sales. Take away the sales and use only betting handle to pay purses and their purses would practically dry up. Keeneland's profits from sales equals high purse subsidy. Weak argument Hayward.

Saratoga and Belmont -- best racing in the country because so many wealthy owners live near NY. Great racing drives betting handle. Betting handle is driven by a large betting population nearby. Betting handle has nothing to do with NYRA's non-profit status. Bettors don't give a shit about NYRA's corporate form. All they care about is the quality of the races. Weak argument Hayward.


Going to the next page, again you can see the top three are not-for-profits-Saratoga, Keeneland and Belmont-and you'll notice if you add up all three NYRA tracks-and all three NYRA tracks are in the top 10 each year-you'll see that purses continue to increase in what's been a pretty difficult time in the racing industry

Is he talking about the same NYRA that was almost bankrupt? It's amazing how the story changes depending on who he's preaching to. But I can't criticize too much (even though I do). He's just doing his job. But I gotta believe he and everyone else is licking their chops at the thought of all that slot machine money jingling in their pockets.



And as for this whole NYRA franchise thing, I agree, there are going to be fireworks. Some sooner, some later. I think this thing is going to have more plot twists than an M. Night Shyamalan picture.

It's gonna get good. I've felt from the beginning that this might be one of the best stories of the century. And that's no hyperbole.

[PaceAdvantage]

Regarding Keeneland, Hayward equates the coming VLT windfall to the highly successful Keeneland sales, and rightly so. You're making his point for him here.

There is a lot of incentive to improve product when you're running a for-profit company

There is also a lot of incentive to get things done in the cheapest way possible. There's lots of incentive to cut corners. We've seen plenty of this as NYRA has driven to the brink of bankruptcy. Don't for a minute think that just because a company is a for-profit corporation it will always be looking to spend any extra money lying around on improvements. That money might look better in the pockets of upper management.

With a not-for-profit corporation, any extra money lying around HAS to be put back into the company (and in NYRA's specific case, it has to go to capital improvements).

Do you honestly think that NYS should just give the franchise to some company that appears to be haphazardly thrown together for the express purpose of getting their hands on the coming VLT cash cow?

What Hayward says makes a lot of sense to me....

[twindouble]

Regarding Keeneland, Hayward equates the coming VLT windfall to the highly successful Keeneland sales, and rightly so. You're making his point for him here.



There is also a lot of incentive to get things done in the cheapest way possible. There's lots of incentive to cut corners. We've seen plenty of this as NYRA has driven to the brink of bankruptcy. Don't for a minute think that just because a company is a for-profit corporation it will always be looking to spend any extra money lying around on improvements. That money might look better in the pockets of upper management.

With a not-for-profit corporation, any extra money lying around HAS to be put back into the company (and in NYRA's specific case, it has to go to capital improvements).

Do you honestly think that NYS should just give the franchise to some company that appears to be haphazardly thrown together for the express purpose of getting their hands on the coming VLT cash cow?

What Hayward says makes a lot of sense to me....

PA, in a not for profit corp. who controls salarys and the number of figure heads that will be drawing those salarys, not to mention all the perks they will dream up?


T.D.

[aaron]

PA,
Look at the deal Kenny Noe got for a non for profit organization.

[PaceAdvantage]

Kenny Noe? How long has he been out of office? And besides....

Are you guys trying to imply that people work FOR FREE at not-for-profit corporations? Hardly....

Look at some of the salaries of those that head up the biggest charitable organizations in the country....

[Suff]

NYRA's financial performance has been severely handicapped by the invoices submitted by Getnick & Getnick. Additionally, all the changes, (e.g. detention barn, testing, security) has been a drain. Not only of capital , but of intellectual operating resources. The amount of "brain drain" that came with the minutia of dealing with the federal monitor has been difficult for NYRA

[aaron]

PA-
Just pointing out that they made ridiculous hires.They got Barry Schwartz for nothing and then blamed everything bad that happened at NYRA on his
administration.
The "Old Boys" at NYRA have basically made one bad decision after another for 30 years.Their biggest problem seems to be that they run NYRA for themselves,not for the horseman or their customers.
I don't think they know things have changed since they were first given the franchise.

[Suff]

allegiences are being tested, and chism's have begun.


Marylou Whitney's defection was more of an endorsement of Empire Racing. I was under the Impression that Whitney threw down with the Phipp's. Tim Smith. ( ex NTRA prez) was in bed with Phipp's not 6 months ago?. When Smith joined Friends of New York Racing , Dinny Phipps gave him an office at the Jockey Club to operate out of.

Then when Smith defected to Empire Group I thought it signaled a good thing for NYRA. But, Steve Crist wrote in a column about a month ago...speaking of Smiths return to Saratoga for the pre-bid conference three weeks ago.

"Tim Smith may want to get someone else to start his car for him when he comes back to New York this week"
:confused:

[highnote]

Regarding Keeneland, Hayward equates the coming VLT windfall to the highly successful Keeneland sales, and rightly so. You're making his point for him here.

Glad we agree. I didn't see his equating sales and VLTs in your quote, otherwise I would have saved myself a lot of shit, mess and bother arguing the point. LOL



There is also a lot of incentive to get things done in the cheapest way possible. There's lots of incentive to cut corners.

Perhaps so. If a for-profit company cuts corners it will be reflected in their profit/loss as they lose customers and ultimately lead to their demise or sale or turnaround. NYRA has been cutting corners for the past 15 years and we've been stuck with them. I don't like state sanctioned monopolies -- never have and never will.



We've seen plenty of this as NYRA has driven to the brink of bankruptcy. Don't for a minute think that just because a company is a for-profit corporation it will always be looking to spend any extra money lying around on improvements. That money might look better in the pockets of upper management.

The same argument can be made for non-profits. Perhaps the current executives should have cut their salaries and poured their salary money into improvements.

With a not-for-profit corporation, any extra money lying around HAS to be put back into the company (and in NYRA's specific case, it has to go to capital improvements).

or to executive salaries. You know, if NYRA gets the franchise and then they get slots-- executive salaries are going to go through the roof. They will justify their high salaries by arguing that all the revenue from slots requires so much more managament. At least with a for-profit, shareholders can also benefit from the slot revenue.

Do you honestly think that NYS should just give the franchise to some company that appears to be haphazardly thrown together for the express purpose of getting their hands on the coming VLT cash cow?

No. Did I imply that? Sounds like you're talking about Empire Racing.

Churchill and Magna have decent records. As does the company that owns Finger Lakes and even Mountaineer Racing and Gaming.

What Hayward says makes a lot of sense to me....

Some of what he says makes sense. Other things seems like he's pandering to the audience that he thinks will award the franchise. But that's his job. I wouldn't expect otherwise.

I just think it's time to put the business out to the highest bidder. NYRA has shown they can't run the plant. Churchill has done a pretty good job running their flagship track. And Magna obviously is interested in doing good things for racing -- even if it's actions seem a bit unorthodox at times.

Let the free market forces go to work. I guess that's why I called non-profits communist-like. I'd rather see capitalism at work than some kind pf quasi-governmental entity operating racing in NYC. They can't even figure out who owns the land for chrissakes.

And you want to see 40 more years of this dog and pony show? I suppose it is entertaining. :D

[Bruddah]

NYRA's financial performance has been severely handicapped by the invoices submitted by Getnick & Getnick. Additionally, all the changes, (e.g. detention barn, testing, security) has been a drain. Not only of capital , but of intellectual operating resources. The amount of "brain drain" that came with the minutia of dealing with the federal monitor has been difficult for NYRA

I read your posts religiously, because you usually make great "horse sense". However, you must have forgotten all the reasons that caused the Judge to have Getnick & Getnick on the scene. Also, all the problems with the testing barn, security etc. etc. If there has been any kind of drain, it's been caused by poor management and oversight by the NYRA. In other words, they got what they deserved and it was just a slap on the wrist. Also, it should of happened a lot sooner than it did. :bang:

[highnote]

I read your posts religiously, because you usually make great "horse sense". However, you must have forgotten all the reasons that caused the Judge to have Getnick & Getnick on the scene. Also, all the problems with the testing barn, security etc. etc. If there has been any kind of drain, it's been caused by poor management and oversight by the NYRA. In other words, they got what they deserved and it was just a slap on the wrist. Also, it should of happened a lot sooner than it did. :bang:

Thanks for reminding us Bruddah. I had forgotten some of those things myself. I think that's what NYRA's counting on -- people having short memories.

A lot of people don't like Eliot Spitzer for trying to force NYRA to clean up their act, but it was long overdue and NY racing fans should be thanking him.

I can't tell you how many times I was shortchanged by NYRA tellers. I'd hit a big win payoff and have some change due to me -- say 60 cents -- and the teller would keep it and look at me like I was crazy, like I was some kind of cheapskate, for wanting that 60 cents. Well, I was more deserving of it than the person who was supposed to give it to me!

Then some of those tellers were avoiding taxes. I forget how they did it. Some of said it wasn't much money -- but I don't care if it was one penny. It was immoral, unethical and illegal and it seemed to be going on right under managements' noses. And who knows for how long.

I'm not saying a for-profit business would not have had some of the same problems (can you say Enron) -- but let's give a different business model a chance and we'll find out. NYRA has too much baggage.

I used to go to NYRA races every Saturday. But it got so bad there, I just stopped going. I think I've only been twice to Belmont for the Belmont Stakes. Both times the experience was unpleasant. I wanted to buy tickets for the Belmont Stakes and then go home. So I drove from Connecticut to Belmont Park, had to pay to park just to buy tickets at the ticket line, and then they told me they were sold out -- after I had just called them and asked them if they still had tickets. Whoever heard of having to pay to park at a racetrack just to be able to buy tickets for an event at the same racetrack. That was the Smarty Jones Belmont.

Then two Belmont's ago, we bought tickets in advance for the Afleet Alex (I think) Belmont. We wanted good seats so we paid a premium for apron seats. What a joke those were. They were on the grass beyond the finish line outdoors with no cover. It was very hot that day. No one was sitting in them. You couldn't. So we stood around all day inside without a seat.

Now that was what I call not caring about the customer. If I treated one of my clients that way, I'd never work for them again. Same goes here. When I'm a paying customer and get treated like shit by NYRA, they do not get any of my money. I'd rather bet Mountaineer anyday. Every time I attend the live races at Mountaineer the experience is much more pleasant than at Belmont. Even Saratoga this year was a disappointment. The food and service at the Carousel Restaurant was the worst we've ever had since we've been going there.

The whole organization seems to be crumbling. No way do they deserve to run the operation for another 40 years.

If the management truly cared they would have that place and everyone who works in it whipped into shape and providing world-class entertainment. They can't even outdo Mountaineer Park.

Good riddance, NYRA.

[Suff]

I read your posts religiously, because you usually make great "horse sense". However, you must have forgotten all the reasons that caused the Judge to have Getnick & Getnick on the scene. Also, all the problems with the testing barn, security etc. etc. If there has been any kind of drain, it's been caused by poor management and oversight by the NYRA. In other words, they got what they deserved and it was just a slap on the wrist. Also, it should of happened a lot sooner than it did. :bang:

NYC has its way of doing things and Albany has its. Both turned a blind eye to various shenanigans. Beyond some questionable spending, a poor employee culture, poor backside policing, I did not see NYRA as a law breaker....in some form of unadulterated way. Excess's and abuses would how I'd describe the meat of the charges. Only when the Slots bill got approved, and the mack daddy of them all got involved ( Federal Monitor) did NYRA become the Jesse James of the east.

.

I take in all things with one over riding notion. A gambling license, that includes Slots ( potential for poker & tables later) in the Metropolitan New York area, and that includes the upstate golden goose of Saratoga, is a business Franchise that only comes about every century or so. We're talking serious serious money and influence here.

Still, as recently as two weeks ago, Hevesi, using the Getnick and Getnick recommended remedies was attacking the RFP's that are currently under advisement


NYS comptroller, press release, 8-14-06
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/aug06/081406b.htm


Hevesi said that all potential franchise holders should include in their proposals detailed plans to address the following points:

All thoroughbred tracks should provide safe, healthy, humane working and living environments for all employees.
Simulcast signals should not be provided to rebate shop betting locations that do not provide all necessary information to confirm that they are operating in a lawful manner.
Drug-testing programs should be in place to ensure that all races are fairly run.
All tracks should have pre-race monitoring barns.
Horsemen’s funds should be maintained in fully-funded segregated trust accounts, with full access for horsemen to account records.
A comprehensive code of ethics should be in place and meaningfully enforced at all tracks.
Annual audited financial statements should be prepared according to generally-accepted accounting principles, should accurately portray the financial condition of the franchise holder and should be available to State regulatory agencies.
The franchise holder should register as a Money Services Business, encompassing all related reporting requirements

[Bruddah]

[QUOTE=Suff]NYC has its way of doing things and Albany has its. Both turned a blind eye to various shenanigans. Beyond some questionable spending, a poor employee culture, poor backside policing, I did not see NYRA as a law breaker....in some form of unadulterated way. Excess's and abuses would how I'd describe the meat of the charges. Only when the Slots bill got approved, and the mack daddy of them all got involved ( Federal Monitor) did NYRA become the Jesse James of the east.

This, in some way, qualifies them (NYRA) to continue running a "huge cash flow" franchise? This, in some way, demonstrates their fitness and ability to manage employees and deal with Unions (Tony and the boys)?? Sure, they get my vote. :lol:

Suff, you are a gentleman, and way to smart and knowledgable to be giving the NYRA these as legitimate excuses and byes. Here's news! In a non profit corporation, management operates mainly as a custodian. In case of the NYRA, a public custodian. Please, these guys should have been fired as janitors, a long time ago. :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

Ticket sales and temporary seating are not what I would call dominant factors in deciding whether or not to renew a franchise.

I believe NYRA offers Belmont Stakes tickets for sale via mail way before they run the Kentucky Derby. If you wait until there is a triple crown on the line, you're going to be in trouble.

Racing quality (still the best, no matter what some on here might argue), average purses (Saratoga leads the country), and average attendance (Saratoga leads the country) certainly bear more weight on whether or not the guys running the show are doing their jobs right.

As to other questions raised in this thread.....if a not-for-profit company has earned a profit during a given fiscal year, they can NOT use those specific profits to reward executives in the form of bonuses or salary increases. That would violate the not-for-profit status of the company, if I am not mistaken.

Many on here call me biased, or a shill for NYRA, and that's fine. I've been a huge fan of NY racing since I first started going to the races almost 20 years ago. Growing up 5 minutes from Belmont Park will do that to a kid....

With that said, NYRA has been in charge for over 50 years, and throughout that time has kept NY racing at the top of the charts, through good times and bad. There's something to be said about that....

Now we're supposed to throw out the baby with the bath water because of some shady tellers and a greedy maitre d'? Makes a lot of sense.....

Oh, I know, let's give the franchise to that black hole of racing enterprises known as Empire who gladly accepts help from companies such as this one:

http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/1y/m/meca

[Indulto]

Ticket sales and temporary seating are not what I would call dominant factors in deciding whether or not to renew a franchise.

I believe NYRA offers Belmont Stakes tickets for sale via mail way before they run the Kentucky Derby. If you wait until there is a triple crown on the line, you're going to be in trouble.

Racing quality (still the best, no matter what some on here might argue), average purses (Saratoga leads the country), and average attendance (Saratoga leads the country) certainly bear more weight on whether or not the guys running the show are doing their jobs right.

As to other questions raised in this thread.....if a not-for-profit company has earned a profit during a given fiscal year, they can NOT use those specific profits to reward executives in the form of bonuses or salary increases. That would violate the not-for-profit status of the company, if I am not mistaken.

Many on here call me biased, or a shill for NYRA, and that's fine. I've been a huge fan of NY racing since I first started going to the races almost 20 years ago. Growing up 5 minutes from Belmont Park will do that to a kid....

With that said, NYRA has been in charge for over 50 years, and throughout that time has kept NY racing at the top of the charts, through good times and bad. There's something to be said about that....

Now we're supposed to throw out the baby with the bath water because of some shady tellers and a greedy maitre d'? Makes a lot of sense.....PA,
I think an icon to replace your favored MEC stock chart may now be appropriate, but otherwise, this is probably the only thing we seem to agree on with any consistency.

Some very interesting thoughts in this thread, but is the issue really NYRA vs. Anybody Else? Or Non-profit vs For-profit?

If quality of racing and racing tradition (especially at Saratoga) is the priority, then support by wealthy owners and non-commercial breeders is essential. I can’t say that Hayward and Nader represent the best possible operations management, but I truly believe the NYRA board of directors are most likely to preserve what I think is good about NY racing.

It’s hard for me to believe a board answering to corporate investors and an operation run by executives with performance bonuses is more likely to put more money into government coffers and preserve a cultural tradition at the expense of profits.

The idea that CDI would place the importance of any other venue above that of Churchill Downs or that MEC would place a priority on preserving tradition over Mr. Stronach’s “visions of the future” or that running either Finger Lakes Racetrack or the Yankees is the qualifying experience that guarantees improvements in NY racing without negatively impacting what makes it the most attractive wagering venue seems unlikely at best.

Unquestionably, changes are necessary to the operation of the three NYRA tracks.

Maybe it is possible that changes in racing to further accommodate commercial breeders, owners of New York-breds, trainers, and racetrack conglomerates (that so far have been unwilling to cooperate to accomplish major improvements for the benefit of themselves or U.S. resident racing fans nationwide) will result in thoroughbred racing being conducted that does in fact attract increased “legal” off-track handle as well as participation by new enthusiasts.

But what happens if it doesn’t work out that way?

[highnote]

Ticket sales and temporary seating are not what I would call dominant factors in deciding whether or not to renew a franchise.

Of course not -- if those were my only two gripes. Those are just two examples of the kind of problems that exist at every level of the operation.

I believe NYRA offers Belmont Stakes tickets for sale via mail way before they run the Kentucky Derby. If you wait until there is a triple crown on the line, you're going to be in trouble.

Yes. I've been to almost every Belmont since 1990. Sometimes friends ask me to get them tickets at the last minute. You'd think by now Belmont would know how to run a big event. CDI does a much better job with the Derby. No comparison.

Racing quality (still the best, no matter what some on here might argue), average purses (Saratoga leads the country), and average attendance (Saratoga leads the country)

Agree.

certainly bear more weight on whether or not the guys running the show are doing their jobs right.

Disagree. There is not much competition with Belmont and Saratoga as far as thoroughbred racing goes and there is a huge population from which to draw. Of course they will lead the country in attendence. Plus they've got the prime racing dates. What about Aqueduct?

It would still be nice if NY racing was run by an organization that actually cared about it's patrons.

As to other questions raised in this thread.....if a not-for-profit company has earned a profit during a given fiscal year, they can NOT use those specific profits to reward executives in the form of bonuses or salary increases. That would violate the not-for-profit status of the company, if I am not mistaken.

You are probably right. However, that doesn't mean that next year that can't raise salaries.

Many on here call me biased, or a shill for NYRA, and that's fine. I've been a huge fan of NY racing since I first started going to the races almost 20 years ago. Growing up 5 minutes from Belmont Park will do that to a kid....

I do the same thing for the Cleveland Indians and it has not done me any good. :bang:

With that said, NYRA has been in charge for over 50 years, and throughout that time has kept NY racing at the top of the charts, through good times and bad. There's something to be said about that....

Maybe management 25 years ago was better than management today?




Now we're supposed to throw out the baby with the bath water because of some shady tellers and a greedy maitre d'? Makes a lot of sense.....

Among all the other things, yes. This all goes right to the top. Those at the top have to accept responsibility.


Oh, I know, let's give the franchise to that black hole of racing enterprises known as Empire who gladly accepts help from companies such as this one:

The only person that keeps mentioning Empire is you. What about CDI or MEC? Or that hospitality company that owns Finger Lakes. Or even Mountaineer Gaming. Although I think CDI would be the frontrunner. NYRA is such a big property, can CDI even afford to buy it?

After all is said and done, I wouln't be surprised if NYRA is reissued the franchise. That would give them 30 more years to figure out who owns the land.

[Indulto]

... It would still be nice if NY racing was run by an organization that actually cared about it's patrons.SJ,
Why are you so sure patrons in all statistically significant bankroll breakdowns will be treated better under non-NYRA management? Until fans organize into something more representative and influential than the NTRA Player's Panel, I don't have much hope for satisfaction in that category regardless of who runs the show.... Maybe management 25 years ago was better than management today?I was most content with Dreyfuss/Trotter. Any rebuttals or other recommendations?... Among all the other things, yes. This all goes right to the top. Those at the top have to accept responsibility.I agree.... After all is said and done, I wouln't be surprised if NYRA is reissued the franchise. That would give them 30 more years to figure out who owns the land.Any bidding seems premature until that issue is resolved.

[Suff]

[QUOTE=Suff][QUOTE] Suff, you are a gentleman, and way to smart




You sure your talking to the right guy? .:lol:


and knowledgeable to be giving the NYRA these as legitimate excuses and byes. Here's news! In a non profit corporation, management operates mainly as a custodian. In case of the NYRA, a public custodian. Please, these guys should have been fired as janitors, a long time ago.


Reference the Non-profit. Over time, as deals got done, each side gave a little. What ultimately happened is we now have this mess known as NYRA. It's like the Bible in that there is answer for every conundrum.

The issues of property tax's paid, Land ownership, legal structure and operating parameters are so muddied that each sides arguments have merits.

Have you ever done a deal, Business or otherwise, that is so attractive, and so juicy, that you accept a term here or there that is objectionable? I have, both on a personal basis, and in business.

That is what happened here. NYRA under various managements, and under various operating parameters did deals with Albany that now haunt. And Albany ( read: politicians) did deals for short term political gain or were influenced by notable New Yorkers.

You gotta go back to when NYRA was broke about a few decades ago to get at some of the Ghosts that are now appearing. People, in an effort to get one part a deal they needed, sold out portions they now need back. But the language is so ambiguous that its going to take a boat load of $800 an hour park avenue lawyers to sort out.


I truly only have two worries here. Whoever gets it, does NOT DO to NYRA what was done to Santa Anita & Hollywood the last three years, and equally as important, that they leave Saratoga relatively unchanged. I weep at the thought of sharing Saratoga with Slot players. Slot players meaning "Only slot players".

Other than that, I'm not at odds with you. They were dirty...and it may just be the end of them because of it.

What's the alternative? A stock price as the overriding decision making component?? That one keeps me up at night.

[PaceAdvantage]

The only person that keeps mentioning Empire is you. What about CDI or MEC?

Empire Racing IS CDI and MEC and DELAWARE NORTH! Haven't you been reading the news? This behemoth bidder (Empire Racing) is partnered with all THREE of these companies, plus others (SL Green Realty Group). It's a total cluster @!#$ if you ask me, and it boggles my mind to picture how truly messed up NY racing will become if all these chiefs waltz into town and take over the joint.

I get the shakes just thinking about it.....

[PaceAdvantage]

And just to be fair, here is the chart of Churchill over the last two years....better than Magna for sure, but not exactly awe-inspiring....

http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/2y/c/chdn

[aaron]

I think the player will be in trouble no matter who wins the franchise.
Since the 70's what positive thing has NYRA brought to racing ?
They gave up the rights to control racing when they didn't take control of otb. Other than lowering the takeout once or twice,have they ever done anything positive?With that said,I really believe its not all their fault.The politicians are trying to kill the game.I don't know what the answer is,but strong leadership would help.As of now no group has great leadership.

[highnote]

SJ,
Why are you so sure patrons in all statistically significant bankroll breakdowns will be treated better under non-NYRA management?

I'm not sure. Maybe NYRA would be better than a profit driven company. There is no way to know for sure. You can only try to forcast. I put my money on a for-profit. I could be wrong. God knows I've bet on my share of losers.

[highnote]

[QUOTE=Bruddah][QUOTE=Suff]

Reference the Non-profit. Over time, as deals got done, each side gave a little. What ultimately happened is we now have this mess known as NYRA. It's like the Bible in that there is answer for every conundrum.

Good points. Maybe selling the franchise to the highest bidder would elinimate all these problems in the future.

I truly only have two worries here. Whoever gets it, does NOT DO to NYRA what was done to Santa Anita & Hollywood the last three years,

Low-income housing on what is now Aqueduct would be a major improvement.


and equally as important, that they leave Saratoga relatively unchanged. I weep at the thought of sharing Saratoga with Slot players. Slot players meaning "Only slot players".

Saratoga is the best track I've been to. I've never been to Del Mar, but it sounds nice, too. I think it would be great if the whole town of Saratoga or Saratoga Springs would have the type of gambling like they did a hundred or so years ago -- casinos with table games and slots, etc. That would make it a much more interesting destination.


What's the alternative? A stock price as the overriding decision making component?? That one keeps me up at night.

I worry more about decisions being made to placate some politicians than I do placating shareholders.

[highnote]

Empire Racing IS CDI and MEC and DELAWARE NORTH! Haven't you been reading the news?

No. I thought Empire was the Funny Cide people. Seems to me CDI, MEC and DEL could handle this.


This behemoth bidder (Empire Racing) is partnered with all THREE of these companies, plus others (SL Green Realty Group). It's a total cluster @!#$ if you ask me, and it boggles my mind to picture how truly messed up NY racing will become if all these chiefs waltz into town and take over the joint.

I get the shakes just thinking about it.....

It does seem a bit soupy with all these chefs. Guess I need to catch up on my reading.

Personally, I'd like to see racing left to free market forces. Maybe it will never happen in NY. Too much money at stake and too many politicians and bureauocrats with their hands out looking for a piece of the pie.

In a perfect capitalist world government would take a laisse-faire position and let the market work it's magic.

Maybe even if a for profit company takes over NYRA they will still be strangled by meddling politicians.

All I know is under the current structure NYRA gets none of my wagering dollars. That may not be much money, but as a consumer I have a choice. And I will spend my dollars where I get the best value and am treated the best by the company.

[Indulto]

http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17151362&BRD=1169&PAG=461&dept_id=17708&rfi=6 (http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17151362&BRD=1169&PAG=461&dept_id=17708&rfi=6)
Nader: 2006 meet ends on a high note PAUL POST, The Saratogian 09/05/2006... 'From start to finish our customers have to be pleased with the kind of product we put together,' said New York Racing Association Chief Operating Officer Bill Nader.

According to statistics from NYRA, attendance averaged 25,959, a modest increase over last year's 25,914. Total attendance for the meet stood at 908,569, about 24,000 less than in 2005, albeit with one fewer day in this year's meet

… On-track handle averaged $3.23 million per day, down slightly from last year's $3.28 million figure. But all-sources handle averaged $15.6 million, up from the $14.9 million of a year ago. All-sources handle fell below $10 million just twice, compared to five times last summer. 'I think the racing's been very good this year,' Nader said. 'Field sizes were up and the quality was very good. We just did a better job this year.'

… Extreme heat and humidity on Wednesday, Aug. 2 forced the cancellation of races because of weather for the first time in history, costing NYRA an estimated $12 million. That sum couldn't be made up with additional races.

However, other summer meets such as Del Mar and Monmouth were down this year, while Saratoga held steady, Nader said. 'When you look at the big picture, we have to be very pleased,' he said.
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=5582 (http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=5582)
Saratoga concludes successful meetSaratoga concluded its 138th season of racing on Labor Day with the nation's top averages in daily attendance, purses, on-track wagering and all-sources wagering. "It was a very successful season in every category," NYRA President and CEO Charlie Hayward said. "The quality of racing was sensational, worthy of Saratoga's high standard, and we had the opportunity to see many of the best horses in the world compete in our major races. Once again, the Saratoga Race Course meeting lived up to its reputation as the finest and most popular in North America."

The New York Racing Association reported the Saratoga meet showed a slight increase in average daily attendance. On-track wagering was down less than 1 percent compared to last year, averaging $3.23 million per day. All sources daily average handle increased 4.9 percent, from $14.946 million to $15.682 million. For the second time in history, purse distribution topped the $23 million mark, averaging a new record of $676,437 to lead all racetracks in North America.http://www.eisinc.com/release/storiesh/EMOWER.022.html (http://www.eisinc.com/release/storiesh/EMOWER.022.html)
SARATOGA ATTENDANCE FIGURES SHOW WE NEED TO DO BETTER

News from Empire RacingSARATOGA SPRINGS, NY -- (09/05/2006; 1530)(EIS) -- Disappointing attendance figures from the Saratoga Race Course meet strengthen the case that a new operator is needed to run the state's three thoroughbred race tracks at Saratoga, Belmont Park and Aqueduct Racetrack, a leading bidder for the racing franchise said today.

Total attendance at Saratoga Race Course has fallen each year since 2003, from a peak of 1,049,309 in 2003 to 908,569 in 2006 - a total decline of 13%, according to the New York Racing Association's own figures. Total attendance at all three tracks has dropped 18% from 2003 to 2005, from 2,383,559 to 1,949, 432, according to the most recent figures available.

"We must realize Saratoga's success is not a given and in fact attendance is falling. Saratoga continues to be threatened by the very poor performance at the downstate race tracks," said Jeff Perlee, CEO of Empire Racing, which has submitted a bid for the racing franchise. "NYRA's rosy spin is betrayed by the facts. NYRA claims success yet continues to seek more money from the state to compensate for its mismanagement."

[Indulto]

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=2577554
One state takes a stand By Bill Finley Special to ESPN.com

NYRAWhile understanding that no holds are going to be barred when it comes to the campaigning and politicking for the New York racing franchise, the fact that Empire Racing blamed NYRA mismanagement for declining attendance at Saratoga was more than a bit unfair.

... The recent press release about Saratoga might also have been better received had it contained even one thought or idea as to how Empire can do a better job attracting people to the track in New York. It did not.

[Indulto]

Empire, NYRA square off PAUL POST, The Saratogian
http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17168167&BRD=1169&PAG=461&dept_id=17708&rfi=6 (http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17168167&BRD=1169&PAG=461&dept_id=17708&rfi=6)
… 'NYRA claims success yet continues to seek more money from the state to compensate for its mismanagement,' Perlee said. Last December, the state gave cash-strapped NYRA $30 million to stay afloat through 2006.

On Tuesday, a state oversight board charged with monitoring NYRA's business operations, will meet in Saratoga Springs. So far, only $11 million of the state's financial package has been released, and the board says it won't provide more until details of NYRA's deal with MGM Grand to put video lottery terminals at Aqueduct are worked out. MGM has agreed to loan NYRA $180 million to build such a facility

… Perlee also said that NYRA had an unfair advantage when preparing its bid, because it had unlimited financial resources -- taxpayer money -- to fund whatever work went into the project.

Nader said NYRA's bid was done in-house by existing staff, with little if any outside help.IMO the first bolded statement is not untrue, but misleading in that it is now a given that provision for adequate operating funds have to be a part of any bid. The second is at best a misrepresentation.

Should the bid evaluators penalize the NYRA for under-performing within constraints that no new franchisee would be subjected to?

[Indulto]

Opening day at Belmont a far cry from Spa
Downstate track draws just 3,766 fans to huge facility
By Tim Wilkin
http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=515370&category=SPORTS&newsdate=9/9/2006 (http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=515370&category=SPORTS&newsdate=9/9/2006)
…"If there were only six weeks of racing downstate and there were 46 weeks at Saratoga, it would be the reverse," said Bill Nader…

…"There is no atmosphere," said Pletcher… "Saratoga and Keeneland are the only places where people want to go to the races."

…"Saratoga is heaven on earth," said jockey Edgar Prado. "If we walked through the crowd at Belmont or Aqueduct ... believe me, we would not make it to the jockey's room."I'm surprised the writer didn't mention that when Stronach advocated increasing the number of racing days at Saratoga, he got his head handed to him - mostly by Saratoga residents, if I remember correctly.

The author also wrote, "People only show up at Belmont en masse for events like the Belmont Stakes or the Breeders' Cup."

But NOT even on Belmont Day unless the Triple Crown is on the line.

Ok, NYRA, it's time to reemphasize the Handicap Triple Crown and add a few other divisional 3-race series, e.g., 3YO Fillies to be run on the same day with bonuses for sweepers.

A sprint series, middle-distance series, and a turf series could be added as well as a dirt marathon series. The first two might even include multiple surfaces to justify bonuses. CREATE RIVALRIES to boost fan enthusiasm.

Since fans think a G1 12f on dirt at Belmont is worth showing up for at least one day a year, perhaps they'd show up for more of them. If ya got it, flaunt it!

[cj]

There is absolutely no upside to Belmont (NYRA) carding series of races with bonuses attached. You can barely get the races to fill with guys like Pletcher and Frankel controlling so many horses and scratching for seemingly no reason half the time.

I say more turf sprints and NY bred maidens is perfect. Until these guys run for the already nice purses, screw them. I want full fields, quality be damned. I'd love to see NY Bred claimers on the menu next. I'm tired of some of these guys gettting gifted purses, and I think the racing secretary is as well.

[aaron]

If you take away the 1 stake race a day,the cards at Saratoga were not much different from Belmont.
Belmont is still a great track,but NYRA cannot entice people to go.The do not do anything to make you want to go to the track.At this point I don't know if there is anything they could do.OTB's and in home simulcasting has taken care of attendance at the track.
It doesn't help that the tellers at the track are not very good at their job.
It also doesn't help that many of the betting machines do not work properly.

[Tom]

There is absolutely no upside to Belmont (NYRA) carding series of races with bonuses attached. You can barely get the races to fill with guys like Pletcher and Frankel controlling so many horses and scratching for seemingly no reason half the time.

I say more turf sprints and NY bred maidens is perfect. Until these guys run for the already nice purses, screw them. I want full fields, quality be damned. I'd love to see NY Bred claimers on the menu next. I'm tired of some of these guys gettting gifted purses, and I think the racing secretary is as well.

NYRA has hundreds of $3500 claimers on the grounds - they just run for $10,000-$14,000.
Start carding $5,000 NW2 lifetimes, NYB claimers, turf sprints, marathods - how often fo they run a mile and a half race at that mile and a half track?
The old starter allowance series at long distances was always a field filler.
And limit the number of stakes.
How aout this - a bonus for trainers who have another horse run the same day. If you run two horses on a card, you get an extra pointof two of the purses if you finish in a monry spot. Might even encourage more shippers.

[highnote]

Since fans think a G1 12f on dirt at Belmont is worth showing up for at least one day a year, perhaps they'd show up for more of them. If ya got it, flaunt it!
[/color]

I agree. In Europe 12 furlong dirt / all weather surface races are common. I even see a lot of races at longer distances 1 5/8, 2 miles, etc. I think those are a lot of fun to watch. They become tactical races. Sprints are tactical, too, but not as much as marathons.

Hell, maybe they should bring back match races with 4 mile heats -- best 2 out of 3. They used to have a lot of those back in the 1800s. If the breed has improved then the horses should have no trouble getting the distance.

Maybe something unusual would increase fan interest? I know I'd be interested in those races. I love that 12 furlong optional claiming race they sometimes have on Belmont Stakes day.

[PlanB]

I don't think anything will increase fan interest if THAT means more fans at
the racetrack. Maybe slots will increase the body count but fans actually
going to the track is not gonna happen. The industry should face that and
make their product far more interesting for COMPUTER/INTERNET/TV betting.
Efforts to protect "their" product & "their" data just doesn't work. Lure
bettors with a better presentation; get some H'wood types to jazz up
simucasts etc. Of course, politicians meddle & we know how effective they are.

[GMB@BP]

NYRA has hundreds of $3500 claimers on the grounds - they just run for $10,000-$14,000.
Start carding $5,000 NW2 lifetimes, NYB claimers, turf sprints, marathods - how often fo they run a mile and a half race at that mile and a half track?
The old starter allowance series at long distances was always a field filler.
And limit the number of stakes.
How aout this - a bonus for trainers who have another horse run the same day. If you run two horses on a card, you get an extra pointof two of the purses if you finish in a monry spot. Might even encourage more shippers.

I would think the average winning figure for the ny bred nw1x level is lower then the par for 10k claimers. I know the par in socal for that level is in the 80's. The maiden par is probably near the same. These "allowance" races are a bit dressed up.

[Indulto]

There is absolutely no upside to Belmont (NYRA) carding series of races with bonuses attached. You can barely get the races to fill with guys like Pletcher and Frankel controlling so many horses and scratching for seemingly no reason half the time.

I say more turf sprints and NY bred maidens is perfect. Until these guys run for the already nice purses, screw them. I want full fields, quality be damned. I'd love to see NY Bred claimers on the menu next. I'm tired of some of these guys gettting gifted purses, and I think the racing secretary is as well.CJ,
I don't think your reaction represents the average non-professional player let alone those that don't require a transatlantic flight to attend Belmont. ;)

What did you mean by the bolded statement, anyway?

Good point about Pletcher and Frankel, but bonuses don't have to be tied to graded stakes or even first place finishes for that matter. The idea is to get horses of equivalent ability to race against one another multiple times over a two month period so fans can DELIBERATE (or in my case, agonize) over a single event they can anticipate and savour with a rooting interest..

As one who still bets on-track, I enjoy concentrating on the live races. That means observing the horses in the saddling area, watching them warm up, evaluating the late prices, making an (intelligent?) wager, watching the live race, watching the replay(s), and hopefully, cashing.

From various posts of yours, I get the impression that your technique is to apply your obviously accurate figures to a large variety of events at multiple venues over which you know you have a statistical advantage. I have no idea if you ever have a rooting interest in any particular race or if anything other than the profit from your process has any significance in your racing experience.

My approach is different from yours, but not better or worse, though probably less profitable. If I still lived in NY, I would not make any effort to attend a card full of NY-bred claimers any more than I would attend a high-school basketball game over a Knicks game (unless a relative or friend were playing).

Of course the future of racing is the off-track, non-professional bettor, but on-track participants (like yourself) at Saratoga and Del Mar prove that circumstances still exist where fans will attend live racing and you'll never convince me that the quality of racing at those two venues isn't what drives the fan experience there.

[GMB@BP]

Of course the future of racing is the off-track, non-professional bettor, but on-track participants (like yourself) at Saratoga and Del Mar prove that circumstances still exist where fans will attend live racing and you'll never convince me that the quality of racing at those two venues isn't what drives the fan experience there.

I dont think quality of racing has anything to do with del mars attendance, in fact the quality has gone down the past 10 years yet attendance has gone up. Del Mar is a elongated happy hour with a vibrant night life after the races.

[Indulto]

I dont think quality of racing has anything to do with del mars attendance, in fact the quality has gone down the past 10 years yet attendance has gone up. Del Mar is a elongated happy hour with a vibrant night life after the races.Then why does DMR's largest attendance occur on days with graded stakes?

Smaller fields and lack of meaningful handicap weight assignments plague all venues. How else has quality of racing at DMR gone down over the last 10 years, especially relative to other venues?

[GMB@BP]

well of course the weekends are going to be higher.....but i dont think that changes the reason why a majority are going out there.

The other declines,

The fact that a non winners of two race on the dirt has little change to fill.

How about they can only card 1 to 2 open maiden races for each sex in the two year old division each week? This used to be a condition, as is in saratoga, that proliferated the cards.

Of course the stakes have not changed, they are still run, but with far less numbers.

[Indulto]

well of course the weekends are going to be higher...Del Mar figures slightly down By STEVE ANDERSEN
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=78415&subs=0&arc=1 (http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=78415&subs=0&arc=1)

… The average all-sources handle for 2006 was $13,548,941. Average ontrack handle fell 4.9 percent, to $2,409,223. Average ontrack attendance was 16,658, a drop of two percent from last year.

… The final averages are a slight improvement from the midway point of the meeting, when average ontrack attendance was down 4.5 percent and all-sources handle was down 6 percent.

… Overall, at least 17 horses were euthanized as a result of injuries sustained in racing or training, a trend that overshadowed the early weeks of the meeting.The following was the attendance on Pacific Classic day:

http://www.drf.com/results/20/rDMR20.html?rn=545042#9 (http://www.drf.com/results/20/rDMR20.html?rn=545042#9)
Del Mar Attendance:32039

[PaceAdvantage]

Damn, with all those decreases at that "other" premier summer meet in the USA, you'd think THEY were the ones struggling to survive financially.....not NYRA....

I guess people aren't put off by the woes of NYRA and all these "negatives" people keep reporting, as they still show up in droves....go figure.....

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey, here's another organization NOT UNDER DURESS, where folks are fleeing from with wallet in tow....perhaps if NYRA loses NY, they can go run Arlington....at least they can still put folks in the seats at places like Saratoga....you'd think with all the brouhaha going on, folks would be wary of coming to a place like Saratoga.....after all, if you read the news and some of the opinions on this board, NYRA is nothing but a bunch of hoodlums who couldn't run a flea market....

But yet they still show up in droves for Saratoga, and they still bet lots o' $$$$ on the NYRA product all year round (which boasts some of the lowest takeouts in the land, despite their financial difficulties brought on by questionable punishments for offenses not related to the racing product).

Anyway, off my soapbox for now....here's the skinny on the latest summer disappointment NOT run by NYRA....

Arlington Handle, Attendance Fall Sharply (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=35300)
The 95-day 2006 Arlington Park race meet concluded with decreases in handle and attendance compared to track's 2005 meeting. Blood-Horse (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=35300)

[kenwoodallpromos]

Maybe Sar has too high purses to make money!
AP was reported to have various problems on and off the track, plus IL weather.
Since track profit was brought up, I'm wondering how employee pay fits into expenses.

[weegee]

At NYRA, pension benefits are a huge expense. I don't know the details, but I have read that retired employees get generous benefits guaranteed by law, and I don't think it's only former executives. Similar to NYC employees getting large guaranteed pensions.

[highnote]

That probably is a big drain on cash. That is why Ford Motor Company and some of the airlines are having such troubles these days. And is also why smaller, newer airlines are so successful - like Southwest.

[46zilzal]

TAnd is also why smaller, newer airlines are so successful - like Southwest.
Newer? I travelled between San Fran and LA in the early 70's on Southwest when the planes were all pink, yellow and red.

[highnote]

Newer? I travelled between San Fran and LA in the early 70's on Southwest when the planes were all pink, yellow and red.

Maybe I got the name wrong. Anyway, we did an interview with a CEO of a newer airline recently and one of the points he made was that his company didn't have the pension liabilities of some of the other major carriers and that enabled them to keep their ticket prices lower.

[PlanB]

There are simple remedies re Pension Liabilities. I'm 27 & my employer
is incredible in that area. It's all how its structured. Most govt agencies
are NOT fiscally caring how much they spend because, "hey we can always
get the laws to finance our stupidity." ALL gov't workers, at all levels, are
over compensated in almost ever way, including pensions. Wait until the
Homeland Security costs via pensions are tallied. But this isn't new info.
OTOH, when it comes to private business, they are largely to blame for
their own greed. If they're NOW realizing how stupid they were, too bad.

[Indulto]

WG and PB,
What happens to the pensioners if NYRA loses the franchise? Wouldn't the new franchisee be responsible for those payments? If not, the value of those payments will undoubtedly wind up in the pockets of the new executives.

[Show Me the Wire]

Hey, here's another organization NOT UNDER DURESS, where folks are fleeing from with wallet in tow....perhaps if NYRA loses NY, they can go run Arlington....at least they can still put folks in the seats at places like Saratoga....you'd think with all the brouhaha going on, folks would be wary of coming to a place like Saratoga.....after all, if you read the news and some of the opinions on this board, NYRA is nothing but a bunch of hoodlums who couldn't run a flea market....

But yet they still show up in droves for Saratoga, and they still bet lots o' $$$$ on the NYRA product all year round (which boasts some of the lowest takeouts in the land, despite their financial difficulties brought on by questionable punishments for offenses not related to the racing product).

Anyway, off my soapbox for now....here's the skinny on the latest summer disappointment NOT run by NYRA....


If you don't offer competitive purses you won't attract horses, wagers or public interest.

[highnote]

NYRA should stop racing in the winter at AQU and just focus on Belmont and Saratoga. Let the cheap horses run at Meadowlands, Del, etc.
Maybe run a short all-turf early spring / late fall meeting at Aqueduct by converting all three tracks to turf.

Just do simulcasting in the winter at AQU and run slots year round.
Then the purses would be huge at BEL and SAR. There would be no equal pursewise -- maybe in the world. From Dec to Mar who really wants to stand outside looking at horses anyway. Plus, the weather in the winter is so much better in FL and SoCal than in NY.

[PaceAdvantage]

NYRA should stop racing in the winter at AQU and just focus on Belmont and Saratoga.

If you really, really want to piss off a lot of horsemen, then do exactly as you say....

Why should they stop winter racing at Aqu? Did people stop wagering on the product last year? I don't think so....in fact, many people on here LOVE winter racing at AQU....I know I'm a big fan of the inner track...always have been....

[highnote]

Once slots are in place, there should be plenty of money to go around. So it would never happen anyway. But the Big A is a big toilet. Maybe they'll spruce the place up once they have slot money.

But in my defense why waste money of fixing it up. Just stop racing there and improve purses at Bel and Sar. The increase in purses will more than make up for the loss of purses at AQU. A shortened season should increase demand for the product. There is too much racing now anyway.

Again, everyone takes the short term quick buck view rather than the long term view.

Plus, if you have a spring and fall all-turf meeting you're only losing about 3 months of racing dates. The Meadowlands is close by. Laurel's close, Del is close, Finger Lakes and Mountaineer are not out of the question.

Is there anything more depressing than a February Wednesday card at AQU?

Actually, better yet, is to have more competition for racing in NY. Why not sell AQU and BEL to different operations and let them compete for race goers. Let the free market work it's magic. Maybe AQU could switch to night racing on polytrack and BEL can keep running on afternoons when working people can't show up. Why should only one organization be granted a monopoly to run NY racing?

I do not like monopolies. They just don't work.

Why does everyone think that the NYRA is the best model and that no other possibility exists except the way it is currently being done? There are a million other better ways to run racing in NY.

Unfortunately, if making a change means making a better product, it is usually ignored.

[samyn on the green]

Is there anything more depressing than a February Wednesday card at AQU?

Yes, a wednesday in February with no Aqueduct is a sadder day.

[highnote]

Have you ever been to the track on a February Wednesday at AQU. It is dreadful. I will never ever do it again. And I will never miss it. I'd much rather stand in the paddock at Gulfstream. Or bet SoCal from home.

[PaceAdvantage]

Is there anything more depressing than a February Wednesday card at AQU?

Actually, thinking about February and Aqueduct gives me a bit of a natural high. It was in February at Aqueduct, many years ago, that I played the pick 6 with a $16 ticket (I was a relative newbie) and was alive going into the last leg. Nobody hit the pick 6 that day (myself included) and only a handful of folks cashed with the consolation. I haven't really played a pick 6 since...lol

I do not like monopolies. They just don't work.

Are you saying NYRA isn't running a sound racing product? Compared to who? Arlington? Del Mar? Last I looked, they beat both these shows in terms of attendance and handle....

Why does everyone think that the NYRA is the best model and that no other possibility exists except the way it is currently being done? There are a million other better ways to run racing in NY.

I think NYRA might be the best model (with some major tweaks) because they continually put out the best product (and by best product, I am going by betting handle....people like to bet NY racing....period....)

Until that changes, I think NYRA deserves the title of "best model"

It doesn't get any simpler than that. You can go on and on about your poor customer service examples, or the fact that Aqueduct is in need of a major overhaul to the physical plant (which is coming as soon as the damn legislature approves the MGM slot job). But bottom line remains that people bet on NY racing, and the bottom line is what counts the most.

[PaceAdvantage]

Have you ever been to the track on a February Wednesday at AQU. It is dreadful. I will never ever do it again. And I will never miss it. I'd much rather stand in the paddock at Gulfstream. Or bet SoCal from home.

The one problem with your example is that both Gulfstream and SoCal are not subject to blizzards or sub-freezing temperatures.....at this point, mankind is not able to control the weather, so I must concede you this point. GP and SoCal have a distinct atmospheric advantage when it comes to winter racing.

How did the betting handle numbers compare last year -- AQI vs. GP and AQI vs. SoCal? Anyone have the figs?

[highnote]

What I'm saying is that racing in NY can be improved. And what's so bad about trying to improve customer service or the physical plant?

The problem with monopolies is that there is not enough incentive to change.

You say it would piss off horsemen to cut back on racing days. I say think outside the box. Cutting back on racing days does not mean cutting back on number of races per year. With 9 months of racing you could have 14 race cards rather than 9. You could start the races later in the afternoon so that the west coast can bet them. You could run races at night. I think my way would actually increase the handle by at least 10%. In fact, you could have fewer racing days and more races per year. Handle would go up because of the pent up demand for the product.

The whole idea of running during the day is a throwback to racing in England. In fact, they still have their big race meetings midweek. The wealthy aristocrats do not have to work. So by having races midweek they can avoid rubbing shoulders with the working class at the track. The working man might be able to bet at the corner betting shop if he can get away at lunch time.

The established tracks in England hated the all-weather tracks when they first came online because they raced at night year-round and catered to the working people. Entrepreneurs with profit as a motive found a niche and filled it.

I think part of the reason NY doesn't race at night is because they don't have to worry about maximizing income for shareholders. If they were for profit they would probably adjust their schedule to accomodate as many bettors as possible. I know I would. I'd have twi-night racing every night with 14 or 15 races on the card. Racing would start about 4 in the afternoon and go until 10 at night. That would give the west coast plenty of races to bet on. Plus a lot of Europe would still be able to bet those races, too.

If you have a world class product, people the world over would bet it.

Lastly, with 9 months of racing and 15 race cards you'd have 2700 races to bet per year rather than the approximately 2250 you have now. That's almost 500 more races per year. Yeah, that would piss the horsemen off.

PS
I'll have you know, you're keeping me awake thinking about this. I have to be up for work in less than 4 hours. No Belmont for me tomorrow afternoon. I'll be working. LOL

[PaceAdvantage]

Nothing wrong with improving customer service or the physical plant. The question is, do you throw the baby out with the bath water to accomplish this?

And as for night racing, there are plenty of tracks out there that race at night, and they're not exactly packing them in, compared to their day racing counterparts -- wouldn't you agree?

With the advent of account wagering, whether by PC or phone, night racing is less of a requirement. All of us working stiffs can get as many bets down as we'd like, and still keep our day jobs....

[samyn on the green]

Have you ever been to the track on a February Wednesday at AQU. It is dreadful. I will never ever do it again. And I will never miss it. I'd much rather stand in the paddock at Gulfstream. Or bet SoCal from home.I go all the time especially on wednesday. I even take the subway. If you are used to suburban surondings it is most likely not your cup of tea. If you require posh surrondings Aqueduct is not the place for you either. Perhaps a mall would suit you.

I grew up around Aqueduct and worked at JFK for years so it is no big deal for me to hang at Aqueduct. It is a safe place no matter what a suburban person may think. Have not seen any incidents. What I like most about Aqueduct is that the grandstand overhangs the paddock. I can sit in the Grandstand front row on the third floor and hawk the horses in the paddock for the whole entire time they enter the paddock till the time they go in the gate. It really is a great spot to play horses, a hidden gem that few know about. It is easy to spot short steppers, sore horses, depressed body language and unruly behavior when you are looking through the binocs for the lenth of time that grandstand perch allows you to view.

Yes it is lonely and quiet at the duck, but I only blame the public for missing out on the racing and spending their time on mindless activities like watching TV or goign to the mall. I know I am in a select group but i regard Aqueduct as a New York winter gem.

[highnote]

And the other thing that would be good about an actual 9 month racing season, besides having more races per year, the horsemen would probably appreciate being able to earn their income in 9 months and then resting themselves and their horses in the off season. Or if they chose to they could race at other tracks.

The reason other tracks don't pack them in at night is because they are racing lower quality stock. It's all about the quality of the horses. So I don't buy your argument. People would show up for the good horses.

I'm not saying you can't get a bet down during the day. But I doubt your sitting around reading DRF at your office desk. If racing was held at night you could focus on your job during the day and have the night free to focus on handicapping.

If NYRA raced at night, other night tracks would be in big trouble. They couldn't afford to switch to days because they'd have too low of attendance.

If NYRA raced from mid-afternoon until late at night with 15 race cards 9 months out of the year they would rule racing. Who could compete with them for those 9 months?

[highnote]

I go all the time especially on wednesday. I even take the subway. If you are used to suburban surondings it is most likely not your cup of tea. If you require posh surrondings Aqueduct is not the place for you either. Perhaps a mall would suit you.

I grew up around Aqueduct and worked at JFK for years so it is no big deal for me to hang at Aqueduct. It is a safe place no matter what a suburban person may think. Have not seen any incidents. What I like most about Aqueduct is that the grandstand overhangs the paddock. I can sit in the Grandstand front row on the third floor and hawk the horses in the paddock for the whole entire time they enter the paddock till the time they go in the gate. It really is a great spot to play horses, a hidden gem that few know about. It is easy to spot short steppers, sore horses, depressed body language and unruly behavior when you are looking through the binocs for the lenth of time that grandstand perch allows you to view.

Yes it is lonely and quiet at the duck, but I only blame the public for missing out on the racing and spending their time on mindless activities like watching TV or goign to the mall. I know I am in a select group but i regard Aqueduct as a New York winter gem.

You're right about the paddock. It is second only to Belmont's. It offers great views of the horses. Monmouth is good, too. Saratoga is awful.

I spent many a cold afternoon at Aqueducts paddock. I never had any problems with getting mugged or stuff like that. Always felt safe. And you're right that it is great for the handicapper. The problem is, no one shows up there. It's good for people like you or me, but we are not typical. All I'm saying is that it could be improved by an order of "Magnatude" (there I go again. Sorry couldn't resist). NYRA has not done enough to improve the product. The horsemen deserve better. The fans deserve better.

[samyn on the green]

.

If NYRA raced from mid-afternoon until late at night with 15 race cards 9 months out of the year they would rule racing. Who could compete with them for those 9 months?How are they going to fill these races? There are only a limited amount of people have the interest or captial to become an owner.

The decision to race for 9 months or year round in not in NYRA's court. The NYSRWB mandates that NYRA races year round. It is not that easy to make changes in this state. You would have to grease many a polititician to make these changes.

Racing fans don't like change, leave it all the same. If you like change watch football or nascar. They change to rules every year in those mindless games.

It is an unknown if night racing would generate more handle than daytime racing. It could be that twilight racing would be a huge flop and a curcuit like MD or KY could capitialize on the foolishness of moving the NY signal to the evening. Maybe a twilight first post could be a success, but if you want hard numbers compare Monmouth to Meadowlands, that should be a good gage of day vs night racing on the same curcuit.

From my point of view racing interupting my dinner with my family would be a huge disaster. 1-6PM is my time to make money playing ponies, it has been like that forever and racefans resist change. If I liked change I would be into the WNBA or AFL or whatever new sports league the networks are touting on TV. 6P-8P is the time for all of us to set down together to break bread, not break off a pick 4. This is a very important time and not a time to bet races.

[highnote]

How are they going to fill these races?

By making racing seasonal, increasing purses, and increasing the number and types of races I'm sure they would fill. The cheaper claiming races early in the card would have higher purses than similar claiming races at other venues. Maybe $20,000 for a $5,000 claiming race of NY Breds. Believe me, those would fill and ownership would increase.

There are only a limited amount of people have the interest or captial to become an owner.

See previous point.

The decision to race for 9 months or year round in not in NYRA's court. The NYSRWB mandates that NYRA races year round. It is not that easy to make changes in this state. You would have to grease many a polititician to make these changes.

Those meddling politicians. Why should year-round racing be mandated? So NYOTB has a product? I don't know why it is mandated. Seems stupid and short-sighted. The old quick-buck factor at work.

Racing fans don't like change, leave it all the same.

That's because racing fans are all old people. (like me :D ) Racing still needs to attract young people.

If you like change watch football or nascar. They change to rules every year in those mindless games.

That's absurd. They are no more mindless than running in a circle.


It is an unknown if night racing would generate more handle than daytime racing. It could be that twilight racing would be a huge flop and a curcuit like MD or KY could capitialize on the foolishness of moving the NY signal to the evening. Maybe a twilight first post could be a success, but if you want hard numbers compare Monmouth to Meadowlands, that should be a good gage of day vs night racing on the same curcuit.

Good points. A study would definately have to made. Or maybe just try it and see what happens.

From my point of view racing interupting my dinner with my family would be a huge disaster. 1-6PM is my time to make money playing ponies, it has been like that forever and racefans resist change.

With 15 races on the card, you would have plenty of time for family and gambling.


6P-8P is the time for all of us to set down together to break bread, not break off a pick 4. This is a very important time and not a time to bet races.

Under my tenure as racing Czar you would have from 4-6 to bet races and then from 8-10. You'd only miss some cheap maiding claiming NY Bred fillies from 6-8. :D

[Indulto]

SJ and SOTG,
What this board (world?) needs is more such entertaining debates between articulate veteran racing fans.

Given the current apparent frailty of the breed, it seems unlikely that more thoroughbred races would fill over a compressed period. Even if they eventually did through an expanded owner base, the quality of the fields would drop precipitously.

I do agree it's necessary to think outside the box to attract new fans, but why lose old ones in the process. Compromise is required until old farts like myself can be replaced by new ones.

I don't believe that increasing the number of cheap races has the potential for increasing overall handle that graded stakes have with expanded viewing, optimal scheduling, and convenvient secure in-home wagering access. That is what will bring in money from new fans. Cheapening NY racing will only transfer bettor dollars to to better races eleswhere.

As cable TV continues to take viewers away from "free broadcasting," it seems as if it should be possible to obtain highly-profitable prime-time broadcastung slots for televising several hundred optimally-scheduled graded stakes from all venues which would be accessible to ALL including fans-to-be.

Theoretically, it should be possible to televise, advertise, and provide commentary on 4 high quality races in 90 minutes 3 times a week for 36 of 52 weeks a year. Add in full Saturdays to include the Triple Crown races, Breeders' Cup Races, and to showcase statebred racing in CA, FL, NY, MD (and others with suffient volume) to attract new owners.

State-bred maidens and claimers aren't the future of racing as we know/knew it.

[Tom]

I'd be happy if NYRA could figure out how to get 5 horse fileds for stakes races. Frankly, if they ran at night, they would not make my list of play tracks - so many more GOOD tracks running now at night.

[highnote]

SJ and SOTG,
What this board (world?) needs is more such entertaining debates between articulate veteran racing fans.

Veteran fans? Is that a nice way of saying I'm old!


Given the current apparent frailty of the breed, it seems unlikely that more thoroughbred races would fill over a compressed period.

I disagree. Since you'd be giving the horses some time off for the winter, they should have time to heal and be healthier to run throughout the season. Not only that, what owner doesn't want to race at Belmont or Saratoga. Could you imagine a racing card at Saratoga that starts at 10 in the morning and goes until 8 or 9 at night. A full day of racing. Less money being sent to Del Mar for their product.


Even if they eventually did through an expanded owner base, the quality of the fields would drop precipitously.

I disagree partially. The whole idea is to fill the early races with cheaper races to fill a 15 race card. With only 9 months to have stakes races you'd have more good races throughout the season. With 12 months of stakes races it becomes necessary to spread the stakes races across three extra months. I think concentration of stakes is better -- like Saratoga. All those stakes races is what helps make it a success. If you had more claimers at Saratoga, I'm not sure the meeting would be as successful. It might be, though. It is a destination spot.

I do agree it's necessary to think outside the box to attract new fans, but why lose old ones in the process. Compromise is required until old farts like myself can be replaced by new ones.

If you had 15 race cards with the good races on the latter half of the card I don't think you'd lose very many fans. Argentina has successfully been running 12 to 15 race cards for years. So my suggestion is not untried and not unheard of.

I don't believe that increasing the number of cheap races has the potential for increasing overall handle that graded stakes have with expanded viewing, optimal scheduling, and convenvient secure in-home wagering access. That is what will bring in money from new fans.

NY will not only be increasing the number of cheap races, they will also be increasing the number of stakes races and also compressing them into a 9 month period. Think of it as Saratoga on steroids. With an extra 500 races in a 9 month period rather than 12, a lot of those extra 500 races will be stakes races -- maybe 10% -- one every 1.5 days. So those extra stakes races will drive handle.



Cheapening NY racing will only transfer bettor dollars to to better races eleswhere.

I think those cheaper races earlier in the card will actually bring more interest to the later races. They are a primer for the card.

As cable TV continues to take viewers away from "free broadcasting," it seems as if it should be possible to obtain highly-profitable prime-time broadcastung slots for televising several hundred optimally-scheduled graded stakes from all venues which would be accessible to ALL including fans-to-be.

Totally agree. France shows the race of the day live on TV everyday. As Mark Cramer says, "That is the mark of a civilized society." Not only should the best race of the day be live on TV, but you should be able to buy a Quintfecta or Octfecta (first 5 or first 8 finishers) for the race at the local lotto retailer. This nationally televised race linked to national wagering on a lotto type bet that is as convenient as buying a lottery ticket would really be successful. Some of the money could go to charity -- just like lotto.



Theoretically, it should be possible to televise, advertise, and provide commentary on 4 high quality races in 90 minutes 3 times a week for 36 of 52 weeks a year. Add in full Saturdays to include the Triple Crown races, Breeders' Cup Races, and to showcase statebred racing in CA, FL, NY, MD (and others with suffient volume) to attract new owners.

Agreed.

State-bred maidens and claimers aren't the future of racing as we know/knew it.

Agreed. But the NY Owners and Breeders would love it. And I'm for anything that will help the horsemen and fans. Using Aqueduct for all turf racing would make lots of grass races available for cheaper horses. That's one thing that owners of cheap horses have difficulty finding -- a grass race for a 5 or 10 thousand dollar claimer.

[Indulto]

Veteran fans? Is that a nice way of saying I'm old!You sound as if you've been around a bit. If the shoe fits ...I disagree. Since you'd be giving the horses some time off for the winter, they should have time to heal and be healthier to run throughout the season. Not only that, what owner doesn't want to race at Belmont or Saratoga. Could you imagine a racing card at Saratoga that starts at 10 in the morning and goes until 8 or 9 at night. A full day of racing. Less money being sent to Del Mar for their product.If DMR were able to put on a better card than SAR they would get the larger share.I disagree partially. The whole idea is to fill the early races with cheaper races to fill a 15 race card. With only 9 months to have stakes races you'd have more good races throughout the season. With 12 months of stakes races it becomes necessary to spread the stakes races across three extra months. I think concentration of stakes is better -- like Saratoga. All those stakes races is what helps make it a success. If you had more claimers at Saratoga, I'm not sure the meeting would be as successful. It might be, though. It is a destination spot.The number of graded stakes can't arbitrarally be expanded which us what SAR is all about. That and open races for well-bred maidens.If you had 15 race cards with the good races on the latter half of the card I don't think you'd lose very many fans. Argentina has successfully been running 12 to 15 race cards for years. So my suggestion is not untried and not unheard of.How many exotics were/are part of the mix there and to what degree did/do they have OTB access? IMO today's players are more selective, especially off-track players who feel exotics offer greater value.NY will not only be increasing the number of cheap races, they will also be increasing the number of stakes races and also compressing them into a 9 month period. Think of it as Saratoga on steroids. With an extra 500 races in a 9 month period rather than 12, a lot of those extra 500 races will be stakes races -- maybe 10% -- one every 1.5 days. So those extra stakes races will drive handle. I think those cheaper races earlier in the card will actually bring more interest to the later races. They are a primer for the card.My guess is that few on-track attendees would have the stamina for 15 races on a regular basis. SAR patrons with kids sure wouldn’t. In any case, the off-track/in-home players will be more selective and the effect on overall handle may not be what you anticipate. Totally agree. France shows the race of the day live on TV everyday. As Mark Cramer says, "That is the mark of a civilized society." Not only should the best race of the day be live on TV, but you should be able to buy a Quintfecta or Octfecta (first 5 or first 8 finishers) for the race at the local lotto retailer. This nationally televised race linked to national wagering on a lotto type bet that is as convenient as buying a lottery ticket would really be successful. Some of the money could go to charity -- just like lotto.Increased exposure is the key to expansion. The NFL, NBA, MLB, tennis, Golf, and NASCAR proved that. Too bad the NTRA, i.e., the "friendsmith," thought “Go Baby Go” was the answer. Agreed. But the NY Owners and Breeders would love it. And I'm for anything that will help the horsemen and fans. Using Aqueduct for all turf racing would make lots of grass races available for cheaper horses. That's one thing that owners of cheap horses have difficulty finding -- a grass race for a 5 or 10 thousand dollar claimer.I too would like to see more open turf routes for cheaper horses along with turf and dirt marathons.

I still don't understand the value of restricting conditions to state-breds as opposed to enhancing the purses distributed to state-bred owners. I guess it's more desirable to have a photo in the winner's circle than to aquire an additional runner and/or cash a larger mutual. State-bred incentives don't have to be based on placing, but perhaps no. starts during meet, surface/distance switches, etc.

[highnote]

[color=black]You sound as if you've been around a bit. If the shoe fits ...

Unfortunately, it fits better all the time.



f DMR were able to put on a better card than SAR they would get the larger share.The number of graded stakes can't arbitrarally be expanded which us what SAR is all about.

I think people would still show up for stakes with big purses -- graded or not.


That and open races for well-bred maidens.

Definately


How many exotics were/are part of the mix there and to what degree did/do they have OTB access? IMO today's players are more selective, especially off-track players who feel exotics offer greater value.

The more exotics the better, in my opinion.



My guess is that few on-track attendees would have the stamina for 15 races on a regular basis. SAR patrons with kids sure wouldn’t.
You're right about that. But no one says a patron has to go for the whole day. That's the beauty of it. In fact, attendence could go up because you might get patron turnover during the card -- the early crowd and the late crowd.



In any case, the off-track/in-home players will be more selective and the effect on overall handle may not be what you anticipate.

Possibly. The only way to know is to try. Sadly. you and I know it'll never happen.



Increased exposure is the key to expansion. The NFL, NBA, MLB, tennis, Golf, and NASCAR proved that.

Definately. NHL missed the boat on TV deals, too. And it has cost them dearly.


I too would like to see more open turf routes for cheaper horses along with turf and dirt marathons.

I love the ultra-marathons. Why not have 4 mile heats like they did back in the 1890's at Saratoga? Pro sports team wear throwback uniforms. There is now a throwback baseball league. Why not try some old horseracing ideas from the time when racing WAS THE NATIONAL SPORT!


I still don't understand the value of restricting conditions to state-breds as opposed to enhancing the purses distributed to state-bred owners. I guess it's more desirable to have a photo in the winner's circle than to aquire an additional runner and/or cash a larger mutual. State-bred incentives don't have to be based on placing, but perhaps no. starts during meet, surface/distance switches, etc.

Lots of room for improvement in state bred programs.

[highnote]

The state has loaned NYRA money that is to be repaid from future VLT revenues. Reading between the lines, if I had to wager, I would put my money on NYRA having it's franchise renewed.

[Indulto]

How many exotics were/are part of the mix there and to what degree did/do they have OTB access? IMO today's players are more selective, especially off-track players who feel exotics offer greater value. The more exotics the better, in my opinion.Sorry, I meant for you to reference the availability of exotics and OTB to the patrons of those 12+ race cards in South America.You're right about that. But no one says a patron has to go for the whole day. That's the beauty of it. In fact, attendence could go up because you might get patron turnover during the card -- the early crowd and the late crowd.I think the expanded operational expenses and early event apathy would kill it. You might have conjured up a real anomoly -- races that horseplayers would be willing to pass en masse. ;) Possibly. The only way to know is to try. Sadly. you and I know it'll never happen.That’s for sure! Just getting them to experiment at all is an event in itself. And when they do, what do they give us – The Grand Slam.:(

[highnote]

[font=Verdana]Sorry, I meant for you to reference the availability of exotics and OTB to the patrons of those 12+ race cards in South America.

They have just about the same type of bets we have here. There is a population of 33 million in Buenos Aires, but the handle is miniscule. I think soccer and polo are more popular. Plus, betting doesn't seem to be as much a part of their culture as in England -- or even the U.S.

I think the expanded operational expenses and early event apathy would kill it.

I think it would cost less to run. Putting on 15 races in one day versus 18 races in two days should be cheaper. Plus, for 3 months out of the year their would be no racing. That would surely cut down costs.


You might have conjured up a real anomoly -- races that horseplayers would be willing to pass en masse. ;)

That's hard to believe. I've bet some pretty bad races in my time. :D

[highnote]

According to this tbred times article below the winner of the bid to run racing in NY gets a 20 year contract. That sounds to me like NY state owns the racetracks, right?

What if NY state said there will be no more racing in NY? What would happen to the land and physical plants? Would they be sold? If so, who would get the money?

The big question is how much is a 20-year contract worth?

This is such a mess. The best outcome that I can see if for NYRA to retain the contract. That way there is an additional 20 years to figure out this mess.

However, if I'm a losing bidder I would sue the state. Something about this seems unconstitutional. I'm not a legal person by any means. But something about this entire situation seems like it is operating outside the bounds of legal precedents. On the other hand, maybe this whole situation is all about setting legal precedents?

I think it will ultimately come down to power and influence. I don't think the winning bid will ultimately go to the highest bidder. Maybe it shouldn't depending on the circumstances? Fascinating drama.

http://thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=66493&subsec=1

"New York Racing Association's franchise expires on December 31, 2007. NYRA and three other firms have submitted bids, hoping to win a 20-year contract to run Saratoga Race Course, Belmont Park, and Aqueduct. NYRA's challengers are Empire Racing Associates, Excelsior Racing Associates, and Australia's Capital Play Pty. Ltd."