August 22 and Iran [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

BenDiesel26

08-12-2006, 09:00 PM

What do all people think of this? I can only pray to God that Iran does not have a nuke. But they have a president that has vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. We all know Iranian soldiers have been found in both Lebanon and Iraq. August 22nd has all of this significance in Islam as this 12th Imam guy or whatever, some apocalyptic type stuff, as well as some so-called connections to Muhamed floating to heaven from a mosque in Jerusalem among a 'lighted' sky. Well the Iranian president has openly stated that on August 22nd the Jerusalem skies would be lit up like 'never before.' He has told the world that he would answer their negotiations on his nuclear program on this date. He has been in North Korea witnessing missle launchings and further Syria has began to clear their border of landmines, possibly to slide missle launchers into Lebanon and bombard Israel on this date? Furthermore, a woman on Fox News claims that this is just Iran's intentions (nuking Israel) and that they are in the process this very second of building bunkers in thier major cities right now in efforts to thwart any retaliation. The guy offering the counterpoint refutes that Iran has a nuke, but says that if they do and should decide to use it, regardless of the damage it causes to Israel that Israel would turn the country of Iran into cinder within hours.

What do people think of this crap? I can only pray they don't have a nuke and that they also aren't dumb enough to use any type of chemical or biological weapons, which they do have. But you can never trust a bunch of wackos that believe things such as US soldiers having x-ray goggles so that they can look at their women's underwear. This Iranian president is a nut job and he needs to be killed immediately. I wish the Kurdish movement for freedom and equality for women in Iran can continue to build power, but if the dude really has a nuke 10 days is surely not enough time for such a small resistance group to build any kind of power to overthrow a wacko goverment run by Adolph Hitler, Jr who denies the Holocaust.

Secretariat

08-12-2006, 09:10 PM

BenDiesel26

08-12-2006, 09:29 PM

If he really has a nuke, this cease-fire has absolutely nothing to do with him using it. The guy believes that he can set forth the Islamic apocalypse that results in world domination for Muslims. He truly believes this. He has said:

1. The holocaust never existed
2. He plans to wipe Israel off the face of the earth
3. Isreal has "pushed the button" to their own demise
4. There will be lights in the sky like Jerusalem has never seen before on August 22nd
5. The world will "get their answer" on the nuclear issue on this date

Iran set into action the plan for Hezbollah to do what they did and start this conflict in attempt to take the worlds eyes off of their country, no reporter in the world has denied that they are behind it (except for Al-Jazeera of course). So far everything has played right into their hands. The plans are to have ongoing conflict on that date, but the guy is Adolph Hitler. It does not matter to him. The difference you see between an Islamic extremist having a nuke and Isreal having a nuke is that once the extremist gets it they plan to use it immediately. They want Isrealies to die. If the capabilities of Hezbollah and Isreal were reversed, Isreal would be a pile of rubble right now. There would be no fliers warning citizens to get out, because they are the targets (just like with the rockets currently being fired--citizens are purposely being targeted). Its a shame Israel has displaced so many citizens, but if thats what they were really trying to do they could have displaced every single Lebanese citizen in the whole country by well over two weeks ago if they had wanted to. They could have built a shopping mall over top of Lebanon by now if they were really attempting to kill the Lebanese citizens. If Hezbollah had the capability to do that to Isreal, it would have already been done. I don't know why people choose to close their eyes and act as if this is not true. Nasrallah has made similar statements about killing Jews as the Iranian president, and by the way they are not comedians. They truly mean exactly what they say.

kenwoodallpromos

08-12-2006, 10:19 PM

Iran is playing poker just like Hussein was; He's also hoping no one calls his bluff.

Tom

08-12-2006, 10:30 PM

All in!

JustRalph

08-13-2006, 12:12 AM

If he has a Nuke...........Aug 22 will be a big day.

Steve 'StatMan'

08-13-2006, 12:32 AM

If several powers in the area believe he has nukes, and have credible intelligence regarding these August 22 allegations, then August 21st might very well be a very big day.

Would 'want' to know more before taking this seriously. Would rather this be wild speculation, and not have heard it at all. No words could describe the serious ramifications if the allegetions (are/were) actually true and in progress.

BetHorses!

08-13-2006, 01:33 AM

What is the significance of August 22? This year, August 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to 'the farthest mosque', usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (cf, Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and, if necessary, of the world."

anyone have Buraq's speed figures? :rolleyes:

kenwoodallpromos

08-13-2006, 02:38 AM

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/templemount.html
I believe this wensite is Jewish, but denies claim of Jeruselum in the account- says Medina more likely.
Winged equine was half mule and half donkey (immaculate donkey conception?); we know mules cannot reproduce.

BenDiesel26

08-13-2006, 09:36 AM

Here's an article describing the whole thing somewhat. There are better ones describing the whole religious aspect of the Hidden Imam, or whatever it is, but I don't feel like finding them again.

Article (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008768)

Steve 'StatMan'

08-13-2006, 10:00 AM

Thanks for the links!

so.cal.fan

08-13-2006, 12:12 PM

I was watching Fox Business news Saturday morning, and Ben Stein offered a scary prediction....nuke war between Israel and Iran. He thinks it is going to happen.
Man, is this going to crash the stock market tomorrow?
I don't think anyone can predict the future (horseracing is a good example)....however.....it is obvious there is a real danger here.
What would be the effect of a nuke in the Middle East?
Short term, long term?
Any scientists on board with a clue?

JustRalph

08-13-2006, 01:45 PM

Any scientists on board with a clue?

You don't need to be a scientist for the short term questions.......just ask which way the wind is blowing from ground zero.........and watch radiation effect everything downwind for the next 500 miles...........

so.cal.fan

08-13-2006, 01:52 PM

Ben Stein's theory is that Israel is positive Iran will nuke them and take the entire country out, another Hollocost of epic proportions.
They will take out the nuke as soon as they are sure Iran is capable to strike, even it they have to nuke it. There reason would be....if they didn't do it, the country of Israel would be destroyed.
Do you think this is a possiblility, Ralph?

Pgh. Gere

08-13-2006, 02:33 PM

anyone have Buraq's speed figures? :rolleyes:

He reached a 3yo top on that date, Rajab 1427, has yet to get back to that #, but apparently has an exploding line.

Seriously though, thanks for the info/explanation on the significance of 8/22.

Show Me the Wire

08-13-2006, 03:00 PM

JustRalph

08-13-2006, 07:26 PM

Do you think this is a possiblility, Ralph?

I think if he has a working Nuke. He would be prone to use it. He wants to fulfill a prophecy. To go along with that thought, I don't think he has one working yet. If so, Israel would have bombed him already. I trust their intelligence more than ours. I also think we have satellites oriented over them about ten times a day........and tons of Israeli agents on the ground. Hopefully between the two........we get plenty of warning.

BenDiesel26

08-13-2006, 10:11 PM

BetHorses!

08-13-2006, 10:29 PM

He reached a 3yo top on that date, Rajab 1427, has yet to get back to that #, but apparently has an exploding line.

Seriously though, thanks for the info/explanation on the significance of 8/22.

:D

Wish I can take credit but I took it from the following article

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_whitaker/2006/08/world_to_end_on_august_22.html

BetHorses!

08-13-2006, 10:49 PM

I think if he has a working Nuke. He would be prone to use it. He wants to fulfill a prophecy. To go along with that thought, I don't think he has one working yet. If so, Israel would have bombed him already. I trust their intelligence more than ours. I also think we have satellites oriented over them about ten times a day........and tons of Israeli agents on the ground. Hopefully between the two........we get plenty of warning.

Not so sure about the intelligence these days, you have to believe the mossad was caught off guard with the amount of rockets in Lebanon.

I do agree with you concerning the nuke, if they have a working nuke they would be killing each other over who would be strapping it on.

Secretariat

08-13-2006, 11:50 PM

Question . The question is based on the Shiite's belief of the 12th imam and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's stated commitment to this belief.

This question is pointed towards our democratic apologists. In your replies please refrain from blaming current or past administrations, since this is an issue about religious beliefs and fulfilling the religious belief, not political beliefs.

How effective is diplomacy when you have a religious fanatic national leader believing violence will usher in a golden age of prosperity for Islam?

Looking forward to your replies.

First, some basic info.

From the UK Telegraph

"All streams of Islam believe in a divine saviour, known as the Mahdi, who will appear at the End of Days. A common rumour - denied by the government but widely believed - is that Mr Ahmadinejad and his cabinet have signed a "contract" pledging themselves to work for the return of the Mahdi and sent it to Jamkaran."

"Iran's dominant "Twelver" sect believes this will be Mohammed ibn Hasan, regarded as the 12th Imam, or righteous descendant of the Prophet Mohammad.

He is said to have gone into "occlusion" in the ninth century, at the age of five. His return will be preceded by cosmic chaos, war and bloodshed. After a cataclysmic confrontation with evil and darkness, the Mahdi will lead the world to an era of universal peace.

This is similar to the Christian vision of the Apocalypse. Indeed, the Hidden Imam is expected to return in the company of Jesus."

...

Ok, now to your question. (btw..I am surprised Mike Wallace did not ask the President of Iran this tonight on 60 minutes..was a fascinating interview otherwise).

Your question:

"How effective is diplomacy when you have a religious fanatic national leader believing violence will usher in a golden age of prosperity for Islam?"

We don't know how effective diplomacy would be because as the President of Iran stated the US and iran have not talked for 27 years. He sent a letter to the President which ws not responded to. The President of Iran distrusts the US as a supplier of weapons to Israel. In fact he called the US, the Great Oppressor, in the interview becasue they oppress the Palestians.

He made on interesting point (and beleive me i think the guy is a dangerous egomaniac). He said "if" the Holocaust occurred in Germany, and the Germans were the oppressors of the Jewish people, then why wasn't a part of Germany made a homeland to the Jews. He states instead the Palestinians were oppressed by stealing their land. I had never thought about why the Germans would not have had their land taken for the state of Israel since they were the cause of the problems at Auschwitz, Buchenwald, etc. It was an interesting statement.

I don't trust the guy at all, but he basically stated as a nation he has the right to pursue nucelar energy for his nation. That Pakistan or the US is not under the same restrictions of international inspections.

But I digress, back to the religous questions. This is one of those "end of Days" issues like the Apocalypse in Revelations. Frankly, I think all such types of discussions can lead to wish fulfillment, and are dangerous. The President of iran mgiht reply to your question though with this question:

"How effective is diplomacy when you have a religious fanatic national leader believing violence will usher in a golden age of prosperity for an enforced Democracy coming from a Christian nation that supports anything the Jewish nation of Israel does?"

Would I agree with that. No, but it shows how far the divide is. Right now, the End of Days issue worries me, but I would like to see first a direct link to your supposition that "Mr Ahmadinejad and his cabinet have signed a "contract" pledging themselves to work for the return of the Mahdi and sent it to Jamkaran."

Indulto

08-14-2006, 12:02 AM

Not so sure about the intelligence these days, you have to believe the mossad was caught off guard with the amount of rockets in Lebanon.BH,
IMO the mossad was not caught off guard, and that their accurate intelligence was the basis for Israel's reaction to the kidnappings before things got worse. Doesn't the relatively low civilian casualties relative to the number of rockets launched at Israel suggest their intelligence was good?

It is in Hezbollah's interest to minimize their own casualties. I belive the Israelis knew that Hezbollah had improved it's military training and was prepared for the military casualties it suffered. I would believe the Israeli accounts of Hezbollah fighters killed is closer to the truth.

Indulto

08-14-2006, 12:30 AM

... He made on interesting point (and beleive me i think the guy is a dangerous egomaniac). He said "if" the Holocaust occurred in Germany, and the Germans were the oppressors of the Jewish people, then why wasn't a part of Germany made a homeland to the Jews. He states instead the Palestinians were oppressed by stealing their land. I had never thought about why the Germans would not have had their land taken for the state of Israel since they were the cause of the problems at Auschwitz, Buchenwald, etc. It was an interesting statement.Sec,
I think that line of reasoning has been around since the U.N. first considered the concept of a Jewish homeland. The President of Iran put on a good show, but that was his own interpreter you heard. BTW the Jewish Defense League protested CBS' airing of the Mike Wallace interview in L.A. today. I heard a radio interview with some of the protestors. They didn't exactly "strike" me as well-educated."How effective is diplomacy when you have a religious fanatic national leader believing violence will usher in a golden age of prosperity for an enforced Democracy coming from a Christian nation that supports anything the Jewish nation of Israel does?"Iranian Dissident Urges Caution By Teresa Watanabe, Times Staff Writer
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ganji13aug13,0,4880679.story?coll=la-home-local (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ganji13aug13,0,4880679.story?coll=la-home-local)

“For six long years, Akbar Ganji wasted away in an Iranian jail, suffering torture and solitary confinement for promoting democracy and criticizing leaders of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

… In interviews, talks with scholars and an appearance last week … Ganji pressed his view that U.S. military intervention and funding of dissidents would only give the Iranian regime an excuse for further crackdowns.

…The most promising path to democracy in the Middle East, he said, is to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and eliminate the poverty, desperation and despotic governments that he said have allowed extremism to flourish.

…in Los Angeles, where the largest population of Iranians outside Iran resides, Ganji is not universally embraced. The community here, known as "Irangeles," includes some of the nation's most vocal advocates of aggressive steps to topple the Islamic regime.

… Ganji affirmed Israel's right to statehood, condemned suicide bombings and castigated Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's vow to destroy the Jewish state. But he also called for nuclear disarmament of the entire region, a just solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem and resistance to Islamic, Christian and Jewish fundamentalism, which he said is stoking the regional conflicts.

… A Tehran native, Ganji said only that he became disillusioned with the Islamic regime when he began to see it was no less despotic than the shah's, featuring "executions, violence, injustice."

"We had intended to create a paradise and rather we created a hell," he said.

Ganji's first public criticism of the Islamic regime came in a 1987 article asserting that it was headed toward fascism; he was jailed for six months for it..

… He was arrested again in 2000, following his participation in a pro-reform conference in Berlin. He was eventually accused of damaging national security and "spreading propaganda," and given a six-year prison sentence.”

Indulto

08-14-2006, 03:21 AM

BH,
Apparently there WAS a gap in Israeli intelligence:

'The Best Guerrilla Force in the World' By Edward Cody and Molly MooreWashington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/13/AR2006081300719.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/13/AR2006081300719.html)

“Hezbollah's irregular fighters stood off the modern Israeli army for a month in the hills of southern Lebanon thanks to extraordinary zeal and secrecy, rigorous training, tight controls over the population, and a steady flow of Iranian money to acquire effective weaponry, according to informed assessments in Lebanon and Israel.

… Because Hezbollah was entrenched in friendly Shiite-inhabited villages and underground bunkers constructed in secret over several years, a withering Israeli air campaign and a tank-led ground assault were unable to establish full control over a border strip and sweep it clear of Hezbollah guerrillas.

… The group's battlefield resilience also came from an unusual combination of zeal and disciplined military science

… The fighters' Islamic faith and intense indoctrination reduced their fear of death, he noted, giving them an advantage in close-quarters combat and in braving airstrikes to move munitions from post to post. Hezbollah leaders also enhanced fighters' willingness to risk death by establishing the Martyr's Institute, with an office in Tehran, that guarantees living stipends and education fees for the families of fighters who die on the front.

… The Hezbollah arsenal, … was paid for with a war chest kept full by relentless fundraising among Shiites around the world and, in particular, by funds provided by Iran, … The amount of Iranian funds reaching Hezbollah was estimated at $25 million a month, but some reports suggested it increased sharply, perhaps doubled, after Mahmoud Ahmadinejad took over as president in Tehran last year

… "I think it's no secret that the Israeli military didn't have the intelligence on this," said Richard Straus, who publishes the Middle East Policy Survey newsletter in Washington. "They didn't know what Hezbollah had, how it had built up, what it was capable of."

… Hezbollah's resistance to penetration by Israeli intelligence was part of a culture of secrecy extreme even by the standards of underground guerrilla forces. The code fit with a tendency toward secrecy in the Shiite stream of Islam, called faqih

… A dramatic example of the secrecy and careful preparations for conflict with Israel was Hezbollah's al-Manar television. The station has kept broadcasting its mix of news and propaganda from hidden studios throughout the fighting …

JustRalph

08-14-2006, 04:56 AM

He made on interesting point (and beleive me i think the guy is a dangerous egomaniac). He said "if" the Holocaust occurred in Germany, and the Germans were the oppressors of the Jewish people, then why wasn't a part of Germany made a homeland to the Jews. He states instead the Palestinians were oppressed by stealing their land. I had never thought about why the Germans would not have had their land taken for the state of Israel since they were the cause of the problems at Auschwitz, Buchenwald, etc. It was an interesting statement.

You are kidding right? I think if you look it up, you would find that the area occupied by Israel is considered "Holy Land" in their religion. It has to do with what occurred in that area during Biblical times. I am not a Jew, maybe somebody can chime in here. I don't want to go on at the risk of winging it......but I believe that is why the Jews weren't offered any land in Germany, or Tampa for that matter.

twindouble

08-14-2006, 10:42 AM

You are kidding right? I think if you look it up, you would find that the area occupied by Israel is considered "Holy Land" in their religion. It has to do with what occurred in that area during Biblical times. I am not a Jew, maybe somebody can chime in here. I don't want to go on at the risk of winging it......but I believe that is why the Jews weren't offered any land in Germany, or Tampa for that matter.

Well, I've got a blurred picture of Palestine as well, here what I dug up. I concluded a long time ago, these tribes through out the middle east had known nothing but war for centuries, from inside and outside. The Jews consider where they are now their home land and that's where they desired to be after the 2 WW. Many thousands that attempted to immigrate to America were turned away during the war. The strategy was to defeat Hitler not to save the Jews but we knew very well what was going on. In my opinion everything that goes on in the middle east is wrapped around deep warped beliefs, including Jews and Christians. For anyone to think there's anything "HOLY" about any part of the middle east has no common sense, a mind of there own and needs a reality check. Like the rest of the world, It is and historically has been a cesspool of hatred and death. The only salvation for humanity is to discard those primitive beliefs. You all can chew on that for awhile. :eek:

The Israelite invasion of Canaan around 1200 BC, following the Exodus from Egypt as described in the Bible, is the traditional account. This date has not been confirmed by archeology and some scholars argue that the Biblical version is mere legend (although the Merneptah Stela implies Israel was well established by the end of the 13th century BC--see 'What is the evidence for the antiquity of Israel?' (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_israel_antiquity.php)). In particular, it is not clear if the early Israelite conquering of this land was an invasion from without (coming from Egypt) or more of an internal struggle between groups that inhabited the area. That is, the early Israelites may have been entirely or partially indigenous to Canaan.

Confirmed historical dates and a continuous Jewish historical record in Palestine begin with the Second Temple period, starting with the return of exiled Jews from Babylonia (roughly today's southern Iraq) in 538 BC.

T.D.

Dave Schwartz

08-14-2006, 10:51 AM

Twin,

...For anyone to think there's anything "HOLY" about any part of the middle east has no common sense, a mind of there own and needs a reality check. Like the rest of the world, It is and historically has been a cesspool of hatred and death. The only salvation for humanity is to discard those primitive beliefs. You all can chew on that for awhile.

Spoken like a true unbeliever of anything.

You certainly have your right to your own beliefs (or lack thereof).

You might as well say, "The only thing that tastes good about chocolate is in your imagination. Get over it."

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Show Me the Wire

08-14-2006, 11:19 AM

Sec:

The question is to you not the president of Iran. First step in solving a problem is the cause. You and some others are practiced at bringing up the symptoms, but never the cause. So lets address the cause of the problem

You asked for some proof of Ahmadinejad's belief in paving te way for the 12th imam.

BTW I did not allege the Iranian cabinent signed a contract pledging themselves to work for the return of the 12th imam. I only talked about the Iranian president's belief in the doctrine.

Here is some proof of the Iranian president's belief in paving the way for the 12th imam.

Reportedly during a keynote speech,to Friday Prayers leaders from across the country. in 2005 he said: "Our revolution's main mission is to pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi". (read the article http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_10945.shtml)

Now within this framework, I once again ask to our democratic apologists:

How effective is diplomacy when you have a religious fanatic national leader believing violence will usher in a golden age of prosperity for Islam?

twindouble

08-14-2006, 11:52 AM

Twin,

Spoken like a true unbeliever of anything.

You certainly have your right to your own beliefs (or lack thereof).

You might as well say, "The only thing that tastes good about chocolate is in your imagination. Get over it."

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

I would rather have the freedom of thought than bury myself in centuries old bullshit, that divides all of us. I made up my mind as a young man, not to fear anything that isn't a real threat to me or my family and I'll challenge anyone or anything that would force me into submission. That's who I am take it or leave it. I have nothing to "get over".

T.D.

Dave Schwartz

08-14-2006, 12:16 PM

twindouble

08-14-2006, 12:57 PM

Twin,

I did not mean to come across as argumentative. Sorry if it seemd so.

I was simply stating fact... that you, as an unbeliever... have a different viewpoint than someone who believes in... something.

And you are quite entitled to your viewpoint/beliefs.

My view is different but I have no need to impress my beliefs upon you.

And, as for taking you or leaving you, I'll take you. You are a valued member of this board.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Thanks Dave, now I feel like a heal with my response. I have a habit of throwing things out off the cuff. At least you know I didn't take the time to make anything up and your getting the real thing but that don't mean I'm void of any moral values. Philosophically I take what I think is good in this life, learned or experienced. Like you I don't expect everyone to think as I do.

I do think it's about time we as human beings rethink our core beliefs for the betterment of all. Maybe that's isn't possable, if so it would take a better man than I.

T.D.

Indulto

08-14-2006, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by twindouble
I would rather have the freedom of thought than bury myself in centuries old bullshit, that divides all of us. I made up my mind as a young man, not to fear anything that isn't a real threat to me or my family and I'll challenge anyone or anything that would force me into submission. That's who I am take it or leave it. I have nothing to "get over"Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Twin,

I did not mean to come across as argumentative. Sorry if it seemd so.

I was simply stating fact... that you, as an unbeliever... have a different viewpoint than someone who believes in... something.

And you are quite entitled to your viewpoint/beliefs.

My view is different but I have no need to impress my beliefs upon you.

And, as for taking you or leaving you, I'll take you. You are a valued member of this board.

Regards,
Dave SchwartzThe bolded statements above are what this country is all about and IMO would have been applauded by the framers of our constiturion

TD,
While I couldn’t agree more with what you’ve said in this thread, I’m not sure the term “unbeliever” applies to you, considering your repeated anti-abortion stance. When you said “The only salvation for humanity is to discard those primitive beliefs,” were you referring to a) belief in God, b) belief in the absolute correctness of a single interpretation of God and his/her word, c) belief that land can be holy, d) any or all of the preceding, or e) something else entirely?Thanks Dave, now I feel like a heal with my response. I have a habit of throwing things out off the cuff. At least you know I didn't take the time to make anything up and your getting the real thing but that don't mean I'm void of any moral values. Philosophically I take what I think is good in this life, learned or experienced. Like you I don't expect everyone to think as I do.

I do think it's about time we as human beings rethink our core beliefs for the betterment of all. Maybe that's isn't possable, if so it would take a better man than I.Eloquent one,
You've stated my own beliefs far more succinctly than I could ever have! ;)

Secretariat

08-14-2006, 04:54 PM

You are kidding right? I think if you look it up, you would find that the area occupied by Israel is considered "Holy Land" in their religion. It has to do with what occurred in that area during Biblical times. I am not a Jew, maybe somebody can chime in here. I don't want to go on at the risk of winging it......but I believe that is why the Jews weren't offered any land in Germany, or Tampa for that matter.

Tampa? America didn't have Nazi concentration camps. The issue the Iranian President was saying was since the German regime instituted the oppression against the Jewish people in the concentration camps, why shouldn't Germany have been the one to give land for a Jewsih homeland rather than oppressing the Palestinians who had nothing to do with Auscwitz or Buchenwald camps,

Now, before I'm lambasted, I'm not saying I think this guy is credible in the least, except here he raises an interesting point. The argument that Jews were oppressed for years by Arabs, and they consider Israel their homeland for centuries doesn't quite cut it. The American Indian could use the same argument and demand their homelands under the same logic.

His point is an interesting one. Yes, i know he denies that concentration camps existed and he is an idiot and anti-Semite and ridiculous in these claims. He clearly hates the Jews, and will practically do anything to get the Jewish people out of Israel (as all Arab people want the Jews out of Israel). He is dangerous, and not to be trusted, but this argument of his has some merit.

As Indulto quotes the Iranian dissident who wants democracy,

"…The most promising path to democracy in the Middle East, he said, is to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and eliminate the poverty, desperation and despotic governments that he said have allowed extremism to flourish."

Without a recognition of that resolution this will perpetuate forever until annihilation. The problem is how to resolve it. Can Israel's Arab neighbors ever accept their fundamental right to occupy what they Arab's consider their Holy Land? I'm not sure they ever can.

Secretariat

08-14-2006, 05:12 PM

SMTW,

Please read my post before this before getting back to your question. I'm not surprised he said that as millions of shite march the streets to shout Death to Israel, Death to the United States. The Shite Arabs beleive in this mythology on the return of Mohmammed and Jesus together much like probably GW belives in the End of Days under Revelations. Much like the followers of Koresh and Jim jones beleived their radicalism or that of Bin Laden.

It is dangerous people who use religion as a precept for war.

Do I consider this man dangerous? Omigod, yes. Much more dangerous than the threat Saddam Hussein posed. Do I think he'll attempt to get and use nuclear weapons? Yes, I do. Do I think at some point the US may have to militarily intervene? It coud come to that. Do I think we should we should pre-emptively invade Iran before August 22nd based on this guy's statement at Friday prayers that he beleives in a Shite mytholgocal End of Days scenario? No.

Right now, let's get Lebanon-Israel-Hezbollah stabilzed somewhat. Let's get the hell out of Iraq, and then let's deal with Iran as necessary after attempts at diplomacy.

You ask can you do diplomacy with someone like this. The answer is simple. You must try for the sake of thousands of lives. GW's refusal to even meet with countries he doesn't like is absurd. one other point the iranian President made on 60 minutes which made sense was that diplomacy is something you do with your enemies becasue there's really no need to do it with your friends. GW would be wise to take that advice, but he refuses to even sit down and meet with them.

BenDiesel26

08-14-2006, 06:39 PM

Don't know if anyone has caught the interviews with the former terrorists that have been on fox news the last couple of weeks, but here is one that is basically stating the same stuff.

Walid Shoebat

FP: Mr. Shoebat, it is a privilege to have you as a guest. Welcome to Frontpage Interview.

Shoebat: Thank you

FP: Tell us a bit about the violent culture you come from.

Shoebat: This question requires an entire book to respond to fully, but simply put, one must never forget Nazi Germany. Nazism was the process of robbing the religious institutions, arts, media, and the social fabric of the German society. Likewise, in the Middle East, one can find the same elements as Nazi Germany, with a crucial difference:

1 - This form has a religious twist to it – Islamic fundamentalism.

2 - This goes beyond one country as Germany. Islamic fundamentalism is attempting to spread itself throughout 55 Muslim states.

But like Nazism and Communism, it has no respect for national borders and the end justifies the means.

Now, what type of a child can a system like this produce?

So I was taught day-in-and-day-out: Jew-Hatred. In the mosque, songs, social life.

Hatred develops like drug addiction, from stone throwing to Molotov cocktails to ending up planting a bomb.

FP: Why is it so vital for Palestinians to hate Jews?

Shoebat: Once the disease has been identified in my lines above (Islamo-Nazism), it would be easy to respond to your question with a question - why do Muslim fanatics behead Americans on TV?

Well... they hate Americans, but is it only Americans? Koreans die as well as even other Muslims.

The response to this question has been well documented in history - why did Nazis destroy 6,000,000 Jews by public shooting and extermination camps? And even Germans who didn't agree were exterminated as well.

Cult-like hatred. Nazism is a cult, a process to brainwash an entire society to believe that Nazi Germans are more special then others. The Arian special race in Nazism was one of these methods. In other words, an unhealthy dose of extreme national pride can go too far. Evil in Nazism didn't have to outwardly say "kill Jews" right from the start, but simply made Germans think in such pride to say "you are a special people, better then anyone else". From that point, the rest was history.

Similarly Islamism, the process of saying that Muslims are better then others, that we need to Islamize the world by the sword. This cult has gone as far as to kill and behead people in front of a camera, carry body parts in Ramallah and praise Allah in public view for the whole world to see.

It is one thing if a private cult practiced some sick idea, but when the entire city of Ramallah openly carries body parts and praises Allah for the death of Jews?

The difference is that the first is condemned by the others. Yet this is not the case in "Palestine" and much of the Arab world who paraded the death of almost 3,000 Americans who died in 9/11.

Very few dare to object (besides public officials for the media’s sake), they would be branded as traitors and publicly lynched. One can see several photos of public lynchings in "Palestine" and they are done openly with the blessings of entire populations.

What were the crimes of the victims?

They didn't follow the party line. Period.

These are the things you rarely hear or see in the media today.

FP: Do you agree that the yearning for murder and suicide in Palestinian culture - and in Islamic-Arab culture in general -- would not disappear even if Israel and all Jews disappeared from the face of the earth?

Shoebat: I agree. Even if every Jew is dead it would make no difference. As I responded previously, they kill anyone who is not like them. The goal is "Islam to the world." This is the banner you see them carry all over their demonstrations.

Palestine and its cause is hardly a secular one, it is far from being multi-ethnic or multi-religious.

The Palestinian charter is calling for an Arab state (with no Jews allowed) and Islam as a the official state religion. It is crucial to ask ourselves: why? Why are Jews not allowed to exist in this state? Why Islam a state religion? I had thought that we are living in a world of tolerance. Not so in the Arab world with a culture that has a short fuse.

Arafat was always kissing Sheikh Yassin for his own survival. He knew that if he diverted too much from the main line of Islamism that he would die. Much of the Arab world is still calling for the destruction of the Jewish state. The only difference between Hamas and the PA is the dose of Islamofascism. If Hamas introduced 1000 mg, 500mg Sharia law (both government and secular), and 500mg Jihad, Arafat would introduce 250mg Sharia (Islamic civil law) and 500mg pure Jihad.

FP: Tell us the significant stages that led to your decision to reject your culture and its terrorism.

Shoebat: I had to go through a self-detoxification program. A daily dose of questioning everything I believed in. It started in 1993 and progressed by studying the Jewish Bible, arts, and history. It was sparked by a question my wife asked me in the process of me Islamizing her - "Show me the bad things the Jews did in the Bible?"

In the Bible, all I found was that the Jews were on self-defense mode throughout Bible history, and even until now. From Babylonians, Assyrians, Amorites, Philistines, Edomites... always in self-defense mode.

While I learned in my Islamic study that when the Jews come back to the land, that we will kill them, and the trees and stones will cry out: here is a Jew hiding behind me, come O Muslim, come and kill him.

One is on self-defense mode, and the other on the attack. Why?

Then I started on the arts, songs, movies, culture.

I began with Fiddler on the Roof. This was Jewish culture 101. I watched it over 350 times.

Then came Jewish songs, with not a single song that had the words "kill", "war" or "death".

After I expressed my findings, my enemies accused me of transforming from one extreme to another. They accused me of being racist.

When I was a terrorist I was labelled "freedom fighter", but for loving Jewish culture, Jewish religion, Jewish preservation, I was called a racist.

Then I made a trip to the Holy Land, stopped with shock in Hebron when I saw Palestinians stone the Jewish bus in Qiryat Arba'a. The taxi I was sitting in wanted to leave and I asked him to stop. I wanted to see this. The Jews took the stones without a single word of anger. Quietly entered the bus. I couldn’t believe what I saw.

Why I asked?

Not why they stone Jews, but why it's making me so sad to see Arabs stoning Jews.

I had thought that we hated Zionism and not Jews. Why were Jews not allowed to exist in Arab villages, yet Arabs exist in Israel proper?

This and thousands of questions. I realized that I was being infected with all of these feelings. I concluded that if love was an "infection" I prayed to God that I get plagued with it, and that I never recover. Is this my sin? That I began to love Jews? As well as Hindus, Buddhists, and Moslems?

To love life is a sin? To want to preserve both Jewish children and Arabs is a sin?

I was so hurt when my cousin Raed was killed on his way to plant a bomb in Ben Yehuda Street, yet I also felt bad for the kids he was about to kill. I realized that he was infected with a Nazi like cult just as I was.

To love ourselves is easy. To love our children is easy, but the deepest love is to love other people's children as well. Adoption was made null and void in Islam, yet I saw in the Judeo-Christian culture that adoption is a beautiful thing.

Hatred is a cancer that spread. I know that they say that Islamism is only 15% of the Muslim world, but it's a cancer, and it's spreading. We are not winning fanatics into the fold, but loosing secular Muslims to the fanatics. We need to put on a fight. Extracting cancer is painful. The scales began to fall from my eyes a year later and documenting everything.

I decided to convert to Christianity as a result and fight for justice for Jews everywhere. It's a myth that Palestinians are the underdogs, it's not an Israeli-Palestinian war, but an Arab-Islamofascist war. Once we get the big picture, we can see who the under-dog is - the Jews. There was only one reason we called for the destruction of Israel, and one reason alone - we simply hated Jews.

FP: What do you think of Western leftists who demonize Israel and exonerate Islamic-Arab terror? What is their psychology?

Shoebat: I am not into modern psychology and at times I have clashes with "psychoanalyzing" everything. How do we psychoanalyze Hitler? Can we psychoanalyze evil? Some try. But since you asked me to do so I will try.

There are two types of "leftists". One is naive and believes in his cause out of what he thinks is love. These are a group of people who think they are dreaming of peace but view it through tunnel vision.

Peace cannot be obtained in a vacuum without using truth and justice. This group unfortunately dominates much of the Jewish community and the western world.

With the Jewish community, they allowed their enemy to put a wedge called "Palestine". Now the Jewish community is divided either pro or against a Palestinian state. I am not against such people, at least we all need to unite to SAVE Israel and Jewish existence.

At least this group should adjust and stand for a "democratic Palestine", a "multi-cultural multi-religious Palestine." Yet they are blind to what is the intention of Arafat and Hamas. This is the group who had hopes in Oslo. They condemned me for saying that Oslo will bring more dead Jews. This was in 1993. Today not one single member of the "lightly breaded lefties" say the Oslo indeed brought peace. They all realize that if Arafat had his way, they too will be deep fried.

The other type are these groups that attack Israel in their claim to love the world, yet are silent towards the real issues, silent when over a million Sudanese are butchered. Silent when Christians die in Indonesia, or Cypriots are killed by Turks. Silent regarding women's rights abuses.

You never hear a peep. But when Israel defends itself, and in the process they kill attackers. They are too quick to point their fingers in isolating Israel as the world villain.

To this group, if they saw the unprovoked stoning of Palestinians against the minority Jews in Hebron as I did, they will always conclude that the Jews must have done something to deserve this. That it takes two to tango. To these I have but a simple question – what did the Jews do to tango in Nazi Germany? The Jews of Hebron at one time were all exterminated with the men's testicles cut off, women raped, their breasts cut off, and babies slashed to death. This happened way before the so-called occupation when Haj Amin Al-Husseni called to "kill them were ever you find them and rape their women" as he collaborated with Hitler to rid the Muslim world of Jews and even organized an SS Khanzar Muslim division for the service of Adolf Hitler and literally Islamo-Nazism.

No one talks about the Hebron massacre, and everyone talks of Jenin, forgetting that many Israeli soldiers were killed in their attempt to dismantle bomb making houses. When does the world blame the law for a drug bust?

These are lead by wolves in sheep's clothing. But even wolves can be transformed into sheep. Nothing is impossible in my view. After all, I myself was once a wolf.

FP: Walid Shoebat, thank you for joining us today. You are a truly courageous man and we wish you all the best.

Shoebat: Thank you Jamie.

I could not find the transcript of the PLO terrorist on fox news last night. However, as you can see there is a fundamental difference between Christianity and what these extremists are taught. If you would look at Matthew in the New Testament, you will see that Christianity calls forth prayers for those who hate you that they may see the light (by the way remember separation of church and state before you question the gov't). These people, if you saw the interview from last night, are taught these things from the young age of six or seven all the way through their adult lives, ie. kill those who aren't Muslim. People need to stop trying to blame the government for advancing this state of mind. They have been teaching this Islamic extremist rules in these countries for over half a century.

Show Me the Wire

08-14-2006, 07:31 PM

sec:

Yes the answer is simple, a simple yes or no and a short reason supporting your answer. However, I do not get a simple concise answer.

Okay for my edification regarding your points.

Did President Bush cut off diplomatic ties with Iran during his administration or were the diplomatic ties cut prior to the current administration?

Is it possible the Iranian president is using the carrot of diplomacy as spin for public relations and possible justifications for his actions?

Show Me the Wire

08-14-2006, 07:35 PM

If you would look at Matthew in the New Testament, you will see that Christianity calls forth prayers for those who hate you that they may see the light

Amen.

twindouble

08-14-2006, 07:59 PM

TD,
While I couldn’t agree more with what you’ve said in this thread, I’m not sure the term “unbeliever” applies to you, considering your repeated anti-abortion stance. When you said “The only salvation for humanity is to discard those primitive beliefs,” were you referring to a) belief in God, b) belief in the absolute correctness of a single interpretation of God and his/her word, c) belief that land can be holy, d) any or all of the preceding, or e) something else entirely? Quote: Indulto

Sorry for the delayed response, had to tend to other things.

As I drove out the driveway, I had Eloquent One on my brain smiling and laughing within.

Actually you are putting me on the spot, I'll either hang myself or find someway to explain what I think. That alone is a tall order for me but I'll try.

First let me say, I took note of what's in bold. To me there's no absolutes when it comes to understanding the meaning of life. Anyone that's brought into this world has to be in awe of it. I don't see myself as anything all that important when it comes the " bigger picture". Through out my life I've been wary of religious zealots cults and alike. I can only walk the present path of my existence, that way I can hopefully evaluate what I think makes sense, good or bad for my own survival and well being.

I am content in not knowing what's at the end and I don't fear it. What I'm saying, this is one wonderful experience and I think many are misguided when they say they have the answers but in reality they don't. Regardless of what their religious affiliation is, fear is a survival mechanism not a tool for suppression. There's so many that advantage, create so much hardship and suffering over something they know nothing about. Some with that goal in mind to begin with. That's right there's no absolutes when it comes the existence of a God be it him, Her or It. I'll have that answer soon enough.

I'm not saying the philosophers and prophets of the past haven't added to my knowledge, I'd be a fool not to take heed to what good things have been said or done over the centuries. On the other hand I'm not so foolish to be blindly lead into the abbess by not questioning and drawing my own conclusions.

Wouldn't it be something if everyone come to realize this life is actually what heaven is all about, every that's here suggests it is to me. We just don't know enough at this point to truly appreciate like I said, " the wonder of it all." Instead we are arrogant and so selfish to think there's something else, like we deserve a better existence after the fact. I'm not sold on that bill of goods and never will be. The fact it can be sold just spells disaster, history proves that out without a doubt.

Just give me a fresh tomato or any of the abundant fruits and all that life offers and I'm one happy man. Everyone would do better to rethink their existence, in a manor that dispels the fears and seeks the truth when it comes to historical events that I eluded to, regardless of it's source.

That's about the best I can do.

T.D.

Secretariat

08-14-2006, 09:01 PM

sec:

1. Did President Bush cut off diplomatic ties with Iran during his administration or were the diplomatic ties cut prior to the current administration?

2. Is it possible the Iranian president is using the carrot of diplomacy as spin for public relations and possible justifications for his actions?

1. No, but that is irrelevant. It makes no difference that relations were cut after the Iranian hostage crisis. Leading is about stepping to the plate NOW, not about whining about a decision when Ayatollah Khomeini took power 27 years ago. What is relevant is Iran is a serious problem. Problems don't generally go away by ignoring them or name calling or threatening.

2. Of course it is. It is also possible that hositilties are contained while there is some discussion. Maybe inspections. But with no discussion, there is only two possbile outcomes. a. All out war with Iran. b. Iran rolling over to an unconditional surrender to the US wishes. I can guarnatee b. is not gonna happen. And a. is going to cost a lot of lives. Are you ready to personally enlist in that fight and accept all the consequences of it to the US?

JustRalph

08-14-2006, 09:19 PM

ok, how about Sarasota? It was a friggin joke.............I wasn't serious about Tampa..........give me a break

Indulto

08-14-2006, 09:21 PM

... To me there's no absolutes when it comes to understanding the meaning of life. Anyone that's brought into this world has to be in awe of it. I don't see myself as anything all that important when it comes the " bigger picture". Through out my life I've been wary of religious zealots cults and alike. I can only walk the present path of my existence, that way I can hopefully evaluate what I think makes sense, good or bad for my own survival and well being.

I am content in not knowing what's at the end and I don't fear it. What I'm saying, this is one wonderful experience and I think many are misguided when they say they have the answers but in reality they don't. Regardless of what their religious affiliation is, fear is a survival mechanism not a tool for suppression. There's so many that advantage, create so much hardship and suffering over something they know nothing about. Some with that goal in mind to begin with. That's right there's no absolutes when it comes the existence of a God be it him, Her or It. I'll have that answer soon enough.

I'm not saying the philosophers and prophets of the past haven't added to my knowledge, I'd be a fool not to take heed to what good things have been said or done over the centuries. On the other hand I'm not so foolish to be blindly lead into the abbess by not questioning and drawing my own conclusions.

Wouldn't it be something if everyone come to realize this life is actually what heaven is all about, every that's here suggests it is to me. We just don't know enough at this point to truly appreciate like I said, " the wonder of it all." Instead we are arrogant and so selfish to think there's something else, like we deserve a better existence after the fact. I'm not sold on that bill of goods and never will be. The fact it can be sold just spells disaster, history proves that out without a doubt.

Just give me a fresh tomato or any of the abundant fruits and all that life offers and I'm one happy man. Everyone would do better to rethink their existence, in a manor that dispels the fears and seeks the truth when it comes to historical events that I eluded to, regardless of it's source.

That's about the best I can do.

T.D.TD,
Your "best" is the best I've come across since I discovered the Internet. As we'll both "have the answer soon enough," it took some guts to put it all out there.

Thinking how close we came to getting off on the wrong foot over abortion, my right-reclining friend, it's comforting to know that even in cyberspace, one can somehow sense another person's worth regardless of how their words might be interpreted.

Indulto

08-14-2006, 09:33 PM

ok, how about Sarasota? It was a friggin joke.............I wasn't serious about Tampa..........give me a breakJR,
Sarasota, never, but perhaps the Israelis would consider Saratoga. ;)

Maybe the mossad could be enlisted to "crack" down on the "chemists" and other cheating controllers of contest outcomes. :D

twindouble

08-14-2006, 10:17 PM

TD,
Your "best" is the best I've come across since I discovered the Internet. As we'll both "have the answer soon enough," it took some guts to put it all out there.

Thinking how close we came to getting off on the wrong foot over abortion, my right-reclining friend, it's comforting to know that even in cyberspace, one can somehow sense another person's worth regardless of how their words might be interpreted.

Thanks again Indulto, I have mutual respect for you as well. I'm not big on writing as you can see, I did leave out a couple words in my sentences. TLG hasn't been around to correct my spelling and grammar. At the rate he was going, I'd be at least at high school level by now. :D

T.D.

Show Me the Wire

08-15-2006, 12:37 AM

1. No, but that is irrelevant. It makes no difference that relations were cut after the Iranian hostage crisis. Leading is about stepping to the plate NOW, not about whining about a decision when Ayatollah Khomeini took power 27 years ago. What is relevant is Iran is a serious problem. Problems don't generally go away by ignoring them or name calling or threatening.

2. Of course it is. It is also possible that hositilties are contained while there is some discussion. Maybe inspections. But with no discussion, there is only two possbile outcomes. a. All out war with Iran. b. Iran rolling over to an unconditional surrender to the US wishes. I can guarnatee b. is not gonna happen. And a. is going to cost a lot of lives. Are you ready to personally enlist in that fight and accept all the consequences of it to the US?

sec:

Of course problems do not go away by themselves. President Bush is stepping up to the plate his administration is using diplomatic efforts through the wonderful U.N. to solve the Iranian problem.

Iran is a world problem not only a U.S. problem and for a satisfactory resolution the world community must be a vital part of the solution. It is very arrogant to propose the U.S. should sit down one on one with Iran and make decisions that will effect the whole world community. I think that kind of attitude is what makes the rest of the world angry toward the U.S.

President Bush is acting prudently and responsibly letting the U.N., the world community along with U.S. participation to address the growing threat in Iran.

As for your second point, we all may have no choice about fighting in a war against a jihadist government. If the president of Iran believes he needs to prepare the way for the return of the 12th imam the decision will be made for us. In short yes, I would lay down my life to protect my friends and family.

I answered your questions, how about answering my question, which is still on the table with a simple yes or no and a brief reason.

Show Me the Wire

08-15-2006, 01:11 AM

Wouldn't it be something if everyone come to realize this life is actually what heaven is all about, every that's here suggests it is to me. We just don't know enough at this point to truly appreciate like I said, " the wonder of it all." Instead we are arrogant and so selfish to think there's something else, like we deserve a better existence after the fact. I'm not sold on that bill of goods and never will be. The fact it can be sold just spells disaster, history proves that out without a doubt.

T.D.

Would LOVE thy neighbor make living here on earth like Heaven? Would feeding your fellow man when he is hungry, clothing your fellow man when he is naked, consoling your fellow man when he needs consoling, celibrating with your fellow man the wonder and beauty of life make life on earth heaven like?

The goal is to create heaven on earth through LOVE, kindness, compassion and consolation.

Easy concept to understand but difficult to practice. Self denial for the sake of others is difficult to practice. Placing a strangers needs before your own is a demanding task as it seems to go against every fiber in our being.

Yet if every person wanted to to be treated with respect and kindness and they treated others, as they wanted to be treated this world would be genuinely transformed.

As you say twindouble life is about survival and well being, if we all cared for each other and filed each others physical and emotional needs we all would have survival and well being, as well as peace and prosperity.

Tom

08-15-2006, 11:56 AM

Too much talk.
Nuke 'em August 21st! :eek:

Secretariat

08-15-2006, 12:06 PM

sec:

Of course problems do not go away by themselves. President Bush is stepping up to the plate his administration is using diplomatic efforts through the wonderful U.N. to solve the Iranian problem.

Iran is a world problem not only a U.S. problem and for a satisfactory resolution the world community must be a vital part of the solution. It is very arrogant to propose the U.S. should sit down one on one with Iran and make decisions that will effect the whole world community. I think that kind of attitude is what makes the rest of the world angry toward the U.S.

President Bush is acting prudently and responsibly letting the U.N., the world community along with U.S. participation to address the growing threat in Iran.

As for your second point, we all may have no choice about fighting in a war against a jihadist government. If the president of Iran believes he needs to prepare the way for the return of the 12th imam the decision will be made for us. In short yes, I would lay down my life to protect my friends and family.

I answered your questions, how about answering my question, which is still on the table with a simple yes or no and a brief reason.

I've answered your questions numerous times. You jiust don't hear the answer you want. and anyone who demands a simple yes or no to some of the world's biggest problems obviously is underestimating the depth of the problems.

I had to laugh at this statement. "It is very arrogant to propose the U.S. should sit down one on one with Iran and make decisions that will effect the whole world community. I think that kind of attitude is what makes the rest of the world angry toward the U.S." You are kidding right. The world has been asking us for years to sit down and talk with both N. Korea and Iran directly. I don't think the whole world is angry at us for trying to work out problems with neighbors diplomatically. Kind of has to do with destroying infrastructures and killing loads of cilvilians and enforcing a political ideology onto people.

This is an oxymoron. "President Bush is acting prudently..."

Lighten up on the 12th iman stuff. You're frightening little chidren who read this board. Aug. 22nd is a week away and my guess is the world will go on pretty much as it is today.

Show Me the Wire

08-15-2006, 12:27 PM

twindouble

08-15-2006, 12:50 PM

Would LOVE thy neighbor make living here on earth like Heaven? Would feeding your fellow man when he is hungry, clothing your fellow man when he is naked, consoling your fellow man when he needs consoling, celibrating with your fellow man the wonder and beauty of life make life on earth heaven like?

The goal is to create heaven on earth through LOVE, kindness, compassion and consolation.

Easy concept to understand but difficult to practice. Self denial for the sake of others is difficult to practice. Placing a strangers needs before your own is a demanding task as it seems to go against every fiber in our being.

Yet if every person wanted to to be treated with respect and kindness and they treated others, as they wanted to be treated this world would be genuinely transformed.

As you say twindouble life is about survival and well being, if we all cared for each other and filed each others physical and emotional needs we all would have survival and well being, as well as peace and prosperity.

Like I said, a lot of good things have been written and accomplished, the problem is, humanity hasn't evolved to the point where taking all that is good in this life and making it the foundation for human progress and peace. I have no elusions about creating a utopian existence or promising one after death, the very nature of things says that's highly unlikely. There's no question in my mind what's been offered in this life from day one says we are undeserving. We have over the centuries and continue to be a cancer on our own humanity and the world.

Maybe another thousand years from now we will have reached a higher level of understanding shedding the ignorance that exists today.

T.D.

Show Me the Wire

08-15-2006, 01:27 PM

Show Me the Wire

08-15-2006, 01:32 PM

twindouble:

I agree humanity has not been able to take that important step to genuinely change our existence in this world.

Secretariat

08-15-2006, 02:36 PM

sec:

My question has nothing to do with trying diplomacy.

My question is how effective do you think negotiations would be under the facts regarding a president, of a theocracy, that has an unique religious belief in his uniquely religious established government.

When you give me a response about why or why not it would be effective, I will agree you gave a relevant reply.

And I have answered again and again. OK, one more time and that's it. I'm spending more bandwidth on this reply than al of 46's pix.

We don't know because it has not been tried. We've not attemtped direct negotiations with Iran for 27 years.

Show Me the Wire

08-15-2006, 02:46 PM

Tom

08-15-2006, 05:39 PM

What's to negotiate?
They know what we want, we don't care what they want.
They support terrorists, they will have pay for that.
Negotiate suggests we give in on something - not a chance.

46zilzal

08-15-2006, 05:53 PM

anyone see that interview with the Iranian President on 60 Minutes over the weekend?

Indulto

08-15-2006, 06:04 PM

What's to negotiate?
They know what we want, we don't care what they want.
They support terrorists, they will have pay for that.
Negotiate suggests we give in on something - not a chance.Tom,
Stated that way, I'm reminded of an elementry school bully who learned to negotiate once enough kids started standing up to him and he couldn't get chosen to participate in pick-up games.

Sometimes all that one of the parties really needs is to preserve some measure of dignity. :blush:

Tom

08-15-2006, 06:16 PM

anyone see that interview with the Iranian President on 60 Minutes over the weekend?

I heard it - in segments - on the Savage Nation drivng home from Toga last night. The guest host was disecting it. It faded out and was kind of hard to hear at times, but I was convinvce the guy was pulling a publicity stunt to make himself look less of a monster, and I was definatley convinced Mike Wallce is about 80 years past his prime. His interviewing sklills were non-existant.
cBS should be ashamed for putting that crap on the air. It was nothing more than an infomercial against Bush.

46zilzal

08-15-2006, 06:19 PM

The guy said nothing and stopped the interview when one of his staffers told him to alter his jacket. The guy seems to either have 80 of them, or wears the same one (like many a t.v.detective) all the time.

Tom

08-15-2006, 06:26 PM

The interview - video:

Show Me the Wire

08-15-2006, 06:53 PM

The one without the hat is Mike Wallace, right? :D

Tom

08-15-2006, 09:28 PM

Wrong! :eek:

Secretariat

08-15-2006, 10:32 PM

sec:

I respectfully disagree, negotiations are being tried through the U.N. In fact Iran said it will respond to these negotiations on August 22nd.

Point of clarification my question is not specifically about the U.S. it is about negotiations in general with a theocratic belief. Does that information clarify my question as to why I believe negotiations and diplomacy are being tried and for some reason you keep saying negotiations have not been tried?

Really, I do not understand your insistence diplomacy has not been tried.

One of the problems in the case of the UN negotiating here (which is recent) is that there are no Muslim states on the Security Council. Therefore, the Muslim states don't view the UN as reflective of thier POV.

Iran is a fundamentalist Muslim state. It has been since the Ayatollah took over. It is very difficult to get any semblance of trust of the West from this nation. But a huge step forward would be direct negotiations with them attempting to resolve the core issue - the Israeli-Palestinian situation. To create ultimatums only makes fundamentalists become more entrenched. We need other Muslim allies to put pressure onto Iran, not set up Iran as a martyr to other Muslim states to unify against the US. I relaize we disagree on this, but the current approach seems to be doing nothing but creating more division.

Tom

08-16-2006, 03:46 PM

How about this - Israel's existence is NONE OF IRAN'S freaking business.
I see NO difference between the nazis ands Iran. Iran seeks to destroy Israel - this means THEY need to be destroyed. End of story. That little hitler wanna-be MUST be killed. Nothing else is acceptable.

Show Me the Wire

08-16-2006, 04:12 PM

O We need other Muslim allies to put pressure onto Iran, not set up Iran as a martyr to other Muslim states to unify against the US. I relaize we disagree on this, but the current approach seems to be doing nothing but creating more division.

Now you are getting it. Iran is a world problem, especially for the other muslim states. That is why I say it is arrogant to believe the U.S. sould be the one at the negotiating table to make decisions for the world. Iran is a world problem and should be dealt with on that basis.

As you said there is little trust for the West, so a question for you.

How can Iran trust the U.S. the ally of Iran's biggest enemy? It can't, Iran wants to eradicate Israel and the U.S. supports Israel's right to exist, therefore there is no mutual ground or trust to negotiate upon.

The correct forum for negotion is through the world body, with muslim states taking te lead.

Trying to assign the blame on the U.S. for not negotiating one on one with Iran is rhetoric used byIran to justify its dangerous agenda, wich is based on their form of Islam.

Secretariat

08-16-2006, 07:02 PM

Now you are getting it. Iran is a world problem, especially for the other muslim states. That is why I say it is arrogant to believe the U.S. sould be the one at the negotiating table to make decisions for the world. Iran is a world problem and should be dealt with on that basis.

As you said there is little trust for the West, so a question for you.

How can Iran trust the U.S. the ally of Iran's biggest enemy? It can't, Iran wants to eradicate Israel and the U.S. supports Israel's right to exist, therefore there is no mutual ground or trust to negotiate upon.

The correct forum for negotion is through the world body, with muslim states taking te lead.

Trying to assign the blame on the U.S. for not negotiating one on one with Iran is rhetoric used byIran to justify its dangerous agenda, wich is based on their form of Islam.

The UN will not solve this one. But if the US set up a Mid East State Council which included the Palestinans, Israel and the United States, there is much more chance of actual discussion that may lead to peace. You don't even have to invite Iran.

Iran is using the Paelstinan situation as fodder. If you take away their argument and the Palestians are contented it takes away a lot of the Iranians argument.

Show Me the Wire

08-16-2006, 07:24 PM

. But if the US set up a Mid East State Council which included the Palestinans, Israel and the United States, there is much more chance of actual discussion that may lead to peace. You don't even have to invite Iran.

What you are saying does make sense about a Mid East negotiation. What I do not see as necessary is that the U.S. has to set it up. The world is not our responsibility. We need to be responsible citizens. So, yes the U.S. should participate in negotiations with the world community to address Iran's commitment to genocide.

As you said before the lead responsibility is that of the muslem states as they make up the region with Iran, Syria and Israel.

Secretariat

08-16-2006, 07:46 PM

What you are saying does make sense about a Mid East negotiation. What I do not see as necessary is that the U.S. has to set it up. The world is not our responsibility. We need to be responsible citizens. So, yes the U.S. should participate in negotiations with the world community to address Iran's commitment to genocide.

As you said before the lead responsibility is that of the muslem states as they make up the region with Iran, Syria and Israel.

Bottom line. It will not happen UNLESS the US sets it up.

I do agree though, the world is not our reponsiblity, and that is why we should get the heck out of Iraq.

Show Me the Wire

08-16-2006, 07:57 PM

Bottom line. It will not happen UNLESS the US sets it up.

I have to ask why. Why does the U.S. have to set up a conference? Iran is not a U.S. problem, except for it proposing genocide to one of the U.S. allies and agitating violence in Iraq, against innocent Iraqi civilians.

Iran is a bigger problem to the non theocratic governed muslem states, it is their responsibility. Action by these muslim states would be more meaningful and have some real impact.

The U.S. ssetting the agenda only gives more fodder to governments like Iran about the evil west.

And running out of Iraq would be giving the aggressive theocratic regimes the wrong message and reinforce their beliefs that the U.S. is a paper tiger, with no stomach for violence.

Tom

08-16-2006, 11:23 PM

Bottom line. It will not happen UNLESS the US sets it up.

I do agree though, the world is not our reponsiblity, and that is why we should get the heck out of Iraq.

So, you are saying George W Bush is the only man in the world who can possibly bring peace to the middle east? :faint:

Show Me the Wire

08-16-2006, 11:54 PM

Tom:

You rule :jump:

Secretariat

08-17-2006, 08:28 PM

I have to ask why. Why does the U.S. have to set up a conference? Iran is not a U.S. problem, except for it proposing genocide to one of the U.S. allies and agitating violence in Iraq, against innocent Iraqi civilians.

Iran is a bigger problem to the non theocratic governed muslem states, it is their responsibility. Action by these muslim states would be more meaningful and have some real impact.

The U.S. ssetting the agenda only gives more fodder to governments like Iran about the evil west.

And running out of Iraq would be giving the aggressive theocratic regimes the wrong message and reinforce their beliefs that the U.S. is a paper tiger, with no stomach for violence.

Iran's main issue (like all Arab states) is always about the Palestinian situation. This is at least the excuse they use, and why almost all of our Presidents have made attmepts to diplomatically resolve the Paletinaian situation diplomatically. Some have at least boguht us time. The Bush Docrtine would not neogitate with Arafat, and beleived that democracy in PAlestine would be the answer. A big mistake as the Palestinians elected Hamas, a terrorist group. This placed the Bush admin in a delicate situation. Either negotiate with terrorists which were democratically elected, or ignore the problem. They chose to ignore the problem. Only thing is the rest of the middle east hasn't.

You are incredibly naive if you think that other Arab states are going to deal with Iran. It just won't happen.

As to Iraq...your argument was the same bullshit peddled during Vietnam. We spent over a decade for that crap, and too, too many lives lost for a frigging "message".

Tom

08-17-2006, 09:08 PM

Sec says....."This looks like a job for SuperBush!"

Faster than an appelate court judge,
More powerful than the DNC,
Able to beat all opponents in Florida

Show Me the Wire

08-17-2006, 09:24 PM

sec:

Yes, the Palestinians elected a government bent on eradicating Israel. So lets learn a lesson. The lesson is negtiations failed becuase the people of the region have spoken, they want to kill the Jews. They can not make their intentions any clearer. That is the substance of the issue, and why the Camp David accord failed, why Nassar (sp) assasinated, why Clinton couldn't bring peace, etc.

Why do you believe negotiations will work now, in light of the history of failure?

The Palestinians have spoken through a democratically elected government and we need to understand their mindset and accpet it. If we (you and I) can't change each others views, absent the element of hate, how can we change views rooted in generations of hate?

Real change has to come from within, not forced change from the outside, that is why the Arab states have to step up. I am not maive, I am pragmatic. Nothing the U.S. will do change the situation, short of a military action, and at best a military action is a band aid solution.

Sec, it is naive for us to believe the U.S., by itself, can effect real change in the Arab culture of hatred.

PaceAdvantage

08-23-2006, 09:18 AM

Well, that was fairly anti-climactic.....

Tom

08-23-2006, 10:43 AM

Maybe some behind the scenes discussions fell on open ears?
Or Chenney went hunting with an imam?

Secretariat

08-23-2006, 10:55 AM

Another End of Days fizzle prediction. Humanity survives beyond August 22nd.

..."The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." - FDR

Tom

08-23-2006, 11:30 AM

Right on Sec....must be they thought twice about crossing "W" and reconsidered.
Comforting to know we have a leader who inspires our enemies to back down.
:ThmbUp:

kenwoodallpromos

08-23-2006, 03:00 PM

Iran did exactly what everybody in the western capitalist "Christian" countries do- they made the religious day into a secular holiday and took off from work.
Only they are still in the stone age because they kept it on a Tuesday instead of changing it to a Monday!
The Iran Pres did not even bother to wear a yamika or whatever headress for the day!

Secretariat

08-23-2006, 03:26 PM

Right on Sec....must be they thought twice about crossing "W" and reconsidered.
Comforting to know we have a leader who inspires our enemies to back down.
:ThmbUp:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks Tom. I needed a laugh.

sq764

08-23-2006, 03:30 PM

One of the other problems is that the UN is completely worthless and continues to waste money worse than George Steinbrenner.

Wake me up when the UN follows through with any of it's threatening sactions..

One of the problems in the case of the UN negotiating here (which is recent) is that there are no Muslim states on the Security Council. Therefore, the Muslim states don't view the UN as reflective of thier POV.

Iran is a fundamentalist Muslim state. It has been since the Ayatollah took over. It is very difficult to get any semblance of trust of the West from this nation. But a huge step forward would be direct negotiations with them attempting to resolve the core issue - the Israeli-Palestinian situation. To create ultimatums only makes fundamentalists become more entrenched. We need other Muslim allies to put pressure onto Iran, not set up Iran as a martyr to other Muslim states to unify against the US. I relaize we disagree on this, but the current approach seems to be doing nothing but creating more division.

Secretariat

08-23-2006, 03:35 PM

One of the other problems is that the UN is completely worthless and continues to waste money worse than George Steinbrenner.

Did you mean George Steinbrenner or George Bush? Steinbrenner's defict is a lot lower than GW's.

sq764

08-23-2006, 03:38 PM

Did you mean George Steinbrenner or George Bush? Steinbrenner's defict is a lot lower than GW's.
Steinbrenner doesn't have to support the worthless UN with millions of wasted dollars.

JustRalph

08-23-2006, 04:36 PM

Steinbrenner doesn't have to support the worthless UN with millions of wasted dollars.

Yeah, but he supports this guy.............and that is a chunk of change
http://www.yaysports.com/mlb/images/arod.jpg