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Was the Atomic Bombing of Japan Necessary?
by Robert Freeman
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0806-25.htm
"The question of military necessity can be quickly put to rest. "Japan was already defeated and dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary." Those are not the words of a latter-day revisionist historian or a leftist writer. They are certainly not the words of an America-hater. They are the words of Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe and future president of the United States. Eisenhower knew, as did the entire senior U.S. officer corps, that by mid 1945 Japan was defenseless."
sq764
08-07-2006, 09:57 AM
Was the Atomic Bombing of Japan Necessary?
by Robert Freeman
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0806-25.htm
"The question of military necessity can be quickly put to rest. "Japan was already defeated and dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary." Those are not the words of a latter-day revisionist historian or a leftist writer. They are certainly not the words of an America-hater. They are the words of Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe and future president of the United States. Eisenhower knew, as did the entire senior U.S. officer corps, that by mid 1945 Japan was defenseless."
ok, how was this Bush's fault..
karlskorner
08-07-2006, 10:18 AM
There were 9 divisions waiting for us in southern Japan, all prepared to die for the Emperor. There were millions of civilians waiting for us in Japan, all prepared to die for the Emperor. The use of the bomb was justified. Enough lives were lost in the Pacific war. The Russians had 450k troops on the Mongolian border ( I was there during the fall months of 1945 ) Had the war not ended when it did, the Russians were prepared to invade North China. IKE made mistakes in Europe, one of them was not letting George Patton roll his tanks into Russia.
ok, how was this Bush's fault..
lol
Wow, Hcap - really reaching here, eh?
Estimates of antoher 25 million dead - sounds like they werre really on the ropes.
The only sad thing abut dropping the bomb was we only had two of them!
Can you imagine if we has a few more and listened to Patton when we had the chance.
46zilzal
08-07-2006, 12:27 PM
The only sad thing abut dropping the bomb was we only had two of them!
Can you imagine if we has a few more and listened to Patton when we had the chance.
that's a strange fascination with killing you have.
Indulto
08-07-2006, 12:35 PM
There were 9 divisions waiting for us in southern Japan, all prepared to die for the Emperor. There were millions of civilians waiting for us in Japan, all prepared to die for the Emperor. The use of the bomb was justified. Enough lives were lost in the Pacific war. The Russians had 450k troops on the Mongolian border ( I was there during the fall months of 1945 ) Had the war not ended when it did, the Russians were prepared to invade North China. IKE made mistakes in Europe, one of them was not letting George Patton roll his tanks into Russia.KK,
Let me get this straight. The bomb was justified because it saved American lives, but Ike blew it because he didn't squander American lives trying to do the same thing Hitler failed at.:confused:
Boy, hcap, you sure know how to make this board explode. :D
Fascination with taking care of our enemies permenantly. Had we destroyed Stalin in 1945, do you have any doubts the world have turned out better for millions of people?
Strange fascination YOU have with just accepting that millions of people have to suffer and die under dictatorships.
46zilzal
08-07-2006, 12:38 PM
Strange fascination YOU have with just accepting that millions of people have to suffer and die under dictatorships.
what happens in the world happens regardless of either or our opinions in that regard.
Well now, that was profound.
So why did you bring up my opinon in the first place? :lol:
boxcar
08-07-2006, 01:23 PM
KK,
Let me get this straight. The bomb was justified because it saved American lives, but Ike blew it because he didn't squander American lives trying to do the same thing Hitler failed at.:confused:
Boy, hcap, you sure know how to make this board explode. :D
I suspect the only explosion that has taken place around here is the one inside your head. What else could explain such faulty logic, except blown circuitry with in it?
In war, taking well planned offensive actions can actually result in fewer losses of lives than merely waiting for the enemy to take such action. Hope this clears up your confusion. :rolleyes:
Boxcar
Indulto
08-07-2006, 01:59 PM
I suspect the only explosion that has taken place around here is the one inside your head. What else could explain such faulty logic, except blown circuitry with in it?
In war, taking well planned offensive actions can actually result in fewer losses of lives than merely waiting for the enemy to take such action. Hope this clears up your confusion. :rolleyes:
BoxcarYet another blowout from the bowels of the Boxcar brain!
I realize it may have been too subtle for you, but I didn't challenge the dropping of the bomb, just the justification for teeing off on Ike, golf's greatest advertisement of the '50s. :D
Secretariat
08-07-2006, 03:37 PM
Hcap,
This is one of the few posts I have ever disagreed with you on. Could the A-bomb situation been handled differently? without question. Was it necessary? Without question. Did it help facilitate the end of the war? It was not the only thing, but went far to the saving of hundreds of thousands of American lives. When we are dealing with hundreds of thousands of people the issue becomes heightened.
indulto,
Take Box with a grain of salt. He hasn't been right for a long time now. He was ran off the horsey side for his ramblings. What would you expect.
ps I am banned from the horsey side because of my neat avatar. Truth still hurts the neocons. :lol:
I am still working on a way to blame the bomb on Bush. ;)
bigmack
08-07-2006, 03:55 PM
From the BBC Documentary "Hiroshima"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEokbsYvfFE
kenwoodallpromos
08-07-2006, 04:08 PM
Remember Bradley was over Ike- Ike was a European bootsy. And he is the one who's Pres. Proclaimation in 1954 authorized the fringe on the USA flag- but only for the army and navy- ignoring the US Air Force!
We waited two weeks between nukes to give Japan a chance to surrended- they did not. Just be thankful nuking Tokyo was unnecessary!
August 6, 1945, as usual, this grim anniversary always re-kindles the annual debate over the morality of using nuclear weapons against Japan. Obviously preventing the Stalin from gaining influence in Asia by joining the invasion of Japan and scaring the soviets with the threat of an atomic USA was really what was going on. I beleive strategic considerations of the Soviet threat was the overiding factor, not the saving of lives.
"By the Fall of 1944, US subs had thrown a ring of steel around Japans main ports. This blockade cut off all of Japans imports of oil, rubber, iron ore, copper and other strategic metals, as well as virtually everything else Japans import-dependant industries required.
In a few months, Japan, one of the worlds leading industrial nations, ground to a halt. Her factories shut down, her air force was grounded; her navy immobilized in port. Tanks and army transport vehicles had no fuel. Japans military was reduced to pre-World War I capability.
The US Navy sank 1,178 Japanese merchant ships some 5 million tons of shipping and 214 warships. At wars end, only 12% of Japans merchant fleet remained afloat. 55% of Japans maritime losses was due to American submarines, only 2% of US naval assets. Fifty-two US subs with 3,617 men were lost in action, or, as the Navy puts it, remain forever ‘On Patrol."
Henry H. Arnold, Commanding General of the U.S. Army Air Forces, "The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell because the Japanese had lost control of their own air."
Hcap,
This is one of the few posts I have ever disagreed with you on. Could the A-bomb situation been handled differently? without question. Was it necessary? Without question. Did it help facilitate the end of the war? It was not the only thing, but went far to the saving of hundreds of thousands of American lives. When we are dealing with hundreds of thousands of people the issue becomes heightened.
:faint::faint::faint:
indulto,
Take Box with a grain of salt. He hasn't been right for a long time now. He was ran off the horsey side for his ramblings. What would you expect.
ps I am banned from the horsey side because of my neat avatar. Truth still hurts the neocons. :lol:
I am still working on a way to blame the bomb on Bush. ;)
More personal attacks. Perhaps you could start a new thread and keep the violations of TOS out of this one, and also keep it on topic.
and don't faltter yourself - neither "side" is allowed to use political avatars in the REAL PA board. The only one in denial here seems to be you.
karlskorner
08-07-2006, 05:18 PM
Even though we had the 3rd bomb, ready in November, there was no need to A-bomb Tokyo, we had reduced it to rubble with fire bombs, a grand marshmellow roast. The problem was an invasion of a land where people believed it was an honor to die for God and Country ( The Emperor was God ), THE SAME PROBLEM WE NOW FACE IN IRAQ, it is an honor to die for God and Country. A friend sent me pictures this morning from Canada ( if I knew how to transfer them to this site, I would ) of a Muslim rally in London, England, called Religion of Peace Demonstration. You would be shocked at what the Islam religion has in mind for the Christian nations. If we don't get off our ass and put our might where our mouth is we face a dismal future. Tell the politicians to back off with their peace talks, it's too late.
More personal attacks. Perhaps you could start a new thread and keep the violations of TOS out of this one, and also keep it on topic.
and don't faltter yourself - neither "side" is allowed to use political avatars in the REAL PA board. The only one in denial here seems to be you.
Who started the personal attacks in this thread. And are you saying a confederate flag is not a political symbol ?
Who started the personal attacks in this thread. And are you saying a confederate flag is not a political symbol ?
Been there discussed that. Pay attention. Youwill fall behind.
When YOU run your own board, YOU can decide those types of things. :D
Lefty
08-07-2006, 06:59 PM
There were 9 divisions waiting for us in southern Japan, all prepared to die for the Emperor. There were millions of civilians waiting for us in Japan, all prepared to die for the Emperor. The use of the bomb was justified. Enough lives were lost in the Pacific war. The Russians had 450k troops on the Mongolian border ( I was there during the fall months of 1945 ) Had the war not ended when it did, the Russians were prepared to invade North China. IKE made mistakes in Europe, one of them was not letting George Patton roll his tanks into Russia.
Karl, dittos to what you wrote.
boxcar
08-07-2006, 09:04 PM
ljb wrote:
I am still working on a way to blame the bomb on Bush ;)
Coming out of the mouth of anyone else who used the winky, we'd all undesrtand the humor (or the attempt thereof). But when this proceeds out of yours, we all know better.
Boxcar
Are you suggesting he is abusing his winky? ;):eek:
Indulto
08-07-2006, 10:55 PM
indulto,
Take Box with a grain of salt. He hasn't been right for a long time now. He was ran off the horsey side for his ramblings. What would you expect.
ps I am banned from the horsey side because of my neat avatar. Truth still hurts the neocons.
I am still working on a way to blame the bomb on Bush. ljb,
Thank you for your concern for my feelings, but Boxcar is far too formidable an opponent to take with a grain of salt. To underestimate his versatility, range of expertise, and depth of conviction is to invite a train wreck. His arsenal is both diverse and effective. If he can't counter one's opinions with one of his infrequent displays of articulate logic, he always has broad-brushed labels, ridicule, and dismissal at the ready. But his hold-card is scripture which apparently at one time or another must have either convinced someone or else intimidated them into silence or submission, when all else failed. One ignores a rolling container of self-righteous, anti-progressive, hot air at one's peril. :lol:
Since you were kind enough to offer me some advice in dealing with another poster, perhaps you will not be offended if I return the favor. Tom has been cleaning your clock of late. There may be no solution because he pretty much cleans everybody's clock, but you might want to re-read your posts before you submit them and at least make him work a little. Serving him up softballs is getting too painful for this observer.:(
I also have to agree with a post of his recently about dismissing those who don’t express opinions related to horse racing. All of us here should be united in at least one way -- our passion for racing that sets us apart from most of the world. Certainly off-topic divides us. So unless we have an opportunity to find something to respect in our opponents outside of off-topic, the division here becomes even more pronounced. I risk offending you only because I do respect some of your contributions.
kenwoodallpromos
08-07-2006, 10:57 PM
This link says Russia would have invaded Japan (and even more killing) if Japan had not surrendered to us when they did. How many deaths then, with all Japanese males brainwashed just like the Muslim terorists into believing dying for their leader is heroic. When someone wnats to die fighting, you do not see too many white flags flying. The only thing that caused Japan to surrender was the prospect more women and children getting killed, either bym us through bombing or by Russia by slaughter. Otherwise they would not have stooped.
My dad was in Japan with the occupation and told me many Japanese males tried to kill our boys with swords or anything else AFTER the surrender.
kenwoodallpromos
08-07-2006, 11:05 PM
This link says Russia would have invaded Japan (and even more killing) if Japan had not surrendered to us when they did. How many deaths then, with all Japanese males brainwashed just like the Muslim terorists into believing dying for their leader is heroic. When someone wnats to die fighting, you do not see too many white flags flying. The only thing that caused Japan to surrender was the prospect more women and children getting killed, either bym us through bombing or by Russia by slaughter. Otherwise they would not have stooped.
My dad was in Japan with the occupation and told me many Japanese males tried to kill our boys with swords or anything else AFTER the surrender.
What I am reading about the subject also says japan may have surrendered if we kept doing conventional bombing until Nov or Dec, 4 more months. Wonderful! You like 4 months of carpet bombing better? the Japanese deaths by bombing would have just been in Tokyo instead of elsewhere.
Light
08-07-2006, 11:30 PM
"The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing ... I hated to see our country be the first to use such a weapon," Eisenhower 1963.
It is my opinion that the use of the barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan ... The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons ... My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children. Admiral Leahy, Chief of Staff to presidents Roosevelt and Truman
My staff was unanimous in believing that Japan was on the point of collapse and surrender." General Douglas MacArthur
The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war."General Curtis LeMay Air Force chief of staff
boxcar
08-08-2006, 12:14 AM
ljb,One ignores a rolling container of self-righteous, anti-progressive, hot air at one's peril. :lol: [/color]
Classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes: If we somehow could restrict what comes out of your onboard exhaust pipes, we'd solve the global warming problem once and for all. (And you call me "anti-progressive"? :D )
Boxcar
"Kiss my ass!" Harry Truman 1945
Overlay
08-08-2006, 12:28 AM
We waited two weeks between nukes to give Japan a chance to surrender- they did not.
It was three days from Hiroshima to Nagasaki (August 6 to August 9)(not that any length of delay would have made a difference, in my opinion).
If it was clear to any number of senior military commanders (at the time, and not upon hindsight and reflection years later) that use of the bomb was unnecessary, their misgivings must not have been reflected in the advice Truman was receiving. Truman said that one of the main considerations in his thinking was how he could have justified the massive American death toll that would have resulted from an invasion of Japan (especially explaining it to the families of the dead soldiers), knowing that he had had it in his power to end the war without invasion. I also recall him saying that, once he made the decision, he didn't lose any sleep over it.
Show Me the Wire
08-08-2006, 12:37 AM
Boxcar:
Unsolicited advice regarding our mutual board member:
The fool takes no delight in understanding, but rather displaying what he thinks (Prv. 18,2)
Show Me the Wire
08-08-2006, 12:47 AM
I long for the good old days all those war mongering Democrats. Hawks like FDR (who knew about the planned attack on Pearl Harbor and sacrificed all those lives so America could enter into the war), Truman, JFK, and LBJ (conspiracy architect for escalation in Vietnam).
I just do not understand the democratic party today.
GameTheory
08-08-2006, 02:00 AM
Hawks like FDR (who knew about the planned attack on Pearl Harbor and sacrificed all those lives so America could enter into the war)I don't think there is credible evidence that FDR knew. He did want to get in the war, and he may have even broken some laws to help the cause, but I don't think he knew of the Pearl Harbor attack and just waited for it to happen...
Oh GOD, GT, don't get the conspiracy folks going again!
Next thing you know, it will be FDR's son who was the second shooter in Dallas!
:bang:
Overlay
08-08-2006, 10:40 AM
Oh GOD, GT, don't get the conspiracy folks going again!
Next thing you know, it will be FDR's son who was the second shooter in Dallas!
You mean he wasn't????? :eek:
boxcar
08-08-2006, 01:31 PM
Boxcar:
Unsolicited advice regarding our mutual board member:
The fool takes no delight in understanding, but rather displaying what he thinks (Prv. 18,2)
If your intention was to communicate something substantive, you'll have to advance beyond mimicking the act of a fine feathered parrot.
Boxcar
Indulto
08-08-2006, 03:42 PM
Classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes: If we somehow could restrict what comes out of your onboard exhaust pipes, we'd solve the global warming problem once and for all. (And you call me "anti-progressive"? :D )
Boxcar:lol:
Box,
Talk about quoting out of context, what happened to all those complimentary statements I made. (You could have at least put "..." before "One.") ;)
boxcar
08-08-2006, 11:41 PM
:lol:
Box,
Talk about quoting out of context, what happened to all those complimentary statements I made.
I have carefully packed them in a jar of formaldehyde to help protect and preserve them against any potential decay of your memory cells in the event you're ever stricken with SML (Selective Memory Loss). ;)
Boxcar
kenwoodallpromos
08-09-2006, 01:24 AM
It was three days from Hiroshima to Nagasaki (August 6 to August 9)(not that any length of delay would have made a difference, in my opinion).
If it was clear to any number of senior military commanders (at the time, and not upon hindsight and reflection years later) that use of the bomb was unnecessary, their misgivings must not have been reflected in the advice Truman was receiving. Truman said that one of the main considerations in his thinking was how he could have justified the massive American death toll that would have resulted from an invasion of Japan (especially explaining it to the families of the dead soldiers), knowing that he had had it in his power to end the war without invasion. I also recall him saying that, once he made the decision, he didn't lose any sleep over it.
________________
Well, I screwed up again- the surrender was Aug 23, 2 weeks after the dropping of the 2nd atomic bomb! I guess the Japanese were deciding if they wanted Tokyo nuked or Godzilla was going to save them!LOL!!
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