Physicality

[Niko]

Tail:

Anyone able to help out with this? I don't make it to the track much anymore and usually have to watch replays due to other obligations>

Has anyone tracked how the favorite or second favorite does when the horses tail is swishing sideways back and forth. If I remember right it's supposed to mean the horse is agitated. Should be a negative sign but I've never seen any stats to back it up.

Listening to Bailey talk about the horses tail. I was glad to hear he said a flat tail as more to due with a horses confirmation than it's readiness. I'm no horse expert so I was wrong often enough about a horse whose tail looked flat. Again, the difference for those of you who make it work is that the average person like me isn't an expert and can't tell a flat tail from a tail that lays flat normally on a horse. He didn't cover a horses tail swishing sideways though.

For you physicality experts out there, care to lend a guiding hand with some supporting evidence? Thanks in advance

[Faster]

Has anyone tracked how the favorite or second favorite does when the horses tail is swishing sideways back and forth. If I remember right it's supposed to mean the horse is agitated. Should be a negative sign but I've never seen any stats to back it up.


Joe Takach has a page (below) on just the subject.

And yes, swishing tail would have a lot to do with flies. Horse flies. Annoying insect that they are, always trying to bite you on the rump would surely agitate you too. :)

It needs to be said that Joe Takach has spent a lot of time on body language, is a self-proclaimed authority on the subject, but if you read between the lines it is easy to see that some of his stuff is too simplistic and some claims appear to be borrowed and not sufficiently researched.


http://joe-takach.com/Mini-Course/Tail/tail.html

[Jeff P]

In the wild, without human influence of any kind, side to side tail swishing is mostly done to ward off flies. The movement itself can also be a way of communicating an agitated state to other horses.

Transferring the meaning to a man made environment... IMHO side to side tail swishing - during saddling, post parades, and warmups - is a bad sign in general. Chances are there aren't a whole lot of horse flies in the paddock areas at most tracks. Yet you'll see side to side tail activity almost every day.

Sometimes a horse will react negatively to the rider. I have seen cases where the horse seems to be saying "Get this f'ing insect off of me." Very seldom does a horse run competitively under these circumstances.

I've noticed this one as well - especially on hot humid days - a horse will react negatively to the blanket and saddle. "You can't be serious. It's gotta be 105 out here. What are you doing putting that thing on me?"

But when you observe it you kind of have to give it context. I saw races on Wed at AP where entire fields were doing it. My take was that it was a hot humid day and none of them wanted to be out there. On a cool or overcast day if just a single horse is doing it, then I would say that particular horse is agitated about something. Most likely the horse will offer other clues as to what it might be - such as ear postion or head movement. When I have a single selection, and my selection is the only horse doing it - I'll either pass or scale the bet way back. I've saved a lot of money that way.

-jp

.

[Bruddah]

the tape by Bonnie Ledbetter and Chris McCarron.(THE BODY LANGUAGE OF THE RACE HORSE) When you are at the track, it can be a great aid to your handicapping. It will help you easily spot fit and ready horse(s) and those aren't always the favorite(s). However, you just can't see those things with the quik snipets you get on TV.

I have caught many a nice price winner or place horse using the above tapes tutorial and believe it's another tool in the arsenal. Especially, when at the track. :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

It needs to be said that Joe Takach has spent a lot of time on body language, is a self-proclaimed authority on the subject, but if you read between the lines it is easy to see that some of his stuff is too simplistic and some claims appear to be borrowed and not sufficiently researched.

What a hoot!

Can I pass this on to him?

[Valuist]

I've always felt the "flat" or "pancake" tail, as Takach calls it, is much worse than the swishing from flies. A fit, happy horse could have flies, but they likely will not have a flat tail.

[Niko]

Bailey said a flat tail as more to do with the horses confirmation than if the horse is feeling good or not. I gave up on identifying flat tails (when I had time to look at horses) because enough flat tails won-or what I thought was a flat tail. Key there is knowing how a horse looks from race to race.

The swishing tail however.....I didn't attribute it to flies at the paddock because it seems there weren't many or more horses would be doing it. That is what they do in nature though.

I'd love to get Takach on this board. You want to hear some strong opinions....I've spoken to him a couple times and you know how he feels about your thoughts....good guy for racing and very knowledgable.

Thanks all for the input

[46zilzal]

physicality is all about CHANGE in a single horse's last several, there are NO hard and fast rules, only what a SINGLE horse's demeanor tells you at varying times. I have sat with trainers who back that up all the time: these are individuals.

[Hank]

fast Mr.Z, body language observations are certainly STRONGEST as you describe.However very helpfull observations can to made WITHOUT prior veiwings or knowledge of the horse.

[46zilzal]

fast Mr.Z, body language observations are certainly STRONGEST as you describe.However very helpfull observations can to made WITHOUT prior veiwings or knowledge of the horse.
good example was my handle: Zilzal he ALWAYS looked crappy. I have seen claimers dripping with sweat win regularly yet we are told that is a very negative sign. TOO much is made of it so that guys can sell us videotapes.

[DJofSD]

.....but I'll respond to Faster any ways.

I met Joe in 1990. I've made his acquantance in Las Vegas then shortly thereafter crossed his path at the then new facility at Del Mar for simulcast wagering.

He does not read the messages on this board. He's too damned busy running his business.

If you know him you'll already know he really doesn't give a rat's you-know-what about other's opinions let alone those opinions about him.

But as I indicated, your speculation about his ideas being borrowed and being too simplistic made me laugh out loud. And worth an idle minute or two of conversation when I expect to see him this weekend.

Is he a self proclaimed expert? Perhaps. But you know, if you don't have a good opinion about yourself, who will?

[Tom]

I've been reading Joes' stuff since he was at Philly Park years ago. I like his confidence, even when I don't agree. I think he is a good race writer.

[twindouble]

I don't mind talking about "tails", not that I have done an in depth scientific study on it or have any stats on a few thousand horses. What does come to mind there may be something to it, what exactly I don't know when it comes to a horses fitness. I do know this, any animal with a tail sure as heck won't have it between his or her legs when they are ready for a fight or just stand their ground. When they are hurting or sick you won't find it out straight or their Ears for that matter. Besides we all get a rise when we are all worked up but that don't mean you score. :blush:

You all can take it from there, I did notice at Los Alamitos QH racing they always show you horses loading in the gate up close, so you get a good shot of the tails, some are flat on the rump other are up at least 3 inches. Be a good place to do a study on tails and fitness.

Myself, I can't see if the tails are up or down on the video or in the DRF and I do OK.


T.D.

[Faster]

.....but I'll respond to Faster any ways.

Not so.
I have attempted to edit my reply and inadvertently deleted it myself. Later I decided to ignore your post all together. You must have received notification and made some grandiose assumptions that were wrong.

I am sorry I bothered in the first place.

[highnote]

physicality is all about CHANGE in a single horse's last several, there are NO hard and fast rules, only what a SINGLE horse's demeanor tells you at varying times. I have sat with trainers who back that up all the time: these are individuals.

I agree with 46. It's how a horse looks from race to race that is important.

My favorite example is Skip Away. I saw almost every one of his races over a two year period. My friend Nick Mordin and I attended almost every major race meeting in that period and almost every Saturday and Sunday in NY for over a year. When Skip Away was at his peak in the 1997 Breeders' Cup Classic at Hollywood Park we knew he was unbeatable. Plus it was a relatively weak field. We still got 9/5 on him. During the course of the year his physicality began to decline. He lost his shiny coat. He lost his muscle definition. Maybe he put on weight -- I don't remember exactly. But we knew going into the 1998 Breeders' Cup at Churchill he was not the same horse. We knew he would lose. And he did. We thought he should have been scratched because he looked so bad.

What I don't understand is why his trainer, Sonny Hines, paid the supplemental fee. Surely, he must have known what we knew. Or maybe when a trainer is so close to his animal the change in physicality happens so slowly that the trainer doesn't notice? Maybe when you see a horse only once a month as a paddock handicapper you can spot radical changes better than the trainer?

The filly My Flag is my other example that I know I've posted here before. What a great filly! She was a tall and lanky and could run like the wind. But she too declined in her last few races. She looked awful in her last race. Skinny, dull coat, lethargic. We could not understand why Shug would race her. She had no chance of winning -- and I mean none.

Look, any Grade 1 horse that is unfit can win a prep race against weaker horses. But no Grade 1 horse that is unfit can win a Grade 1 race against legitmate Grade 1 horses that are fit.

My two cents.