Teflon Fidel

[bigmack]

Something tells me he'll still be around a while. I guess better him than his brother.

The link shows formerly Top Secret US Army records 16 Operations to destabilize Castro's government with codenames like "Operation Bingo" and "Operation Dirty Trick" (the latter scheme would have tried to pin the possible failure of the Mercury manned orbit flight on Cubans and other Reds)

And to think we could have just sent him a blanket with a dash of Smallpox.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0801061castro1.html

[46zilzal]

this fellow is NOT the boogeyman he is portrayed as. There are many dangerous guys around and he is not one of them.

[bigmack]

There are many dangerous guys around and he is not one of them.
Certainly not dangerous to other countries but his citizens aren't exactly livin large.

Presently, the monthly allotted food per citizen under the ration system is enough to last 7-10 days, provided that all the items included are available, a prospect which is far from certain given the irregular resupply of the bodegas, or small neighborhood markets which distribute rationed items. For example, in the first trimester of 2003 the ration of basic hygiene products, a bar of soap per person and a tube of toothpaste between three individuals, were not available for several months in the capital. (2) Listed below are some basic products listed on the ration card and the quantity for each person (3):

PRODUCT
QUANTITY PER PERSON
Rice 6 lbs. (2.7 kg) per month Beans or peas 20 oz. (0.57 kg) per month Cooking oil 0.4 pints (200 ml) per month Plaintains 3 lbs. (1.36 kg) per month Brown sugar 2 lbs. (0.91 kg) per month Milk 1.76 pints (1 L) per day [children under 7 only] Soy yogurt 1.76 pints (1 L) per day [children aged 7-14 only]

[46zilzal]

ever been there? it is a poor country. My wife (on one of her THREE visits there) lived for several weeks in a farming community. Everytime she or members of her family visit they bring them things that the embargo prevents them from obtaining like toothbrushes and soap.

The label Castro gets as being some dangerous fellow is hogwash.

[bigmack]

Would it be fair to assume that you feel the people of Cuba are suffering as a result of the US Trade Boycott with them and that Fidel has little in the way of responsibility for their plight?

[Tom]

Actually, at one time, he had WMD on his soil.

[bigmack]

Actually, at one time, he had WMD on his soil.
Indubitably
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/621027%20The%20Crisis%20USSR-Cuba.pdf

[JustRalph]

Come on! He is a communist dictator who has put thousands of political prisoners into horrible prisons for 40 years..............Cuba has more political prisoners than any other country.

Why am I not surprised that 46 is defending a communist. Chew on this article doc

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/cascrime.html

Like the way he treats people with HIV?

[46zilzal]

In 2002, the Cuban government reported an HIV prevalence of 0.03%, nearly 11 times lower than that in the United States. International health organizations have reported confidence in Cuba's HIV reporting system. While Cuban government officials have stated that HIV screening and quarantine were both necessary to maintain the low HIV prevalence on the island, at least 3 other factors could explain the epidemiology of HIV in Cuba. First, since Cuba has been politically and socially isolated from countries with a high prevalence of HIV, social-sexual exchange with regions with high HIV prevalence in the 1980s was limited. Second, Farmer has argued that because of guaranteed minimum levels of income and access to education, housing, and health care, Cubans were less susceptible to important risk factors of HIV transmission such as poverty and social inequality. Third, aggressive HIV screening and subsequent contact tracing and counseling of infected individuals may have slowed the rate of HIV transmission independent of quarantine. No systematic epidemiological studies of HIV infection in Cuba have been published that would clarify the relative effects of quarantine, social/political isolation, living standards, or testing and tracing on HIV infection rates.

Although residence in HIV sanatoriums is no longer mandatory for HIV-positive Cubans, Cuba continues to rely on the sanatorium system as transitional counseling and care facilities.

Journal of the American Medical Association.

[46zilzal]

also, an eye witness to one of the sanitoriums related this article.
http://www.cubasolidarity.net/cubahol2.html

[bigmack]

In 2002, the Cuban government reported an HIV prevalence of 0.03%, nearly 11 times lower than that in the United States.
Not if you exclude San Fransicko.

Read under "Trouble in Paradise"
http://www.thebody.com/bp/feb04/cuba_aids.html

[sq764]

In 2002, the Cuban government reported an HIV prevalence of 0.03%, nearly 11 times lower than that in the United States. International health organizations have reported confidence in Cuba's HIV reporting system. While Cuban government officials have stated that HIV screening and quarantine were both necessary to maintain the low HIV prevalence on the island, at least 3 other factors could explain the epidemiology of HIV in Cuba. First, since Cuba has been politically and socially isolated from countries with a high prevalence of HIV, social-sexual exchange with regions with high HIV prevalence in the 1980s was limited. Second, Farmer has argued that because of guaranteed minimum levels of income and access to education, housing, and health care, Cubans were less susceptible to important risk factors of HIV transmission such as poverty and social inequality. Third, aggressive HIV screening and subsequent contact tracing and counseling of infected individuals may have slowed the rate of HIV transmission independent of quarantine. No systematic epidemiological studies of HIV infection in Cuba have been published that would clarify the relative effects of quarantine, social/political isolation, living standards, or testing and tracing on HIV infection rates.

Although residence in HIV sanatoriums is no longer mandatory for HIV-positive Cubans, Cuba continues to rely on the sanatorium system as transitional counseling and care facilities.

Journal of the American Medical Association.
There is one phrase in hear you might be weary of - The CUBAN GOVERNMENT REPORTED

[46zilzal]

Cedric Edwards of New Orleans, a U.S. student of the Cuban medical system reports:

There’s a lot of propaganda against Cuba. My parents were scared. They thought it was dangerous. I was scared to death, but I wanted to get my medical degree no matter what, and I also thought it would be a good opportunity to learn about another country, since I had never traveled outside of the States."

Cuba turned out not to be so scary. "I was shocked in a good way. Everybody was friendly. You see people hitchhiking, which you never see in the U.S. It’s a different environment.

"As an African-American, I don’t feel the racial tension that I feel in the States. That feeling is completely new to me. I feel like I’m free, like I can do whatever I want without fear."

[Tom]

Well, 46, the people in Miami who fled Cuba sure seem to disagree wtih you - dancing in the streets with the rumor his is dead/dying.

Funny, when I heard it this morning, AIDS never entered my mind. That some important criteria for you? :eek:

[46zilzal]

When an epidemic is going to kill over 60 million people worldwide, it is gratifying to see one place where it won't because it was handled SERIOUSLY at the outset.

I work in hostels often where many drug addicts are wasting away. It is one thing to see an 89 year old looking that way, but many of these people are UNDER 30. I don't judge them but their plight effects me directly. It is a waste of life. We have needle exchange programs but once infected it is too late. To see a place where it was looked after as a major public health risk while it was still controlable is amazing and rare

If those folks in Florida think he is dying, they don' know how to read.

[sq764]

When an epidemic is going to kill over 60 million people worldwide, it is gratifying to see one place where it won't because it was handled SERIOUSLY at the outset.

I work in hostels often where many drug addicts are wasting away. It is one thing to see an 89 year old looking that way, but many of these people are UNDER 30. I don't judge them but their plight effects me directly. It is a waste of life. We have needle exchange programs but once infected it is too late. To see a place where it was looked after as a major public health risk while it was still controlable is amazing and rare

If those folks in Florida think he is dying, they don' know how to read.
Yet you seem to overlook that Cuba has one of the highest infant mortality rates, one of the highest suicide rates, one of the worst healthcare systems in the world. Not to mention almost 20% of Cuba's residents have tried to flee, with most of them dying at sea.. (Why would you leave such a great place?)

By the way, how many deaths you think were associated with Castro's cocain trafficking?

Or is it more noble to die from a coke overdose than from AIDS?

[bigmack]

it was handled SERIOUSLY at the outset.
It certainly was as I trust you're aware of the heavy handed way it was "boxed up" Without tangentially going off on a jag on the treatment of HIV and needle exchanges you certaininly must recognize that Cuba is a very, very controlled place. When you have a society that must do as they are told you can isolate things fairly effectively.
I was recently in Molakai and visited the leprosy colony of old. Pretty darn effective way to take care of things when you virtually quarnatine the affected parties from the gen pop.

In any event, pick one thing that you would slight Fidel on.

[46zilzal]

harvard ranks Cuban health care as very effective given their fiscal situation. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/review/review_summer_02/677cuba.html

[JustRalph]

they were locked away. You can contain any health condition by locking the people up and quarantining them. What if Reagan had done that in the 80's? You would have heard a scream like never before. Yet you applaud it in Cuba? Cuba locks everybody up. And many stay locked away for decades

[46zilzal]

yes "little Ronnie" (as Bette Davis often referred to him) did NOTHING.
Although AIDS was first reported in the medical and popular press in 1981, it was only in October 1987 that President Reagan publicly spoke about the epidemic. By the end of that year 59,572 AIDS cases had been reported and 27,909 of those women and men had died.

[bigmack]

Much of the problem was behavioral. You previously refered people under 30 that are affected. Go out with anyone of them for a day and hold their hand and diswade them from shooting up or whatever the vice might be. You'd be hard pressed to convince them otherwise. Expecting the Gov to ask people to conduct themselves in a certain way in this country is unconstitutional - In Cuba you better do it or else!

[46zilzal]

the CDC found it an alarming epidemic, but few listened early enough. When infection rates get exponential, one has to do something early to contriol it.

[bigmack]

Come on 46 it's the first time I've engaged in off top and you're flying around "in thread - off top"
Give me one knock of Fidel from your perspective.

Also, keep in mind:
Debate Rules and Suggestions/Advice on Debating with Others


Avoid the use of Never.
Avoid the use of Always.
Refrain from saying you are wrong.
You can say your idea is mistaken.
Don't disagree with obvious truths.
Attack the idea not the person.
Use many rather than most.
Avoid exaggeration.
Use some rather than many.
The use of often allows for exceptions.
The use of generally allows for exceptions.



Quote sources and numbers.
If it is just an opinion, admit it.
Do not present opinion as facts.
Smile when disagreeing.
Stress the positive.
You do not need to win every battle to win the war.
Concede minor or trivial points.
Avoid bickering, quarreling, and wrangling.
Watch your tone of voice.
Don't win a debate and lose a friend.
Keep your perspective - You're just debating.

[DJofSD]

Fidel, what a great humanitarian.

If you're going to use some aspect of the HIV/AIDS as a metric to hold out his dictatorship as oh such a thing of beauty maybe he can cure what ails Africa.

Or better yet, get the US Representative from MI to claim Fidel is no different than his buddies in Hezbolla.

[sq764]

harvard ranks Cuban health care as very effective given their fiscal situation. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/review/review_summer_02/677cuba.html
It's still one of the worst healthcare systems in the world. You can slice it and spin it any way you want.

[46zilzal]

It's still one of the worst healthcare systems in the world. You can slice it and spin it any way you want.
yes we should believe YOU over the Harvard school of public health. Sure

[PaceAdvantage]

yes "little Ronnie" (as Bette Davis often referred to him) did NOTHING.

So you champion the methods used by Castro to combat the AIDS epidemic?

[sq764]

yes we should believe YOU over the Harvard school of public health. Sure
You quoted that they were 'good based on their fiscal position'..

So if their healthcare budget was 8 bucks, they would still be 'sound' based on the budget restrictions?

Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

[46zilzal]

By Tim Collie. South Florida Sun-Sentinel. April 05, 2001

How good is a Cuban medical education?

If the world's public-health experts are to be believed, a medical degree from Fidel Castro's small island nation can be hung proudly next to diplomas from Harvard or Stanford.

Especially in the field of global public health, Cuban-educated doctors draw raves around the world.

Cubans have propped up a collapsed health system in Haiti, provided care in hurricane-ravaged Honduras and prompted a much-lauded AIDS prevention campaign in Uganda.

[sq764]

By Tim Collie. South Florida Sun-Sentinel. April 05, 2001

How good is a Cuban medical education?

If the world's public-health experts are to be believed, a medical degree from Fidel Castro's small island nation can be hung proudly next to diplomas from Harvard or Stanford.

Especially in the field of global public health, Cuban-educated doctors draw raves around the world.

Cubans have propped up a collapsed health system in Haiti, provided care in hurricane-ravaged Honduras and prompted a much-lauded AIDS prevention campaign in Uganda.
So now we have veered from the status of their healthcare system to the status of a diploma from Cuba?

LOL, seriously, just stop, I cannot watch this anymore.

[46zilzal]

Statement By Diane Kuntz

Staff Associate For International Health

American Public Health Association
Press Conference On May 2, 1996, Lawn Of U.S. Capitol

The American Public Health Association -- representing over 50,000 members -- works to protect the health of people in the United States and around the world. Public health professionals who have served in other countries have long held up the Cuban health care system as a model.


In Cuba all citizens have a right to high quality health care, to education, to day care, and to other social services. The infant mortality rate, life expectancy, and other health indicators in Cuba match those in the world's richest countries. While other countries - including the U.S. - respond to economic problems by cutting back on resources for health, Cuba has steadfastly maintained its commitment to health.

It is often said that Cuba is no longer a threat to the U.S. But that's not true. It is a threat. The threat lies in the example Cuba offers -- an example of a country with the political will to provide good health care to all its citizens.

The U.S. is fighting this threat -- using food, medicine, and medical supplies as weapons. In part as a result of the embargo, many essential products are in short supply in Cuba. Soap, laboratory equipment, textbooks -- all kinds of basic goods are scarce. Cuban doctors must count every pill and measure every drop of medicine they dispense. Cuban citizens -- especially children and elderly people -- are suffering the consequences of our government's policy.

The computers that were confiscated by the Treasury Department are vital components of Cuba's health care system. Many of the computers were donated by members of the American Public Health Association.

It is time to end this inhumane policy and cruel embargo -- this attack on the health of an entire population. The American Public Health Association salutes the fasters, who symbolize the conscience of America. We urge the Administration to release the computers, and we call on Congress to end its war on Cuba.

Diane Kuntz

others recognize the need to just stop the embargo

[sq764]

Statement By Diane Kuntz

Staff Associate For International Health

American Public Health Association
Press Conference On May 2, 1996, Lawn Of U.S. Capitol

The American Public Health Association -- representing over 50,000 members -- works to protect the health of people in the United States and around the world. Public health professionals who have served in other countries have long held up the Cuban health care system as a model.


In Cuba all citizens have a right to high quality health care, to education, to day care, and to other social services. The infant mortality rate, life expectancy, and other health indicators in Cuba match those in the world's richest countries. While other countries - including the U.S. - respond to economic problems by cutting back on resources for health, Cuba has steadfastly maintained its commitment to health.

It is often said that Cuba is no longer a threat to the U.S. But that's not true. It is a threat. The threat lies in the example Cuba offers -- an example of a country with the political will to provide good health care to all its citizens.

The U.S. is fighting this threat -- using food, medicine, and medical supplies as weapons. In part as a result of the embargo, many essential products are in short supply in Cuba. Soap, laboratory equipment, textbooks -- all kinds of basic goods are scarce. Cuban doctors must count every pill and measure every drop of medicine they dispense. Cuban citizens -- especially children and elderly people -- are suffering the consequences of our government's policy.

The computers that were confiscated by the Treasury Department are vital components of Cuba's health care system. Many of the computers were donated by members of the American Public Health Association.

It is time to end this inhumane policy and cruel embargo -- this attack on the health of an entire population. The American Public Health Association salutes the fasters, who symbolize the conscience of America. We urge the Administration to release the computers, and we call on Congress to end its war on Cuba.

Diane Kuntz

others recognize the need to just stop the embargo
1996?? LOL

Just stop, I am almost pissing myself.

[46zilzal]

1996?? LOL

Just stop, I am almost pissing myself.
I sincerely hope you don't do that a lot.

[bigmack]

Just stop, I am almost pissing myself.
Consider yourself lucky. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUxQCf4Fz6w&search=oops%20i%20crapped

[46zilzal]

strange how the WORLD views the embargo vs. the U.S. government as these UN votes to lift the embargo show.

also an interesting review of the embargo: http://leler.com/cuba/embargo.html

[bigmack]

With such a landslide how come it hasn't come to pass?

Oh that's right - it's our embargo.

UN - Utter Nonsense

Just read your referred to article. Who wrote that a 10year old?

[sq764]

With such a landslide how come it hasn't come to pass?

Oh that's right - it's our embargo.

UN - Utter Nonsense

Just read your referred to article. Who wrote that a 10year old?
You mean you don't trust what this guy writes:

http://leler.com/

46 is really really struggling to get someone to agree with him
christ.. poor guy

[JustRalph]

yes "little Ronnie" (as Bette Davis often referred to him) did NOTHING.
Although AIDS was first reported in the medical and popular press in 1981, it was only in October 1987 that President Reagan publicly spoke about the epidemic. By the end of that year 59,572 AIDS cases had been reported and 27,909 of those women and men had died.

so you don't address the point I made by using Reagan as an example. You ignore the point and try to trash Reagan............

I opened the door here and you walked thru and are getting slayed. I congratulate the other posters for taking you to task on your points.

[bigmack]

You mean you don't trust what this guy writes:http://leler.com/
Holy Buckwheat Zydeco 46! This is the source on the review of the embargo?
Thanks for dialing me in sq. Your cred has just exponentially dropped 46.

[Tom]

yes "little Ronnie" (as Bette Davis often referred to him) did NOTHING.
Although AIDS was first reported in the medical and popular press in 1981, it was only in October 1987 that President Reagan publicly spoke about the epidemic. By the end of that year 59,572 AIDS cases had been reported and 27,909 of those women and men had died.

There was a vaccine for AIDS - still is. Abstenence.
Personal responsibility is the silver bullet for AIDS.
You favor needle exchanges, I say that is part of the cause.
Money for AIDS research is a total waste IMHO - we already KNOW how to prevent it.

[Tom]

PS...
1. I hope the SOB IS dead.
2. I think we should lift the embargo for the people's benefit
3. I have no problem with Cubans fleeing here to Florida - we should help them come here. Unlike the Mexican invasion. We owe the Cuban people for the cowardice and utterly disgusting betrayal of them by John Kennedy. 22 million mexicans can stay, but little Elian has to go back! duh!

[DJofSD]

I think we should lift the embargo for the people's benefit

This would revive GM -- especially the Chevy division.

[bigmack]

I think we should lift the embargo for the people's benefit

They can get our stuff but they're on a "cash only" basis.
The feds have a check from Fidel hanging on a wall somewhere in DC returned NSF.
http://globalization.about.com/od/bigstories/a/cubaembargo.htm

[JustRalph]

This would revive GM -- especially the Chevy division.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[46zilzal]

There was a vaccine for AIDS - still is. Abstenence.
Personal responsibility is the silver bullet for AIDS.
You favor needle exchanges, I say that is part of the cause.
Money for AIDS research is a total waste IMHO - we already KNOW how to prevent it.

spoken like a peson with absolutely NO EXPERIENCE in health care and the realities of this life. Tell peeople not to have sex?

Everywhere on earth EDUCATION and public awareness of the science works. No every country on earth has the educational resources of the west or the communication systems.

[Tom]

YOU said no sex, not me.
Is that the only solution - no sex or AIDS?

YOU say exchange needles to encourage durg use - is that any way to educate?

I say, we KNOW how to prevent AIDS and YOU say lack of educations is the problem. DUh! That's is what I said - why spend billions of dollars on finding a cure when we can educate people and prevent it?

I think the ridiculous actions by doctors like you only help spread the disease.

And don't tell me I don't have life experiences - what I don't have is HIV!
And millions of people couldsay the same thing if they weren't busy getting free needles from doctors. Or if people who have it werre not ttreaeted as vicims whose rights would be violated by making public thier names.
This is essential in stemming AIDS - no body with AIDS should have any claim to privacy about it - THEY are a WMD waitng to infect innocent people - so put that in your microscope and stick it in your eyeball.....
DOC!