Michele Wie

[sq764]

Aww, she was so close, then D'OH, choked yet again..

I swear I was not cracking up when she blew it, I swear..

Maybe missing another PGA cut will cheer her up.

[JustRalph]

come on,,,,,,,,she lost by one shot. Sounds like an improvement to me. She made a quarter million for a tie for 2nd. Sounds pretty good to me...........

[schweitz]

Jeeeesh---repeat after me---she is only 16----16!

[cj]

If a 16 yo boy lost to a several time major winner by a shot in a PGA tourney, he'd be hailed as the next Tiger.

[sq764]

come on,,,,,,,,she lost by one shot. Sounds like an improvement to me. She made a quarter million for a tie for 2nd. Sounds pretty good to me...........
Point is she still has won nothing..

she doesnt belong in pga events

[Bubbles]

She's got a ways to go, but in 5 years, there's a distinct possibility she'll be every bit as tough as the top-tier female golfers. There are people on BOTH tours that would KILL for a quarter-million dollar check. She got it at 16. What's more, she shot 68 in the final round!

Does she belong on the men's tour? No, she's not good enough. Better question: Who is? Annika went out once, beat a few guys, and got hailed for it. Wie does it and gets crucified.

Can ya TELL I'm a teenager sympathyzer? :D

[sq764]

She's got a ways to go, but in 5 years, there's a distinct possibility she'll be every bit as tough as the top-tier female golfers. There are people on BOTH tours that would KILL for a quarter-million dollar check. She got it at 16. What's more, she shot 68 in the final round!

Does she belong on the men's tour? No, she's not good enough. Better question: Who is? Annika went out once, beat a few guys, and got hailed for it. Wie does it and gets crucified.

Can ya TELL I'm a teenager sympathyzer? :D
One difference is that annika dominates the lpga tour and has won everything there is to win. wie hasn't won a thing.

[melman]

It's only a matter of a very SHORT period of time before she does. :) Ranked 2nd in the world at the age of 16 they don't "give" anyone that kind of ranking you earn it. If she or her advisers want to play a couple of events on the men's tour I have no problem with that, it's all about the cash and getting extra people to events like the John Deere Classic. BTW Phil to Johnny Miller on NBC at the start of the season made this comment "glad when I was 16 I did not have to play her the way she is playing at 16. :)

[sq764]

It's only a matter of a very SHORT period of time before she does. :) Ranked 2nd in the world at the age of 16 they don't "give" anyone that kind of ranking you earn it. If she or her advisers want to play a couple of events on the men's tour I have no problem with that, it's all about the cash and getting extra people to events like the John Deere Classic. BTW Phil to Johnny Miller on NBC at the start of the season made this comment "glad when I was 16 I did not have to play her the way she is playing at 16. :)
You're exactly right, she's doing it for the cash, they are using her and she is getting smoked.

Maybe next event she can get through the 2nd round instead of having a little tummy ache..

[finfan]

Aww, she was so close, then D'OH, choked yet again..

If shooting 68 in the final round and finishing T2 is choking, then what do you call Annika's final round 70 and finishing T8 (6 shots behind Wie)?

[sq764]

If shooting 68 in the final round and finishing T2 is choking, then what do you call Annika's final round 70 and finishing T8 (6 shots behind Wie)?
Sorenstam has won everything there is to win and has shown that she can win.

Wie has not.

Sorry.

[finfan]

Sorenstam has won everything there is to win and has shown that she can win.

How old was Annika when she won her first LPGA tournament?

[sq764]

How old was Annika when she won her first LPGA tournament?
What is your point here? That Wie is good for a 16 year old? Of course she is,no doubt.

My whole point has been that she doesn't belong playing pga events. She has never won anything in her career.. Is this not true?

[Bubbles]

Wie won the Hawaii Open Women's Division by 13 shots over LPGA pro Cindy Rarick in 2002, and won the Women's Amateur Publinx in 2003. She HAS won tournaments.

[sq764]

Wie won the Hawaii Open Women's Division by 13 shots over LPGA pro Cindy Rarick in 2002, and won the Women's Amateur Publinx in 2003. She HAS won tournaments.
Wow, you are trotting out an amateur event and the Hawaii State Open?

I think you have solidified my point.

[finfan]

She has never won anything in her career.. Is this not true?

Professional career True.


If I was a PGA golfer and was denied an exemption to a tournament because that exemption went to Wie, I would be pissed. We all know it is about ratings, money, etc. Personally I really don't care one way or the other. But the tone of your posts you seem to take glee in her failing to win a tournament. She will win many LPGA tournaments, she will make the cut in PGA tournaments and will qualify for PGA tournaments......eventually.

Did Annika deserve to play in The Colonial in 2003 IYO?

[sq764]

Professional career True.


If I was a PGA golfer and was denied an exemption to a tournament because that exemption went to Wie, I would be pissed. We all know it is about ratings, money, etc. Personally I really don't care one way or the other. But the tone of your posts you seem to take glee in her failing to win a tournament. She will win many LPGA tournaments, she will make the cut in PGA tournaments and will qualify for PGA tournaments......eventually.

Did Annika deserve to play in The Colonial in 2003 IYO?
I just find it all BS, to be honest. Did Sorenstam deserve a pga tour invite? No, IMO.. But she certainly deserved it more than Wie because she dominated her own tour.

I am probably more angry at the media for shoving her down our throats.. It's insulting to good PGA golfers. She is like 88 shots out of the cut and all we hear about is her.. And it's all about money.

[finfan]

I am probably more angry at the media for shoving her down our throats.. It's insulting to good PGA golfers. She is like 88 shots out of the cut and all we hear about is her.. And it's all about money.

I agree totally about the media. It's not her fault she is hyped other than the fact she is a prodigy. But with talk radio, ESPNews, 24/7 cable news, anything remotely unusual has to be discussed ad infinitum, dissected to the nth degree, talking heads blathering on and on. It's why this country has becomed so polarized the last 10 years. But I digress.

[melman]

Hey Bubbles don't get sucked in by the bashers. At 16 this young woman is ranked 2nd in the WORLD among women golfers. Think about that for a minute. If the sponser of an event on the men's tour wants her to appear and the fans keep turning out to see her play then I say good for her.

[rastajenk]

Instead of taking that ranking at face value, I think many of us that follow golf wonder how in the world it can be. Look at the top five, or ten, ranked men in the world. Consistent winners on the tour. Major championship winners. Successful in international events like Ryder Cups, etc. The women's world has people like that; how is that a non-winner like Wie is ranked number two? Makes no sense.

Wie played in this area last year in the US Publinx Championship, or something like that. It's an event that is usually attended by friends and families of the players, and a handful of curious others. Her participation made it the media event of the summer around here, drawing thousands. PGA events already are big draws week after week. If a men's event wants an artificial shot in the arm, it's the Nationwide tour that would benefit the most from it. Let her try her game at that level and see where it takes her, in addition to giving the minor league a media boost. That would make much more sense than entering her in events where she will finish last, or close to it.

[sq764]

Hey Bubbles don't get sucked in by the bashers. At 16 this young woman is ranked 2nd in the WORLD among women golfers. Think about that for a minute. If the sponser of an event on the men's tour wants her to appear and the fans keep turning out to see her play then I say good for her.
Problem is how good is it for her? It's good for her mom and dad's pockets, as well as the tour execs who get additional revenue.. But honestly, what does it do for her to go out and get smoked in men's events?

What did the last pga debacle do for her? She was near dead last before she had her little tummy ache..

[JustRalph]

OK sq........ I get it. You are having fun. That little tummy ache remark reveals a lot about why you are continuing this discussion. OK, we get it. Women aren't real athletes......... I get it now. Sorry I bothered you. I didn't realize your true intentions.

[Valuist]

Problem is how good is it for her? It's good for her mom and dad's pockets, as well as the tour execs who get additional revenue.. But honestly, what does it do for her to go out and get smoked in men's events?

What did the last pga debacle do for her? She was near dead last before she had her little tummy ache..

I think it could go either way. In many athletes (and teams), playing tougher competition makes one tougher, and more battle tested. I know you played baseball....didn't playing against better players make you better? We see it in horse racing. The negative is, in some cases, performing poorly when being overmatched hurts confidence.

[sq764]

OK sq........ I get it. You are having fun. That little tummy ache remark reveals a lot about why you are continuing this discussion. OK, we get it. Women aren't real athletes......... I get it now. Sorry I bothered you. I didn't realize your true intentions.
Women certainly are athletes, why wouldn;t they be?

They belong on the women's tour, that is why they have them, correct?

You can make all the assumptions you would like about my intentions, but the bottom line is she does not belong playing men's events, especially if she cannot even win a women's event. If you don't like that opinion, then that's certainly your choice to do so.

[sq764]

I think it could go either way. In many athletes (and teams), playing tougher competition makes one tougher, and more battle tested. I know you played baseball....didn't playing against better players make you better? We see it in horse racing. The negative is, in some cases, performing poorly when being overmatched hurts confidence.
Well, maybe I just don't see how missing cut after cut and sometimes not even finishing events makes her better or tougher.. But that's me..

[melman]

A bit of a puzzle how you follow golf and yet do not know how they determine world rankings. It's based on merit they do not "give" a player anything. The items are number of events played, finish position in those events, the strength of the field in the events entered, i.e. you get more for a "major" top finish then you do for a regular tournament. Also what you have done in the last couple of years is given more credit not what a player may have done five years ago. While I do not always agree with those rankings they are very close and a "fair" listing. The world ranking sometimes is just not fast enough to catch up to good play i.e. had many talks with a poster "tee" and we both agreed that a couple of years back the rankings were not fast enough in giving VJ the number one over Tiger. I really don't think there is much "debate" among the followers of women's golf who the top two players are it's Annika and Michelle. Of course I always root for Natalie, Morgan, and Paula. :jump: :)

[sq764]

A bit of a puzzle how you follow golf and yet do not know how they determine world rankings. It's based on merit they do not "give" a player anything. The items are number of events played, finish position in those events, the strength of the field in the events entered, i.e. you get more for a "major" top finish then you do for a regular tournament. Also what you have done in the last couple of years is given more credit not what a player may have done five years ago. While I do not always agree with those rankings they are very close and a "fair" listing. The world ranking sometimes is just not fast enough to catch up to good play i.e. had many talks with a poster "tee" and we both agreed that a couple of years back the rankings were not fast enough in giving VJ the number one over Tiger. I really don't think there is much "debate" among the followers of women's golf who the top two players are it's Annika and Michelle. Of course I always root for Natalie, Morgan, and Paula. :jump: :)
And some might say that it's tough to consider someone one of the top 2 players when they have never won a thing.. :)

[melman]

I guess all the cash she has won does not count as a "thing". :jump: Paula (Pretty in Pink :) ) Creamer HAS won a tournament yet is ranked behind Wie so it must all be a "hype" job uh?? :)

[sq764]

I guess all the cash she has won does not count as a "thing". :jump: Paula (Pretty in Pink :) ) Creamer HAS won a tournament yet is ranked behind Wie so it must all be a "hype" job uh?? :)
Talk to me when she wins a tournament, until then...

[PaceAdvantage]

Talk to me when she wins a tournament, until then...

Until then what? What exactly is the debate here? Is the debate supposed to be "Does Wie deserve her ranking?"

If that's the debate, then winning isn't everything that goes into the ranking system, correct?

[Tee]

Just in case anyone is interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_World_Golf_Rankings


http://146.145.120.3/default.asp?c=thegolfchannel&page=golf-w/stat/world-women-golf-rank.htm

[sq764]

Until then what? What exactly is the debate here? Is the debate supposed to be "Does Wie deserve her ranking?"

If that's the debate, then winning isn't everything that goes into the ranking system, correct?
No, my whole debate is that she shouldn't be playing on PGA tuor events.

[JimG]

Just in case anyone is interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_World_Golf_Rankings


http://146.145.120.3/default.asp?c=thegolfchannel&page=golf-w/stat/world-women-golf-rank.htm

Tee,

Looking at those rankings, it looks like she is closer to #1 than #3. Not too shabby for a 16 year old. I would not mind being her agent one bit, whether she has won a pro tournament yet or not.

[JimG]

No, my whole debate is that she shouldn't be playing on PGA tuor events.

Scott,

You and Vijay Singh definitely have something in common there.;)

[PaceAdvantage]

No, my whole debate is that she shouldn't be playing on PGA tuor events.

I don't follow golf or Wie at all (which means I probably shouldn't even be in this debate), but I must ask the obvious. If she shouldn't be playing on PGA tour events, then, sooner or later, both herself and fans and everyone else is going to get tired of seeing her so overmatched. Am I correct here? Or is she not overmatched?

If she is severely overmatched, then the "freak show" will kill itself eventually, and she can move back into LPGA events where she will be properly spotted.

[sq764]

Scott,

You and Vijay Singh definitely have something in common there.;)
Actually Wie and I have something in common - we have both won the same amount of professional tournaments..

[sq764]

I don't follow golf or Wie at all (which means I probably shouldn't even be in this debate), but I must ask the obvious. If she shouldn't be playing on PGA tour events, then, sooner or later, both herself and fans and everyone else is going to get tired of seeing her so overmatched. Am I correct here? Or is she not overmatched?

If she is severely overmatched, then the "freak show" will kill itself eventually, and she can move back into LPGA events where she will be properly spotted.
People were still fascinated with Zippy Chippy after 80 losses in a row, so I don't think we can make any assumptions.

[melman]

I bet it must really frost you that she has attempted to qualify (and failed) for the men's US Open. :) BTW JimG's comment concerning VJ was in regard to the fact that he agrees with you in that women should stay in there place, err the women's tour. :) She has only played at two of the men's events via sponser's invite. So far she has yet to make the cut. I hope she continues to make the attempt and that she does well. It will not be long before she wins on the LPGA tour. Because of her age she plays a limited schedule but once she gets that first win look out. Just looking at how many replies there are to this thread tells me she is creating extra interest in golf esp the Women's Tour. Go girl Go and if that upsets someone so be it. :)

[sq764]

I bet it must really frost you that she has attempted to qualify (and failed) for the men's US Open. :) BTW JimG's comment concerning VJ was in regard to the fact that he agrees with you in that women should stay in there place, err the women's tour. :) She has only played at two of the men's events via sponser's invite. So far she has yet to make the cut. I hope she continues to make the attempt and that she does well. It will not be long before she wins on the LPGA tour. Because of her age she plays a limited schedule but once she gets that first win look out. Just looking at how many replies there are to this thread tells me she is creating extra interest in golf esp the Women's Tour. Go girl Go and if that upsets someone so be it. :)
Again, no one can answer my question as to how playing on the men's tour and getting smoked is helping her develop..

Everyone wants to label me a sexist.. That's cool.

[Hosshead]

Again, no one can answer my question as to how playing on the men's tour and getting smoked is helping her develop..

Maybe it's like a filly running against colts/horses, then "dropping" into a filly race again.
Maybe she'll be closer to the pace.
Only.. she'll be racing against Fillies AND Mares too !

[sq764]

Maybe it's like a filly running against colts/horses, then "dropping" into a filly race again.
Maybe she'll be closer to the pace.
Only.. she'll be racing against Fillies AND Mares too !
Well she certainly pulled up lame in her last PGA event :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tee]

Again, no one can answer my question as to how playing on the men's tour and getting smoked is helping her develop..

I'll try to answer your question with my own experiences.

During my high school years I was about an 8 handicap. Didn't stop me from playing with older, more experienced and better players (guys with handicaps 4 & under.) Played tournaments a bit over my head as well in the championship flight(again 4 & under) instead of the first flight where my handicap would have put me.

Countless times(8-10 tournies a summer) I would go out and shoot tournament rounds of mid to low 80's & get "smoked." Pretty soon though those 80's became high 70's to middle to low 70's. I started cashing in the championship flight & eventually won a few.

Getting back to the topic at hand. The experience, seasoning, etc that Michelle Wie is getting(& already has received) playing against the men, I feel has to be helping her level of play on the women's tour.

[sq764]

I'll try to answer your question with my own experiences.

During my high school years I was about an 8 handicap. Didn't stop me from playing with older, more experienced and better players (guys with handicaps 4 & under.) Played tournaments a bit over my head as well in the championship flight(again 4 & under) instead of the first flight where my handicap would have put me.

Countless times(8-10 tournies a summer) I would go out and shoot tournament rounds of mid to low 80's & get "smoked." Pretty soon though those 80's became high 70's to middle to low 70's. I started cashing in the championship flight & eventually won a few.

Getting back to the topic at hand. The experience, seasoning, etc that Michelle Wie is getting(& already has received) playing against the men, I feel has to be helping her level of play on the women's tour.
Hmm, just wondering what her last event, finishing in 150th and like 9 off the cut did for her.. But maybe thats me..

[cj]

Here is the simple answer. Women do not play the same game that she does. She hits the ball as long as most men, longer than many. She can learn a lot strategically about how to attack holes with her length and when to back off and hit irons from the men. It doesn't matter if she physically performs well in the event, she is learning the strategy. Of course you can be told something, or read it in a book, but it doesn't replace seeing it in action. At this point, she can definitely learn a lot more playing against men than she can against women, as only a very select few play anywhere near similar to her style.

[Tee]

Hmm, just wondering what her last event, finishing in 150th and like 9 off the cut did for her.. But maybe thats me..

What tournament was this? If you are speaking of the John Deere Classic & her w/d & using this instance in which to base your stance - well mabye it's just me, but your stance isn't very stable.

[schweitz]

No, my whole debate is that she shouldn't be playing on PGA tuor events.


Actually, you started this thread about her choking (as perceived by you) in an LPGA event. Face it man---you have a problem with her for some reason.

[Tee]

Tee,

Looking at those rankings, it looks like she is closer to #1 than #3. Not too shabby for a 16 year old. I would not mind being her agent one bit, whether she has won a pro tournament yet or not.

I wouldn't mind being a Tournament Director right now either Jim. :)

[JPinMaryland]

I was following some links to the LPGA rankings and apparently these some sort of system where they measure each competitor "head to head" vis a vis the other competitors. They see how well say Wie finished vs Sorenstam in each tournament.

turns out Annika Sorenstam is the only one wiht a positive record vs Wie. Wie is ahead of almost all the rest and a few ties vs opponents where Wie and said opponent played same tournament only a few times.

One of the rankings is Sagarin's which has been out for about 5 years or so> The official LPGA ranking is quite new. Same idea, same result...

Still it's hard to believe Wie is really second best on that tour, the website that describes Sagarin's system said the same thing.

[sq764]

What tournament was this? If you are speaking of the John Deere Classic & her w/d & using this instance in which to base your stance - well mabye it's just me, but your stance isn't very stable.
It's a factual statement. This did happen, no?

[sq764]

Actually, you started this thread about her choking (as perceived by you) in an LPGA event. Face it man---you have a problem with her for some reason.
I have a problem with her playing on PGA events when she has won absolutely nothing in her career.. If you have a problem with that stance and want to call me a sexist or hater or whatever, I could care less. It's my opinion..

[sq764]

Here is the simple answer. Women do not play the same game that she does. She hits the ball as long as most men, longer than many. She can learn a lot strategically about how to attack holes with her length and when to back off and hit irons from the men. It doesn't matter if she physically performs well in the event, she is learning the strategy. Of course you can be told something, or read it in a book, but it doesn't replace seeing it in action. At this point, she can definitely learn a lot more playing against men than she can against women, as only a very select few play anywhere near similar to her style.
I guess time will tell if it benefits her or not. You can say it will, but that's speculating..

I do not disagree that physically, she can learn some things from the men, but what is this doing to her confidence level?

Maybe my issue is more with her parents for allowing her to do this. Personally I would not let my daughter do it and risk her becoming an emotional mess, which, at times, she seems like she is.

[melman]

We sure have different views of how best to try an improve. When I was a kid playing basketball I was pretty good. Maybe even very good for my own area however my mom and dad encourged me to get into summer leagues with players who were both older and better. I feel this made me work harder to get better, and I feel I did just that, get better. There is always an element of risk involved in life no matter what you are attempting. I think the majority of people who come to see Ms Wie play like to see her do well or in the case of her playing in men's events to see if she can compete with them. So far she has not been, but I do not knock her, her parents, or her advisers for making the attempt. Every time I have seen her interviewed on TV she has always sounded like a sharp young woman. BTW Wie withdrawing from the John Deere is not a one of a kind thing. Both women and men golfers have withdrawn from tournaments for health reasons in the past.

[sq764]

We sure have different views of how best to try an improve. When I was a kid playing basketball I was pretty good. Maybe even very good for my own area however my mom and dad encourged me to get into summer leagues with players who were both older and better. I feel this made me work harder to get better, and I feel I did just that, get better. There is always an element of risk involved in life no matter what you are attempting. I think the majority of people who come to see Ms Wie play like to see her do well or in the case of her playing in men's events to see if she can compete with them. So far she has not been, but I do not knock her, her parents, or her advisers for making the attempt. Every time I have seen her interviewed on TV she has always sounded like a sharp young woman. BTW Wie withdrawing from the John Deere is not a one of a kind thing. Both women and men golfers have withdrawn from tournaments for health reasons in the past.
She is a little kid!! Do any of you realize this? Your parents wanting you to play with older people is fine, but would you tell your 16 year old daughter to go play with 35 year old men?

And I don't care about the W/D, it happens, point is that before she Withdrew she was getting buried..

[melman]

Playing with 35 year old men?? :) In the context of playing a round of golf yes I would no problem. Of course SQ you are entitled to your views, no problem with that but if you want to jump on parents for "pushing" young people take aim at another sport. Like gymnastic's. :jump:

[sq764]

Playing with 35 year old men?? :) In the context of playing a round of golf yes I would no problem. Of course SQ you are entitled to your views, no problem with that but if you want to jump on parents for "pushing" young people take aim at another sport. Like gymnastic's. :jump:
We are not talking about other sports, are we? I thought we we talking about golf, specifically Wie..