6 Baseball Players I wish I could have seen live..

[sq764]

... In no particular order.. (Have only seen replays and old games on these guys. A little too young to catch them live)

1) Babe Ruth - No explanation needed
2) Sandy Koufax - Seemed simply dominant
3) Bob Gibson - Would love to see these guys of today dig in against him
4) Mickey Mantle - My father's idol. (and big ups for doing it drunk)
5) Roberto Clemente - Had all the tools, and a good human being to boot
6) Willie Mays - same as Mantle, except the drunk part

[Valuist]

A pretty good list. I got to see Clemente in his last 3 years or so and all I remember about Mays was his last year as a Met, which wasn't too good. I do remember Gibson fairly well and he was intimidating. Nowadays, he'd probably get numerous suspensions or be in a couple fights a year.

If I had to name 6 I never saw, I'd say Ruth, Ted Williams, Mantle, Gehrig, Koufax and Cobb.

[sq764]

A pretty good list. I got to see Clemente in his last 3 years or so and all I remember about Mays was his last year as a Met, which wasn't too good. I do remember Gibson fairly well and he was intimidating. Nowadays, he'd probably get numerous suspensions or be in a couple fights a year.

If I had to name 6 I never saw, I'd say Ruth, Ted Williams, Mantle, Gehrig, Koufax and Cobb.
They had Gibson on Costas the other day and they were talking about Bonds and the body armor he wears to the plate. They asked Gibson about it and his simple answer was "I think I could break it"

[GaryG]

They had Gibson on Costas the other day and they were talking about Bonds and the body armor he wears to the plate. They asked Gibson about it and his simple answer was "I think I could break it"I would like to see Don Drysdale face Bonds. DD's philosophy was that if he wanted to put a guy on it didn't take 4 pitches to do it, one was enough. When he and Koufax were both in their prime in 1963 it was lights out, beat the Yanks in 4.

[Valuist]

They had Gibson on Costas the other day and they were talking about Bonds and the body armor he wears to the plate. They asked Gibson about it and his simple answer was "I think I could break it"

I think the body armor should be outlawed. Let's face it; the fear factor is a part of the game. Aaron and Ruth never wore body armor.

[falconridge]

I would like to see Don Drysdale face Bonds. DD's philosophy was that if he wanted to put a guy on it didn't take 4 pitches to do it, one was enough.My favorite story about Drysdale involves some mentoring he received during spring training in 1957, the Bums' final year in Brooklyn. The Dodgers had acquired Sal Maglie, a long-time nemesis throughout a career spent mostly with the New York Giants, from Cleveland during the 1956 season, the 19-year-old Drysdale's first in the big leagues. Maglie's notoriety for throwing close to hitters had earned him the nickname "Sal the Barber"--apt for one who so often "shaved" the chins of anyone who had the temerity to crowd the plate when facing the righty hurler. Drysdale, on the mound during a pre-season game in Vero Beach, was about to face a hitter who had stroked a line drive in his previous at-bat. Maglie, who had taken the 6'6" Van Nuys, California native under his wing, signaled for the knockdown pitch. Drysdale complied. After the cheeky batter had risen from his backside, Drysdale looked again toward Maglie. Sal named the same tune, gesturing for a second chorus of chin music, whereupon the youngster dutifully shot another high, way-inside heater in the direction of the batter's bean.

After Drysdale had retired the side (the twice-felled batter waving meekly and futilely at the tall righty's subsequent offerings) and repaired to the Dodger dugout, he asked Maglie for some elucidation on the forty-year-old's pitching strategy. "I understand knocking him down the first time," said Drysdale. "I mean, he did hit the ball pretty hard his first time up. But why twice?" Maglie replied, "So he'll know the first one was no accident!"

[rastajenk]

It's hard to imagine anyone being nicknamed "the Barber" these days. "The Stylist" maybe, but no Barbers out there.

[GaryG]

Baseball was just a different game in those days. The players were modestly paid but played balls to the wall. None of this fist shaking every time a pitcher comes inside. If you did that to Maglie, DD or Gibson the next one would be stuck in your ear. And there were no "warnings to both benches".

[sq764]

Baseball was just a different game in those days. The players were modestly paid but played balls to the wall. None of this fist shaking every time a pitcher comes inside. If you did that to Maglie, DD or Gibson the next one would be stuck in your ear. And there were no "warnings to both benches".
And no GUARANTEED CONTRACTS!!

Imagine being paid per your performance from year to year

[Overlay]

I would have liked to see any of the times when Cobb got on first, and then stole second, third, and home; or the time that Walter Johnson loaded the bases on a hit batter, a walk, and an error that he committed, and then struck out the next three batters on nine pitches; or Carl Hubbell striking out Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Simmons, and Cronin in succession in the 1934 All-Star game.

[GaryG]

My dad played minor league ball in the late 30s and he said it was pretty rough. Ty Cobb wasn't the only one who filed his spikes and they just loved to see a pitcher covering 1st so they could spike him on the foot. And they probably made less money than the average factory worker. That was for love of the game and I sure wish I could have seen him play.

[kenwoodallpromos]

2 of my favorites I did see (on the basepaths) was Wills and Henderson.

[NY BRED]

in my teen years, the brooklyn dogers in the early 50's included the likes of
duke snider, roy camponella,gil hodges, carl furillo,
junior gilliam

and probably one of the the most underated ball players,
sandy amoros,who inmho enabled the dodgers to win the 55 series against the yankees in game 7 of the series

the catch was as eye catching as the famous one of willie mays, but i guess
my brooklyn background influences this statement ;)

[melman]

Just wanted to bring this up when talking about all time greats. IMHO the best pure hitter to ever walk on a field was Ted Williams. Not sure of the exact quotes but this is very close. An old time umpire was being interviewed and was asked have you even called Ted Williams out on strikes? His reply was of course not if Mr Williams did not elect to swing then the pitch must have been a ball. :jump: :)

[sq764]

Just wanted to bring this up when talking about all time greats. IMHO the best pure hitter to ever walk on a field was Ted Williams. Not sure of the exact quotes but this is very close. An old time umpire was being interviewed and was asked have you even called Ted Williams out on strikes? His reply was of course not if Mr Williams did not elect to swing then the pitch must have been a ball. :jump: :)
I always try to imagine what he would have hit on astroturf..

[OTM Al]

I would have to say

Satchel Page
Josh Gibson
Lou Gehrig
Ty Cobb
Mordecai Brown (cause then I could have seen the Cubs win the series)
Walter Johnson

[sq764]

I would have to say

Satchel Page
Josh Gibson
Lou Gehrig
Ty Cobb
Mordecai Brown (cause then I could have seen the Cubs win the series)
Walter Johnson
Wow, you are not even 40 and you're rolling out the OLD SCHOOL players :-)

You must have like 11 Honus Wagner cards sitting in your attic

[rastajenk]

I think Eddie Gaedel belongs somewhere on the list:

http://espn.go.com/media/mlb/2001/0816/photo/a_gaedel_i.jpg

[JustRalph]

the first world series I can actually recall was the 1967 series.

Bob Gibson was the MVP. He was incredible. I was only 7 years old. But I can still remember Curt Gowdy raving about him. Gibson was something else. He is an interesting guy. He was sometimes used as a pinch hitter. I followed him right up until he retired in 75. he suffered from Rickets as a kid, Played for the Harlem Globe Trotters and actually brushed Reggie Jackson Back in an old timers game........... :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Gibson

see video here (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/library/open/hof/gibson_bob.wmv)

[Dave]

Ty Cobb wasn't the only one who filed his spikes and they just loved to see a pitcher covering 1st so they could spike him on the foot. That was for love of the game ......


hehe.....that really cracks me up.

[JPinMaryland]

Clemente is a good pick for this list because you would see things that do not normally show up in box scores or season stats. Like his uncanny ability on the bases, it was....uncanny. Old timers would say he would go an entire season w/o being thrown out on the base paths but they must have been exagerating.

I once saw him start a double play vs the Cubs w/ a ball hit just behind 2B, which he caught on the run, falling backwards, he flipped it to Maz or somebody who then relayed back to first I guess. Very strange play, but he was always involved in stuff like that.

YOu can get a bit of statistical evidence of how good he was on the basepaths by seeing how many times he led the league in runs scored or was close. In 60s, there was not a lot of run scoring so baserunning was at a premium. They did not send CLemente to steal much, so lots of people today do not appreciate what he could do on base paths. He also hit many triples which is also evidence of his speed.

He had good power, but Forbes field was like 357' to left and 450' to CF. He finished with 240 HR but probably would have been 300+ in a normal park. See Bill Jame's book for a better take on that.

He struck out a bit more than you would expect like 70 or 80 times a year. Kaline had a better eye and I think Yaz too. Not sure if this was because Clemente was just a free swinger or there was some strategy.

Another example of how much is missed by stats alone. In game 7 of the 1971 World Series he clearly homered to RF. The ball hit the foul pole and BOUNCED INTO THE FIELD OF PLAY..Idiot ump ruled it a foul ball. It was clearly a HR. His post season stats were outstanding but another HR would have added to the tally.

[JPinMaryland]

Everybody talks about Ty Cobb but almost no one mentions Tris SPeaker. Today most people think there is no comparison between the two but back in the day stupid people actually used to debate this.

One day w/ Baseball encyclopedia in hand I counted that Cobb was getting something like 20 more hits per year and stealing about 20 more bases per year. How many were extra base hits, etc. Then I calculated (using fielding range) how many fly balls in the gap that Speaker was getting to vs the average CF. (these are almost certain doubles or triples)...Bottom line Speaker was probably more valuable to his team.

But this is like heresy to even speak this. :confused:

[Valuist]

And no GUARANTEED CONTRACTS!!

Imagine being paid per your performance from year to year

I believe this is the reason why the NFL is the top sport. I don't begrudge a player big money when they perform. Is Albert Pujols worth $15 million a season? I would say he's worth it more than Tom Cruise or any of the actors who command that kind of money per film. How many times have we seen players who were great UNTIL they got the big guaranteed long term contract??? Once the hunger goes, so does the greatness.

[sq764]

I believe this is the reason why the NFL is the top sport. I don't begrudge a player big money when they perform. Is Albert Pujols worth $15 million a season? I would say he's worth it more than Tom Cruise or any of the actors who command that kind of money per film. How many times have we seen players who were great UNTIL they got the big guaranteed long term contract??? Once the hunger goes, so does the greatness.
I think football has the same problems. You don't have guaranteed contracts but you have insane signing bonuses.. Sure the guy signs for 5 years, $20 million with a $9 million signing bonus.. He's basically got $13 million guaranteed regardless of what he does..

[GaryG]

What I object to is a player that signs a long term contract has a good year and immediately wants a new deal, an upgraded long term contract. By the same token, if the player has a bad year then his contract should be downgraded. Don't think that going to happen any time soon though. I really admire the players who honor the terms of the contract without whining. Pretty funny when TO said he needed a new contract because he had to feed his children.

[sq764]

What I object to is a player that signs a long term contract has a good year and immediately wants a new deal, an upgraded long term contract. By the same token, if the player has a bad year then his contract should be downgraded. Don't think that going to happen any time soon though. I really admire the players who honor the terms of the contract without whining. Pretty funny when TO said he needed a new contract because he had to feed his children.
Yeah,I got to see the TO drama here all last year.. I'll never forget that slime Rosenhous saying "He outplayed his contract"

Not a huge football fan, but I do look forward to October 8th, when Owens comes back to Philly

[shanta]

Lou Gehrig
Sandy Koufax
Ted Williams
Babe Ruth
Joe D
Yogi

[andicap]

No particular order -- I saw Koufax, Clemente and Gibson so ..
.

Ruth
Ty Cobb
Christy Mathewson
Jackie Robinson
Satchel Paige (in the Negro Leagues)
Josh Gibson

Honorable Mention

Joe D.
Cool Papa Bell
Walter Johnson
Dizzy Dean
Cy Young
Cap Anson

[OTM Al]

2 things.

I know the love many of you have for football and that's cool, but let's stick with baseball talk here. I really love baseball and really dislike football, so perhaps I'm a bit biased here, but please.....

Second, why I picked the 6 I did in response to sq

Paige and Gibson....would have liked to see if they were as big as their legends

Gehrig....He was class but had to live in the shadow of Ruth. I've always felt he was just a bit better...either way, that would have been some lineup to watch in action

Cobb....Just to see the maniac hit and run the bases. His early teams with Detroit and the forming team his last years in Philadelphia also include some real monsters

Brown....Like I said, would like to see a winning Cubs team

Johnson....Might have been the best pitcher ever. How many more might he have won if his team didn't stink most years


I guess with the more modern players everything is on tape. You can see greats like Clemente, Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, etc playing in games. Its not being there of course, but you can at least see how they played rather than reading about it.

[skate]

i agree with all the players mentioned, great.

i'll add Pete Rose.

i don't go along with "the nfl" being the top sport. i think they come about 2nd or 3rd to Horse Racing.

[sq764]

i agree with all the players mentioned, great.

i'll add Pete Rose.

i don't go along with "the nfl" being the top sport. i think they come about 2nd or 3rd to Horse Racing.
You never got to see Pete Rose live?

[JimG]

Sandy Koufax
Ted Williams
Babe Ruth
Honus Wagner
Mickey Mantle

[Bathless]

For years, the NL All-Star outfield was Clemente, Aaron, and Mays. If there was ever a better outfield, I don't know it.

Saw Mays a lot, even in his prime. Best all-around player I ever saw. Williams was the best hitter. His .406 season in 1941 gets all the print, but at the age of 41, he hit .388, even more remarkable considering he probably didn't get a single infield hit that year.

Only saw Williams live once. He went hitless and actually struck out once, a rarity. Very memorable game. Ford pitching for Yanks, Skowron playing first. Sox had Jensen on 2nd, Piersall on first. Whitey's move to first is off line, causing Skowron to dive toward the plate side of the bag for the ball. While Skowron is down on his face, Piersall sits on his back and Skowron can't move, allowing Jensen to score from 2nd. Gigantic rhubarb ensues. Stengel goes nuts. Billy Martin goes ballistic. Skowron wants to kill Piersall. Great scene. Yogi wins it with a walk off homer which was up by his eyes. I'm a life-long Yankee-hater, but it's a great memory.

Saw a lot of Koufax and Gibson on TV, but wish I had gotten to see them live. These 2 are probably most responsible for rule changes which hurt the pitchers, most notably lowering the mound.

Would also like to have seen Ruth, Nolan Ryan, and Gehrig (especially playing for Columbia). Also Daryl Strawberry. My brother (who played AA ball), said Straw hit a homer one time which was the hardest he's ever seen a baseball hit, including several Mantle tape-measure jobs.

[falconridge]

Clemente is a good pick for this list [...] hit many triples [...].

He had good power, but Forbes field was like 357' to left and 450' to CF. He finished with 240 HR but probably would have been 300+ in a normal park. See Bill Jame's book for a better take on that.

He struck out a bit more than you would expect like 70 or 80 times a year. Kaline had a better eye and I think Yaz too. Not sure if this was because Clemente was just a free swinger or there was some strategy.Roberto once hit three triples in one game. In another, an 8-7 loss to Cincinnati, he drove in all seven Pirate runs.

There were no cheap home runs at Forbes Field: 365' down the left-field foul line, and another 28' up to clear the scoreboard clock for a four-bagger; 406' to the left-field power alley; 457' to the deepest part of center; 420' to straight-away right. For more on the first steel-and-concrete major league ballpark, and further effusions on Clemente, see http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=223864#post223864.

I always suspected the reason Clemente struck out as often as he did (not that 70-80 times per season is all that much!) was that he rarely received the benefit of the doubt on balls and strikes--certainly not to the degree that other stars of the era--Williams, Mays, Kaline, and even Aaron--did. Fact is, Clemente excelled for many seasons before the non-Pittsburgh press took much notice of the extraordinary player launching laser-like throws from right field and winning batting titles in the Steel City. For much of his career, Clemente was regarded as a sullen, selfish prima donna and a notorious hypochondriac who, according to one manager (Birdie Tebbets? Fred Haney? Gene Mauch?), "didn't always show up wanting to play." One odious example was a Sport magazine article by Harry Jupiter, a hack columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle and frequently official scorer at Candlestick Park. The piece was about the three key men in the battle for the 1966 National League pennant: Mays, Koufax, and Clemente. Jupiter had Mays speaking Oxbridge English and Koufax sneering haughtily at the reporter's intrusions. To Clemente, whose remarks the author rendered phonetically, Jupiter ascribed such locutions as, "Me no feel good today. I theen' me no play."

It wasn't until the 1971 World Series that Clemente had the opportunity to reveal to most fans and baseball writers the kind of player he really was. Before Game 7, he told Roger Angell, author of The Summer Game, "I want everybody in the world to know that this is the way I play all the time. All, season, every season. I gave everything I had to this game." Clemente hit .414 (extending his career World Series hitting streak to 14 games) in the Pirates' improbable triumph over Earl Weaver's Baltimore Orioles, which featured a pitching staff of four 20-game winners. Angell: "There was ... Clemente playing a kind of baseball that none of us had ever seen before--throwing and running and hitting at something close to the level of absolute perfection, playing to win but also playing the game as if it were a form of punishment for everyone else on the field."

Tragically, it wasn't until New Year's Day, 1973, that most people learned what kind of person Clemente was away from the diamond. He had organized a relief effort for victims of the earthquake that had, on December 23, 1972, killed hundreds of residents of Managua, Nicaragua, and left untold thousands of others homeless and destitute. On New Year's Eve, Clemente and four others boarded a DC-7 bound for Managua. Shortly after taking off from San Juan, the plane, seriously overweight with its cargo of food, clothing, medicine, and other relief supplies, crashed into the Atlantic.

[falconridge]

I would have liked to see any of the times when Cobb got on first, and then stole second, third, and home; or the time that Walter Johnson loaded the bases on a hit batter, a walk, and an error that he committed, and then struck out the next three batters on nine pitches; or Carl Hubbell striking out Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Simmons, and Cronin in succession in the 1934 All-Star game.Buck up, 'Lay! At least you got to see John Tsitouris and Elio Chacon. :D

[JPinMaryland]

"....according to one manager (Birdie Tebbets? Fred Haney? Gene Mauch?), "didn't always show up wanting to play."

You maybe thinking of Harry Walker who was a bit of a red neck and coached him 65-67. Either him or Larry SHephard but I dont think Shepard was like that.

Bill James wrote something once about being at one of those SABR dinners or something and a well known coach got up and said something about Joe Morgan being the most intelligent black ball player he had seen; made him sound like a jerk. He didnt mention who the coach was, but I suspect it was Walker.

Was it really 420' to straight away RF? I thought the RF wall came in sharply, but duno about the power alley.

My uncle, BTW, actually did play for Birdy Tebbits, back in Hagerstown in the late 1940s. He was stuck playing 3B for Tiger organization when they had George Kell entrenched at the position.

[OTM Al]

It was a big one, at least compared to modern stadiums. Here are some facts

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national/forbes.htm

[falconridge]

JP:

Sounds like something Harry the Hat might have said, but I know he was a big 'Berto booster. I think it must have been one of those non-descript second-division managers of the period (maybe Fred Hutchinson?).

The right field wall did indeed come in sharply. It was only 300' right down the line, but with a high cyclone fence, so most home runs still had to be pretty well hit (it was the lazy fly ball that just ticked the screen on the way down--for a cheap double--that could give a pitcher fits. It was something like 376' from home to the end of the sharp bend in the right-field fence--not quite straightaway--but 416' to the gate about 60'-70' to right of where they stored the batting cage; again, not quite straightaway--more like center/right-center.

I saw Donn Clendenon hit that batting cage on the fly. The late Dick Stuart was the only batter ever to clear it.

Beat 'em, Bucs!

[JPinMaryland]

In that same series where he started the double play from behind 2B...this was at Wrigley field in '72 BTW...Clemente hit a ball down the LF line, he was digging hard all the way for a triple but one of the grounds crew had left open a garage door of some sort in the LF wall! The ball had bounced off the warning track and into the open garage door. The ump of course ruled it a ground rule double, there was a man on base who had to go back to third and all hell broke loose. It was bizarre this open garage door in the ivy at Wrigley. Same series saw Burt Hooten's debut and he mastered the Bucs, it might have been shutout, cant recall but it was impressive..

Have you seen the film of that HR in game 7? It was nuts the ball clearly ball bounced directly into the field. What were they thinking?

[Stevie Belmont]

Mickey Mantle
Babe Ruth
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Feller
Ted Williams

[ldiatone]

Clemente is a good pick for this list because you would see things that do not normally show up in box scores or season stats. Like his uncanny ability on the bases, it was....uncanny. Old timers would say he would go an entire season w/o being thrown out on the base paths but they must have been exagerating.

I once saw him start a double play vs the Cubs w/ a ball hit just behind 2B, which he caught on the run, falling backwards, he flipped it to Maz or somebody who then relayed back to first I guess. Very strange play, but he was always involved in stuff like that.

YOu can get a bit of statistical evidence of how good he was on the basepaths by seeing how many times he led the league in runs scored or was close. In 60s, there was not a lot of run scoring so baserunning was at a premium. They did not send CLemente to steal much, so lots of people today do not appreciate what he could do on base paths. He also hit many triples which is also evidence of his speed.

He had good power, but Forbes field was like 357' to left and 450' to CF. He finished with 240 HR but probably would have been 300+ in a normal park. See Bill Jame's book for a better take on that.

He struck out a bit more than you would expect like 70 or 80 times a year. Kaline had a better eye and I think Yaz too. Not sure if this was because Clemente was just a free swinger or there was some strategy.

Another example of how much is missed by stats alone. In game 7 of the 1971 World Series he clearly homered to RF. The ball hit the foul pole and BOUNCED INTO THE FIELD OF PLAY..Idiot ump ruled it a foul ball. It was clearly a HR. His post season stats were outstanding but another HR would have added to the tally.
watched him nail a player going from 2nd to third on a fly ball to right. by 5 ft.
"aruba aruba" as said by the prince

[ldiatone]

wait till my wife reads this post about roberto. i won't be able to get her off the post. loves the man.

[Valuist]

i agree with all the players mentioned, great.

i'll add Pete Rose.

i don't go along with "the nfl" being the top sport. i think they come about 2nd or 3rd to Horse Racing.

Nobody loves horse racing more than me. But what generates more interest and TV ratings? Its not even remotely close. The Breeders Cup isn't even in the same solar system as the Super Bowl, interest wise.

[falconridge]

JP,

I remember there being a fishy call on a ball Clemente hit; didn't recall the circumstances, though. There is footage of 1971's WS Game 7 available, for a fee, from MLB.com, but I wouldn't give a nickel to that organization--not even if (in fact, especially if) said nickel guaranteed their prosperity through the year 3000 (coincidentally, precisely the number of Roberto Walker Clemente's regular-season hits over his 18-year career).

Idiatone,

I saw RC gun down two would-be first-to-third runners in consecutive innings at Candlestick. One was Willie Mays, who, as was his wont, had made a big turn rounding second in order to draw the throw. Mays rarely miscalculated with this tactic; he'd know he'd be able to beat the throw, and did it to tantalize the opponent's outfielder into throwing, thereby enabling whoever hit the single to take second. This time, however, the ball was waiting in 3b Bob Bailey's glove before Mays had passed ss Gene Alley. Say Hey just coasted into third and, seeing the ball had already arrived, almost had time to backpedal toward second.

Can't say I ever appreciated Bob Prince calling Clemente "Bobby." Loved Prince's voice, his resonant, gravelly baritone, but--notwithstanding my having been a die-hard Bucs' booster (out of filial piety--my Dad grew up in the Woods Run section of Pittsburgh--I still bear the torch)--never cared for his style.

Mini-quiz:

1) Name the rotund, lefty-swinging backstop who caught Harvey Haddix's 12-inning perfecto (hint: pinch-hitter nonpareil)

2) Name at least one other player involved in the deal that sent Dick Stuart to Boston (bonus: name the other two besides Stuart).

3) Name the winning pitcher in the first-ever World Series night game (bonus: who had the game-winning RBI?).

falconridge
Bill Virdon fan

[rastajenk]

Wasn't Dick Stuart known as Dr. Strangeglove, or was that someone else of that era? Great nick, whoever it was; pretty sure it was Stuart.

Smokey Burgess was the catcher. He was also my go-to catcher in some kind of Spin-O-Matic game I used to play for hours back then; consisted of a team of current stars (late 50's early 60's; Bill Virdon was one) vs. original Hall of Fame types like Ruth and Cobb, etc. Good stuff.

[falconridge]

Right you are, Rasta, on both counts. Dick Stuart's being the Bucs' first-sacker makes all the more remarkable Bill Mazeroski's record of assists and double plays. You know Maz couldn't have benefitted very often from Stuart making a neat pick on a low throw or spearing a wide relay. As Dick Groat said, "Dick [Stuart] did have trouble with that leather thing."

An old Topps card (for which I traded a Juan Marichal pasteboard) listed Forrest "Smokey" Burgess at 5'8" and 210 lbs. Ha! I wonder which leg they weighed. Near the end of his career, Burgess was as nearly spherical as anyone who ever held a place on a big-league roster.

[Overlay]

2) Name at least one other player involved in the deal that sent Dick Stuart to Boston (bonus: name the other two besides Stuart).

3) Name the winning pitcher in the first-ever World Series night game (bonus: who had the game-winning RBI?).

2) 20 November 1962: Dick Stuart and Jack Lamabe from Pittsburgh to Boston for Jim Pagliaroni and Don Schwall

3) Game 4 of the 1971 World Series (October 13, 1971), in which Pittsburgh evened the Series at two games apiece (after having dropped the first two games in Baltimore) by beating the Orioles 4-3 on a pinch-hit single in the bottom of the seventh by Milt Kay, with Bruce Kison picking up the win for the Pirates

[falconridge]

2) 20 November 1962: Dick Stuart and Jack Lamabe from Pittsburgh to Boston for Jim Pagliaroni and Don Schwall

3) Game 4 of the 1971 World Series (October 13, 1971), in which Pittsburgh evened the Series at two games apiece (after having dropped the first two games in Baltimore) by beating the Orioles 4-3 on a pinch-hit single in the bottom of the seventh by Milt Kay, with Bruce Kison picking up the win for the PiratesAn all-expense-paid cruise on the Capt. Peter Peachfuzz-skippered SS Athabasca awaits you.

I assume you meant Milt May, a digital twitch accounting for the mis-strike.

Stuart and Schwall were the key guys in the deal. Schwall, who had been AL Rookie of the Year in 1961 but was coming off a disappointing sophomore campaign, never made much impact in the NL, which in those years was clearly superior to the Junior Loop. Stuart won the RBI title with the Hubmen, and swatted 42 circuit clouts in his first season with Tom Yawkey's nine. Lamabe and Pagliaroni proved to be of little consequence. No question, the BoSox came out better on the deal.

[JPinMaryland]

the fishy call in game 7 was seen when they replayed that game on ESPN classic or whatever it is called.

My dad could not stand Bob Prince. I could not figure out what the big deal was. Near as I could figure dad was convinced Prince was blind as a bat and could not see anything hit to the outfield and where the ball was headed etc. I have no idea if that's what the deal was.

He also thought Murtaugh was insane because he would never bunt and I think he was right. Guy would get on and dad would say "watch he's going to swing away" and sure enuf there'd be a double play or you'd read the box score and see 5 hits and no runs and you'd realize that several runners could have been advanced with bunts.

I wonder if Murtaugh was the reason Clemente did not steal much although it seems like no one was stealing much in the 60s..

[falconridge]

My dad could not stand Bob Prince.Neither could mine. He said he'd switch on the radio just to learn the score--which often took an agonizingly long time--then turn it off. Prince was cloying, annoying, embarrassingly biased, and lame-brainedly cliched.

Murtaugh seemed to have no instincts whatever. Any number of times I'd be thinking, "For the love of Honus Wagner and all that's holy, don't bring in Face (or Sisk, or Cardwell, or whomever); they'll murder him." And Murtaugh would proceed to do just that, with astonishingly predictable, unvariably unhappy results.

Much as my dad hated Prince, he insisted no one could be worse than Rosey Rosewell, who called the Bucs' play-by-play in the 'forties. Curt Gowdy, the colossally overrated "cowboy at the mike," often praised Rosewell--but Gowdy was an idiot (pace, Red Sox fans; like Prince, CG did have a nice timbre).

[rastajenk]

Gates Brown was another bowling-ball-in-a-uniform back in the day.

[JPinMaryland]

I dont know what they saw in Murtaugh he retired for a few years in the 60s then they brought him back for some unknown reason. WHen Virdon took over the team seemed to be better tactically, but alas they could not repeat the world championship. Tanner I thought was real good for a few years then they threw him out after the Pirate Parrot/Cocaine Willie/Dock Ellis on LSD trial of the 80s.

Prince has not been elevated to legendary bad status. Even Dennis Miller will make fun of him as will other people who were barely old enuf to remember him. He was cloying, like you say. He would tell a story about his days as "the Gunner" but then he wouldnt tell you how he got the name, or what was the gist of the story. Real cloying. Does anyone know that story?

[Overlay]

I assume you meant Milt May, a digital twitch accounting for the mis-strike.

You're absolutely right. Pardon the poor editing.

[betchatoo]

... In no particular order.. (Have only seen replays and old games on these guys. A little too young to catch them live)

1) Babe Ruth - No explanation needed
2) Sandy Koufax - Seemed simply dominant
3) Bob Gibson - Would love to see these guys of today dig in against him
4) Mickey Mantle - My father's idol. (and big ups for doing it drunk)
5) Roberto Clemente - Had all the tools, and a good human being to boot
6) Willie Mays - same as Mantle, except the drunk part

Having grown up in Chicago, not far from Wrigley, I got to see all the players you mentioned, except Ruth. Also saw Ted WIlliams (I used to go to Comiskey to root against the Sox), Stan Musial (big arguments in the 50's that he was better than Williams), Jackie Robinson, Roy Campenella, Clete Boyer, Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Hank Aaron and of course, my personal hero, Ernie Banks. In those days I could recite the starting line-ups for every National league team (of course there were only eight then) and most American league teams.

I would love to have seen Ruth, Josh Gibson, Cobb, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Dizzy Dean and Shoeless Joe Jackson. Would also have loved to been around when Hack Wilson drove in 190 runs. With all the homers that have been hit recently no one has come close to his RBI record.

As for announcers, I hated listening to Jack Brickhouse and later Harry Carry, both hall of famers. I loved Jack Quinlan, the Cub radio broadcaster. The Cubs could be 25 games out of it (and usually were) and down by 10 runs, and he would still make the games sound exciting.