Giacomo gets up!

[DrugSalvastore]

It's really great to see this guy back in the winners circle.

I bet a friend he'd win a graded stake this year---I was getting pretty worried about that one.

If any horse would need a rabit it's this horse. He got terrible setup after terrible setup back when he was good---really, he's only had a strong setup to run into four times coming into today.

One of them was a 10 length MSW win in hand, another was a KY Derby win, and in the two others he got beat a length in the Grade 1 Hollywood Futurity and was third in the Sham Stakes with a monumentally abysmal trip.

He got some pace today and helped him just enough. He's obviously not as good as he was as a 3yo in those Derby preps---but, he hasn't fallen off form that badly.

They should really look into getting him a rabbit when he stretches out to ten furlongs. It's really the only way he'll have any kind of shot in those type of races. If you throw out the Belmont, where he came back bad from, No one ever really passes this horse or gets away from him---he really just needs horses to stop in front of him to be successful.

[keilan]

Drugs



I watched the race tonight and the fractions allowed him to just get up at the wire. I luv your last line -- he really just needs horses to stop in front of him to be successful. :)

[kenwoodallpromos]

It's really great to see this guy back in the winners circle.

I bet a friend he'd win a graded stake this year---I was getting pretty worried about that one.

If any horse would need a rabit it's this horse. He got terrible setup after terrible setup back when he was good---really, he's only had a strong setup to run into four times coming into today.

One of them was a 10 length MSW win in hand, another was a KY Derby win, and in the two others he got beat a length in the Grade 1 Hollywood Futurity and was third in the Sham Stakes with a monumentally abysmal trip.

He got some pace today and helped him just enough. He's obviously not as good as he was as a 3yo in those Derby preps---but, he hasn't fallen off form that badly.

They should really look into getting him a rabbit when he stretches out to ten furlongs. It's really the only way he'll have any kind of shot in those type of races. If you throw out the Belmont, where he came back bad from, No one ever really passes this horse or gets away from him---he really just needs horses to stop in front of him to be successful.
____________
So, instead of FC VS. Giacomo, how about FC as Giacomo's rabbit?!LOL!!

[samyn on the green]

Impressive race for Giacomo off the layoff. Most were not expecting him to win today, especially off an extended rest. The horse is honest and makes his late run everytime. Winning a graded stakes off the bench going long affirms his class. He closed gamely today and got up under the wire on a speed favoring course. `Figures to improve 2nd off layoff and may have something to say about the Pac Classic with a 2nd off layoff improvement. This horse seems to have a lot of venom directed towards him but maybe another win or two can earn him the respect he deserves.

He proved thousands of people wrong on Derby day, left them with egg on their face and lint in their pockets. Many of the same people said he will never win another race, he proved them wrong again.

[alydar44]

This horse seems to have a lot of venom directed towards him but maybe another win or two can earn him the respect he deserves.

If he wins the pc classic his detractors will just come up with a lame excuse as to why he won it, having nothing to do with his talent, and that they are still right that he is an allowance horse.

Like today's race they'll use the fast pace and the weak field even though they all thought he wouldn't come close to the money.

[Stevie Belmont]

Slowmo did it...I mean Giacomo. Nice win for him. In that sense. With the big effort, he is set up for the Pac Classic. Looks like he will be going into that race in solid form, will that be enough, will see. He will need to turn it up another notch.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I just checked Giacomo's fractions- he was a couple of 1/5's of 12 seconds per furlong at every split. Like I said, he likes to run even fractions- that is what made him a KY Derby winner. He ran about 24 the first 2f and 6 the last 1/2f.

[the little guy]

Giacomo doesn't have detractors, only realists, as he has never run a legitimately good race in his entire career. He essentially sat behind a five horse speed duel, in a field of total mediocrities, and got up to win by inches. He is a reasonably talented horse who cannot win without getting things entirely his own way. He has never done anything noteworthy without an absolutely perfect setup.

The P Classic? If he wins that race I will be very easy to find....I'll be the guy in the box area at Saratoga wearing a dunce cap and a diaper.




OK.....I usually wear the diaper anyway. But not the dunce cap. Perhaps I should.

[DrugSalvastore]

A lot of the so-called "superstars" in the handicap divison have run nearly carrer worst races when they've had to deal with "rabbits"

If anyone remembers, Bishop Court Hill was entered as a rabbit in last year's Jockey Club Gold Cup. Flower Alley and Lava Man (two of the highest rated horses in the divison today) ended up getting cooked on that pace---and wound up finishing 4th beaten 15 lengths, and 7th beaten 45 lengths. While, a horse with a style similar to Giacomo's named Borrego ran away with the race in hand---the pace scenerio and presence of the rabbit led to the highly misleading result. I picked Flower Alley to win the Classic on this board coming off that race, and he was 2nd beaten a length at 10/1 to favored Saint Liam. Borrego, without the aid of a Pletcher rabbit to sabotage his own stablemate, made no impression and was thoroughly beaten in the BC Classic next out.

The horse with the most natural talent in the handicap division is Commontator...and he's also had a very bad experience with rabbits.

The other "star" in the divison would be Invasor--and he got soundly beat by the freaky Discreet Cat in Dubai---in a race where the pace was jacked-up.

A lot of people believed Spanish Chestnut was used as a rabbit in the 2005 Kentucky Derby to deny favorite Bellamy Road any hope of getting an early lead like he did in his 18 length Wood Memorial win a few weeks earlier...that (and the presence of a TON of other speed) helped setup the Giacomo upset in the Derby.

There are few if any horses with Giacomo's style who are any good. If they go into Grade 1 races, and don't use a rabbit to setup his run, I think they are acting foolishly.

[DrugSalvastore]

Giacomo doesn't have detractors, only realists, as he has never run a legitimately good race in his entire career.

uh huh.

Lemons Forever got the same setup and track bias in her Ky Oaks win this year that Giacomo got in his '05 Kentucky Derby win---carbon copies.

Now, It would be nice if LF got the same abuse poor Giacomo does. As, she truly never has run a legitmately good race in her life.

I bet you must have really despised LF when she ran back off that once-in-a-lifetime setup?

[the little guy]

Lemons Forever is a total piece of filth that, as you know, I embarrassingly thought had a chance in the Mother Goose. I will never make that mistake again.

Just tread lightly dude.....that 20YO is hanging in the balance.

[Tom]

Like Scarlette O'Hara, Giaco has always relied on the kindness of strangers. :rolleyes:

[the little guy]

Great analogy Tom!

Next time.....it's Scarlett.

[JustRalph]

Like Scarlette O'Hara, Giaco has always relied on the kindness of strangers. :rolleyes:

tom, great line..........! You kill me......... :lol: :lol:

[DrugSalvastore]

Do you guys realize....

If Giacomo didn't get up to win the Derby....that means Closing Argument would have won the race.

In that case, I would have been unable to resist and would be indulging in Closing Argument abuse with the rest of you guys.

I also wouldn't be jeopardizing my chances of getting hooked up with a 20 year-old.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Like Scarlette O'Hara, Giaco has always relied on the kindness of strangers. :rolleyes:
How come whith Giacomo speed means nothing and then trip is all that matters? Is a 1:42 worth anything in the race?

[betchatoo]

Like Scarlette O'Hara, Giaco has always relied on the kindness of strangers. :rolleyes:
Damn Tom, you sounded so literate. but it was Blanch DuBois (from Streetcar Named Desire) that relied on the kindness of strangers. You remember, she was a filly that ran at the Fairgrounds.

[rrpic6]

Its great Giacomo won on the eve of our Union's Chubby DiGIACOMO Memorial Charity Golf Tournament for MDA. Makes you believe there's more to winning than handicapping.

[alydar44]

Giacomo doesn't have detractors, only realists, as he has never run a legitimately good race in his entire career. He essentially sat behind a five horse speed duel, in a field of total mediocrities, and got up to win by inches. He is a reasonably talented horse who cannot win without getting things entirely his own way. He has never done anything noteworthy without an absolutely perfect setup.

The P Classic? If he wins that race I will be very easy to find....I'll be the guy in the box area at Saratoga wearing a dunce cap and a diaper.

OK.....I usually wear the diaper anyway. But not the dunce cap. Perhaps I should.

This coming from a clown that defended that dog dynever till the end. Difference between giacomo and dynever is that when giacomo gets a perfect setup, he wins the race. Unlike dynever who hangs in the stretch losing in a duel to seattle fitz.

[alydar44]

How come whith Giacomo speed means nothing and then trip is all that matters? Is a 1:42 worth anything in the race?

See how those detractors conveniently chose to ignore that fact?

Before this race they probably would have bet their life that no way this horse could get up in a 1 1/16 race. Now its the "5 horse speed duel"

I don't think he's a top horse but its just funny how when people form an opionion on a horse, they refuse to change it no matter what happens in the race.

[KingChas]

See how those detractors conveniently chose to ignore that fact?



I don't think he's a top horse but its just funny how when people form an opionion on a horse, they refuse to change it no matter what happens in the race.

Its what's called "The Ny State of Mind".If Empire Maker was healthy for the T.C. races the NY gelding Funny Cide would have been an obscure answer to a future trivia question. ;)

[the little guy]

This coming from a clown that defended that dog dynever till the end. Difference between giacomo and dynever is that when giacomo gets a perfect setup, he wins the race. Unlike dynever who hangs in the stretch losing in a duel to seattle fitz.

Didn't take you long to expose yourself here. I'm sure there are many posters here that know who the faster horse is between Dynever and Giacomo. Of course, with your usual distortion of facts, you ( once again ) fail to quote me correctly.

Then again, considering your antics on the DRF Board, I suppose if anyone was to take my side of the argument you would simply claim they were actually me.

[GMB@BP]

This coming from a clown that defended that dog dynever till the end. Difference between giacomo and dynever is that when giacomo gets a perfect setup, he wins the race. Unlike dynever who hangs in the stretch losing in a duel to seattle fitz.


lol, good one

[GMB@BP]

dynever, while very talented, might be the poster child for underacheiver....do you get credit for living up to your talent?

i mean giacomo has none, and was grade 1 placed at two, grade 1 win at three, and now a grade 2 win at four...........and just imagine if he had any talent!

[the little guy]

Dynever hung like a dog against a far faster contingency.

[alydar44]

Its what's called "The Ny State of Mind".If Empire Maker was healthy for the T.C. races the NY gelding Funny Cide would have been an obscure answer to a future trivia question. ;)

Empire maker the horse that lost to strong hope in a route race?

[KingChas]

No Secretariat that lost to Onion in that route race. :rolleyes:

[alydar44]

Didn't take you long to expose yourself here. I'm sure there are many posters here that know who the faster horse is between Dynever and Giacomo. Of course, with your usual distortion of facts, you ( once again ) fail to quote me correctly.


What did all the speed get Dynever? He would run just fast enough to lose. I'd much rather own a horse that wins with a perfect setup and is honest than a horse that runs faster to get up for 2nd and 3rd.

Put dynever in a claiming race, he would have lost in a duel down the stretch with a pace setter.

[alydar44]

No Secretariat that lost to Onion in that route race. :rolleyes:

But at least secretariat did something in his career to show us that was a fluke.

Or are you still holding onto empire makers "impressive" belmont where he proved absolutely nothing.

[alydar44]

Of course, with your usual distortion of facts, you ( once again ) fail to quote me correctly.

Wow same sh/it different board. Are you saying you weren't dynever's biggest fan?

[KingChas]

I'm comparing Giacomo to Funny Cide.And the NY media hype.Lucky the "Bald Eagle" isn't here to clip their wings anymore.

I've Affirmed to keep the rest of my Sunday Silence(d)! :liar: :lol:

[46zilzal]

Dynever is one of those that CLOSE FOREVER and rarely gets up akin to Cefis, Concern, Stirke the Gold etc. etc.

I'll take a Precisionist, a Siphon or an Affirmed with their phisolophy of "come and get me" anyday of the week.

[the little guy]

Wow same sh/it different board. Are you saying you weren't dynever's biggest fan?



I was always Dynever's biggest fan but that never kept me from honestly evaluating his efforts ( or lack thereof on more than one occasion ).

Dude, you go to DRF and bring me up out of the clear blue sky to criticize me ( I almost NEVER post there anymore ). You even start a thread making false claims about me. Then, when actual friends of mine show up in that thread to defend me, you proceed to claim every one of them is actually me. Now, I stay out of that thread, but send you what I felt was a very nice PM on this site explaining the truth and wishing you well here ( I would be more than happy to reprint that PM here ). Your response? To ignore my PM and call me a clown in your first interaction with me here.

[alydar44]

Awww, I'm sorry. Can we make up?

Seriously, I'd prefer to keep the discussion about horse racing on this board, as opposed to whats been going on at the drf board the last year, which is anything but horse related.

You probably even know yourself your opinions of dynever were anything but objective. You give more credit to dynever's losses than giacomo's wins.

Now you say its because he ran against faster horses even though you referred to those same horses (seattle fitz, bowmans band) as slow when funny cide either beat them or finished ahead of them.

If you want to talk bout horses fine, but please don't respond with a long drawn out post about how I am misquoting you and make this an argument about semantics.

[the little guy]

Awww, I'm sorry. Can we make up?

Seriously, I'd prefer to keep the discussion about horse racing on this board, as opposed to whats been going on at the drf board the last year, which is anything but horse related.

You probably even know yourself your opinions of dynever were anything but objective. You give more credit to dynever's losses than giacomo's wins.

Now you say its because he ran against faster horses even though you referred to those same horses (seattle fitz, bowmans band) as slow when funny cide either beat them or finished ahead of them.

If you want to talk bout horses fine, but please don't respond with a long drawn out post about how I am misquoting you and make this an argument about semantics.

Perhaps you should have thought about some of those things when both ignoring my PM and then calling me a " clown " in your first post directed towards me here. And, if you don't like being called out for misquoting me perhaps you should tell the whole story and not a distortion that suits you.

[KingChas]

I was always Dynever's biggest fan
.

Thought that honor went to Mr.Beyer. :confused:

[GMB@BP]

Thought that honor went to Mr.Beyer. :confused:

its an "andy" thing (:

[the little guy]

Thought that honor went to Mr.Beyer. :confused:

Actually, and I am quite sure that Beyer would back me up on this, but I called him seconds after Dynever finished second in his debut and said " I have seen the future and his name is Dynever ".

OK, he disappointed, but I am hardly embarrassed about that prediction considering his at least reasonable success ( third in the BC Classic ) and the fact that I predicted his strong future based on a distant second place finish.

[alydar44]

Perhaps you should have thought about some of those things when both ignoring my PM and then calling me a " clown " in your first post directed towards me here. And, if you don't like being called out for misquoting me perhaps you should tell the whole story and not a distortion that suits you.

Sorry, I thought the clown comment was a compliment to you. I always thought, by reading all your posts, thats what your goal was to be on a message board.

Again I don't know how calling you dynevers biggest fan is misquoting you.

Does not take a genius to see your bias towards the horse while defending his losses and underachieving. Had dynever been one of those horses you don't like, you would still to this day be ripping his loss to seattle fitz in the brooklyn. But you chose to focus on the positives dynever showed from that race.

On the the other hand when giacomo wins(and funny cide) its time to go to the tape and look for excuses as to why they won, without giving them any credit.

[JPinMaryland]

reprint the PM...C'mon go for it. :jump:

[GMB@BP]

Sorry, I thought the clown comment was a compliment to you. I always thought, by reading all your posts, thats what your goal was to be on a message board.

.

your trolling with a line like that.....

[alydar44]

your trolling with a line like that.....

Thats not even close to trolling. You wanna see trolling go to the drf board and you'll see about 10 accounts that do it. Ask little guy about that.

[the little guy]

reprint the PM...C'mon go for it. :jump:


OK...clearly the high road doesn't work with this poster....


the little guy
Registered User


Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,175
vCash: 3000 come on

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, I am Andy, aka NoFool.

While I am finding your crusade on DRF very amusing, you really are being silly, and I absolutely guarantee you, regardless of what you seem to believe, that not one of the posters you seem to believe is me actually is. Honestly, think of who you are listening to, Handygraph for God's sake.

Frankly, I'm surprised you are acting so paranoid. I actually went back and researched arguments we had in the past ( you can do it through the search function ) and they were hardly anything to get worked up about. In fact, they took place over 2 1/2 years ago during a time when at least we had fun and lively conversations over there. Yeah, we argued, but I am not sure what about them led you to believe I am some sort of psychopath that drums up tons of names. You will choose to believe whatever you want but you are REALLY barking up the wrong tree over there.

Anyway, I imagine you will find this room at least a much better place to talk racing. PA does a good job of monitoring and a lot of the posters are OK.

Best of luck and I hope you enjoy the Saratoga meet.

[GMB@BP]

Thats not even close to trolling. You wanna see trolling go to the drf board and you'll see about 10 accounts that do it. Ask little guy about that.

what does the drf message board have to do with PA, and we dont care....

[46zilzal]

Thats not even close to trolling. You wanna see trolling go to the drf board and you'll see about 10 accounts that do it. Ask little guy about that.
I thought a troll was a guy in Monty Python under a bridge asking questions to King Arthur. Enlighten me as to what it is in this setting.

[alydar44]

what does the drf message board have to do with PA, and we dont care....

What do you have to do with this conversation?

To me a troll is someone whose posts do not contain anything about the subject. You seem to be doing a good job of that.

[46zilzal]

to understand what it being articulated, an inquring mind needs to be familiar with the terminology. Get a grip.

[cj]

Giacomo isn't much. The race was about as weak a G2 for older horses as you are likely to find. The very fact that he was 9/2 against this bunch of has beens and never weres speaks volumes.

He ran OK. I would even say he was an overlay at the off odds. It doesn't say much for his future G1 prospects. I would also say this horse has a lot more to achieve to even be considered on par with Funny Cide.

[KingChas]

I would also say this horse has a lot more to achieve to even be considered on par with Funny Cide.

Come on , if this horse (Giacomo) was NY based and bred.Being the son of Holy Bull the NY media would have turned this into a romantic,enchanted Hollywood Movie setting.Returning at 4yrs old. :jump:

Would Funny Cide still be running after some very poor performances if he were not gelded? I think not.

PS; I rooted for F.C. in person at the Belmont.But this is an overhyped animal. :)
Love story and all. ;)

[JPinMaryland]

He ran OK. I would even say he was an overlay at the off odds. It doesn't say much for his future G1 prospects. I would also say this horse has a lot more to achieve to even be considered on par with Funny Cide.


The Funny Cide/Giacomo match race controvery is approaches fever pitch! :jump:

[DrugSalvastore]

There are high priced claiming horses who could beat Giacomo in a match race.

That's not his game.

He's simply the kind of horse who needs a very fast pace up front---he needs those quality horses softened up for him so he can grind past them late.

He doesn't run down his opposition---he needs his opposition to come back to him in the late stages.

He's made over $2.3 million with that style---there is a turf horse named Better Talk Now who's made a massive chunk of money, and also upset a very important race with a grinding style very similar to Giacomo's. That kind of style is a little better suited for turf racing.

[JustRalph]

In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude, repetitive or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion, including the personal attack of calling others trolls.

From Wikipedia

[GMB@BP]

In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude, repetitive or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion, including the personal attack of calling others trolls.

From Wikipedia

thanks, when you call someone a clown, and then say that it was a compliment, thats a troll (Alydar 44 in this case)

[DrugSalvastore]

Giacomo isn't much. The race was about as weak a G2 for older horses as you are likely to find. The very fact that he was 9/2 against this bunch of has beens and never weres speaks volumes.

He ran OK. I would even say he was an overlay at the off odds. It doesn't say much for his future G1 prospects. I would also say this horse has a lot more to achieve to even be considered on par with Funny Cide.

I hear ya CJ.

However, I don't think anyone--at least anyone competent is really convinced he's all that good of a horse.

He's a horse that needs all the circumstances his way in order to thrive.

Who are the horses superior to him, in his division, with his style? Do you really think horses like a long-in-the-tooth gelding with bad hanging problems like Perfect Drift is all that much better? Certainly Seek Gold isn't nearly as good as Giacomo.

We have already seen three massive collapses in Grade 1 route races at Churchill over the past 15 months. The '05 Kentucky Derby where Giacomo came from left field, on a poor-rail track, to win at 50/1 odds. The '06 Kentucky Oaks where Lemons Forever came from dead last, on a poor-rail track, to win as the longest shot on the board. The '06 Stepen Foster where Seek Gold rallied from dead last late in the race to get up at 91/1 odds.

Take the four highest rated horses in the division right now (Flower Alley, Lava Man, Invasor, and Commontator) and throw in a Giacomo rabbit, as well as other speedy nuisances like Brother Derek, Bright One, etc....and you at least have the recipe for a race that could really play into Giacomo's hands.

[KingChas]

I hear ya CJ.

However, I don't think anyone--at least anyone competent is really convinced he's all that good of a horse.

He's a horse that needs all the circumstances his way in order to thrive.


Giacomo,Funny Cide,Seeking the Gold,Monarchos,Sea Hero.....etc.
All fit this mold.2 minute wonders at Churchill Downs.The point I was trying to make was when your great grandchildren watch the Derby highlights years from now these horses aren't going away.
Great,Good,Average,Lucky,..they will always be there.
The word is respect these horses.

Sorry for not agreeing with all I've never been accussed of being an Ass-Kisser. :kiss:

[Tom]

I thought a troll was a guy in Monty Python under a bridge asking questions to King Arthur. Enlighten me as to what it is in this setting.

Wasn't that the Knights who say "Nit?"

[the little guy]

I thought the idea was to try and evaluate all horses properly. Being overly result oriented in your analysis puts you on a very slippery slope. The name of a race does NOT necessarily make the winner a good horse ( by any stretch of the imagination ). The reality is that Giacomo, while in the top 1% of his generation, is fast for horses that in July of their 4YO season finally win there NW2X condition, but slow for horses that win Grade 2 races in doing so. He got a very nice set up yesterday, and yes I was exagerating that it was a five horse speed duel, but he certainly was in a sweet spot with five horses at least reasonably contesting the pace in front of him. I highly doubt anybody here actually believes Preacheratthebar is a particularly special horse ( other than managing to stay sound in Baffert's barn ).

Since the people here peruse internet chat rooms ( obviously ), those of us that choose to objectively analyze races were forcefed a whole lot of " Oh...he won the Derby...isn't he great ", so it is hardly surprising that those of us that tried to explain that his Derby win was a fluke ( and were generally lambasted for doing so ) have taken a reasonable amount of glee in ultimately being proven 100% correct. Wow, he won yesterday, only 16 months since his last win. Excuse me for not being bowled over by his immense talent.

These comparisons to Funny Cide are baffling. Yes, Funny Cide was overhyped, and I have never been a big fan of his, but a comparison between his and Giacomo's pps is laughable. Even as a 6YO, and well below his best day, Funny Cide would beat Giacomo...and he doesn't need a perfect set up to do so. Funny Cide won the Derby legitimately, OK Empire Maker was probably better and not at his best that day, and followed it up with a fast race at Pimlico, beating a bad field by almost 10 lengths. He hardly disgraced himself in the Belmont ( and certainly ran better than Giacomo did in his Belmont non-effort ). His close defeat in the Suburban the following year was a solid if not spectacular effort and while he beat a bad field ( and an injured Cliff's Edge ) while doing so he did run at least a reasonably fast race in winning the JCGC. No, I don't think Funny Cide was ever as good as his internet hype....but I know he was a better horse than Giacomo and his pps prove it beyond any reasonable doubt.

[JustRalph]

Giacomo,Funny Cide,Seeking the Gold,Monarchos,Sea Hero.....etc.

I don't think Funny fits in with Giacomo at all. I think he was grossly mis-managed and the fact they ran several races trying to force the horse to rate, denied him other chances for big wins. If Todd Pletcher had Funny (ala Balto Star style management) he would have made twice the money post KY Derby.

[KingChas]

"merely a case of a horse that performed well in one race because he got ideal race circumstances one day and adverse ones in the next."

Sorry to upset you but I still think the pro-cappers blew Giacomo's Derby.
Pace cappers should have seen the set up beforehand.Race fell apart. :lol:
Sour Grapes? Live with it! :D

Ps; Ralph was alluding to one dimensional horses (E-S).I consider F.C. in this category.(IMHO).

[GMB@BP]

funny cide has been, and to a degree is still a pretty good horse, I dont think giacomo will ever be considered a good horse, just a longshot Derby winner, which I guess there could be worse things.

[the little guy]

funny cide has been, and to a degree is still a pretty good horse, I dont think giacomo will ever be considered a good horse, just a longshot Derby winner, which I guess there could be worse things.

There definitely are worse things...like DrugS said....Closing Argument.

[KingChas]

Sorry to upset you but I still think the pro-cappers blew Giacomo's Derby.
Pace cappers should have seen the set up beforehand.Race fell apart. :lol:
Sour Grapes? Live with it! :D



To set the record straight.Did anyone see my Noble Causeway cross the line yet? :( :lol:

[the little guy]

To set the record straight.Did anyone see my Noble Causeway cross the line yet? :( :lol:

Frankly, in none of his races.

Except when I bet that cold High Fly-BB Best exacta. I distinctly remember him crossing the wire THAT day.

[alydar44]

I thought the idea was to try and evaluate all horses properly. Being overly result oriented in your analysis puts you on a very slippery slope. The name of a race does NOT necessarily make the winner a good horse ( by any stretch of the imagination ). The reality is that Giacomo, while in the top 1% of his generation, is fast for horses that in July of their 4YO season finally win there NW2X condition, but slow for horses that win Grade 2 races in doing so. He got a very nice set up yesterday, and yes I was exagerating that it was a five horse speed duel, but he certainly was in a sweet spot with five horses at least reasonably contesting the pace in front of him. I highly doubt anybody here actually believes Preacheratthebar is a particularly special horse ( other than managing to stay sound in Baffert's barn ).

Since the people here peruse internet chat rooms ( obviously ), those of us that choose to objectively analyze races were forcefed a whole lot of " Oh...he won the Derby...isn't he great ", so it is hardly surprising that those of us that tried to explain that his Derby win was a fluke ( and were generally lambasted for doing so ) have taken a reasonable amount of glee in ultimately being proven 100% correct. Wow, he won yesterday, only 16 months since his last win. Excuse me for not being bowled over by his immense talent.

I agree that we shouldn't only look at results. For instance, have I heard you once mention any of the trip problems giacomo encountered in some of his losses since the derby (preakness, strub)? No, I just heard you mention that he lost. A little results oriented aren't we?

And I am sure you loved using the "16 months since his last win." How about throwing in that he only raced 5 times since the derby? No I guess it was better to use the 16 months (even though it was really 14) to make your case sound better.

And maybe you can educate me here since I don't follow west coast tracks on a daily basis. You say his race for a G2 was slow. They consistenly go faster than 1.42 for a 1 1/16 race in G2? Wow, I guess the horses are better out there.

And did you think I would let a post go by without mentioning my favorite horse dynever? Didn't he end his career on a year plus winless streak? True dynever was not hyped by the public like FC, and giacomo (cause he never won a race worth anything) but he certainly was hyped by you.

So how can you blame the public for hyping horses that win the derby when you hype a horse that loses to balto star?

[the little guy]

Quite an argument you are looking for. You have now decided that somehow because Dynever didn't become the major star that I had predicted he would be after finishing second in his debut that Giacomo is a better horse than I believe he is. Talk about twisted logic for the sake of an argument. The reality is, not that it is relevent, that Dynever ran many races...the West Virginia Derby, the BC Classic, the Brooklyn, the Hal's Hope and the Dubai World Cup....that were significantly faster than any race that Giacomo has ever run ( by they way, Giacomo got a 100 Beyer fig yesterday ). In those races he finished behind Soto, Pleasantly Perfect, Medaglia D'Oro, Seattle Fitz ( who earned a 111 in that Brooklyn ), Badge of Silver and Roses in May. Granted, those names pale in comparison to the likes of Scrappy T, Andromedas Hero and Preacheratthebar, but they were still pretty solid horses in their own right.

However, none of that is relevent, as I liked Dynever. I liked him as a horse and I rooted for him. The reality is that after he failed to live up to his reputation I was unbiased in my criticism of him. I always made it clear I continued to root for him but I analyzed his races objectively. He was a horse who ran many very fast races but also had the regretable flaw of hanging on the money over and over again. But, and you'll have to excuse me for this, I liked him. Just like I like Sun King, another horse who has failed to live up to VERY high expectations, but like Dynever ran many very good races. You know why I liked these horses? Because I predicted big things from both of them after each one lost their respective debuts. Why don't you post about a maiden LOSER from Saratoga that you expect to have a big career. Let's see if you can find one that does anything close to what either Dynever or Sun King accomplished.


Finally, you mention supposed trip troubles. Well, in the Preakness, despite comments made by Mike Smith, he had no trouble whatsoever. If you had bothered to watch the race as carefully as I did you would have known this. No trip handicapper on earth noticed any trouble. As for the Strub, I did not pay attention, but I'm sure resident expert DrugS can enlighten us. the simple fact is that while Giacomo finished first in the Kentucky Derby, he has NEVER run even one fast race and has never overcome one scintilla of adversity to run even remotely well. What Dynever did or did not accomplish in his career does nothing to change this.

[alydar44]

Ok I think I understand. Because you touted dynever and sun king early in their career, they don't face the same criticism that you give to giacomo and any other horse you don't like? Instead you will go out of your way to praise anything either does because you liked them early on? Is this sport about horses or is it about you?

Of course if it were dynever instead of giacomo, you would have agreed with mike smith in the preakness and went out of your way to focus on his injury and bad ride in the belmont. His strub would have been chalked up as a tough trip and coming off an 8 month layoff.

Face it, had dynever ran the race giacomo ran yesterday, you'd be jumping for joy today. Instead of mentioning the exaggerated 5 horse speed duel, you'd be saying how he was 4 wide and got up for the win on a speed favoring track. You also would have thrown in that he hadn't raced since march and still won a race that he probably needed.

I don't care what you thought of giacomo before yesterday but to just chalk his race yesterday as a nothing win where everything went his way, is just so typical of you. Much easier to come up with lame excuses than to actually have to change your opinion of a horse you don't think is good.

[the_fat_man]

Well, finally got around to watching the replay.

Hey DRUGS, let me know when you'll be offering that online trip handicapping seminar. :lol::lol:

Jerking chains, are we?

[keilan]

What often happens when discussing the merits of either great-good-or average horse flesh is that many have no foundation to work from. They mostly don’t understand a game that has been mercifully unfair to them and attack and twist substantiated arguments at every turn.

I have watched this group never take a stand on any horse before an event and only ever speak out after the fact. FWIW anyone who truly believes that Giacomo is a special horse really needs to take a deep breath and walk away from this game as quickly as they can. Why – because they have no talent whatsoever.

For those of you that take this post as argumentative don’t because I’m really only trying to save you time and money better spent doing something else.

p.s -- hey fats I hope it wasn't too hot in the apartment today :)

[the_fat_man]

For those of you that take this post as argumentative don’t because I’m really only trying to save you time and money better spent doing something else.

p.s -- hey fats I hope it wasn't too hot in the apartment today :)


Not too bad today, thanks. Of course, my broadband is slower than dialup at the moment, which is causing me to sweat. :lol:

You watch alot of replays, do you?

More than DRUGS?

[the little guy]

Ok I think I understand. Because you touted dynever and sun king early in their career, they don't face the same criticism that you give to giacomo and any other horse you don't like? Instead you will go out of your way to praise anything either does because you liked them early on? Is this sport about horses or is it about you?

Of course if it were dynever instead of giacomo, you would have agreed with mike smith in the preakness and went out of your way to focus on his injury and bad ride in the belmont. His strub would have been chalked up as a tough trip and coming off an 8 month layoff.

Face it, had dynever ran the race giacomo ran yesterday, you'd be jumping for joy today. Instead of mentioning the exaggerated 5 horse speed duel, you'd be saying how he was 4 wide and got up for the win on a speed favoring track. You also would have thrown in that he hadn't raced since march and still won a race that he probably needed.

I don't care what you thought of giacomo before yesterday but to just chalk his race yesterday as a nothing win where everything went his way, is just so typical of you. Much easier to come up with lame excuses than to actually have to change your opinion of a horse you don't think is good.

Well, the good news about you is you don't disappoint. You have an opinion, a bad one at that, and don't deviate from it no matter what response you get. You will believe what you want to believe, write whatever you want to write, regardless of what responses you get.

Me? I'll be in Saratoga for the next six weeks. I'll be enjoying my days at the track and my nights living it up in town. All in all, life is going to be very good.

You? Who knows. But my guess is you'll continue to alienate everybody you come into contact with.

Have a great life. Still waiting, however, for an opinion from you BEFORE a race. If you want mine you can catch the Siro's Seminars either on-line or on TV. I'll be on four or five days a week. Think of how much pleasure you can get rooting against my picks.

By the way, I wonder if I'm the only one here who gets the true irony of your posts. Has it occured to you that your screen name is a horse who made a career out of hanging on the money? No need to answer as I won't be responding to your silliness anymore.

[KirisClown]

The win just solidifies the fact that this IS a champion... safe to say that Holy Bull passed on all of his talent and more to this magnificent son of Set Them Free.

[Stevie Belmont]

He is a Kentucky Derby Champion, thats about it at this point. I'm not gonna go crazy over his San Diego win, im not going to diminish it either. He ran a very good race. Lost in all of this mumbo jumbo is the job Sheriffs has done with him. He was ready to go after the long layoff. In my mind he still has to win another Grade I race to be a legitimate champion. I'm not going to say he can't or won't. He still has some things to prove.

[Tom]

By the way, I wonder if I'm the only one here who gets the true irony of your posts. Has it occured to you that your screen name is a horse who made a career out of hanging on the money?

:lol: I was thinking just that, but didn't want to get involved.
Great minds (warped minds?) DO think alike! :lol:

[alydar44]

Well, the good news about you is you don't disappoint. You have an opinion, a bad one at that, and don't deviate from it no matter what response you get. You will believe what you want to believe, write whatever you want to write, regardless of what responses you get.

Me? I'll be in Saratoga for the next six weeks. I'll be enjoying my days at the track and my nights living it up in town. All in all, life is going to be very good.

You? Who knows. But my guess is you'll continue to alienate everybody you come into contact with.

Have a great life. Still waiting, however, for an opinion from you BEFORE a race. If you want mine you can catch the Siro's Seminars either on-line or on TV. I'll be on four or five days a week. Think of how much pleasure you can get rooting against my picks.

By the way, I wonder if I'm the only one here who gets the true irony of your posts. Has it occured to you that your screen name is a horse who made a career out of hanging on the money? No need to answer as I won't be responding to your silliness anymore.

Cmon, as if you could stay away from a horse racing message board for more than 1 hour. I must congratulate you though. I have never heard a person describe themselves better than you just did in your first paragraph.

And you can go ahead and paint me as a person that doesn't make predictions, only rips others. However we both know that is not true. What I rip is when someone makes a prediction, are proven wrong, yet will fight to come up with excuses to try and pretend the result proved his opinion when in reality it is the complete opposite. This is a common occurence with you.

You remind me of a poster on the old TT boards. We used to argue all the time about Ghostzapper. He didn't think he was the best horse in 04. The day of the clark handicap, he posted that the clark proved Ghostzapper was not the top horse because he struggled to defeat st. liam, who just barely won the clark. Then when st. liam ran lights out in the donn, he posted that roses in may running so poorly proved Ghostzappers bc wasn't so impressive. Alright you're not that bad but you get the point.

Its funny (sad, actually) how every discussion between me and you ends in you somehow finding a way to get in that you are on tv. Do you constantly need to remind yourself you're on tv as a confidence booster?

And the alydar comment was pathetic. Thats actually one horse you and me both agree on so I don't know why you're bringing him up in this discussion. Anyone with half a brain (including you) knows alydar wasn't a hanger. We all know alydar would pass dynever with a carriage attached to him.

On a sidenote I do envy you being able to spend the summer up in saratoga. Me I have to go to work everyday in manhattan. It has its benefits though. I see some nice horses. In fact the other day I saw dynever in central park with a buggy attached to him.

[rastajenk]

Seems to me he has to pick up some season-ending hardware to be called a champion. Just winning a few races here and there, and I do mean a few, isn't enough to call him a champion. And rarely Beyering above 100 doesn't exactly improve his standing.

[delayjf]

I found myself rooting for Giacamo, but was a bit surprized by the win. I don't think 1 1/16 is his game at all, but he did make up ground in a final 1/16 of 6 and change. I'm not saying he's special, I'm not saying he's the HOY,but it was a step in the right direction and I do believe he'll improve in the Pacific Classic with the added distance. Great or not, I'll be rooting for him.

[alydar44]

I found myself rooting for Giacamo, but was a bit surprized by the win. I don't think 1 1/16 is his game at all, but he did make up ground in a final 1/16 of 6 and change. I'm not saying he's special, I'm not saying he's the HOY,but it was a step in the right direction and I do believe he'll improve in the Pacific Classic with the added distance. Great or not, I'll be rooting for him.

My thoughts exactly. All his detractors insist on saying he's not a champion but I don't remember anyone ever calling him a champion. He is an honest horse and whether they want to admit it or not, he won at a distance that no one thought he could not matter what kind of setup he got. But I guess its just easier for them to twist the facts so they can hold their precious opinion intact that he is has no talent.

[rastajenk]

Well then you didn't read post #71.

[alydar44]

Well then you didn't read post #71.

I assume that poster was joking. He also said that holy bull passed on all his talent to him.

And even if he's not joking, thats 1 poster so far that says he's a champion. I think people exaggerate when they say giacomo is overhyped. How much have we heard people mention this horse since he lost the belmont or even the preakness?

Why is it that some horse racing fans cling onto what the general public says about a horse a week after he wins the derby? They spend the rest of the horses career knocking him because some non racing fans overhyped him for a week. Doesn't make any sense.

[GMB@BP]

Well then you didn't read post #71.

i think the avater with holy bull and referene to holy bull was a tip he was joking, but i will let kiris address his champion reference

[KirisClown]

lol, of course I was joking... the entire post was A JOKE..

Champion? As much talent as Holy Bull? Magnificent? right....

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/6268/holybull122zu6.jpg

[KirisClown]

i think the avater with holy bull and referene to holy bull was a tip he was joking, but i will let kiris address his champion reference

Greg, the avatar on here is Fourstars Allstar nosing out Sea Hero... :)

[GMB@BP]

ahhh,

my bad,

always trying to trip me up, which is pretty dam easy

[rastajenk]

Aye, I should have known. I had just come from a board that's known more for gushing sentimentalism than the reality-based observations that go on here, and I was still in literal-interpretation mode (and I bet Kiri's knows which one, if he's the same KC as there). Mea culpa.

[KirisClown]

I think im the only one who would have Kiri's Clown as an sn... :cool:

1995 Sword Dancer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGUB8_X--NY)

I can guess which site it is... I basically avoid them all now, they're so laden with nonsense.... 95% of the posters are living in a fantasy world.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by the little guy
… I'll be in Saratoga for the next six weeks. I'll be enjoying my days at the track and my nights living it up in town. All in all, life is going to be very good.

You? Who knows. But my guess is you'll continue to alienate everybody you come into contact with.

Have a great life. Still waiting, however, for an opinion from you BEFORE a race. If you want mine you can catch the Siro's Seminars either on-line or on TV. I'll be on four or five days a week. Think of how much pleasure you can get rooting against my picks.

… No need to answer as I won't be responding to your silliness anymore.:eek: :lol: :( Originally posted by alydar44
… Its funny (sad, actually) how every discussion between me and you ends in you somehow finding a way to get in that you are on tv. Do you constantly need to remind yourself you're on tv as a confidence booster?

… We all know alydar would pass dynever with a carriage attached to him.

On a sidenote I do envy you being able to spend the summer up in saratoga. Me I have to go to work everyday in manhattan. It has its benefits though. I see some nice horses. In fact the other day I saw dynever in central park with a buggy attached to him.A4,
Congratulations. You have just received the ultimate unintentional compliment: a tlg confrontation-avoidance kiss-off. As he didn’t say he was putting you on ignore, though, he may have either learned something or else expects to. I wonder if this qualifies as cut-and-run politics?

I myself would rather ride in Central Park horse cabs in the evening coolness than watch Budweiser Clydesdales in the afternoon heat. It seems fitting somehow that horses pull horse carts and horses’ a$$s pull TV carts. ;)

[GMB@BP]

Since the people here peruse Internet chat rooms ( obviously ), those of us that choose to objectively analyze races were forcefed a whole lot of " Oh...he won the Derby...isn't he great ", so it is hardly surprising that those of us that tried to explain that his Derby win was a fluke ( and were generally lambasted for doing so ) have taken a reasonable amount of glee in ultimately being proven 100% correct. Wow, he won yesterday, only 16 months since his last win. Excuse me for not being bowled over by his immense talent.



I disagree with this paragraph, not from any type of analysis, but from the standpoint EVERY article I read from a noted handicapper came out and said it was a fluke, the idea it was a fluke was hardly original and frankly pretty easy to spot. I would like to find the articles that stated otherwise. Sure there was hope he would be something more, but it was just that, hope and I cant find an article that stated otherwise. I found some that explained the win from the aspect he had been hindered in the derby preps and need a better setup, but could find none that heralded the race as a great performance. I find taking glee in this case the way I would if I was gloating about calling Ghostzapper a superstar minutes after his maiden win (which i did if you remember)...it was the obvious.

I remember Beyers article, which I think is part of the point of your paragraph, and if memory serves it just had such a negative tone to it that it came off like he was generally upset that such a slow horse could win the derby.

[46zilzal]

we had three fellows in our group who figured out that Giacomo was the winner, so it wasn't a fluke based upon the race prior to the S.A. Derby.

[PaceAdvantage]

Seriously, I'd prefer to keep the discussion about horse racing on this board, as opposed to whats been going on at the drf board the last year, which is anything but horse related.

Oh, don't you worry. I'll make sure things stay on course....

As for you, you're a newbie on this board. I don't like newbies who stir up a shitstorm. Take that for what it is....

[Tom]

46, Giaco came in 2nd or 3rd ranked for LP, depending on which line I used.
I just did not give him a shot. D'oh!

But.....more than one line got him in there.

D'oh! D'oh!

[KingChas]

:

You watch alot of replays, do you?



Yea Fats, they do.
Help's keep their beer glass full( :( ).
And distort's them from reality for a while. :D