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sq764
07-12-2006, 11:45 AM
Is anyone else getting tired of seeing and hearing about Michele Wie trying to make a PGA tour cut? Especially when she has won exactly nothing in her career?

She's talented, sure, but what exactly is she accomplishing by continuing to miss cuts week after week, besides fattening the pockets of these tour execs?

Yes, I am aware she is rich now with endorsements, but if she is as good as people say she is and will be, that would come in due time. She is 16 years old and I think they are ruining her childhood..

But that's my 2 cents.

Buddha
07-12-2006, 12:20 PM
I totally agree. Until she plays against women and actually wins a tournament, I see no reason she should be trying to make a PGA event and cut. She is just wasting time and the chance to actually compete where she can win.

sq764
07-13-2006, 09:53 AM
Maybe THIS will be the tournament she makes the cut..

then again, say she makes the cut and finished like 65th.. Who cares?

chickenhead
07-13-2006, 11:47 AM
I think she needs to be playing LPGA so she learns how to win...she has choked up now a couple of times when it came right down to it, missing putts, etc. She should be maturing down at the JV level, once she learns how to dominate them she can try out for Varsity.

JustRalph
07-13-2006, 12:39 PM
She is 16! Give her a little time to mature...........I think she will be a force on the ladies tour........and make some serious noise with the boyz

Buddha
07-13-2006, 12:43 PM
The way it is going Ralph, I don't know if she wants to face the ladies. She is doing everything to make a PGA cut and even the US open.

sq764
07-13-2006, 01:13 PM
She is 16! Give her a little time to mature...........I think she will be a force on the ladies tour........and make some serious noise with the boyz
JR, the point is what is she gaining by playing in the PGA tours and missing every cut?

What is she gaining if she makes a cut on the PGA tour?

Seems like she is solely out to prove something..

Win SOMETHING before you try to compete with the men

JustRalph
07-13-2006, 02:50 PM
I think that at the level she is playing, it is all about pressure. Overcoming it involves being " in it" and playing under pressure. I think somebody is directing her to play as much pressure golf as possible. For her future betterment. Time will tell whether it works or not.

sq764
07-13-2006, 02:56 PM
I think that at the level she is playing, it is all about pressure. Overcoming it involves being " in it" and playing under pressure. I think somebody is directing her to play as much pressure golf as possible. For her future betterment. Time will tell whether it works or not.
I don't think it's beneficial to continue to lose..

Put it in horse terms- If you had a $50K claimer, would you race it against $100K or $150K claimers to see how it fares against better competition? Like Wie, you would know the horse will never ever win one of those races, and what does a last place finish accomplish?

Valuist
07-13-2006, 03:25 PM
2 reasons why they love to market her:

1) Can't she drive a ridiculous distance? Outdrive plenty of men? Everyone likes to see the long ball.

2) Who would the public rather look at, her or Fuzzy Zoeller?

Like it or not, its true. Anna Kournikova and Danica Patrick have gotten plenty of publicity without winning anything.

rastajenk
07-13-2006, 03:39 PM
There can't be much pressure in being five over par and twelve shots off the lead, as she is now.

Valuist
07-13-2006, 03:48 PM
The public and media also seem obsessed with youth. Look at all the attention 3YOs get and how little the non-racing public cares about the older horses. Remember Dwight Gooden when he came up? Hershel Walker and Maurice Clarett as freshmen? Look at all the attention Lebron James had before he was even a junior in high school. Other than James, its pretty tough to live up to all the hype.

sq764
07-13-2006, 04:06 PM
2 reasons why they love to market her:

1) Can't she drive a ridiculous distance? Outdrive plenty of men? Everyone likes to see the long ball.

2) Who would the public rather look at, her or Fuzzy Zoeller?

Like it or not, its true. Anna Kournikova and Danica Patrick have gotten plenty of publicity without winning anything.
Yeah and Kournikova and Patrick are a joke now.. No one takes them seriously.

sq764
07-13-2006, 04:08 PM
There can't be much pressure in being five over par and twelve shots off the lead, as she is now.
You mean 86th place isn't good :-)

sq764
07-13-2006, 04:09 PM
The public and media also seem obsessed with youth. Look at all the attention 3YOs get and how little the non-racing public cares about the older horses. Remember Dwight Gooden when he came up? Hershel Walker and Maurice Clarett as freshmen? Look at all the attention Lebron James had before he was even a junior in high school. Other than James, its pretty tough to live up to all the hype.
But these athletes you mentioned were playing where they belonged.. They were professionals in a men's sport, playing against other men.

I mean if Reggie Bush played in the NFL when he was 16, he would have gotten killed..

Valuist
07-13-2006, 04:26 PM
I agree Kournikova and Patrick are a joke. With Walker and Clarett, they were extremely hyped because they were freshmen who dominated. Walker ended up having a useful, although unspectacular career and Clarett hasn't been on the football field since (other than training camp w/the Broncos). The first time I heard about Wie was that she was driving over 300 yards at age 13, or something like that. Its interesting how the media picks and chooses who it wants to hype and who it will ignore. Sometimes its hard to figure out why.

sq764
07-13-2006, 04:54 PM
I agree Kournikova and Patrick are a joke. With Walker and Clarett, they were extremely hyped because they were freshmen who dominated. Walker ended up having a useful, although unspectacular career and Clarett hasn't been on the football field since (other than training camp w/the Broncos). The first time I heard about Wie was that she was driving over 300 yards at age 13, or something like that. Its interesting how the media picks and chooses who it wants to hype and who it will ignore. Sometimes its hard to figure out why.
Ithink it's pretty clear why the media hypes certain females - Kournakova?? (I wonder why)..

Patrick - probably because she is relatively attractive

Wie- She is also probably attractive to some men..

Pace Cap'n
07-13-2006, 05:16 PM
I agree Kournikova and Patrick are a joke.

Three poles ain't no joke.

chickenhead
07-13-2006, 05:17 PM
Wie- She is also probably attractive to some men..

She's not bad looking, 6 ft. tall....and the LPGA girls she hangs out with only make her look better:

cj
07-13-2006, 06:03 PM
Wie- She is also probably attractive to some men..

Pedophiles?

melman
07-13-2006, 07:26 PM
I agree with JR on this one. Just 16 and already has been very much a factor in LPGA Majors. On the men's tour she has competed exactly 5 times which is not losing week after week. The reason she has gotten the exemption to play on the men's tour those five times is of course money. It's what makes all the various golf tours run. BTW how old was Tiger when he won his first pro event?? Very true she has yet to win an LPGA tour event but it's only a matter of time. Just ask Phil how good he thinks she is. :)

toetoe
07-14-2006, 12:30 AM
Nothing personal, but I'm underwhelmed by Miss Wie. Don't forget, though, that they simply MUST spoon-feed our heroes and heroines to us.

Her game is not impressive, aside from driving distance ( :sleeping: ), but anyone that gets a sponsor's exemption gets in. I have no problem with the rule. Just don't lead off the news with her score unless it's the low round. It's all a Wie bit much. :D :bang:

sq764
07-14-2006, 09:30 AM
Pedophiles?
Probably the same guys who made the website with the running clock on when the Olsen twins would turn legal.

sq764
07-14-2006, 09:31 AM
I agree with JR on this one. Just 16 and already has been very much a factor in LPGA Majors. On the men's tour she has competed exactly 5 times which is not losing week after week. The reason she has gotten the exemption to play on the men's tour those five times is of course money. It's what makes all the various golf tours run. BTW how old was Tiger when he won his first pro event?? Very true she has yet to win an LPGA tour event but it's only a matter of time. Just ask Phil how good he thinks she is. :)
But what is she accomplishing sitting in 70th or 86 or whatever in a men's tour?

It draws more revenue for the 2 rounds she gets to shoot, sure, but in the long run, does it really make her a better golfer?

sq764
07-14-2006, 04:35 PM
Nothing personal, but I'm underwhelmed by Miss Wie. Don't forget, though, that they simply MUST spoon-feed our heroes and heroines to us.

Her game is not impressive, aside from driving distance ( :sleeping: ), but anyone that gets a sponsor's exemption gets in. I have no problem with the rule. Just don't lead off the news with her score unless it's the low round. It's all a Wie bit much. :D :bang:
Tied for 143rd at +7.. Still not impressed?? :-)
\

Hosshead
07-14-2006, 09:49 PM
She withdrew from this competition. Too much heat.

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news;_ylt=Aua68IuWRbhPBILJImUnroc5nYcB?slug=ap-deereclassic&prov=ap&type=lgns

How did I know?
Because the headlines were about her, not the current leader.
But I have to admit, if I had millions in endorsement $ thrown at me, I'd take it now, just in case it's not there later.

sq764
07-14-2006, 11:33 PM
She withdrew from this competition. Too much heat.

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news;_ylt=Aua68IuWRbhPBILJImUnroc5nYcB?slug=ap-deereclassic&prov=ap&type=lgns

How did I know?
Because the headlines were about her, not the current leader.
But I have to admit, if I had millions in endorsement $ thrown at me, I'd take it now, just in case it's not there later.
Amazing how over 100 other older males were able to survive the heat :-)

pressman
07-15-2006, 08:09 AM
She doesnt belong atleast not yet I think she has "Wie,Wie Envy" !

Pace Cap'n
07-15-2006, 09:14 AM
Does anyone think it is her decision whether to enter the men's tourneys?

sq764
07-15-2006, 10:34 AM
Does anyone think it is her decision whether to enter the men's tourneys?
Who else's would it be?

Pace Cap'n
07-15-2006, 11:35 AM
Who else's would it be?

Her father's, or her managment team, or Nike's, possibly.

sq764
07-15-2006, 12:34 PM
Her father's, or her managment team, or Nike's, possibly.
Well whoever it is behind it, the act is getting old.

About as old as Danica Patruick and her zero wins all year, with no finishes above 6th..

freeneasy
07-23-2006, 08:46 PM
on the mens tour. i garantee you that nobody tuned in to watch her kick anybody's ass on the mens tour.
she will never win a tournament on the mens tour because she cant and the reason she cant is because she does'nt have a clue as to how to win and what it takes to win on the mens tour. i mean when she steps onto the first tee she looks like some kind of a misplaced cartoon character out there with a driver in her hands.
theres a reason why golf, tennis, baseball, track and field, sking, contact sports such as hockey, football, soccor, boxing, karate, fencing, wrestling ect. do not mix the men and women's compitition together, and the plain and simple truth for this reason is because women are never better and can never be better then men, and the simple reason for that is is because men on any competitive level involving physical exertion and or contact will always be better then women and anyone who thinks any kind of otherwise is simply a femininist righty/lefty , gay or completely dilusional and thats it. we all know it. you know it, i know it and every other male out there knows it and every women out there knows it too. thats just the way it will always be because thats the only way it can be. women cannot beat men, man will always beat women.
the only time you see "the girls beat the boys" is in a dalt wisney movie and the pga is no walt disney movie, so i say,
miss (wish i had a) wei? you've done a lousy immitation of a man and theres never going to be any kind of a place for you on the mens tour so why dont you just pack your balls..auu golf balls and try to find your way back to the womens tour, get with your own and just kinda, you know, let the men have their own little "funny ways about them" cause girl. aint no one gonna ever come up to you and say "you da man wei, you da man" you'd need a set of cajones for that ithinknowwouldn'tya?
just go and leave us alone fcol

JPinMaryland
07-23-2006, 09:48 PM
First off I think Danica Patrick is a pretty solid driver, hell she was leading indy near the end, I think it was last year. Kournikova was something of a joke although not really a bad player all in all..

On to Michelle Wie. I agree with the original postings...This is a very bad publicity deal run amok. SHe's a prodigy of sorts, a very good amateur who hasnt proved she can beat professional women, let alone men. If you think about it there are women only a year or two older than her that would probably have better chance of making a men's cut: Tressle, Paula Creamer there are a number of others. How old Golbis? 20?

But they are not going to waste their effort on such a stunt since the odds ar long and no one is giving them an exemption to do it. That shows how much a joke the Wie thing is. IN a year or two we will see that she is maybe on these girls level and maybe not.

There's a sports radio guy here in DC; Steve Czaban, who did some research and found that surprisingly Wie has actually played in something like 24 LPGA tour events (maybe it was both mens and womens) and she has finished poorly in nearly all of them. Every time she was in the hunt she closed poorly. He announced this a few weeks ago, about the same time this thread was gettign started.

Not sure what that means for the future but clearly she is not better than the 18, 19 yr. old women out there on tour now.

My guess is in 12-18 months the public will tire of this spectacle and then it will be up to Michelle to see if she really has the guts to grind it out on tour or whether it will just get too much for her. In about 3 or 4 years she will have to realy make a decision to be serious about playing or go to med school or something.

THere are plenty of men prodigies who never really made it e.g. Bobby Clampett.

sq764
07-23-2006, 10:04 PM
Problem with Patrick and Wie is that you and I have won as many PGA,LPGA and Indy car races as both of them have in their careers.

Danica's act is getting old, Wie is getting downright stupid..

(Steve Czeban from the 'First Team on Fox?? If so, I love those guys. I am on my way to work around 8:30 and catch the tail end of their show everyday..


First off I think Danica Patrick is a pretty solid driver, hell she was leading indy near the end, I think it was last year. Kournikova was something of a joke although not really a bad player all in all..

On to Michelle Wie. I agree with the original postings...This is a very bad publicity deal run amok. SHe's a prodigy of sorts, a very good amateur who hasnt proved she can beat professional women, let alone men. If you think about it there are women only a year or two older than her that would probably have better chance of making a men's cut: Tressle, Paula Creamer there are a number of others. How old Golbis? 20?

But they are not going to waste their effort on such a stunt since the odds ar long and no one is giving them an exemption to do it. That shows how much a joke the Wie thing is. IN a year or two we will see that she is maybe on these girls level and maybe not.

There's a sports radio guy here in DC; Steve Czaban, who did some research and found that surprisingly Wie has actually played in something like 24 LPGA tour events (maybe it was both mens and womens) and she has finished poorly in nearly all of them. Every time she was in the hunt she closed poorly. He announced this a few weeks ago, about the same time this thread was gettign started.

Not sure what that means for the future but clearly she is not better than the 18, 19 yr. old women out there on tour now.

My guess is in 12-18 months the public will tire of this spectacle and then it will be up to Michelle to see if she really has the guts to grind it out on tour or whether it will just get too much for her. In about 3 or 4 years she will have to realy make a decision to be serious about playing or go to med school or something.

THere are plenty of men prodigies who never really made it e.g. Bobby Clampett.

JPinMaryland
07-23-2006, 10:12 PM
The only thing that concerns me a little about Danica is they are trying to turn her into a sex symbol. She's not physically endowed and they just try to put her in short skirts and tight tube tops and it's just icky. It's a damn dangerous sport and I think the sex symbol thing demeans it.


Czaban has a local show here on 980 AM. I dont quite know the national ESPN feeds because this local channel has stopped using any of the national feeds and is just all local talk: Czaban and Pollin in the morning; ex Redskin running back Brian Mitchell at noon and blowhard John Thomson evening drive.

Mitchell was teamed with another guy but he has since been bought by Snyder the redskin owner who is creating a rival station at 720 AM.

JustRalph
07-24-2006, 12:29 AM
SHe's a prodigy of sorts, a very good amateur who hasnt proved she can beat professional women, let alone men.

There's a sports radio guy here in DC; Steve Czaban, who did some research and found that surprisingly Wie has actually played in something like 24 LPGA tour events (maybe it was both mens and womens) and she has finished poorly in nearly all of them. Every time she was in the hunt she closed poorly. He announced this a few weeks ago, about the same time this thread was gettign started.

Not sure what that means for the future but clearly she is not better than the 18, 19 yr. old women out there on tour now.


First of all, I am not Wie Fan, or a ladies golf fan. But, I think you are a little off on this. The sports radio guy may have done some research, but "she finished poorly in nearly all of them" is refutable with a simple google search.

Michelle Wie
Height:6-0 Weight
Born:10/11/89 Birth Place:Honolulu, Hawaii
College:none Turned Pro:2005
Career Earnings:$444,951 Profile Tournament Log
2006 Tournament Data
Events Played:5 Best Finish:- Top 3 Finishes:3 Top 10 Finishes:5 2006 Earnings:$444,951
Women's world rankings
17 July
1 Annika Sorenstam Swe 17.60 pts ave
2 Michelle Wie US 13.09
3 Lorena Ochoa Mex 9.32
4 Karrie Webb Aus 8.52
5 Paula Creamer US 8.48
6 Cristie Kerr US 7.30
7 Juli Inkster US 7.15
8 Yuri Fudoh Jpn 6.50
9 Jeong Jang Kor 6.11
10 Ai Miyazato Jpn 5.91

She has been in the top 5 ,5 times.........top 3, 3 times.........out of 25 tourneys etc........for a 16 year old kid........ I think that it pretty damn good.

sq764
07-24-2006, 09:17 AM
First of all, I am not Wie Fan, or a ladies golf fan. But, I think you are a little off on this. The sports radio guy may have done some research, but "she finished poorly in nearly all of them" is refutable with a simple google search.

Michelle Wie
Height:6-0 Weight
Born:10/11/89 Birth Place:Honolulu, Hawaii
College:none Turned Pro:2005
Career Earnings:$444,951 Profile Tournament Log
2006 Tournament Data
Events Played:5 Best Finish:- Top 3 Finishes:3 Top 10 Finishes:5 2006 Earnings:$444,951
Women's world rankings
17 July
1 Annika Sorenstam Swe 17.60 pts ave
2 Michelle Wie US 13.09
3 Lorena Ochoa Mex 9.32
4 Karrie Webb Aus 8.52
5 Paula Creamer US 8.48
6 Cristie Kerr US 7.30
7 Juli Inkster US 7.15
8 Yuri Fudoh Jpn 6.50
9 Jeong Jang Kor 6.11
10 Ai Miyazato Jpn 5.91

She has been in the top 5 ,5 times.........top 3, 3 times.........out of 25 tourneys etc........for a 16 year old kid........ I think that it pretty damn good.
I guess the problem that most people will talk about is why is this girl playing in men's tours and getting crushed when she cannot even win a women's tour event?

JPinMaryland
07-24-2006, 10:09 AM
First of all, I am not Wie Fan, or a ladies golf fan. But, I think you are a little off on this. The sports radio guy may have done some research, but "she finished poorly in nearly all of them" is refutable with a simple google search....

You misunderstood the meaning, which I did not make clear. By "finish" he meant what Wie did in the last round of each of those tournaments.

Try googling that and see what you get for her last round scores, she seems to nearly always lose ground. At least that's what Czaban found.

JustRalph
07-24-2006, 03:44 PM
You misunderstood the meaning, which I did not make clear. By "finish" he meant what Wie did in the last round of each of those tournaments.

Try googling that and see what you get for her last round scores, she seems to nearly always lose ground. At least that's what Czaban found.

I would agree with that. But, that is why I think she is being placed in these tourneys. To face the pressure. She is either going to learn to deal with it and begin to win, or they are going to learn alot about her and how she needs to approach the tournaments. Trial by fire. Either way the kid has nothing to worry about......she is making 45 mil a year in endorsements. I saw an interview with her and she said that her greatest worry is learning to drive......a car.....what a life...........

melman
07-24-2006, 04:13 PM
Ranked number two in the world and she's "over-hyped" ?? I don't think so :) This young lady is 16 anyone want to make a bet with me that she WILL win a LPGA event?? She has played on the men's tour a total of five times and the sponsers make money when she is playing. I know that Annika has played a couple of times on the mens tour also. Should she not show up there either?? Let um make the cash what's the problem. BTW The Masters every year has a lot of old timers playing that have no shot at winning the tournament so should they be banned also??

sq764
07-24-2006, 07:21 PM
Ranked number two in the world and she's "over-hyped" ?? I don't think so :) This young lady is 16 anyone want to make a bet with me that she WILL win a LPGA event?? She has played on the men's tour a total of five times and the sponsers make money when she is playing. I know that Annika has played a couple of times on the mens tour also. Should she not show up there either?? Let um make the cash what's the problem. BTW The Masters every year has a lot of old timers playing that have no shot at winning the tournament so should they be banned also??
You're missing the point. The old timers have won and are legends.. Annika has won everything under the sun in women's golf, she is one of the best ever.

Wie has won absolutely nothing. What exactly has she accomplished?

melman
07-24-2006, 07:27 PM
So being ranked number two in the world at any age is nothing?? She has done that at the age of 16. Only a matter of time before she wins an LPGA title. Can to make a bet on that??? I like free cash. :jump:

finfan
07-24-2006, 08:08 PM
Johnny Miller quotes on Michelle Wie

"Michelle Wie has more shots than any player on either tour other than Phil or Tiger. I think at some point she’ll be able to hold her own against the men."

He says Michelle Wie, 16, had every right to (unsuccessfully) try to qualify for the U.S. Open — "If you're good enough to get in, I don't care if you're an orangutan." And, he says, she's quite evolved: "Wie (along with Adam Scott) has one of the two best swings in golf. With hot putting, she could win on the men's tour — no doubt."

http://golf.about.com/b/a/257712.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/hiestand-tv/2006-06-13-miller-contract_x.htm

sq764
07-24-2006, 08:17 PM
So being ranked number two in the world at any age is nothing?? She has done that at the age of 16. Only a matter of time before she wins an LPGA title. Can to make a bet on that??? I like free cash. :jump:
Again you are missing the point. Why is she playing in Men's events when she cannot even win a women's event?

sq764
07-24-2006, 08:19 PM
Johnny Miller quotes on Michelle Wie

"Michelle Wie has more shots than any player on either tour other than Phil or Tiger. I think at some point she’ll be able to hold her own against the men."

He says Michelle Wie, 16, had every right to (unsuccessfully) try to qualify for the U.S. Open — "If you're good enough to get in, I don't care if you're an orangutan." And, he says, she's quite evolved: "Wie (along with Adam Scott) has one of the two best swings in golf. With hot putting, she could win on the men's tour — no doubt."

http://golf.about.com/b/a/257712.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/hiestand-tv/2006-06-13-miller-contract_x.htm
Let's see her sniff day 3 ONE time on the PGA tour before we talk abot herwinning LOL

finfan
07-24-2006, 08:44 PM
Michelle Wie (http://fantasygolf.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=GOL&id=673) accomplished something in her ancestral homeland she had failed to do in seven previous tries elsewhere: The American teen made the cut at a men's tournament.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/2006-05-05-wie-sk-telecom-open_x.htm

sq764
07-24-2006, 09:10 PM
Michelle Wie (http://fantasygolf.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=GOL&id=673) accomplished something in her ancestral homeland she had failed to do in seven previous tries elsewhere: The American teen made the cut at a men's tournament.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/2006-05-05-wie-sk-telecom-open_x.htm
What does this have to do with the PGA or LPGA?

sq764
07-24-2006, 09:12 PM
Michelle Wie (http://fantasygolf.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=GOL&id=673) accomplished something in her ancestral homeland she had failed to do in seven previous tries elsewhere: The American teen made the cut at a men's tournament.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/2006-05-05-wie-sk-telecom-open_x.htm
LOL, here are the esteemed money leaders on the Asian Tour:

1. Jeev Milkha SINGH $441,758
2. Charlie WI $329,680
3. Andrew BUCKLE $280,212
4. Simon DYSON $269,265
5. Thongchai JAIDEE $223,902
6. Prom MEESAWAT $209,741
7. Mardan MAMAT $192,682
8. Prayad MARKSAENG $189,012
9. Tadahiro TAKAYAMA $173,460
10. WANG Ter-chang $151,388
11. Scott STRANGE $149,024
12. Thaworn WIRATCHANT $137,979
13. Jarrod LYLE $136,270
14. Terry PILKADARIS $130,621
15. Shiv KAPUR $130,407
16. SUK Jong-ryul $125,000
17. Amandeep JOHL $107,963
18. Chapchai NIRAT $103,091
19. LEE Sung $100,626
20. Bryan SALTUS $97,602

JPinMaryland
07-24-2006, 11:15 PM
So being ranked number two in the world at any age is nothing?? She has done that at the age of 16.

yes and the USA was ranked No. 5 in world soccer.

Only thing funnier than that was Mexico at No. 4. :lol:

freeneasy
07-24-2006, 11:16 PM
toooo to funny :D

ok here, think about it this way. it would be chuvanistic tabo to openly speak of it this way but why wont the men be allowed to compete in the womens tour? and this is where the scary part, the unspoken truth rears its ugly head, oouuuu. because superior will always beat inferior or to put it a little more politely, superior will always beat non superior.
if a superior female steps up to play a superior male it will never be a contest. if a superior male steps down to play a superior female it will always be a no contest. superior males will always rule supreme over superior females. and when you put a non superior like wei up there with oh gee the top what, 15-20-25 money getters on the mens tour, and i mean did you really expect her to compete, c'mon.
take the top 40 female golfers and put them in a 72 with the top 40 males and give it a rooftop purse and guess how many men are going to finish in the top 40 spots and this simply because women cannot withstand the same competitive pressure that the men put on themselfs and each other. women cannot withstand that same kind of pressure. its a whole other ballgame to say the least.
now you start letting the lower level men on the pga qualify into the womens tournaments and your going to see all these women starting to lose their whole lease on life because the men will eventually start taking down all the top money prizes and hardly making it worth it for the women to compete.
sounds like a fact to me

freeneasy
07-24-2006, 11:20 PM
ok, there i said it :faint:

JPinMaryland
07-25-2006, 02:10 AM
Dammit! You cannot say that. Dammit.

Speaking of battle of the sexes, this is something that has been bothering me for about 33 years. Do you remember Billie Jean King vs Bobby RIggs tennis match? I remember watching this and thinking what a farce! Riggs has to hit into the singles court but King was allowed to hit into the doubles court. I thought about this the next day after all the headlines were out, but people at school just thought I was nuts.

ANyhow fast forward about 31 years later and they are talking about this on sports radio and the guest is saying how great it was when King beat Riggs and sure enuf a caller calls in and sez: King got to play in the doubles court while Riggs had to hit into the singles court. THe guy on the radio says "No you full of crap. That didnt happen. It was totally fair, etc."

So now I'm thinking like "what the F is going on here??" I was ten years old but I distinctly remember this and so does this other guy.So I find a book at Borders on the match. YEs! This will finally settle this for all time.

The book says nothing at all about the conditions of the match. It was basically a fluff piece...

So someone, anyone. Does anyone remember this? ANd didnt they have different playing conditions for Riggs and King?

JPinMaryland
07-25-2006, 02:39 AM
Finally a bit of tooling around on Google confirms I am not cracking up. This set of messages is a follow on to a web site having to do w/ pyschological strategies or something. The site mentioned Riggs/king but did not mention the handicaps. The posters pointed this out and the person who started the website had to finally admit that none of the newspapers or tv covering the match seemed to mentiond this although lots of people remember that...

http://www.school-for-champions.com/competition/feedback.cfm?topic=Riggs%20vs%20King%20Tennis%20Ma tch

See this article? This is typically what you get. Sports Illustrated story has not mention of the handicaps. Way to go! Dont mention the key to the whole match:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/womens/features/1998/battle/battle.html

sq764
07-25-2006, 12:00 PM
toooo to funny :D

ok here, think about it this way. it would be chuvanistic tabo to openly speak of it this way but why wont the men be allowed to compete in the womens tour? and this is where the scary part, the unspoken truth rears its ugly head, oouuuu. because superior will always beat inferior or to put it a little more politely, superior will always beat non superior.
if a superior female steps up to play a superior male it will never be a contest. if a superior male steps down to play a superior female it will always be a no contest. superior males will always rule supreme over superior females. and when you put a non superior like wei up there with oh gee the top what, 15-20-25 money getters on the mens tour, and i mean did you really expect her to compete, c'mon.
take the top 40 female golfers and put them in a 72 with the top 40 males and give it a rooftop purse and guess how many men are going to finish in the top 40 spots and this simply because women cannot withstand the same competitive pressure that the men put on themselfs and each other. women cannot withstand that same kind of pressure. its a whole other ballgame to say the least.
now you start letting the lower level men on the pga qualify into the womens tournaments and your going to see all these women starting to lose their whole lease on life because the men will eventually start taking down all the top money prizes and hardly making it worth it for the women to compete.
sounds like a fact to me
Funny, my wife and I had an argument a while ago and her attempt was to prove that there were sports that women could consistently beat men in.

We went through the obscure ones of ping pong, horseshoes, swimming, running.. Still have no come up with any :-)

sq764
07-25-2006, 12:01 PM
....4 rounds of golf, one on one format, Tiger Woods versus Michele Wie. They both hit from the men's tees, no handicaps, nothing.

Any guess on the spread of that 72 hole event? My guess would be in the 15-20 range

JPinMaryland
07-25-2006, 02:56 PM
Now that I think about it some more, it does become a little bit unfair to Wie. She is only 16; she probably will win on the LPGA, someday.

It's just the publicity stunt aspect of it that is sickening. Dont begrudge her the right to make money even obscene amounts of money. Perhaps her dad has the right idea. But if you think about it there are girls 2 or 3 years older than her that are clearly better in events w/ top class competition.

It would not surprise me though if Wie never becomes as dominant as Sorenstam, or Nancy Lopez or Carner or someone like that. To think that she will is projecting too far.

freeneasy
07-25-2006, 03:40 PM
i remember a womens softball team comprised of only 3 players. the pitcher, the catcher, and an outfielder. they may have even been sisters or something.
the reason they only had 3 players was because the pitcher, i forget her name now was unhittable and they basically didnt need more then a catcher. i mean she was lightning, just absolutely incredible to watch. you couldnt touch her. it was like when she let go of the pitch you only saw the ball for ohh i'd say less then a hairs breath of a second and then it was past you and if you happened to get a foul tip off her then you did your job. and she had a mixture of pitches too, one which included some kind of a wicked and i mean nasty ass slider and not only that but she had pinpoint location
real or unreal this girl was the deal, all work and no fear. ya had to love her man, you just had to love her. i mean she was sump'n
tell you the truth, if nolan ryan and her were pitching on the same day i would have gone to see her. now sandy kofax would have been a different story but she sure made for some kind of entertainment and thats for sure.
they did a publicity stunt one time and got reggie, reggie, jackson to square off against her.
what a contest or rather no contest cause thats what it was, signed, sealed, delivered and over in 3 straight fastballs. all located pitches.
reggie was up there like a man with one eye closed and the other one blind. couldnt see her, couldnt touch her, just could'nt even and i mean even come close to her.
the reg took these 3 ridiculos looking wiffs at this big fat softball and was so far over the ball or so far under the ball you'd have thought he had one of those eye cover sleep masks on and on all 3 pitches reggie was so far behind the ball you'd have thought he was swinging a 6 pound bat up there, i mean watching reggie take his swings against this girl was like watching 2 kinds of poetry, one in slow motion and the other one in fast :D i mean thats how bad this girl made the one and only mr. october look.
and when it was over, i think the word 'wow' was about the only word i could figure out to say. wow
i think she went on to coach womems fast pitch at ucla, but boy-o-boy was she sure some kind of a phenom. damn

sq764
07-25-2006, 03:54 PM
i remember a womens softball team comprised of only 3 players. the pitcher, the catcher, and an outfielder. they may have even been sisters or something.
the reason they only had 3 players was because the pitcher, i forget her name now was unhittable and they basically didnt need more then a catcher. i mean she was lightning, just absolutely incredible to watch. you couldnt touch her. it was like when she let go of the pitch you only saw the ball for ohh i'd say less then a hairs breath of a second and then it was past you and if you happened to get a foul tip off her then you did your job. and she had a mixture of pitches too, one which included some kind of a wicked and i mean nasty ass slider and not only that but she had pinpoint location
real or unreal this girl was the deal, all work and no fear. ya had to love her man, you just had to love her. i mean she was sump'n
tell you the truth, if nolan ryan and her were pitching on the same day i would have gone to see her. now sandy kofax would have been a different story but she sure made for some kind of entertainment and thats for sure.
they did a publicity stunt one time and got reggie, reggie, jackson to square off against her.
what a contest or rather no contest cause thats what it was, signed, sealed, delivered and over in 3 straight fastballs. all located pitches.
reggie was up there like a man with one eye closed and the other one blind. couldnt see her, couldnt touch her, just could'nt even and i mean even come close to her.
the reg took these 3 ridiculos looking wiffs at this big fat softball and was so far over the ball or so far under the ball you'd have thought he had one of those eye cover sleep masks on and on all 3 pitches reggie was so far behind the ball you'd have thought he was swinging a 6 pound bat up there, i mean watching reggie take his swings against this girl was like watching 2 kinds of poetry, one in slow motion and the other one in fast :D i mean thats how bad this girl made the one and only mr. october look.
and when it was over, i think the word 'wow' was about the only word i could figure out to say. wow
i think she went on to coach womems fast pitch at ucla, but boy-o-boy was she sure some kind of a phenom. damn
I don't remember them, but I do remember King and his Court..

JPinMaryland
07-25-2006, 05:06 PM
The King and his court used a first baseman, I seem to recall. Otherwise they could just bunt on you.

freeneasy
07-25-2006, 07:32 PM
check 'baseball coaches' for the womens ucla team and you might find her cause i think she went on to coach there or maybe it was usc. but yeah they were an exhibition team but man this gal was awsome. tell you the truth i think i could have hit her and maybe even of hit her pretty good too because in my mind i believe i had developed about the most productive approach to hitting any pitchers best pitch anytime i went up to the plate. never had time or pursued the time it would have taken to really master this approach but i can tell you this and that is that i could'nt and didnt give a fat rats or even a monkey's shiny ass as to who i was facing cause when you pretty much had my approach down you were only going to know one thing and that was that the day hadn't come that if a pitcher was having his best lifetime day that day that you couldnt hit him and 'rack him up' that same day. i'll tell abut it sometime as long as you dont fall asleep on me :D

JustRalph
11-15-2009, 08:58 PM
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/33953851/ns/sports-golf/

Wie finally breaks through with first LPGA win
20-year-old shoots 3-under 69 to edge Creamer by two in Ochoa tourney

PaceAdvantage
11-15-2009, 09:21 PM
Man, between the Yankees and Rivera, and now Michelle Wie winning an LPGA, sq764 (author of this thread) is definitely not having a good November...:lol:

BTW, I have corresponded with him via email and even asked him to come back on...he's taking all of this Yankee stuff in stride...he's mellowing out it seems in his old age...:lol:

Not sure how the Wie thing is gonna hit him...

cj
11-15-2009, 10:36 PM
It was foolish to say she would never win. Her parents probably hurt her a lot, but she is way too talented to not win on the LPGA.

Greyfox
11-16-2009, 12:52 AM
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/33953851/ns/sports-golf/

Wie finally breaks through with first LPGA win
20-year-old shoots 3-under 69 to edge Creamer by two in Ochoa tourney



Yes. And if you watched the play, it was exciting.
Unfortunately, she seems so "plastic," for an honors student.
I saw her in person and the lack of peronality is chilling.
After she won, I wondered if anyone on tour would throw champagne on her.
They finally did.
Obviously a talent and a tip of my hat to her for winning.
She has the potential to bring a lot of excitement to the L.P.G.A. tour, which in my opinion is just as interesting as the P.G.A and Seniors forays.:ThmbUp:

bigmack
11-21-2009, 11:25 PM
BTW, I have corresponded with him via email and even asked him to come back on...he's taking all of this Yankee stuff in stride...he's mellowing out it seems in his old age...:lol:
Don't forget to ask him about being a liar in saying he met with me at a restaurant in LaJolla.

The short game (chipping & putting) of the LPGA is so bad it's like watching a WNBA game and expecting a score over 60.

Greyfox
11-21-2009, 11:58 PM
The short game (chipping & putting) of the LPGA is so bad it's like watching a WNBA game and expecting a score over 60.

Michelle has dropped out.
You're pretty bright on a lot of things.
But the LPGA chipping and putting is a lot better than you would believe.
The 10 top players vs the P.G.A.'s top 10 excluding Tiger, would hold their own.

bigmack
11-22-2009, 12:19 AM
The 10 top players vs the P.G.A.'s top 10 excluding Tiger, would hold their own.
Looks like we got ourselves an opinion standoff.

Cue music
http://www.maximumdonline.com/themes/goodbad.wav

Draw, Varmint.

JustRalph
04-20-2014, 01:00 AM
http://khon2.com/2014/04/19/michelle-wie-wins-the-lpga-lotte-championship/

She has been playing pretty well lately and she won the tournament today.

Been a long time coming

Interesting old thread

tucker6
04-20-2014, 07:15 AM
But the LPGA chipping and putting is a lot better than you would believe.
The 10 top players vs the P.G.A.'s top 10 excluding Tiger, would hold their own.
Wow, I know this quote is from 2009, but it is hard for me to believe anyone outside an insane asylum would say this. Maybe you've changed your mind. The LPGA vs PGA putting & chipping is light years apart. I mean light years. Even Annika on the Golf Channel says they are not close to each other.

JustRalph
06-23-2014, 02:12 AM
http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/11120633/michelle-wie-wins-first-career-major-us-women-open

It took 7 years........but she is starting to live up to her promise

U.S. Open Champion Michelle Wie

Greyfox
06-23-2014, 08:14 AM
Wow, I know this quote is from 2009, but it is hard for me to believe anyone outside an insane asylum would say this. Maybe you've changed your mind. The LPGA vs PGA putting & chipping is light years apart. I mean light years. Even Annika on the Golf Channel says they are not close to each other.

Martin Kaymer was in a league of his own when he won the U.S. Open Mens.

Otherwise, only two other players scored under par for the tournament held at Pinehurst last week.

This week Michelle won the Womens U.S. Open.
She shot lower than all the men except for Kaymer, albeit the distance of the course is shorter for the ladies.

Your comment about the LPGA vs the PGA putting and chipping leads me to seriously wonder whether or not you watched the women play this weekend and lacks credibility.

In the meanwhile, I noticed Michelle Wie has made a 180 degree change in the frostiness of her personality.
This weekend she displayed a warmth that I hadn't seen before (I've seen her in person). She was definitely a three dimensional personality this weekend. Her facing down adversity on 16, 17, and 18 was very commendable.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 09:21 AM
Martin Kaymer was in a league of his own when he won the U.S. Open Mens.

Otherwise, only two other players scored under par for the tournament held at Pinehurst last week.

This week Michelle won the Womens U.S. Open.
She shot lower than all the men except for Kaymer, albeit the distance of the course is shorter for the ladies.

Your comment about the LPGA vs the PGA putting and chipping leads me to seriously wonder whether or not you watched the women play this weekend and lacks credibility.

In the meanwhile, I noticed Michelle Wie has made a 180 degree change in the frostiness of her personality.
This weekend she displayed a warmth that I hadn't seen before (I've seen her in person). She was definitely a three dimensional personality this weekend. Her facing down adversity on 16, 17, and 18 was very commendable.
At one time, I thought she was a borderline ditz. But, she's no longer in school, obviously older and more mature.

Yes, the course was shorter by something like 1,000 yards -- something I read leading up to the LPGA event but can not find ATM.

In any event, unless any one reading this has a 5 handicap or better, I'd say there is plenty room to learn a few things from the women. I know I do.

Women's putting not in the same league as the men's? I'm not so sure about that. If the LPGA could afford Shotlink, we might be able to have an apples to apples comparison. Anyways, I'll take a pink panther 75 footer any day.

I would say the best thing to learn from watching both the men and women, but, especially the women, is to swing within yourself -- nothing violent. Nothing good comes from trying to emulate the PGA player's swing. In my own personal experience watching how well the LPGA players can poke the ball and still get good distances is very helpful, so, I slow down, be more deliberate in my back swing and channel my inner Payne Stewart and Ernie Els.

wiffleball whizz
06-23-2014, 09:23 AM
At one time, I thought she was a borderline ditz. But, she's no longer in school, obviously older and more mature.

Yes, the course was shorter by something like 1,000 yards -- something I read leading up to the LPGA event but can not find ATM.

In any event, unless any one reading this has a 5 handicap or better, I'd say there is plenty room to learn a few things from the women. I know I do.

Women's putting not in the same league as the men's? I'm not so sure about that. If the LPGA could afford Shotlink, we might be able to have an apples to apples comparison. Anyways, I'll take a pink panther 75 footer any day.

I would say the best thing to learn from watching both the men and women, but, especially the women, is to swing within yourself -- nothing violent. Nothing good comes from trying to emulate the PGA player's swing. In my own personal experience watching how well the LPGA players can poke the ball and still get good distances is very helpful, so, I slow down, be more deliberate in my back swing and channel my inner Payne Stewart and Ernie Els.

Very good points :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Greyfox
06-23-2014, 09:29 AM
Very good points :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

I agree. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 09:30 AM
Very good points :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:
Thanks.

The beautiful games, soccer/futbol, golf and baseball, are all played with a round ball and "stick" -- bat, club or leg. If that combination of stick and ball did not exist, what would we do for fun? (OK, other than the obvious.)

tucker6
06-23-2014, 09:33 AM
congrats to Wie. She earned it. However, comparing the two Opens and thus men vs women is not going to work. Just on the greens alone the stimpmeter ratings were much lower this past weekend. Then you have the fact that women generally are hitting shorter clubs into the greens. Obviously a pro woman can beat an above average male golfer, but woman pros to a person all agree that the pro men putt and chip better than they do. If you can provide one quote otherwise I'd be happy to apologize to all the woman pros.

Here an excellent article written in 2010 on male vs female putting. Amazingly, they start by discussing Wie's historical issues. Anyway, it's a very good read.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/short-game/putting/2010-10/putting-matthew-rudy

wiffleball whizz
06-23-2014, 09:45 AM
Thanks.

The beautiful games, soccer/futbol, golf and baseball, are all played with a round ball and "stick" -- bat, club or leg. If that combination of stick and ball did not exist, what would we do for fun? (OK, other than the obvious.)

I'm going out now and playing....my boss got me for 279 on Saturday god only knows what he will get me for today

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 09:48 AM
congrats to Wie. She earned it. However, comparing the two Opens and thus men vs women is not going to work. Just on the greens alone the stimpmeter ratings were much lower this past weekend. Then you have the fact that women generally are hitting shorter clubs into the greens. Obviously a pro woman can beat an above average male golfer, but woman pros to a person all agree that the pro men putt and chip better than they do. If you can provide one quote otherwise I'd be happy to apologize to all the woman pros.

Here an excellent article written in 2010 on male vs female putting. Amazingly, they start by discussing Wie's historical issues. Anyway, it's a very good read.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/short-game/putting/2010-10/putting-matthew-rudy
Interesting. Thanks for posting the link.

I just fired off a short note to an expert asking for his opinion. If and when I get some feedback, I'll post again.

Greyfox
06-23-2014, 10:13 AM
Interesting article but not the definitive answer on this matter.

"The best male putters take about half a stroke less per round on the greens than their female counterparts."

Judy Rankin offered an opinion on this over the weekend.
She said words to the effect, that if men have less putts per round it is due to the flight of the ball as it approaches the green,---- not the putting.
Men have more strength to flight the ball higher and get less roll.
Womens approach shots come in lower and roll farther.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 10:21 AM
I had a couple of quick email exchanges with Mark Broadie, the inventor of the strokes gained putting stat and author of "Every Shot Counts."

I can not quote verbatim since I was asked not to, however, I can say Mark disagreed with the conclusion of the article.

tucker6
06-23-2014, 10:47 AM
statistics can and do lie at times depending on how they are interpreted, but when the women golfers themselves agree with the statistics, then I hold the numbers in higher regard. We'll just agree to disagree.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 10:54 AM
statistics can and do lie at times depending on how they are interpreted, but when the women golfers themselves agree with the statistics, then I hold the numbers in higher regard. We'll just agree to disagree.
NP.

BTW, I would recommend the book, and, the way the data is analyzed and presented, there is not any wiggle room -- it is black and white.

Occasionally, there has been analysis posted using the ESC approach to comparing golfers and rounds. If there is a chance to get an apples to apples analysis of the men v. women, it will come from the events at Pinehurst.

tucker6
06-23-2014, 11:02 AM
NP.

BTW, I would recommend the book, and, the way the data is analyzed and presented, there is not any wiggle room -- it is black and white.

Occasionally, there has been analysis posted using the ESC approach to comparing golfers and rounds. If there is a chance to get an apples to apples analysis of the men v. women, it will come from the events at Pinehurst.
as you can see from the article I linked and Judy Rankin's quote, there are a ton of variables that go into putts per round, etc. Although honestly I don't see Judy's point about landing softness. Distance to the hole is distance to the hole no matter how it got there, but maybe I misread what she said. I've been to US Opens for PGA, Seniors, and LPGA, and was astounded at how poorly the women putted overall. To me, the difference was in how far they left themselves on the second putt. Top tier men usually get the ball inside a 2 foot circle on the first long distance putt. Top tier women were in the 3-4 foot range IMO. Granted that doesn't sound like much, but may be why their stats are a little higher. Good convo.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 11:09 AM
as you can see from the article I linked and Judy Rankin's quote, there are a ton of variables that go into putts per round, etc. Although honestly I don't see Judy's point about landing softness. Distance to the hole is distance to the hole no matter how it got there, but maybe I misread what she said. I've been to US Opens for PGA, Seniors, and LPGA, and was astounded at how poorly the women putted overall. To me, the difference was in how far they left themselves on the second putt. Top tier men usually get the ball inside a 2 foot circle on the first long distance putt. Top tier women were in the 3-4 foot range IMO. Granted that doesn't sound like much, but may be why their stats are a little higher. Good convo.
Yes, distance to the hole can not be argued.

Perhaps it's too fine a point, but I wonder: are the women apparently not as good putting because of differences in teachers and coaches, i.e. they can't afford the best and what the next tier down teaches is not as good?

tucker6
06-23-2014, 11:22 AM
Yes, distance to the hole can not be argued.

Perhaps it's too fine a point, but I wonder: are the women apparently not as good putting because of differences in teachers and coaches, i.e. they can't afford the best and what the next tier down teaches is not as good?
that's a tough question. It could be a combo of a woman's body build and stressing wood/iron practice. I've heard a few women over the years lament the fact that they don't put in the time on the greens. Wie had an extremely unorthodox putting stroke yesterday. That position won't survive the first backache I fear.

On the other hand, I don't have the stats, but it appears to me that women get the ball into the fairway and onto the greens in regulation more often than men.

AndyC
06-23-2014, 11:25 AM
I had a couple of quick email exchanges with Mark Broadie, the inventor of the strokes gained putting stat and author of "Every Shot Counts."

I can not quote verbatim since I was asked not to, however, I can say Mark disagreed with the conclusion of the article.

He disagrees because he has the stats or disagrees because that is his opinion?

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 11:29 AM
On the other hand, I don't have the stats, but it appears to me that women get the ball into the fairway and onto the greens in regulation more often than men.
The gist of the reply I got from Mark was about exactly that part of the game.

I do have permission to post this: "...difference in approach shot accuracy (from the same distance) matters a lot more than the difference in putting."

Whether or not the women are better than the men, remains to be determined. Again, with my enthusiasm for ESC analysis showing, strokes gained for the approach shot and other short game strokes would reveal all.

AndyC
06-23-2014, 11:32 AM
Interesting article but not the definitive answer on this matter.

"The best male putters take about half a stroke less per round on the greens than their female counterparts."

Judy Rankin offered an opinion on this over the weekend.
She said words to the effect, that if men have less putts per round it is due to the flight of the ball as it approaches the green,---- not the putting.
Men have more strength to flight the ball higher and get less roll.
Womens approach shots come in lower and roll farther.

Men have a big advantage over women when strength comes into play around the green. Hitting pitches to greens out of deep rough or having the ability to use spin to control shots are the biggest differences.

AndyC
06-23-2014, 11:37 AM
The gist of the reply I got from Mark was about exactly that part of the game.

I do have permission to post this: "...difference in approach shot accuracy (from the same distance) matters a lot more than the difference in putting."

Whether or not the women are better than the men, remains to be determined. Again, with my enthusiasm for ESC analysis showing, strokes gained for the approach shot and other short game strokes would reveal all.

Using Mark's measurements you would have to take what the women did versus the PGA stats. Strokes gained or lost against using only the women's stats would have no basis for comparison.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 11:40 AM
He disagrees because he has the stats or disagrees because that is his opinion?
He has stats but not for the women b/c the LPGA can not afford shot link.

What he has done and is discussed in the book is twofold: comparing professional stats using the traditional GIR, total putts, etc., to his method. His method basically makes the analysis using the same metric for all aspects of the game -- the strokes gained or lost for whatever category you are looking at. And, then he compares the PGA stats to those of amateurs then shows where the amateurs fall short.

So, his comment is based upon what he does know when comparing male pros to male amateurs and then making the educated observation about the LPGA players.

tucker6
06-23-2014, 11:40 AM
The gist of the reply I got from Mark was about exactly that part of the game.

I do have permission to post this: "...difference in approach shot accuracy (from the same distance) matters a lot more than the difference in putting."

Whether or not the women are better than the men, remains to be determined. Again, with my enthusiasm for ESC analysis showing, strokes gained for the approach shot and other short game strokes would reveal all.
sounds like we agree more than we disagree then.

tucker6
06-23-2014, 11:48 AM
He has stats but not for the women b/c the LPGA can not afford shot link.

What he has done and is discussed in the book is twofold: comparing professional stats using the traditional GIR, total putts, etc., to his method. His method basically makes the analysis using the same metric for all aspects of the game -- the strokes gained or lost for whatever category you are looking at. And, then he compares the PGA stats to those of amateurs then shows where the amateurs fall short.

So, his comment is based upon what he does know when comparing male pros to male amateurs and then making the educated observation about the LPGA players.
what does Shot Link cost if you can say? I ask because they just paid Wie $760k for the win yesterday. I know that money doesn't belong to the LPGA, but it shows how much money is in the game. A couple hundred grand to foster more interest in the quality of the women's game might be worth it. Unless of course they are concerned about the numbers themselves.

Greyfox
06-23-2014, 11:50 AM
The U.S.G.A. and the L.P.G.A. are of course different entities.
The announcers for the past two weekends had access to Shotlink in telling viewers the length of putts in both tournaments.

AndyC
06-23-2014, 11:52 AM
He has stats but not for the women b/c the LPGA can not afford shot link.

What he has done and is discussed in the book is twofold: comparing professional stats using the traditional GIR, total putts, etc., to his method. His method basically makes the analysis using the same metric for all aspects of the game -- the strokes gained or lost for whatever category you are looking at. And, then he compares the PGA stats to those of amateurs then shows where the amateurs fall short.

So, his comment is based upon what he does know when comparing male pros to male amateurs and then making the educated observation about the LPGA players.

I am very familiar with Broadie's work. What makes for a difficult comparison is the fact that men play on greens that are week in and week out much faster than what the women play on. They also play to generally much tougher pin placements. The spin generated by most of the women players just wouldn't be adequate to play under the conditions required of the men.

tucker6
06-23-2014, 11:58 AM
The U.S.G.A. and the L.P.G.A. are of course different entities.
The announcers for the past two weekends had access to Shotlink in telling viewers the length of putts in both tournaments.
So the PGA and the USGA can afford it, but the LPGA cannot?? I don't buy that story as the reason.

tucker6
06-23-2014, 12:01 PM
I am very familiar with Broadie's work. What makes for a difficult comparison is the fact that men play on greens that are week in and week out much faster than what the women play on. They also play to generally much tougher pin placements. The spin generated by most of the women players just wouldn't be adequate to play under the conditions required of the men.
I remember when Annika teed it up at Colonial against the men. She was at the top of her game, and came across as an average male player. I know we can always say that she was under immense pressure, etc, but if you watched her, she didn't have enough skill in every facet of her game to compete on the PGA tour week in and week out.

AndyC
06-23-2014, 12:10 PM
I remember when Annika teed it up at Colonial against the men. She was at the top of her game, and came across as an average male player. I know we can always say that she was under immense pressure, etc, but if you watched her, she didn't have enough skill in every facet of her game to compete on the PGA tour week in and week out.


Colonial also required shots that fit her strengths and didn't require her to bomb drives off the tee. I would say that many of the PGA players would kill to have Annika's precision off of the tee.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 12:32 PM
sounds like we agree more than we disagree then.
I think so and I concede the point about comparing the men to the women.

Another part of the email correspondence mentioned a 40 yard difference between the men's and women's tees at Pinehurst, but, it was a part of the response I did not completely understand. I think -- my words, opinion -- what was meant was other than the 40 yard difference between the tees, all other shots and statistics between the men and women at Pinehurst could be compared.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 12:34 PM
what does Shot Link cost if you can say? I ask because they just paid Wie $760k for the win yesterday. I know that money doesn't belong to the LPGA, but it shows how much money is in the game. A couple hundred grand to foster more interest in the quality of the women's game might be worth it. Unless of course they are concerned about the numbers themselves.
Somewhere I picked up on a cost of $400K per event. And, I believe that goes back a few years, so, it is likely much more now.

Yes, bigger purses does foster more interest. Likely the reason behind the race the the CME at the end of the LPGA season.

tucker6
06-23-2014, 12:36 PM
Somewhere I picked up on a cost of $400K per event. And, I believe that goes back a few years, so, it is likely much more now.

Yes, bigger purses does foster more interest. Likely the reason behind the race the the CME at the end of the LPGA season.
per event?? Yowza.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 12:57 PM
per event?? Yowza.
OK, here's a partial confirmation -- $500K per event: http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/1/15/when-is-shotlink-coming-to-the-majors.html

Greyfox
06-23-2014, 01:09 PM
OK, here's a partial confirmation -- $500K per event: http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/1/15/when-is-shotlink-coming-to-the-majors.html

Wow. It's amazing how it costs that much but it probably requires quite a bit of technology.

On a similar vein, I golfed with a guy a couple of weeks ago who was wearing a wristwatch that told him the distance yardage in the fairway from every pin.
He said that it works on most golf courses in North America.
The price? $250 for his watch and he said that he could have bought a more elaborate one for more.

cj
06-23-2014, 01:09 PM
Wow. It's amazing how it costs that much but it probably requires quite a bit of technology.

On a similar vein, I golfed with a guy a couple of weeks ago who was wearing a wristwatch that told him the distance yardage in the fairway from every pin.
He said that it works on most golf courses in North America.
The price? $250 for his watch and he said that he could have bought a more elaborate one for more.

I have a phone app that cost like $1.99, works perfectly at the courses I've played.

Greyfox
06-23-2014, 01:10 PM
I have a phone app that cost like $1.99, works perfectly at the courses I've played.

Interesting stuff. I haven't heard of that before.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 01:34 PM
I'm a nerd. I have both a GPS device and a laser range finder.

The Garmin G6 Approach will give good info but only if you can adjust the placement of the pin on the representation of the green. I use it mostly for keeping score and for lay up arcs. Playing a course for the first couple of times, I'll use it to help get me around if there's not any local knowledge close at hand.

But for all other times, it's the laser giving me line of sight distances to the flag. And when I'm playing with a group of friends, if they want a distance, they'll ask and I only will use the laser, never the GPS.

AndyC
06-23-2014, 02:00 PM
I'm a nerd. I have both a GPS device and a laser range finder.

The Garmin G6 Approach will give good info but only if you can adjust the placement of the pin on the representation of the green. I use it mostly for keeping score and for lay up arcs. Playing a course for the first couple of times, I'll use it to help get me around if there's not any local knowledge close at hand.

But for all other times, it's the laser giving me line of sight distances to the flag. And when I'm playing with a group of friends, if they want a distance, they'll ask and I only will use the laser, never the GPS.

Just don't tell me you are one of those players who will stand on the 150 marker on their home course and laser a pin sitting in the middle of the green and then confirm it with the GPS in the cart. Of course the entire ritual is followed up with a solid shot that ends up a club and a half short.

Bettowin
06-23-2014, 03:14 PM
Just don't tell me you are one of those players who will stand on the 150 marker on their home course and laser a pin sitting in the middle of the green and then confirm it with the GPS in the cart. Of course the entire ritual is followed up with a solid shot that ends up a club and a half short.

LOL Very true. I would use a rangefinder if I was accurate enough to hit it within 5 or 6 yards every shot.

tucker6
06-23-2014, 03:33 PM
LOL Very true. I would use a rangefinder if I was accurate enough to hit it within 5 or 6 yards every shot.
Even more LOL was last year at the Masters on the shot that Tiger got his two stroke penalty. He's standing there matter-of-factly after the fact describing how he elected to go back two yards from his previous position and come in slightly lower in trajectory. In that way, he'd one hop two yards in front of the pin and spin the ball dead next to the hole from like 90-100 yards out. I'm like WTF. That is so far beyond my ability to perform, yet he did exactly that. I guess when you play golf 10 hours a day, it becomes a job and you get better at it.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 09:44 PM
Just don't tell me you are one of those players who will stand on the 150 marker on their home course and laser a pin sitting in the middle of the green and then confirm it with the GPS in the cart. Of course the entire ritual is followed up with a solid shot that ends up a club and a half short.
No, I'm not one of those. Ugg.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 09:46 PM
LOL Very true. I would use a rangefinder if I was accurate enough to hit it within 5 or 6 yards every shot.
On a good day, with the wedges and 9I, ya, I'm right there.

AndyC
06-23-2014, 10:58 PM
On a good day, with the wedges and 9I, ya, I'm right there.


Where do you play in San Diego? I am in El Cajon right near Sycuan and Steele Canyon.

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 11:17 PM
Where do you play in San Diego? I am in El Cajon right near Sycuan and Steele Canyon.
Yes.

I consider Tecolote Canyon my home track. I've play a number of both executive and par 72 courses up and down the county. On my to play list is Salt Creek and Bonita(?). The one course that always kicks my butt is Castle Creek.

When I play east county most of the time I'll play Willowbrook or Carlton Oaks. I've been to Mt. Woodson a handful of times. I guess Mission Trails would be considered east county too.

Greyfox
06-23-2014, 11:26 PM
On a good day, with the wedges and 9I, ya, I'm right there.

So am I.
But my last good day might have been in 1990. Maybe...I don't remember. :lol:

DJofSD
06-23-2014, 11:55 PM
Powered through this mornings episode of Morning Drive.

Annika said the Stimp was the same for both the men's and the women's event.

And, it appears I'm not the only one that would like to see Torrey be the next venue for both the men's and women's open.

Greyfox
06-24-2014, 12:33 AM
Powered through this mornings episode of Morning Drive.

Annika said the Stimp was the same for both the men's and the women's event.

And, it appears I'm not the only one that would like to see Torrey be the next venue for both the men's and women's open.

I'll second that motion. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

AndyC
06-24-2014, 11:13 AM
And, it appears I'm not the only one that would like to see Torrey be the next venue for both the men's and women's open.

It makes sense for the USGA from a cost standpoint but probably wouldn't make much sense for San Diego and the golf course. The women's open would not have enough of an economic impact to shut down the courses for another week. The additional wear and tear on the courses, especially the north course that will be used for parking, may mean increased revenue losses due to no play during period required for repairs.

DJofSD
06-24-2014, 11:19 AM
It makes sense for the USGA from a cost standpoint but probably wouldn't make much sense for San Diego and the golf course. The women's open would not have enough of an economic impact to shut down the courses for another week. The additional wear and tear on the courses, especially the north course that will be used for parking, may mean increased revenue losses due to no play during period required for repairs.
North course used for parking?

Sorry, you lost me there.

While revenue loss is a valid consideration, I don't think it would impact the city Parks and Recreation, Golf division that much. Sure, there'll be some disgruntled city residents which will object but I'd be willing to bet most would not mind 1 more week of the course not being available. Remember, this is, at least for the moment, at one time event.

AndyC
06-24-2014, 11:23 AM
Yes.

I consider Tecolote Canyon my home track. I've play a number of both executive and par 72 courses up and down the county. On my to play list is Salt Creek and Bonita(?). The one course that always kicks my butt is Castle Creek.

When I play east county most of the time I'll play Willowbrook or Carlton Oaks. I've been to Mt. Woodson a handful of times. I guess Mission Trails would be considered east county too.

I have played 100s of rounds at Tecolote. I believe it is the only executive course ever designed by Robert Trent Jones.

If Carlton Oaks could ever get their greens and fairways in good shape it would be a premiere course.

Willowbrook is a nice little 9 hole layout with pretty good greens. A great course to walk.

Salt Creek (I call it Shit Creek) seems to be in a constant state of disrepair. Bonita, on the other hand, has improved their maintenance considerably and is probably worth playing.

A course definitely worth playing is San Vicente in Ramona.

AndyC
06-24-2014, 11:29 AM
North course used for parking?

Sorry, you lost me there.

While revenue loss is a valid consideration, I don't think it would impact the city Parks and Recreation, Golf division that much. Sure, there'll be some disgruntled city residents which will object but I'd be willing to bet most would not mind 1 more week of the course not being available. Remember, this is, at least for the moment, at one time event.

If you recall the 2008 Open, the entire north course was turned into a parking lot, a driving range and a site for souvenirs. Another week of the same could shut down the course for several weeks after the tournaments not just the week of the tournament.

I really don't see any upside for San Diego in trying to duplicate the Pinehurst model.

AndyC
06-24-2014, 11:35 AM
Powered through this mornings episode of Morning Drive.

Annika said the Stimp was the same for both the men's and the women's event.



7. While the USGA has said it will keep the speed of Pinehurst's devilish greens as fast as they were last week -- mid to upper 12s on the Stimpmeter -- officials have decided to make the greens a bit softer for the women to help them be more receptive to approach shots.

So not exactly comparable. But I think Wie going all 72 holes without a 3 putt was sensational. I don't believe any of the men accomplished that.

DJofSD
06-24-2014, 11:36 AM
I have played 100s of rounds at Tecolote. I believe it is the only executive course ever designed by Robert Trent Jones.

If Carlton Oaks could ever get their greens and fairways in good shape it would be a premiere course.

Willowbrook is a nice little 9 hole layout with pretty good greens. A great course to walk.

Salt Creek (I call it Shit Creek) seems to be in a constant state of disrepair. Bonita, on the other hand, has improved their maintenance considerably and is probably worth playing.

A course definitely worth playing is San Vicente in Ramona.
TCGC is a Sam Snead design course. Unfortunately, the only indication of that is the name of the street you turn onto to get to it.

I've heard about San Vicente but you are literally the first person that has mentioned it while talking about courses. Maybe it's one of those "hidden jewels" the locals are keeping to themselves <bg>?

Some of the reasons I've "promoted" Willowbrook is (1) it is 9 holes and you can opt to only play 9, (2) it is a par 36 for the nine which means when you play 18, it's a par 72 track, (3) there are multiple teeing areas for each hole (some have 4 others 2) which means if you do play 18 you have a bit of a different tee shot each time, and (4) it is in the USGA's database for handicap purposes. And, yes, it's pretty flat so it does make it a fairly easy course to walk. Now, if they could only do something about that late afternoon sun when playing 5.

DJofSD
06-24-2014, 11:43 AM
If you recall the 2008 Open, the entire north course was turned into a parking lot, a driving range and a site for souvenirs. Another week of the same could shut down the course for several weeks after the tournaments not just the week of the tournament.

I really don't see any upside for San Diego in trying to duplicate the Pinehurst model.
I'm not sure that would be repeated. But, it is a good point and one I had forgotten.

I'm going to ask about that the next time I talk with some of the people whom are part of the inside circles of San Diego muni-golf, in general, and Torrey Pines specifically.

AndyC
06-24-2014, 12:18 PM
TCGC is a Sam Snead design course. Unfortunately, the only indication of that is the name of the street you turn onto to get to it.

Tecolote is definitely a RTJones Sr design. It is my understanding that Snead was brought in for name recognition only but he is listed as co-designer with Jones.

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/sam-snead-designer

rastajenk
06-24-2014, 12:40 PM
Just don't tell me you are one of those players who will stand on the 150 marker on their home course and laser a pin sitting in the middle of the green and then confirm it with the GPS in the cart. Of course the entire ritual is followed up with a solid shot that ends up a club and a half short.A friend of mine will walk off the distance from a 150 or 200 marker just to make sure that it's a 180, or a 185, or a 190 yard shot. Never mind the fact that he doesn't have a 180 yard shot in his bag, unless he gets extremely lucky. He does have a lot of fat 120 yard shots in his bag, which he uses after nearly every distance calculation. :D

DJofSD
06-24-2014, 01:15 PM
Tecolote is definitely a RTJones Sr design. It is my understanding that Snead was brought in for name recognition only but he is listed as co-designer with Jones.

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/sam-snead-designer
OK, I learned a bit more. Thanks.

There are a couple of guys there that know the history and have been playing there for a long, long time.

I'll ask them about the particulars of the course design.

I'm curious both from a historical perspective and learning a bit more about the original design. My understanding is some bunkers had been moved or removed. And, some of the teeing areas also being changed.

DJofSD
06-25-2014, 10:55 AM
Tecolote is definitely a RTJones Sr design. It is my understanding that Snead was brought in for name recognition only but he is listed as co-designer with Jones.

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/sam-snead-designer
Got confirmation from two of my peeps yesterday, and, as one shared with me, he was under the same wrong impression for a long time.

Now, I know.

DJofSD
06-25-2014, 11:00 AM
A course definitely worth playing is San Vicente in Ramona.
Asked a group about the course during a friendly putting competition. One guy in particular had a very good, positive response. He's lived in San Diego a long time and has played many, many courses, including SV many times. He gave me a very favorable impression along with a recommendation that my son and I play it.

It's now on my list.

Valuist
06-29-2014, 02:46 PM
A blast from the past. Hadn't seen a post from Sq in years.

Marshall Bennett
06-29-2014, 03:09 PM
After winning the Open last week, Wie now leads another tournament this week going into the final round. One of the announcers last week predicted that after finally winning a major, she would be hard to stop.
Golf Channel @ 4PM CST.