Barbaro news not good....

[PaceAdvantage]

Barbaro Has Developed 'Potentially Serious' Complications (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34335)
Barbaro has developed "potentially serious" complications to his injured right hind leg and underwent surgery to replace hardware and treat a new infection. More... (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34335)

[kingfin66]

I thought I heard that the infection he developed was in his non-injured leg???

[bigmack]

Hang tough B - You always did on the track
And some of us hope you will now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmgf-ocQFbc&search=barbaro

[WJ47]

I thought I heard that the infection he developed was in his non-injured leg???

I got the impression from the article that both of his hind legs had some sort of infection. On Tim Woolley's racing website, he said that the Jacksons had planned to leave on a trip to Africa this week, but cancelled.

He also posted an update today at 7am that Barbaro had a good night's sleep and appeared a little better today.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post websites, but trainer Tim Woolley gives alot of updates on Barbaro.

http://www.timwoolleyracing.com/news/2006/07/barbaro_updates_2.php

[PaceAdvantage]

Holy Cow!

Barbaro's Cast Replaced for Sixth Time (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34344)
After evaluating Barbaro Monday morning, Dr. Dean Richardson, chief of surgery at the New Bolton Center, replaced the cast on the colt's injured hind leg for a sixth time. More... (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34344)

Barbaro's Owners Hopeful Setbacks Are Minor (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34343)
Barbaro's road to recovery has been slowed by recent infections, but his owners remain hopeful those are only minor setbacks for the winner of the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (gr. I). More... (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34343)

[Sailwolf]

Holy Cow!


Not that it should matter, but how much is this costing the owners??

[bigmack]

http://sports.yahoo.com/rah/news?slug=ap-barbaro&prov=ap&type=lgns

[CryingForTheHorses]

Im very sorry to be the guy who says this. I think the time has come to say goodbye to Barbaro. Why put him thu this.The infection is getting worse and his other hind foot is nw absessing.Changing the hardware on his broken bones and scraping away the infection. I say let him die with dignity.This guy will never pull thu this. I say put him to sleep and relieve him of his pain.

[WJ47]

I believe that the situation is looking more grim. Especially reading between the lines as to the latest news. It makes me think that his situation is far more serious than they are saying. But I believe in miracles and maybe there will be one. If anyone horse deserves to live and enjoy life, its Barbaro. He's done so well and fought so hard. It just makes me very sad to think that he may not pull through after all he's been through.

But I've been hearing reports that he's "comfortable" and that is good if he is. If he were in pain and suffering, that wouldn't be right to keep him alive.

But having lived on a horse farm for alot of years, I've seen horses first hand with severely broken legs. And to tell you the truth, they didn't seem to be in severe pain, although I'm sure they probably were. One mare that had a hind leg shattered in a paddock accident (kicked by another mare) stood and waited for the vet without any indication that she was in agony. Her leg was hanging (bone through the skin), and I fed her several carrots while the vet prepared to give the injection to put her down. It was sort of surreal, she kept trying to get more carrots, like she had no idea that something terrible was wrong.

I'm still hoping and praying that Barbaro makes it, but the reports do make me think that his chances are getting slimmer.

[bigmack]

The camp is quiet today and Prado took off his mounts due to a cold.

[QuarterCrack]

I've seen some stuff on some other boards saying that Barbaro may be euthanized.
I know there is a press conference tomorrow - I wonder if that's what it will be about.

[PaceAdvantage]

I've seen some stuff on some other boards saying that Barbaro may be euthanized.
I know there is a press conference tomorrow - I wonder if that's what it will be about.

According to the owner Wednesday night, the press conference isn't about euthanization....it's an official update on what has gone on the past week....

[PaceAdvantage]

Im very sorry to be the guy who says this. I think the time has come to say goodbye to Barbaro. Why put him thu this.The infection is getting worse and his other hind foot is nw absessing.Changing the hardware on his broken bones and scraping away the infection. I say let him die with dignity.This guy will never pull thu this. I say put him to sleep and relieve him of his pain.

Put him through what? Half the time he's tanked up on tranqs and painkillers. He ain't feeling any pain, so why not try and save his life for a change, instead of taking the easy way out. Besides, any insight or advances made can be applied to others in similar situations, and maybe we can save a couple instead of putting them down on the track.

Yeah, yeah, I know....what good is a half-crippled horse, right? That's all Barbaro will be if he pulls through. But it's the principle of the thing, damn it!

For all those who say, "WHAT'S THE POINT," I direct you to the story of Nureyev, who went through a lot more hell and was in much worse spirits than Barbaro, but ultimately pulled through:

"Probably eight or 10 times I think he tried to give up on us," recalled Dr. Howard. "He would get so fatigued and tired he'd slump down in the sling and get that cast all the way underneath him. Then he tried a couple of times to get it under him to stand. A couple of times it was like he said, 'to heck with it,' and wouldn't even try to get up.


"The only way we could get him going was to slap him around his head to make him mad. Then when he got mad enough, he'd lay his ears back and come at you. Then he'd get to his feet. I guess we did that a dozen times, anyway, the first few days. He sure had that give-up look about him."

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=6788

[WJ47]

Put him through what? Half the time he's tanked up on tranqs and painkillers. He ain't feeling any pain, so why not try and save his life for a change, instead of taking the easy way out. Besides, any insight or advances made can be applied to others in similar situations, and maybe we can save a couple instead of putting them down on the track.

Yeah, yeah, I know....what good is a half-crippled horse, right? That's all Barbaro will be if he pulls through. But it's the principle of the thing, damn it!

For all those who say, "WHAT'S THE POINT," I direct you to the story of Nureyev, who went through a lot more hell and was in much worse spirits than Barbaro, but ultimately pulled through:



http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=6788

I've read the Nureyev story on Bloodhorse and I agree that it sounds like Barbaro has a great attitude compareds to Nureyev. I don't think they will put Barbaro down unless they are 100% sure that he won't make it and will suffer. I don't think the Jacksons paid all this money to attempt to save his life because of his value as a stud, I think they did it because they love him.

I'm sure he's on some pretty good painkillers (probably Horsie Vicodin!) so hopefully they aren't going to give up yet. My concern would be if Barbaro was in pain that couldn't be relieved by painkillers. But if he's not in pain, they probably would try everything, no matter how slim the chance, to save him.

I worry that if they end up having to euthanize Barbaro, that they won't try to save any more horses who are injured on the track.

There are rumors and posts flying around all the boards tonight, hopefully tomorrow will bring good news.

[classhandicapper]

Wow, that Nureyev story was amazing.

[Stevie Belmont]

Just heard that Barbaro has as a bad a case of Laminitis a horse can get. Very sad stuff.

[bigmack]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34393

[PaceAdvantage]

totally horrible news.......:( :mad: :(

[Tom]

This is very bad.

[ponyplayerdotca]

1) Short of having BARBARO in severe pain, the doctors should do everything possible to treat him and save his life.

2) Conversely, if all these procedures are contributing to his discomfort with very little chance for survival, perhaps euthanization isn't a terrible option for the sake of the horse.

3) Barbaro is also a medical case study in progress for all the equine vets working on him and observing his recovery. Any practical information the doctors compile from his whole ordeal will be applied to future cases involving severe breakdowns.

4) As far as saving Barbaro solely for "stud duty" as some rumors have it, I still question how many breeders are going to even want Barbaro to service their mares with his fragile physical history? He broke down so viciously early in his 3-year-old season. And prior to that, he always needed 5 or more weeks off between carefully planned starts. Isn't that some indication of his physical fragility? And would you want that passed on to the offspring you're trying to produce? Don't know those answers, but I seem to think Barbaro's a potential negative for sire duty.

5) I hope he survives and thrives in the breeding shed (if he can handle it). If not, at least save him so he can lead a good life on a farm. But don't just "try to keep him alive" if he is suffering during those efforts.

Just my two cents on it all.

[blind squirrel]

Just heard that Barbaro has as a bad a case of Laminitis a horse can get. Very sad stuff.


i'd never heard of LAMINITIS until SECRETARIAT'S death.
BIG RED got me interested in racing and died on my
birthday OCTOBER 4.....can't be good for BARBARO.

[bigmack]

After following the story for a long time of this talented fellow I was never shy about my concern over his condition and was "pimped" by a number of folk for my concern afterall "it's just a horse". I trust they'll do the right thing for him and it'll be OK.

At this point I feel bad for all the kids that have followed the story and were hopeful that he'd live to have little B's galloping around.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Good for racing he did not get this bad closer to the the TC races.

[JPinMaryland]

kenwood: can you explain what you are trying to say? He broke down in the Preakness which is about as "close" to the triple crown series as you can get. Other than that, I cannot fathom what you are trying to say.

****

ANyhow, this is tough news to swallow. He appeared to have done so well to come out of surgery and he did so well to stay calm on the track after a severe breakdown. It looked like he had a little luck after a bad break.

As far as getting all worked up about one horse. People by nature cannot pour every emotion into every sad event. Would you cry as much for a child in Iraq or wherever as much as for your own child? No, you cant, it's impossible to shed equal amount of tears for all tragedies.

Maybe it's enough that we can at least feel something for one horse at one moment in time.

[Steve 'StatMan']

At least we can all be assured that everything really was done to save him. That might help us all deflect the common negative criticism when some ingnoamous claims we don't care about the animals, or that we really could save a lot of them if only the (insert your own negative adjective here) owners/track/etc. would spend enough money, etc.

[Ron]

kenwood: can you explain what you are trying to say? He broke down in the Preakness which is about as "close" to the triple crown series as you can get. Other than that, I cannot fathom what you are trying to say.



He's clearly saying that its good for racing that Barbaro lasted this long, and it wasn't during or right after the Triple Crown. Most casual fans have already forgot about him.

Can you explain what you are trying to say?

[alydar44]

4) As far as saving Barbaro solely for "stud duty" as some rumors have it, I still question how many breeders are going to even want Barbaro to service their mares with his fragile physical history? He broke down so viciously early in his 3-year-old season. And prior to that, he always needed 5 or more weeks off between carefully planned starts. Isn't that some indication of his physical fragility? And would you want that passed on to the offspring you're trying to produce? Don't know those answers, but I seem to think Barbaro's a potential negative for sire duty.


Are you kidding? If this horse lives, the line will be around the track for his breeding services. They rush to breed to horses even more fragile than him. Take a look at empire maker.

I agree I'd prefer to breed to a durable horse, but thats not the case with breeders today. They'll breed to anything that show an ounce of talent on the track, regardless of how fragile they are.

[Ron]

How is Empire Maker more fragile then Barbaro? As far as I know Empire Maker is not fighting for his life.

[alydar44]

How is Empire Maker more fragile then Barbaro? As far as I know Empire Maker is not fighting for his life.

One catastrophic injury does not make a horse fragile. Was ruffian or go for wand fragile?

On the other hand, a horse that is constantly bothered by injuries is fragile, such as empire maker.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Ron and Steve said it better than I- I was speaking strictly from a PR point of view, casual fans were shocked about the breakdown, but are not on the deathwatch some of us are.
Stronach said it crassly- In racing sometimes young horses and old connections die. That is part of the game, like it or not.
On the positive side, vets are learning new things about treating leg problems so no matter what happens other horses could benefit; there was a foundation started; and he's not dead yet.
Maybe someday they will figure out a better surface for recooperating horses to stand on. Polystall or something.

[LaughAndBeMerry]

I live down the block from Palm Meadows where Barbaro wintered. I spent a lot of mornings b.s'ing with the trainers (but never Michael Matz) that stable here at a local deli after they were finished for the morning. The three things I heard most often about Barbaro this winter were:

a) he's a freak on grass
b) he might even be more of a freak on dirt
c) he won't last long.

I'm not saying anyone predicted he'd break down running in a TC race, but it was pretty well known that he had major soundess issues, especially considering he was a Dynaformer. Took until October of his 2YO year to get to the races where he was able to make two starts. Then a race every six weeks in Florida before the 8 week lay-up into the Derby (with a spotty worktab in between). It doesn't make any of this any less tragic, but Ruffian or Go For Wand he wasn't. They both had extended campaigns at 2 and/or 3 before they broke down with little warning. The only time Barbaro was forced to go back to the races on less than 5 weeks he snapped a leg.

I sure hope they can save him, but as a breeder I'd have reservations about sending any mares to him. That goes for Empire Maker, and Ghostzapper as well. When you breed cripples to cripples all you get is a generation of horses capable of showing up maybe 10 times a year. It's how you end up with $750,000 stakes races with five horse fields.

JMHO.

[bigmack]

When you breed cripples to cripples
LaughABM- I believe you're what is commonly referred to as - nuts!

[LaughAndBeMerry]

LaughABM- I believe you're what is commonly referred to as - nuts!

I don't see what part of that was lost on you.

Wow, two hypens and an exclamation point in the same sentence! I guess that's what seven years of high school will do for you.

[alydar44]

I was never comparing barbaro to go for wand or ruffian. I was only showing ron that the argument "fighting for his life" does not work.

Since empire maker is healthy enough to breed now that makes him sounder than barbaro?

I too would not take a chance, with the fees they demand, breeding to a horse with great bloodlines but soundness issues.

But breeders today to not care. Thats why we are seeing less and less sound horses that last their whole career.

[bigmack]

I don't see what part of that was lost on you.

I have little interest in furthering the personal barbs - You seem like a reasonable fellow.

How bout we wait for things to play out before we start with this breeding of "cripples to cripples" thing.

OK BeMerry?

[Pace Cap'n]

LaughABM- I believe you're what is commonly referred to as - nuts!

See what I mean?

[Tom]

Laugh...I see where you are coming form, and I agree in spirit.
I think the widespread use of lasiz has already had a disatorous effect on today's horses. Horse that never would have raced and become "stars" on dope are now breeding the genes that nature was trying to select against.
I don't know that there is anything at all in Barbaro that would label him a cripple. I don't know that he couldn't on less than 5 weeks, it may have been his trainer taking care of a really good horse. I don't know that Barbaro's break down has anyting to do with poor breeding. I do know the horse has class - real class. He did everything on the track he was asked to do, and he did everything in the hospital that he was asked to do. I sure all hell would breed to him if I had a mare and some money.

[LaughAndBeMerry]

I have little interest in furthering the personal barbs - You seem like a reasonable fellow.

How bout we wait for things to play out before we start with this breeding of "cripples to cripples" thing.

OK BeMerry?

Fair enough.

I have nothing but respect for the horse and his connections. My point was simply when we bitch and moan about the short fields we see around the country we've got to at put at least some of the blame on breeding practices over the past 20 years. What's the first thing that comes to mind about the Dynaformer line? Hickory, solid on all surfaces, gets better with age. Just like Dynaformer himself. How about the Storm Cat line? Fast, generally precocious, typically don't run beyond age 3. Just like their pop. What will we see from the Ghostzapper's? Horses capable of putting in a peak effort four times a year? How about the Smarty Jones'? Too much emphasis on speed, not enough on durability. When they retire those 6YO grass horses most of them can't even find a farm to stand them.

LBM

[LaughAndBeMerry]

Laugh...I don't know that there is anything at all in Barbaro that would label him a cripple. I don't know that he couldn't on less than 5 weeks, it may have been his trainer taking care of a really good horse.

Maybe, but the word all winter was the horse wasn't going to last long. Again, I'm not saying anyone expected him to breakdown in the Preakness it was common knowledge he had physical problems. For a turf horse to need weeks to get back to the track to work after a race...

I think Matz did a very good job of managing him. He was right on the day he needed to be. Can't argue with the results. I'm saying the fact that he needed the 8 weeks to get to that point might not be a trait I'd want in my foals.

[bigmack]

I have nothing but respect for the horse and his connections. My point was simply when we bitch and moan about the short fields we see around the country we've got to at put at least some of the blame on breeding practices over the past 20 years.
An excellent point and stated with eloquence. I retract my inappropriate comment to you as you have insight and again make a valid question of breeding. Thanks for that!

[Steve 'StatMan']

Hmmm. We're getting 'cripple' x 'cripple' = offspring horses

Many of the best run maybe 10-15 times, maybe less for the TC event/Big stakes winners, their whole lives, then off to the breeding shed as 3yos.

Many of the slower ones with the 'cripple' breeding end up being washouts - running for $3,500 to $10,000 claiming tags in the minors, and end up being asked to run 15-20 times a year, perhaps for several years, and are lucky to return enough purses to pay their keep for the year, for mulitple seasons - these that are much slower, have more noticible early defects, etc. than the TC/Big Stakes event winners that run so many fewer races in their careers.

Something is definitely wrong with this picture.

[RXB]

Excellent posts, LaughAndBeMerry.

[JPinMaryland]

In contrast to the fragility criticism, they do try to breed stouter mares to those sires thought to be unsound in hopes of getting reasonably sound offspring. So maybe that could be done in Barbaro's case, assuming he lives...

On the other hand, the empirical evidence seems obvious that tbs are making less starts. And at least anecdotally fields seem to be smaller. Something definitely going wrong from the breed's stand pt.

ANd then there's Barbaro and how he fits into all this. Is he symptomatic of this trend? I hadnt thought so but reading this thread is making a believer out of me. Just like the break down of Venetian Way (if I recall) and Bally Ache and those other horses of the 60s seem to be a foreshadowing..

Who is really to blame? Is it the breeders? Or is it the purses? Was there a spike in the purses for the triple crown that commenced a breeding pattern built upon precocious three year olds? Was it when those Raise a Native/Northern Dancer lines started to completely dominate the classic races and rise in attendant stud fees? I dunno, comments??

[PaceAdvantage]

He's clearly saying.....

He's absolutely NOT saying anything CLEARLY....it took me a couple of reads to get his meaning....that's par for the course with ol' lovable Ken....

And that's the end of this thread tangent....thanks....

[PaceAdvantage]

The only time Barbaro was forced to go back to the races on less than 5 weeks he snapped a leg.

Does a reasonable person of reasonable intelligence really believe that less than 5 weeks rest causes a REAR leg to break mere moments into a race?

Don't rear leg injuries tend to happen more often on the turf or on softer, sandier dirt courses like Belmont? What are the implications of such tendencies when applied to the Barbaro case?

Would any horsemen care to comment on what type of soundness issues might cause a rear leg to break only seconds into a race?

I firmly believe the circumstances surrounding Barbaro's breakdown lead to no conclusions other than a confluence of bad racing luck.

Even your most crippled, bottom rung claimers running at Yavapai or Charles Town have the self respect to wait until at least the middle of the race to snap their FRONT legs, which, as we all know, bear the brunt of the forces generated with each and every stride.

[LaughAndBeMerry]

I didn't say that racing back on less 5 weeks caused his rear leg to snap. My point was that by some accounts, he wasn't a very sound animal. He was however, very fast and all heart. That can be a deadly combination. A horse with a lesser spirit would be more likely not to run through any kind of soreness.

He broke down plain and simple. Was the rear breakdown the result of a bad step or was it the result of some very small change in his gait because he felt a little sore that day. We will never know. But it's a fact when you breed fast but infirm sires to infirm mares, many of whom never even reach the track (eg. "Hip # 123 is by the brilliant sire Storm Cat out of an unraced sister to (fill in the blank graded SW") you're likely to get fast horses that don't hold up. Now pumping them full of steroids to put on bulk before they reach the yearling sales sure doesn't help much, but that's for another time.

[bigmack]

Now pumping them full of steroids to put on bulk before they reach the yearling sales sure doesn't help much, but that's for another time.
Come on LBM - Most have not come from the Tyson plant.

[LaughAndBeMerry]

P.S.

I watched the Florida Derby live with a good friend of mine that's been in the bloodstock business all his life. His first comment to me after Barbaro crossed the finish line was

"he's got the perfect confirmation for CD. He'll win the Derby." (unfortunately I didn't listen to him when he told me to bet out on him after watching him work Derby week)

His second comment, after watching him gallop out was

"damn, he hits the ground hard. He's not going to stay sound very long if they keep him on dirt."

LBM

[LaughAndBeMerry]

Come on LBM - Most have not come from the Tyson plant.

Skinny legs, lots of (un-natural) bulk to support at an age when they're still developing. See Stevie Wonderboy. Bloodstock friends of mine in KY say it's an enormous problem. Bulk'em and they're more likely to break down. Send a natural (i.e. skinnier one) to the sales and they end up RNA.

[bigmack]

Skinny legs, lots of (un-natural) bulk to support at an age when they're still developing.
I trust I can anticipate your response by your feeling that todays bulk is a result of "un-natural" means but the monster in my avatar did pretty well with substantial bulk @ 2

[PaceAdvantage]

"damn, he hits the ground hard. He's not going to stay sound very long if they keep him on dirt."

LBM

It's weird that lots of people say this about Barbaro. Compared to a horse like Skip Away, I just don't see it....yeah, his action was a little high, but his stride was admired by many, and it just never appeared to me as if he was hitting the ground all that hard, ala Skip Away. I guess it's back to the VCR for me....

Then again, if he was indeed hitting the ground so hard as to cause injury in the long run as your friend proclaimed, it's still odd his breakdown would occur in the rear, which doesn't receive shock like the front legs of a hard pounding horse.

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't say that racing back on less 5 weeks caused his rear leg to snap. My point was that by some accounts, he wasn't a very sound animal.

Well, you did say "The only time Barbaro was forced to go back to the races on less than 5 weeks he snapped a leg," which is a little bit more than an inference I would think.

In any event, I appreciate your contributions to this thread, as I am trying to learn more everyday just like most others here....that's why I tend to ask a lot of questions and question a lot of answers....

[WJ47]

I thought Barbaro looked like a strong and healthy colt. I think his unfortunate breakdown was just one of those things that happens in racing.

[toetoe]

:(

[KingChas]

Barbaro's broken leg isn't the problem.The cause yes.
I may be wrong on this but can't any horse healthy or not develope laminitis.This would seem to me to be a more common disease(?) among horses.
As in humans so many cases but no cure :confused: So actually working more on laminitis research and cure (prevention) would go a lot further in saving an injured horses life.
To the experienced horsemen here why can't they be kept in a pool with a light floatation device for a time to take the weight off the good leg?

Good Luck Barbaro don't give up :ThmbUp:

[JPinMaryland]

as far as the steriod/putting on bulk comment goes... I dont recall Barbaro being overly muscled or maybe I am forgetting? Tall and rangey maybe?

[PaceAdvantage]

I may be wrong on this but can't any horse healthy or not develope laminitis.

Yes, but there are usually contributing factors....Secretariat ultimately succumbed to this painful disease at age 19.....

Laminitis explained:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminitis

[bigmack]

For what it's worth:

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060503/SPORTS0801/605030464/1002/SPORTS

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=33446

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/BarbaroSpotlight.asp
(right side pedigree profile)

[the little guy]

Barbaro's injury was nothing more, and nothing less, than bad luck. All these post race theories and hypotheses are absurd. I would assume that most of us have been around the game long enough to know that they are fragile animals that are ALWAYS one step away from catastrophe. Most of the time these catastrophes happen in races most of us don't notice. Sometimes they occur in races we do see and most of the time we simply say some variation of " it's a brutal game ". Just because this time it happened to a high profile horse in a high profile race doesn't make it any different than the plethora of other tragic races and events.

Yes, it hits most of us harder because it happened to a terrific horse in front of millions of eyes, but that doesn't mean it was either predictable or preventable. Simply said, it sucks, but enough of the " we should have seen it coming " posts, as they are neither true nor relevent.

Why is this worse than the seemingly preventable demise of Say Cousin Lenny, a horse who nobody here commented about at all?

[KingChas]

Barbaro's injury was nothing more, and nothing less, than bad luck. All these post race theories and hypotheses are absurd. I would assume that most of us have been around the game long enough to know that they are fragile animals that are ALWAYS one step away from catastrophe.
?

You summed it up real quick TLG. :ThmbUp:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Not much to comment on, just enough records to speculate that the owner would give Say Cousin Leeny to any trainer that will work the horse hard enough to finish well, even a series of bi-monthly Alw's in front wraps until they had to slow it down to a 1 month break, but that didn't work, so they gave it 3 months and ran it hard enough for a win, but that messed it up so bad it was off 1 year until this July 9- obviously by the end of that race the horse can no longer race. Probably should have retired it permanently April 2005 instead of switching owners to whoever will take it and try to train it.
At least that is what it says in the PP's. I wonder how good of exams the horse got prior to this July 9th's race?
I have benn advocating nuclear and ultrsound exams every 6 months.
Let me know if you hear what the end result is.
Do you know anything about the owner, Sanford Bacon?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Web says Bacon has been around awhils, breeder and owner- probably leaves the hands on training of racers to whichever trainer says he (or she?) can produce with the horse.
Trainer Gary Gullo- web say he trained 25 years, quit for a month to be Chavez' agent, then began training again. Appearantly Gullo recently got Say Cousin Lenny after the long layoff to try to put the horse back in racing shape. Not many workouts leading up to this race. First recorded work after layoff was 5/41 4f, then a slower 5f, then about 13/36 4f aweek prior to the race, 2 post, blinkers, 20% E. Coa- they were going to give Lenny one heck of a shakledown cruise!!

[bigmack]

Dr Dean:

Today he looks very good," Richardson said. ``His right leg looks to be healing well. He's eating well, walks around his stall, his eyes are bright and his ears are perked up. He nickers when people come near. "If you look at this horse, it would be very hard to put him down."

[maxwell]

I never had a good feeling about this guy's chances; all those screws and plates.

I was starting to have a little faith but I should have known better. I hope he proves me wrong ... but I don't see it. :(

[LaughAndBeMerry]

as far as the steriod/putting on bulk comment goes... I dont recall Barbaro being overly muscled or maybe I am forgetting? Tall and rangey maybe?

I don't think Barbaro was bulked up on steroids.

1) Matz is more a hay, oats & water kind of trainer (see O'Neill,Dutrow,Pletcher).

2) Barbaro was a homebred. If the breeder isn't planning on selling the foal there's not as much pressure to push along his development.

Take a look at some of the pictures from the KEE or SAR yearling sales. The 1YOs look like 2YOs used to look, and the 2YO's in training look like 3YOs. That's not all mother nature.



P.S. Steroids are a prohibited substance in the Far East and Middle East (Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai). See the DQ of Brass Hat, Whilly not shipping to HK because O'Neill feared a positive test, Da Hoss scratched on the eve of a race in HK for testing positive, etc.

[PaceAdvantage]

A glimmer?

Barbaro 'Doing Much Better' Friday Morning (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34407)
Barbaro was doing "much better" Friday morning, a day after his veterinarian said the classic winner was a "long shot" to survive a potentially fatal hoof disease. Blood-Horse (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34407)

[Barbaro2006]

Barbaro just has to pull thru this!! He is a champion and a beautiful colt with a large heart and lots of courage!! I've gotten very attached to this colt and it just sickens me to think of them having to put him down. Yesterday when the news was saying he was getting worse and the possibility of putting him down could happen within 24 hrs, all i could do was cry. This horse deserves to run around the paddocks, breed if he wants too, have a happy and healthy life and not be in pain. I know that if the disease gets worse it's only humane to put him down, but i really hope they don't give up on him. Miracles happen and I believe Barbaro deserves his miracle. I don't give up on animals I care about and I don't think the Jacksons are willing to either. I will continue to keep my fave colt in my prayers and thoughts and I hope others do as well.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Barbaro's injury was nothing more, and nothing less, than bad luck. All these post race theories and hypotheses are absurd. I would assume that most of us have been around the game long enough to know that they are fragile animals that are ALWAYS one step away from catastrophe. Most of the time these catastrophes happen in races most of us don't notice. Sometimes they occur in races we do see and most of the time we simply say some variation of " it's a brutal game ". Just because this time it happened to a high profile horse in a high profile race doesn't make it any different than the plethora of other tragic races and events.

Yes, it hits most of us harder because it happened to a terrific horse in front of millions of eyes, but that doesn't mean it was either predictable or preventable. Simply said, it sucks, but enough of the " we should have seen it coming " posts, as they are neither true nor relevent.

Why is this worse than the seemingly preventable demise of Say Cousin Lenny, a horse who nobody here commented about at all?


Great post and very true!!

[46zilzal]

I went through the Thoroughbred Record's Almanac looking up the obituaries of horses that had passed in that year and about HALF were put down from complications from laminitis. That is what got Secretariat as well.

[alydar44]

I just watched a replay of the derby. My favorite part was at the turn when he got even with sinister minister.

He bumped him as if to say "get out of my way"

The bump was nothing hard, but sinister minister quickly got out of the way cause I guess he knew what was coming.

[WJ47]

I went through the Thoroughbred Record's Almanac looking up the obituaries of horses that had passed in that year and about HALF were put down from complications from laminitis. That is what got Secretariat as well.

I believe Sunday Silence suffered from laminitis as well. I think he had it for a long time, maybe 3 months, and they were considering putting him down to end his suffering. But he had a heart attack before they did.

The latest news on Barbaro is encouraging. He's certainly fighting! :)

[JPinMaryland]

that bumping they do is crazy. I guess it is called dominance. I saw Proud Accolade to that to a horse at BEL, I think it was the CHampaign stakes maybe. This horse thought he'd challenge PA but PA just swatted him into place and there he sat on the rail not challenging anyone. That bump had some force behind it.

I didnt notice Barb doing that in KY Derby. He did try to do that in the FL derby but that other horse was too game to succumb.

****

I think we have to be circumspect about the good news today. This laminitis stuff has to be watched closely.

[JPinMaryland]

Just read the story linked to above. What does this quote mean:


"If he starts acting like he doesn't want to stand on the leg, that's it - that will be when we call it quits,"

Which leg does he mean? The left one (w/ laminitis) or the right one (broken)? What would it mean if he doesnt want to stand on the leg anyhow? DOes it mean he is in too much pain? Does it mean laminitis has returned?

Sorry, I just not up to speed on horse ailments.

[alydar44]

I assume they mean the leg with the laminites. He developed it from not wanting to stand on his other leg and putting all his leg on the then healthy leg.

[Wiley]

Just read the story linked to above. What does this quote mean:


"If he starts acting like he doesn't want to stand on the leg, that's it - that will be when we call it quits,"

Which leg does he mean? The left one (w/ laminitis) or the right one (broken)?
I think he means the laminitis left hind leg, the biggest problem right now. Comes down to the pain factor, if he won't put any weight on the leg he is in discomfort. Laminitis in the uninjured leg was the big concern early on and the concern is now a reality.
He is a tough dude hope he pulls through.

[RXB]

Barbaro's injury was nothing more, and nothing less, than bad luck. All these post race theories and hypotheses are absurd.

We'll never know for sure what happened, but Barbaro was handled quite gingerly. And for the record, he suffered a condylar fracture; that injury typically results from pre-existing bone weakness, not because of a bad step.

Mark Patterson, of Mountaineer Park fame, posted on another board a few days after the Derby that a reliable source had seen Barbaro's coolout after the race and said that it was not good at all.

Some people who know a lot more about horses' gaits than you or I do, said that Barbaro hit the ground mighty hard. I hadn't noticed it myself, but I had certainly noticed that Matz gave the horse a lot of time between races and plenty of time between his races and his first workout following each race. He didn't have that luxury coming into the Preakness.

If you don't think that means anything, try working out or running without giving your body whatever time it needs to recuperate properly between strenous efforts. I'll tell you from first-hand experience what can happen-- injury.

So I don't see what's absurd about what LaughAndBeMerry has posted. None of us can predict a breakdown but there are ways of detecting horses that are more likely to have problems.

[bigmack]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34420

[PaceAdvantage]

And for the record, he suffered a condylar fracture; that injury typically results from pre-existing bone weakness, not because of a bad step.

Is there any way to detect bone weakness before serious injury occurs without the use of a bone scan?

Even if Barbaro hit the ground "mighty hard," it would be with his front legs, which bear most of the shock impact of hitting the ground while running, correct? And if that's true, it doesn't go a long way to explaining his injury.

[RXB]

I'm not a vet, so I can't give exact reasons beyond what I read from (or am told by) knowledgeable sources. But I've been handicapping horse races for 27 years and I can tell when running lines, workout patterns and other info in the past performances indicate that physical problems might be lurking. I didn't know anything about Barbaro's hard-hitting action or the rumours from Fla horsemen but to me his activity pattern raised a real red flag regarding a two-week comeback.

Most injuries occur in the front, of course, but rear leg injuries also happen. Why the back leg? I guess that's where the inherent weakness was. And Barbaro didn't just snap one bone; his back leg absolutely crumbled after the condylar fractured.

Bone scans can detect specific problems sometimes but apparently they're not infallible. Seems to me that Matz knew that he had to handle Barbaro carefully, and he did. But the lure of the Triple Crown intervened, just like it did with Majestic Prince in the '69 Belmont when the owners decided to run him despite Johnny Longden's strong objections. (MP didn't break down, but he suffered significant injury and never ran again.)

It's a tough situation because if you don't run you'll always wonder "What if?" and also you'll face the wrath of the public and media who'll call you "chicken." But if you do run, you take a chance.

I just hope that Barbaro pulls through; he's a model patient and that gives reason for hope.

[LaughAndBeMerry]

That with all the "so-called" advancements in medication, supplements, training methods, etc. in the U.S over the last 20 years our top horses can only manage 6-10 race campaigns? Horses in Hong Kong and Australia, without the benefit of our wonder drugs average 15-20 starts a year. It's not uncommon for thier graded stakes performers to come back on 5 days rest. Hell, horses like Ghostzapper needed 5 MONTHS between races.

Maybe the improvements we've made to the breed aren't improvements after all.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"But I've been handicapping horse races for 27 years and I can tell when running lines, workout patterns and other info in the past performances indicate that physical problems might be lurking."
Do you have anything handy you can email or PM me? Thanks!

[kenwoodallpromos]

That with all the "so-called" advancements in medication, supplements, training methods, etc. in the U.S over the last 20 years our top horses can only manage 6-10 race campaigns? Horses in Hong Kong and Australia, without the benefit of our wonder drugs average 15-20 starts a year. It's not uncommon for thier graded stakes performers to come back on 5 days rest. Hell, horses like Ghostzapper needed 5 MONTHS between races.

Maybe the improvements we've made to the breed aren't improvements after all.
________
"[DOC] WASTAGE IN THE AUSTRALIANFile Format: Microsoft Word - View as HTML
From humble beginnings, the Australian Thoroughbred racing industry has ... An increasing number of starts per year was associated with a decreased risk of ...
www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HOR/US-25A.doc - Similar pages "
Thanks! Your post spurred me to find this ! Australia as of 1992- just under 6 races per year, but less % incidence of breakdown and injuries- USA sources feel worse overall weather and other-than-fast-labeled tracks may be a factor.

[LaughAndBeMerry]

________
"[DOC] WASTAGE IN THE AUSTRALIANFile Format: Microsoft Word - View as HTML
From humble beginnings, the Australian Thoroughbred racing industry has ... An increasing number of starts per year was associated with a decreased risk of ...
www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HOR/US-25A.doc (http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HOR/US-25A.doc) - Similar pages "
Thanks! Your post spurred me to find this ! Australia as of 1992- just under 6 races per year, but less % incidence of breakdown and injuries- USA sources feel worse overall weather and other-than-fast-labeled tracks may be a factor.

I don't follow this. Just under 6 starts per year? Are you kidding me? Poke around on this site

http://www.aapracingandsports.com.au/racing/
or this one

http://www.australianracing.com/index.php?page_id=8&section_id=2&newmember=true


for some PPs. I'd say their group horses race every 21 days on average and I've seen GR1 horses race 3 times in a month. How about that Australian horse in GB last year that ran in 2 Group sprints at Ascot in five days?

[kenwoodallpromos]

I don't follow this. Just under 6 starts per year? Are you kidding me? Poke around on this site

http://www.aapracingandsports.com.au/racing/
or this one

http://www.australianracing.com/index.php?page_id=8&section_id=2&newmember=true


for some PPs. I'd say their group horses race every 21 days on average and I've seen GR1 horses race 3 times in a month. How about that Australian horse in GB last year that ran in 2 Group sprints at Ascot in five days?

My interest in post-checking individual PP's is when a horse breaks down. The link I gave you is a comprehensive study done in about 1993.

[NYPlayer]

I'm not a vet, so I can't give exact reasons beyond what I read from (or am told by) knowledgeable sources. But I've been handicapping horse races for 27 years and I can tell when running lines, workout patterns and other info in the past performances indicate that physical problems might be lurking. I didn't know anything about Barbaro's hard-hitting action or the rumours from Fla horsemen but to me his activity pattern raised a real red flag regarding a two-week comeback.

Most injuries occur in the front, of course, but rear leg injuries also happen. Why the back leg? I guess that's where the inherent weakness was. And Barbaro didn't just snap one bone; his back leg absolutely crumbled after the condylar fractured.

Bone scans can detect specific problems sometimes but apparently they're not infallible. Seems to me that Matz knew that he had to handle Barbaro carefully, and he did. But the lure of the Triple Crown intervened, just like it did with Majestic Prince in the '69 Belmont when the owners decided to run him despite Johnny Longden's strong objections. (MP didn't break down, but he suffered significant injury and never ran again.)

It's a tough situation because if you don't run you'll always wonder "What if?" and also you'll face the wrath of the public and media who'll call you "chicken." But if you do run, you take a chance.

I just hope that Barbaro pulls through; he's a model patient and that gives reason for hope.

RXB,

I found your posts quite informative, and really gets to the heart of the issue - The connections knew they had to handle him gingerly, and they took a chance.

From the latest headlines, it appears that Barbao is managing, but the undertone of the article seems to suggest that they will not have the horse suffer, i.e. they will not put forth the longsuffering and patient effort that Nureyev underwent in the 80's. The assistant trainer was pushing Barbaro's half brother, Man In Havana, who occupies Barbaro's old stall. Were he to survive laminitis, his career at stud would be likely be in serious jeopardy, and it might still be possible to make an insurance claim.

My only question is, what do you tell the 7 year olds?

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/15024686.htm

http://www.nypost.com/sports/barbaro_comfortable_sports_ed_fountaine.htm

[the little guy]

I found your posts quite informative, and really gets to the heart of the issue - The connections knew they had to handle him gingerly, and they took a chance.


Really. And you know this because.....?

[Observer]

Were he to survive laminitis, his career at stud would be likely be in serious jeopardy, and it might still be possible to make an insurance claim.

You're suggesting he's being kept alive for stud but if that can't work out, they'll make a claim on insurance? I think a stud career at this point is the farthest thing from the minds of the Jacksons and Matz.

Claims like that are offensive. Why can't this just be a simple case of an owner trying to do everything for the animal.

Has anyone ever had to make the difficult decision to have an animal put to sleep??? It's an awful choice to make .. and there's always your own second-guessing .. did we really try everything?? .. should we have given one more day?? .. it sucks!!

It's tough enough to make a decision like that in the privacy of your own home .. here the whole country (and even the world) is following along and making judgements .. that he should have been put down .. that the Jacksons are doing this out of greed and/or for money .. that the horse is being tortured .. that a lesser animal would have been put down.

It's a sad part of life, but even humans aren't equal when it comes to medical coverage and treatment. Why should we expect it to be any different for horses? The only real difference is that humans can choose to euthanize animals, not fellow humans (legally, anyway).

But when owners are financially fortunate enough and an animal shows a spark, anything less than continuing the fight for life is simply wrong. Barbaro's still fighting, and it's not for a career at stud. It's simply for his life.

[cj]

Did it occur to anyone that the reason he was lightly raced was to have him ready for a TRIPLE CROWN run? How many horses recently have been finished by the Belmont and beaten by horses that had skipped one or two legs of the TC?

It isn't like this is some enlightening revelation on my part. The trainer said this after the Kentucky Derby, before the Preakness, when asked why he was so lightly raced. Speculate if you wish, but I have no reason to think he was lying at the time as he had no reason to do so.

[Observer]

his back leg absolutely crumbled after the condylar fractured.

So now you're such an expert you can claim the condylar fracture happened first, yet Barbaro's own set of specialists haven't been able to put an order to the occurence of his injuries at the Preakness.

:rolleyes:

[Observer]

Did it occur to anyone that the reason he was lightly raced was to have him ready for a TRIPLE CROWN run? ... The trainer said this after the Kentucky Derby, before the Preakness, when asked why he was so lightly raced...

I seem to recall Matz answering the lightly-raced question going into the Kentucky Derby .. maybe even after Barbaro won his final prep .. because everyone made it seem impossible that a horse could win the Derby off a 5-week layoff, because it hadn't happened in so many years.

It became more of an issue after he did win the Derby, because now he had to wheel back in 2 weeks .. so now that was a problem. Everyone forgets that Barbaro was one of the few horses to work between the Derby and Preakness.

And the media will always find "can't do it because" reasons .. it creates drama. The 5-week gap was the drama into the Derby, the 2-week turnaround was the drama into the Preakness.

Had Barbaro finished up the track at Churchill, it would have been because of the 5-week layoff. Now, the light campaign with the quick turnaround is the reason why he broke down in the Preakness. Just as now it's oh so obvious Barbaro's owners are keeping this horse going with a greedy eye on a stud career .. beginning next season, of course.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ELA]

Barbaro's injury was nothing more, and nothing less, than bad luck. All these post race theories and hypotheses are absurd. I would assume that most of us have been around the game long enough to know that they are fragile animals that are ALWAYS one step away from catastrophe. Most of the time these catastrophes happen in races most of us don't notice. Sometimes they occur in races we do see and most of the time we simply say some variation of " it's a brutal game ". Just because this time it happened to a high profile horse in a high profile race doesn't make it any different than the plethora of other tragic races and events.

Yes, it hits most of us harder because it happened to a terrific horse in front of millions of eyes, but that doesn't mean it was either predictable or preventable. Simply said, it sucks, but enough of the " we should have seen it coming " posts, as they are neither true nor relevent.

Why is this worse than the seemingly preventable demise of Say Cousin Lenny, a horse who nobody here commented about at all?

I agree 100%! All of the rest is nothing more than supposition, rhetoric, vacillation, justfication, blame, and so on and so on . . .

Eric

[bigmack]

I agree 100%! All of the rest is nothing more than supposition, rhetoric, vacillation, justfication, blame, and so on and so on . . .
Agreed Ela - CONJECTURE CENTRAL!

[PaceAdvantage]

The connections knew they had to handle him gingerly, and they took a chance.

I assume this is pure speculation on your part, correct?

[headhawg]

A couple of articles with contrasting opinions:

Phil Taylor (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/phil_taylor/07/19/barbaro/index.html)

Rick Telander (http://www.chicagosuntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick19.html)

[Observer]

That second piece is sickening .. I guess that's the point .. but it was WAY overboard .. and I'm wondering how accurate.