Poverty in America

[so.cal.fan]

I watched a show on TV last night about people in our country who live off minimum wage jobs.
They did a two hour special on the lives of 5 different people.
It was very interesting. I had no idea there was so much poverty in America. (of course I have no idea of most things...LOL)
Anyway, they talked about the trap this is........sort of like the welfare trap.
A very large section of our population lives on around $15K a year.
How many of US, on this board could do that?:(

[boxcar]

so.cal.fan wrote:

>>
A very large section of our population lives on around $15K a year. How many of US, on this board could do that?
>>

Perhaps the better question is how many of us on this board chose to not fall into that low income "trap"?

And my second set of questions to you is this: What should the middle and upper income Americans do about the plight of these minimum wage people? Should we subsidize their income? Should we allow our goverment to rob those of us not in their situation to pay the poor. Is massive income redistribution the answer? Should we further expand the welfare state from what it is now?

Boxcar

[so.cal.fan]

I don't know how to solve the problem,.
Their point on the report was that instead of being on welfare, there are people who work hard at one low paying job after another, and never seem to get out of the trap, and the pattern seems to continue from one generation to another.
One woman had two jobs just to be able to support her two small children. She worked in a school cafeteria during the morning and early afternoon, then a day care center the rest of the day. She loved her work, but was struggling to get ahead.
Another woman lived in a motel in Las Vegas with her five year old son, and her parents! She worked in a dry cleaners.
Obviously the majority of these folks do not have good educations, but the ones they interviewed did not want to be on welfare.
Perhaps it is the way things are suppose to be for these folks, their" Universal Arrangement", where they are in their evolution at this point in time. Perhaps the rest of us, or I should say our ego personalities are offended by seeing poverty. We think something should be done to correct it. Again, I don't know.
Whose to say that the drunk in the street, is not suppose to be there, perhaps that is his path?
What is your solution, Boxcar?:confused:

[Rick]

Most of the time these people have made very bad choices without considering the consequences of their actions. For example, having children when you can't afford to take care of them adequately. Once you've started a family, you can't take as many risks. Those who have escaped poverty have thought about improving their economic situation first and had families later. There are practically unlimited opportunities for single young people who can afford to live on less income while they get training for a better job.

Another bad choice people make is continue to live in high cost-of-living areas where their minimum wage won't go as far. Staying in an area where jobs are lacking instead of going somewhere with more opportunies is another common mistake.

All of these things require some sacrifices, but if you're not born into a privileged situation that's what's necessary. When I got out of high school in 1965 I looked around and didn't see anyone handing me anything on a silver platter, so I joined the Air Force. It was a risky choice, but the only way I could really get anywhere and it worked out. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[so.cal.fan]

What you say makes sense, but not everyone is as gifted as you are, especially these women. They aren't natural born risk takers.
They are afraid.
You would have been successful no matter what you chose to do.
Fortunately there is a good sized percentage of our population who are like you.
However.......there is also a large percentage of weaker types.
They seem incapable of doing as you suggest. Life always seems to be a struggle for them.

[Rick]

SCF,

I understand what you're talking about but don't know what to do about it. Intelligence is one part of the equation but I've known a lot of people who wouldn't be considered brilliant but still had a lot of common sense about what were good choices.

Education is the first solution that comes to mind, but there are still a lot of people in the world who think that the number of children they have is the best measure of their success. I'm not arguing with that opinion, but if they make that choice they can't expect anything but sacrifice and financial failure at the same time. You can't have it both ways.

I don't subscribe to the theory that women are naturally afraid or not risk-takers because I've seen too much evidence to the contrary. In fact, I think women are eventually going to get the majority of the decision-making positions in the country. But it may take a while before the majority of women are willing to vote for the best women candidates. Many times women seem to be much more anti-women than men are.

[boxcar]

Rick, you're on the mark here for the most part. I have to think that poor personal choices accounts for most of the poverty in this country.
Indulge me for a moment with this real life ancedote, which will serve as another good example.

One of my neighbors (one of the more dysfunctional familes in the area that I know of) is a single mom with three kids (two still live-at-home). The oldest girl is 18 and owns a good deal of native intelligence, but is also head-strong. But even so, she hated school and her mom had to twist her arm to get her to take the GED, which she passed. But now she wants no part of college, and is content working p/t for a regional retail chain in my area, as a bookkeeper in the office -- probably making just a little more than minimum wage. Because she is sharp, she indeed _might_ advance into management -- but even so, if she advances to anything less than the assistant store manager (let's say within the next 5 years or so), she won't be making more than about $12. to $14. per hour. The real money is made by the ass't mgr. and the store mgr. can make very good money. But what if she doesn't advance or only advances to a a dept. head? By the time she's 25 or so, she'll be making maybe around $400. per week. Not exactly upper income level.

But if she exercised some common sense and owned but half the ambition of her 16 y.o. baby sister (who is an honor student in H.S.), and went on to college like her younger sis intends to do, she would be more likely to earn considerably more money in her lifetime like her sister will do if she follows through on her college plans. Choices, choices, choices...

Then we have the Libs in the federal government doing all they can do to discourage people from making good personal choices. Take all the immigrants who have migrated here in the last 20 years or so. The government (through various pieces of legislation) actually discourages these people from learning the English language. How far are these people likely to get in life by remaining in their English-ignorant state? Naturally, the Libs relish the thought of keeping more and more of the populace dumbed-down. Such people are infintely easier to manipulate and control.

And then we have the out-of-control whacko environmentalists who, if they had their way, would have us all living a cave-like lifestyle reminiscent of that in the Stone Age. In fact, one group recently condemned progess in some African country (could have been South Africa, but I forget now) and lamented over the introduction of electricity in the country because electricity was responsible for the people abandoning their culture. The group actually said that poverty isn't really all that bad!

It is noteworthy that Jesus, who only very rarely addressed social or political issues of his day, did issue a very short social commentary, as it were, about the poor. He said to his disciples, "the poor, you shall always have with you." Perhaps he offered this little commentary because he knew that many people would be prone (for one reason or another) to making poor personal choices, that others would have legitimate exucuses for their poverty with poor health problems, and that human governments would more likely contribute to the poverty problem, rather than providing viable solutions for it.

Boxcar

[Lefty]

Well, in my younger life I worked minimum wage jobs because couldn't find anything else; but never asked the taxpayers to give me anything. I and my wife worked, did without and survived.
I bet everyone of the poor people described has at least two tv's.
I saw a lady going up to a church last mon(it was free food day)and she had a cellphone strapped to her belt.
Hey, in this country we don't know what poor is

[Tom]

When you are born into poverty, you don't start out on a level playing field. As a subset of the population, posters on this board probably don't kow what it is like to have no goals, no hope for the future, no way to go. I drive thorugh areas in cities that are a crime - in Detroit, if the mayor is not dead, he should be in jail for allowing some neighborhoods to exist as they do. There is no excuse for the lack of community I see in these areas. No police, no cldean up of burnt out suildings, drug dealers on the corners, people living is squalor. It is inexcusable for a mayor or police chief or ciity councilmember to go to bed at night knowing what parts of the city are like, and not doing anything to fix it.
I lock my doors when I drive on some of these streets, then I think, geez, there is some 10 year old kid walking alone out on that street that I am afraid to drive over!
What chance does this kid ever have of getting out? What makes me really sick is that while American citizens suffer in places like this all over the country, Bush wines and dines some piece of crap self-proclaimed "royalty" from Sorry-Arabia. And General Motors keeps making record profits in the billions while they are a major contibutor to the crap these people have to live in. Why is GM not responsible for demolition of the buildings they abandon and let fall into ruin? You can find today's GM by following the slimey trail yesterday's Gm leaves behind it as it crawls out of used up cities and into new ones, like a slug.
It is pretty easy to sit back and condem poor people for not doing what we did, and throwing out anecdotal eveidence as to why poor people get what they deserve, but I wonder how many of us would be where we are today if we stated out as low as some of these do? It's like red-boarding life.
Part of taking responsibility for your actions assumes your right to a level playing field. America does not provide this to everyone-and it is a national shame.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Tom
America does not provide this to everyone-and it is a national shame.

I disagree. America provides opportunity for everyone. A level playing field? Maybe not completely level....but much better than in years past. There are cultural problems that contribute to those streets of Detroit. They are related to the bad decision making of those on the Detroit streets. Those decisions follow the expected path of the culture........ this results in generation after generation making the same bad decisions. When a person steps outside the culture and makes something of himself, they are branded a trader to the culture. They can never go back.
They live with it, but they live better.............

End of story.

[Lefty]

Tom, what would you have Bush do about these poor? Give 'em more of my money and your money via taxes that fund prgms that just keep these people from helping themselves? The govt's job is to keep the country safe not to guarantee everyone a level playing field. You know, it's surprising how many rich people started poor. I guess you can lead a person to an education but you can't make him get it.

[so.cal.fan]

Interesting comments, you guys.
I guess as humans we are all DOOMED TO MAKE CHOICES.

[boxcar]

Tom wrote:

>>
When you are born into poverty, you don't start out on a level playing field.
>>

>>
assumes your right to a level playing field. America does not provide this to everyone-and it is a national shame.
>>

A "right" (!) to a level playing field? Really? Where is this written? In what holy book? In which country's constitution?

And a "level playing field" happens to be the golden promise of Communism. Are you taking the next flight out to China or North Korea or Cuba? I can tell you this: The playing fields in those countries are far more level than you would find in any capitalistic society.

May you have a nice flight.

Boxcar

[Dave Schwartz]

Wow, what an interesting thread!

I find that I can agree with just about everything that has been said. It would appear that we horse players believe that we are both in charge and responsible for our personal destiny. What a concept.

But don't think for a minute that this (obviously logical) position is seen by all.

I have lunch occasionally with a good friend who is a bit of a bleading heart, leftist, liberal. His position is that we created the poor people by exploitation and that we need to take responsibility for that action.

Honestly, some times, as I listen to this very educated and successful man, I think that he is kidding with some of the ideas he comes up with. It keeps me reminded that (somehow) not everyone shares my opinions.

I do admit, however, a certain inability to see (much of) the "entitlists" point of view.

Ever think that you could educate the poor into becoming "less poor?" I had a housekeeper once that saw life differently after working for me for a couple of years. The self-esteem issues in her life were like an albatross around her neck. She made changes and stepped up an economic notch but did not know how to go further.

I am convinced that the liberals are right about one thing... the environment you grow up in has a huge impact on you and can be tough to overcome.

Nevertheless, it is MY responsibility to overcome that environment. I can choose to better myself... or not.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Boris]

Originally posted by Tom
It is pretty easy to sit back and condem poor people for not doing what we did, and throwing out anecdotal eveidence as to why poor people get what they deserve, but I wonder how many of us would be where we are today if we stated out as low as some of these do? It's like red-boarding life.
Part of taking responsibility for your actions assumes your right to a level playing field. America does not provide this to everyone-and it is a national shame.

Everybody gets what they deserve. My father was born into a family as poor as poor can be in Washington DC. The depression hit when he was 4. At 9, he lost 90% usage of his right arm to polio and had to learn to become left handed. So how did he manage to retire at 52 a rich man? When asked, he would quite simply answer, "I didn't want to be poor". Every other member of his family accepted their lot in life and remained in poverty, yet he refused it and developed a passion for success. He went bankrupt three times before borrowing $100 to start his fourth business which hit a homerun. Then he went back to DC and personally paid off every dollar he owed for his three previous failures. That's not a red-board, that's a fact. And there is plenty of anecdotal eveidence to support the idea that people overcome their breeding and environiment. It happens every day. The level playing field is the opportunity that awaits those that choose to act on bettering their situation, and those that don't do get exactly what they deserve. Being bitter about where someone starts in life is only a problem for those who remain bitter. People like my dad only considered it one more thing to overcome.

[Rick]

It's just not usually true that a person can't get out of poverty. If there are no opportunities in your local area, move to where there are. The biggest mistake people make is to just sit back and let things happen to them instead of trying something different. If you're in a bad situation and you don't change something, you're guaranteed to lose. If you do change things, it may not work out the first time, but eventually you'll be better off.

The people I truly feel sorry for are those that are stricken with major medical problems. You really are in a bad situation if you're unlucky enough to develop a condition that's extremely expensive to treat. Even the typical 80% coverage provided by most insurance is not enough if you get something really bad. This is one of the few areas where I think some help from the government would be appropriate. Since hospitals are required now to treat indigents in emergency situations anyway, I'd bet that we could do something better without it costing the public more money.

But it just won't work to have a "level playing field" no matter how much you're family has tried to accumulate. You just can't eliminate the incentives for trying to improve things for yourself and your family. And if there's no penalty for making bad decisions, everyone will do so and we'll all be worse off. If you took all of the wealth in the world and spread it around equally to every person we'd all have a very poor standard of living and there would be no progress at all. Unfortunately, wishing it weren't so won't help any.

[boxcar]

Several excellent posts on this thread. How very refreshing.

A couple of more things about the proverbial "level playing field" concept: First and foremost, it's anti-Nature! We see from the world around us that life can not only be "unfair" but it can be downright cruel for many people. What about people who are born with diseases or serious physical deformities? How is the field level for them?

Or what about people born into a society that discriminates horribly against them for religious, racial, ethnic reasons or for whatever-- to the point of persecution or even murder or slaughter? How should we level their playing field?

Even when we look into the animal kingodom, we find huge advantages and irreconcilable differences among the various species. The higher up the food chain a species is, the fewer life-threatening risks that species is exposed to, generally How is that natural arrangement of things "fair" to the critters lower down on the chain?

And secondly, I think many of us often overlook the indisputable fact that life's adversities (such as poverty) can and do work often to a person's benefit. In fact, this is a very important biblical principle and theme that runs throughout the bible. I will quote the Apostle Paul when he wrote to the church in Rome:

"And not only this, but we also exalt in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character, and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint..." (Rom. 5:3-5a)

While in the context of this particar passage, Paul is encouraging Christians who were being persecuted at the time for their faith in the Lord, nonetheless there is a life-transforming _principle_ in the passage that applies for all people in all periods of history. Trials, tribulations, hardships, adversites, etc. -- if handled correctly will, if nothing else, mold a person's character for the better.

I know more than a few people who are thankful today for the hardships to which they were subjected in their earlier years -- and even in recent years. Every last one of them believe they are better people today for having confronted those adversities. Most people who have built their character for the better have done it through hardships of one kind or another. They are achievers -- overcomers. Not self-pitying whiners, complainers or self-sytled victims of life's unfair or rough treatment.

Boxcar

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom,

>>>Part of taking responsibility for your actions assumes your right to a level playing field. America does not provide this to everyone-and it is a national shame.<<<

While I don't take quite as hard a stance as Boxcar, I cannot agree with your statements regarding the level playing field.

A person brought up in an urban hell hole is certainly carrying a lifetime of disadvantages and they may never get out. But why would it be my (our) responsbility to fix that? We do not live in Utopia. (It does not exist.)

There will always be poor people. In my opinion it is not our responsibility to provide a level playing field. Rather, it is our responsbility to provide a MEANS for THEM to level the playing field in THEIR OWN lives. We do that through educational opportunities and "brass ring" programs that are there for the asking. If you doubt that, just watch how easy it is for a kid that has bothered to work at school to get grants, scholarships and loans.

Furthermore, it is the responsibility of the poor to hate being poor. That should drive them to seek something better (via legal means). If they aren't driven, then they are still making poor choices and must live with the consequences.

I would be willing to wager that the majority of the people here were not born to priviledge. I was born the son of a waiter, not exactly a silver spoon lifestyle. I suppose I could build a case that I am entitled to free Anthony Robbins coaching to boost my self-esteem to the point where I could do something about the lack of spoon in my mouth.

Just my opinion.

Dave

[Rick]

Any species that is non-competitive becomes extinct in the real world and that includes humans. It certainly has happened to countries and empires in the past. The rest of the world is lucky we share as much as we do. Usually, number one is pretty cruel to all of the others.

On the other side of the coin, I think we should always try to reward those who do constructive or heroic things to help others. Sometimes, just good advice can help someone to start thinking about what they can change instead of worrying about what they can't change.

One trick I've used in the past to determine whether someone was worth helping is to lend them a small amount of money, say a dollar or even less. The guy worth helping will always pay you back, no matter how small the amount and the guy you can't trust won't. Try it sometime, it really works and can be a very good investment if you need to know if you can trust someone.

[so.cal.fan]

Interesting, Rick.
So, you have affirmed that it is character?
But, character can be learned, can't it?
Aren't we all basically selfish, but we learn to be good people so that we can be happy people?
Isn't it true, rich or poor or in between, if you have good character, you probably are a happier human being?

I think I may have "pirated" that from Aristotle?
:o :) :)

[keilan]

Agreed Interesting Thread!!

Be educated -- develop a good attitude -- build good friendships in your life and if you are married be a good husband and a better father. These are all qualities and goals any person can achieve in America with some effort, regardless of their early beginnings.

Success should not be measured by the size of your bank account, although we all require monies for our daily subsistence. There are other equally important measurements social--family -- and physical health because without these I for one would not term any life a success.

Starting poor and without character was never a sin it was always about what you did about it in the next 50 or 60 years. I have know individuals who are wealthy but are bankrupt in many areas of their lives. Poverty in America does not only refer to the people without means.

Sometimes to reach out to your fellow man will give you riches beyond anything you have previously experienced.

[Rick]

SCF & keilan,

Yes, yes, yes! Everyone talks about poverty in terms of income but most of the time having less money and being a better person is more rewarding. You can't always get what you want. But you'll usually get what you need (paraphrased from the Rolling Stones' song).

Another song I like:

www.steveforbert.com/Lyrics/Lyrics-ItIsn'tGonnaBeThatWay

I could mention a lot of others but this is probably not the appropriate place to do so.

[Rick]

Well, that link didn't work too well but maybe we should start a topic about songs that relate to horseplayers, gamblers, and other contrarian personalities. What do you think?

[Lefty]

Somebody once chided Reverand Ike about his diamond rings and fancy cars. The person said somethin like "why don't you give that money to the poor?"
"Ike" supposedly said, "the best thing I can do for the poor is not become one of them."
And, a few yrs ago I happened upon the Oprah show(accidently I assure you} and she had a number of black men on the stage from a local housing project and they spent several minutes bemoaning their fate and leveling blame.
Finally, a well dressed young black man in the audience stood up and said something like, "it doesn't have to be that way. I too came from a similar project and now i'm very successful."
The response from the stage?
"Sit down you Uncle Tom."

[Tom]

Originally posted by boxcar
Tom wrote:


A "right" (!) to a level playing field? Really? Where is this written? In what holy book? In which country's constitution?

And a "level playing field" happens to be the golden promise of Communism. Are you taking the next flight out to China or North Korea or Cuba? I can tell you this: The playing fields in those countries are far more level than you would find in any capitalistic society.

May you have a nice flight.

Boxcar

Try our own constitution - the right to equal protection under the law. When the cops don't fight crime and the mayors don't clean up the burnt out bombed out buildings, the you don't have equal protection. I use Detroit as an example, but only because it is a place I am familiar with. I hove no doubt that similar situations exist in every big city. In Rochester, NY, the black mayor had the gaul to hire a black-muslim agency to act as his security force when he attended a local "take back the streets" rally! And when he got there, he chastised the police for being racist! What the hell kind of message does this sent to the black community? Don't trust the cops! How are you going to take back the steets when you divide people instead of uniting them? I can tellyou first hand that I never ever see as many cops in a black neighborhood as I do downtown, at the airports, at the state fair......why are they not living in the crime-infested areas until they are cleaned up?
Why are burnt out building not torn down? You can bet your sweet bippy that this is not the case in downtown Detroit. Why are so many abandoned buildings left standing to house crack dealers? I am talking about elected officials taking responsibility for the people they represent - let them make the first move, do their jobs, the one they promised to do in thier campaign speeches.

[Tom]

When I said a level playing field, I meant exactly what the founding fathers of this country meant when they talked about these truths that were self-evident ( to them, at least), The right to life. Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They later expanded on this when They wrote a constitution to guarantee equal protection under the law. My take on this is that The mayor has a responsibility to represent all the citizens, no just the ones who make campaign contributions, that the police have a responsibility serve and protect all the people, not just the ones in nice neighborhoods. I meant the corporations like GM has a responsibility to clean up the mess they leave behind. When you are born into a fatherless family living on welfare in a run down slum, filled with crack sellers and abandoned buildings, and you are sent to a poor school where you only learn that the cops are your enemy and that “whitey” is out to get you , and then the so-called black leaders fill your head with crap about how you are oppressed and the world owes you’re a free ride, just when do you expect that kid to rise up above it all and take control of his life? Where does this sudden faith in the system come from?
Welfare has not solved the problem, and neither has complaining about these lazy people that refuse to
Accept responsibility for themselves. But unless you have gone into these neighborhoods and seen up close just what kind of environment these kids are brought into, I don’t think you are qualified to pass judgment.
I didn’t used to believe this until I had seen it many time, and then I had to ask myself, just how do you get out of this hell hole? Why should people born in this world think like you and I do? They have a whole different perspective on reality than we do.
No, I don’t suggest we throw more tax money at the problem. That won’t help, and I don’t have the answer. But I do know that these people are Americans, and these streets that are not safe to walk are part of America, and that as a nation, we throw money away on stupid worthless causes, like the UN for one.
Guess how much money is owed NYC just in traffic tickets by the diplomats that come here to leech off our good fortune? Egypt – $1.7 million, Kuwait - $1.2 million, Nigeria - $1.2 million, ….. Kuwait????
Isn’t that that little insignificant country of cowards and weaklings that we had to go rescue from Iraq a few years ago? Isn’t that the scum-puddle of camel dung that had to have us come over and put out the oil well fires for them? While their leaders HID like scared school-children in London’s posh hotels? And they don’t have the decency to respect New York when they come here like they actually have any right to have any say in world affairs. And scoff our laws when we catch them at it? How about this : in my opinion, we should own Kuwait and all its oil. We should occupy it and take the oil. And use the money we save to fix our own problems here at home, in a real country. The Kuwaitis can go to hell. How many worthless nations of losers do we sent our tax dollars to in the form of foreign aid? How much money did Bush waste entertaining that terrorist-harboring b*st*rd from sorry-arabia? Let’s stop throwing our money away on the world of losers that hate us anyway and take care of our own. Maybe we can make a real difference in our own streets and schools. Once we fix our own broken cities and really allow people to be born with a chance, then we can hold them responsible for their choices. At any rate. we would at least be spending the money at home and I would rather invest it here than give one cent to the worthless nations of the “old world.” It is easy to wave flags and talk about what a great country this is, but I wouldn’t use the word great until every street in America is safe to walk on, and every school in America is properly staffed and providing a quality education to every student. Until that day, we have work to do.

[so.cal.fan]

I'd vote for you Tom, if you ran for a public office.

PS:
Didn't POPEYE used to say "I Yam what I Yam and That's all that I YAM?

I like that. Good affirmation!:)

[Rick]

Tom,

I've been told that comparing Gary, Indiana with Chicago is another eye-opener.