Claimer carries 148 at Thistle

[turfeyejoe]

Did anybody else happen to notice the chart of Sunday's 9th race at Thistledowns? In a name-your-claiming-price race primarily aimed at $3,500 claimers going 4 1/2 furlongs, the infamous Burton K. Sipp entered Magoo's Magic for $12,500 ... resulting in a weight impost of 148 pounds. Remarkably, Sipp accepted the weight and the public sent off Magoo's Magic at 1-2 .. where he didn't run a step and finished last.

Out of curiousity, I did a bit of research on great horses of the past who ran well while carrying enormous amounts of weight. Two stood out:

Roseben raced 29 times carrying 140 or more, including wins at 144, 146, and 147. He was 0 for 4 toting 148 and finished second in one start at 150.

The all-time achievement must be the 19th century European runner Kincsem. A FILLY, she carried 143 or more in 11 of 15 races during her 4yo season in 1878 and six times raced with as much as 150 lbs.
At 5, she carried as much as 168 pounds.
Amazingly, she retired with a perfect 54 for 54 record!!!

[Dave]

can I ask you a question --- why is it that those 126 lbs carried by a 1000 lb horse are no big deal, but the extra 20, or whatever, crush the horse?

I'm not saying 20 lbs won't make them run any slower, but it's just relative to the weight carried by the other horses.
frankly, they should probably add 10 lbs across the board to the whole assignment system.

how much are the hurdlers toting?
and they have to jump.

[bigmack]

frankly, they should probably add 10 lbs across the board to the whole assignment system.
Frankly, for what?

[Dave]

are you serious?


I'm sure you've probably figured it out since you posted that, but why would you object?

[bigmack]

are you serious?
yes. i'm serious - very.

[GeTydOn]

can I ask you a question --- why is it that those 126 lbs carried by a 1000 lb horse are no big deal, but the extra 20, or whatever, crush the horse?

I'm not saying 20 lbs won't make them run any slower, but it's just relative to the weight carried by the other horses.
frankly, they should probably add 10 lbs across the board to the whole assignment system.

how much are the hurdlers toting?
and they have to jump.

You can't be serious! Hurdlers?! They go so damn slow! Big deal they're jumping. Add 10 pounds across the board. What's that supposed to do? Help the jockeys? As if their wouldn't be others struggling with weight now on the verge of making it if the scale allowed for 10 more pounds. Ain't scales of wieights been on the rise around the country. By a couple of pounds.

And who ever said 126 is no big deal. Try getting a trainer of a top caliber horse to run when assigned 126. It aint happening.

[PaceAdvantage]

You can't be serious! Hurdlers?! They go so damn slow!

What GTO said.....

[Suff]

What GTO said.....

And they fall down go boom boom.......all the damn time! Talk about cruelty to animals.... Remember two years ago at Saratoga... In a 9 horse field... 3 finished.

Burton Sipp......funny guy.

[Suff]

And who ever said 126 is no big deal. Try getting a trainer of a top caliber horse to run when assigned 126. It aint happening.

Skip Away was mowing them down at 130 for a while.

[Dave]

yes --- so the jockeys wouldn't have to go on the nicole ritchie diet to reach the size of bobblehead dolls.

don't tell me --- evolution tells you we shouldn't do this?

[bigmack]

yes --- so the jockeys wouldn't have to go on the nicole ritchie diet to reach the size of bobblehead dolls.
don't tell me --- evolution tells you we shouldn't do this?
Ohhhh - Now I get it.
Gather round the "Dave" campfire - It's time for a little schoolin'

[Dave]

And who ever said 126 is no big deal. Try getting a trainer of a top caliber horse to run when assigned 126. It aint happening.



:lol::lol::lol:

you mean like the derby?

going fwd you might want to read the thread you are replying to, call that a little schoolin' if you need to.

[pressman]

high weight horses when more then their fare share of races run(high I.V.)
adding ten pounds to the back of a thoroughbred is like adding a feather to the shoulder of a human the only ones really get upset are the trainers they are all paranoid the racing secretary is out to get them NOT! I believe Ainslie said in one of his books"weight is suppose to bring them together,but it doesnt"

[Dave]

yeah, that debate will probably never end, but I don't see any reason not to just drop +10 on them across the board.
they run w/more in europe, and carry it farther.
I don't see them all dropping like flies before they make it to the finish in the fall highweight handicap.

I'd guess they don't want to because people tend to get stuck in their ways, and hate to change tradition -- plus, maybe they'd rather get the faster times because they think that's more exciting for the fans.

I think weight does make a difference, but the ones they're trying to slow down are often much better than the extra length or 2 they lose to the rest of the field via the handicaps.

[bigmack]

yeah, that debate will probably never end, but I don't see any reason not to just drop +10 on them across the board.
I didn't know the debate started and I don't see any reason to not keep weight as it has been for a spell.

Don't tell me you're a Frito Lay rep and sales in the vending machines of the jockeys locker room is down and this is a veiled attempt to up chip movement.

[Dave]

I didn't know the debate started


well, I guess if you didn't hear about it, it doesn't exist.

[PaceAdvantage]

yes --- so the jockeys wouldn't have to go on the nicole ritchie diet to reach the size of bobblehead dolls.

don't tell me --- evolution tells you we shouldn't do this?

So we raise the weights across the board, and another subset of folks now attempt to become jockeys by going on the nicole ritchie diet, right Dave? Every time you raise the weights, another group will then be on the "fringe" and will struggle to make weight....it will never end, no matter how high you go....

It's a nice thought in theory, but in practice, it won't solve a thing, and may even make things worse for the horse. In fact, the horse might need that full two weeks rest after all, if we raise the weights....

[toetoe]

Speaking of the Hungarian wonderhorse, Kincsem, she ran in a 3-horse race (in England, maybe?) and, as she was a new face with "only" a 20-for-20 record, or whatever, she went off at some absurdly long price ... in a THREE-HORSE RACE! :faint:

[sealord]

Personally, I think the sport would be better off if we raised the jockey scales. Instead of just a small percentage of atheletes capable of low weights, we would invite a higher number of atheletes (jockeys) to compete. I feel more jockeys equal more competition which equal greater competitors which means better jockeys! In other words, right now only a few select people in this world can become jockeys. This is primarily due to a genetic 'gift' which is smallness. So we are overlooking fantastic and gifted individuals to ride our horses, simply because they are ten pounds too heavy.

One more view: Should we limit the amount an NFL linebacker can weigh? Most certainly not! Should we limit the amount a jockey should weigh? Yes, for the sake of the animal. The common thread betweent the two is that people and atheletes are bigger now than yesteryear and to hinder a natural weight increase is to hinder racing. In one hundred years will we still have these scales???
The integrity of this game would remain and/or increase if we had a larger group of jockeys to choose from.

[betovernetcapper]

In the race in question the 148l lb horse was part of an entry and his entrymate carried 124 and also didn't run well. Maybe it's not the weight but the trainer.

[Suff]

yeah, that debate will probably never end, but I don't see any reason not to just drop +10 on them across the board.
they run w/more in europe, and carry it farther.
I don't see them all dropping like flies before they make it to the finish in the fall highweight handicap.

I'd guess they don't want to because people tend to get stuck in their ways, and hate to change tradition -- plus, maybe they'd rather get the faster times because they think that's more exciting for the fans.

I think weight does make a difference, but the ones they're trying to slow down are often much better than the extra length or 2 they lose to the rest of the field via the handicaps.

I agree.

For health sakes. Its just unnatural for a grown man....who is over 5 foot five to weigh 120 pounds. Man has gotten much bigger. It's very noticeable when you go into some of the buildings around here. In the old statehouse.. The doorways, the ceilings,...virtually everything was built to accommodate a smaller man. The reality of it is... people are bigger.

Some of these Jockeys... munja.minga!!...they look sick! On the white guys they look emaciated....and their skin is almost transparent....

Plus... I think people already said,,, it'll create a larger pool of talent to draw on.

[kenwoodallpromos]

http://weightlossinternational.com/newsletter/average-weight-chart.html

[Ponyplayr]

I agree.

For health sakes. Its just unnatural for a grown man....who is over 5 foot five to weigh 120 pounds. Man has gotten much bigger. It's very noticeable when you go into some of the buildings around here. In the old statehouse.. The doorways, the ceilings,...virtually everything was built to accommodate a smaller man. The reality of it is... people are bigger.

Some of these Jockeys... munja.minga!!...they look sick! On the white guys they look emaciated....and their skin is almost transparent....

Plus... I think people already said,,, it'll create a larger pool of talent to draw on.
I have all the confidence in the world that the good Reverend Jesse will resolve all these issues. There will be justice and equality for all.

For a price to be determined at a later date.

[PaceAdvantage]

I agree.

For health sakes. Its just unnatural for a grown man....who is over 5 foot five to weigh 120 pounds.

You folks who champion this cause seem to be ignoring the obvious question:

How will raising the weights stop a new group of taller folks (who now become the "fringe") from trying to starve themselves down to this new "improved" weight level?

You'll have the same damn problem all over again, will you not? It doesn't really matter how high you raise the minimum weight, there will always be people living on the edge, killing themselves to meet the requirement.

[sealord]

You folks who champion this cause seem to be ignoring the obvious question:

How will raising the weights stop a new group of taller folks (who now become the "fringe") from trying to starve themselves down to this new "improved" weight level?

You'll have the same damn problem all over again, will you not? It doesn't really matter how high you raise the minimum weight, there will always be people living on the edge, killing themselves to meet the requirement.

Speaking for myself only, I personally don't object to grown men living on the edge and putting themselves in harm's way. I object no less to those crazy guys crab fishing off the Alaskan coast then I do to jockeys starving themselves. Noone's holding a gun to their heads and making them go to work, much less flip or use the hot box. The only people needing to champion the jockey's cause are the jockeys. I'm supporting a scale increase simply because people are getting bigger and it's common sense.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm supporting a scale increase simply because people are getting bigger and it's common sense.

You write as if nobody is able to meet the weight requirements without resorting to drastic measures. This is simply not true.

Raising the weights might ease the burden for our current crop of jocks, but obviously, a new group will enter the scene and start this vicious cycle all over again, so you haven't solved the problem.

Plus, you are putting additional burden on the horse by raising the weights, no matter how insignificant....it's still more weight.....

[Dave]

yeah well if it's so insignificant to the horse, I don't think it's out of line to give significant help to the current group of riders.
if some 300 pound lardass kills himself trying to make weight -- tough crap.
your reasoning is if we can't accomodate everyone then screw them all?
+10 lbs would make a concrete positive difference to an existing group of current riders, you just said it was insignificant to the horses, and screw your imaginary lardasses.

[bigmack]

if some 300 pound lardass kills himself trying to make weight -- tough crap.
Make weight for what?

[PaceAdvantage]

yeah well if it's so insignificant to the horse, I don't think it's out of line to give significant help to the current group of riders.
if some 300 pound lardass kills himself trying to make weight -- tough crap.
your reasoning is if we can't accomodate everyone then screw them all?
+10 lbs would make a concrete positive difference to an existing group of current riders, you just said it was insignificant to the horses, and screw your
imaginary lardasses.

Sorry, you're not making any sense. Your goal is to eliminate or significantly reduce the number of jockeys abusing their bodies in order to make weight. Raising the minimums will not solve this problem, it will simply shift the problem to another group of people.

Whether it's the "current group of riders" or some other group, I fail to see the difference. They are all human beings, are they not?

[Suff]

Sorry, you're not making any sense. Your goal is to eliminate or significantly reduce the number of jockeys abusing their bodies in order to make weight. Raising the minimums will not solve this problem, it will simply shift the problem to another group of people.

Whether it's the "current group of riders" or some other group, I fail to see the difference. They are all human beings, are they not?

The minimum threshold... that is the difference.:confused:

[Suff]

Sorry, you're not making any sense. Your goal is to eliminate or significantly reduce the number of jockeys abusing their bodies in order to make weight. Raising the minimums will not solve this problem, it will simply shift the problem to another group of people.

?

Your hanging your hat on this entire premise. And you are correct. Raise the minimum to 140 and people that weigh 160 will die trying to make 140.

That isn't the issue. That as you correctly point out is what will happen.

The premise of my point is that People are bigger, and we need to raise the minimum threshold in recognition of that fact. Also, I think a man 5 foot three at 140 pounds , trying to make 130, is not quite as dangerous as a man at 130 trying to make 110. Bone structure and so on.

[turfeyejoe]

Betovernetcapper hit the nail on the head with his remark about the trainer. Burton Sipp is the most notorious trainer in America. I looked up an article written about him in the Boston Globe and it said during his 30-year-career, he has 74 violations. He was once banned from the sport for NINE YEARS. He's still permanently barred in New Jersey and was tossed out of Pennsylvania. Several times, he's been caught with the equivalent of cruelty to animals (i.e. killing horses to collect on insurance), including once when he owned a small zoo during the time he was banned from racing. It's unbelievable he's even permitted to have a trainer's license.

[PaceAdvantage]

The premise of my point is that People are bigger, and we need to raise the minimum threshold in recognition of that fact. Also, I think a man 5 foot three at 140 pounds , trying to make 130, is not quite as dangerous as a man at 130 trying to make 110. Bone structure and so on.

Point taken....still not sure what problem we are trying to solve here....

[Suff]

Betovernetcapper hit the nail on the head with his remark about the trainer. Burton Sipp is the most notorious trainer in America. I looked up an article written about him in the Boston Globe and it said during his 30-year-career, he has 74 violations. .

Burton found one of his long time guys hanging from a rope in the barn early this morning.

Ralph, a fellow I knew pretty well. Good guy. Liked his tea. Could'nt shake his demons.

Story went that he was drinking with some mexicans in one of the tack rooms, stood up, announced he was going to go hang himself, and went and did it.

Evidently no one took him serious.

[GeTydOn]

:lol::lol::lol:

you mean like the derby?

going fwd you might want to read the thread you are replying to, call that a little schoolin' if you need to.

Now that's just a dumb reply. The Kentucky Derby is THE RACE everyone wants to win. And EVERYONE carries 126. Unless its a filly. Prestige of the Derby outweighs the weight issue. Duh!

And the NFL arguement mentioned by whoever is a lame arguement. Maybe most sports don't have weight requirements but some do. In JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL a buddy of mine would go all day wrapped in plastic garbage bags to make weight for his match in the afternoon!!

And back to the NFL. You can't honestly believe certain positions could be played at whatever weight a guy was. A quarterback could never be a lardass at 400 lbs. just like a linemen could never be some skinny ass of 160.

[JohnNUtah]

Lost a couple of friends to suicide lately. Hate to hear of something like this latest. Really makes me want to stick around, but wondering what the heck made them go over the breaking point. This guy sounds like he was hooked up in a world of crap with that trainer and the history and current allegations.

Still just sad deal, please keep us updated if you learn more details.

[Dave]

Now that's just a dumb reply. The Kentucky Derby is THE RACE everyone wants to win. And EVERYONE carries 126. Unless its a filly. Prestige of the Derby outweighs the weight issue. Duh!




ahahahahahahahahahahaha.....!!!!!

you get some characters on this board.
"And EVERYONE carries 126" <<< at least you picked up on this much.
if you don't like THE derby, you can sub any derby in there.

[Dave]

also, I guess I have to point out the obvious that just because we add 10 to the handicap scale doesn't mean you're forced to add 10 to all the derbies, or any race where they all carry the even 126.

[Suff]

Lost a couple of friends to suicide lately. Hate to hear of something like this latest. Really makes me want to stick around, but wondering what the heck made them go over the breaking point. This guy sounds like he was hooked up in a world of crap with that trainer and the history and current allegations.

Still just sad deal, please keep us updated if you learn more details.

I don't think Sipp was player in his demise, other than he was his employer.

It was weird... I worked yesterday and had some business in East Boston around 2:00 o'clock. So I shot into Suffolk Downs to bet a few races and say hello. I was sitting with a group of Jockey agents when the call came in.

On my way back to the office I was thinking about how they were talking about Burton Sipp in this thread, and maybe I'll post about it?

It is kind of a weird thing. In a way it is far to serious an issue to talk about when we talk about Horse racing here. At the same time, I certainly didnt think starting a thread about it was called for or appropriate.

I didnt give it all that much thought, but what prompted me to post it was more along of the lines of the thread we had a few weeks ago about the living conditions of the backside.

I was angry when I recalled people who took the attitude of "let them pound sand" , in reference to providing more for poor people who work in the shadows of the game.

Ralph was slow. Not visibly, or noticeably, but when you got to know him you could see it. Low IQ, a very simple kind of guy. Pleasant as a peach though, and very agreeable. Easy to talk to, and enjoyable to know. But he was slow in that he would never exert himself to be a groom, or asst trainer. Even though he performed those functions everyday. He had good hands on a horse.

He was getting up there near 60. He'd been living in Tack rooms for a long time, while making pennies. Everyday was a grind. He lacked the ability to go further. He got wore out is my guess.

I didnt know him all that well. I was friendly with him, and knew him peripherally. . I had a few drinks with him here and there. Not a close friend by any stretch.

In my mind, society needs do more for people in his spot. But that is for off topic. Good guy.......all gone. That's that.