Is this board about helping everyone win?

[RaceIsClosed]

How can a board like this help the readers if those with something of value want to protect or sell it?

I think this is a very legitimate question.

[PaceAdvantage]

I think this is a very legitimate question.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, however, there is no shortage of posts on here from people who claim that this board has helped them in their learning process as it applies to horse racing and handicapping.

Heck, here's one from only a scant few hours ago:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=288724#post288724

Hi Folks, I started a thread last week basically on what I perceived as some inaccuracies in the book "Modern Pace Handicapping - Second Edition" by Tom Brohamer. I have received MANY excellent pieces of advice and for that I thank you all!

I would think by now that the answer to your question is rather obvious. Perhaps I am in error.....

[bigmack]

How can a board like this help the readers if those with something of value want to protect or sell it?

I think this is a very legitimate question.
I haven't been able to find much in the way of examples for what you're talking about. I'm fairly new around these parts but I've found that many go out of their way to be helpful to others particularly those that are new to the game and perhaps aren't set in their ways as much as the more experienced player.

Where are you finding these flagrant examples of people hawking or protecting their wares?

[losealot]

First let me refine that a bit. I believe that if one is helped to lose LESS, that's a big plus.

Second, besides trading ideas and concepts, this board gives us many nuggets we won't find in books or magazine articles.

There are handicappers on this forum who have spent a great deal of time and money developing HUGE databases. Their generosity far exceeds any expectations I had. Time after time, I've seen these persons run someone's query through their database for FREE. Often, the results may be disappointing or deflating to the questioner but I find it very helpful to know that particular query resulted in losses greater than the take. Or losses that are less than the take...that's like getting a rebate!

Another thing you rarely find in an outdated book or article: up-to-the-minute links to articles and sites that can be very helpful. I love these links! Thank you, thank you!

[Dave]

How can a board like this help the readers if those with something of value want to protect or sell it?

I think this is a very legitimate question.


whatever -- it's still entertaining.

[kenwoodallpromos]

How can a board like this help the readers if those with something of value want to protect or sell it?

I think this is a very legitimate question.
_______________________
My general understanding is that what is for sale is specific ratings or numbers, not angles or betting principals.
CJ sells info to a limited number of customers, but posts much else in regards to handicapping. And on his website prior to the 2005 Kentucky Derby for free he gave out info on the runners that included the fact fact thet Giacomo had the highest ROI of anyone in the 2005 Derby! He gave out the winner if you used that information!!

[KingChas]

How can a board like this help the readers if those with something of value want to protect or sell it?



A lot of people here have put alot of work into their methods.You have to earn the knowledge.Nothing is free.I enjoy scanning PA's search bar (Archives).I add a little (salt & pepper) bit of everyones approaches to my methods=everyday. ;)

[RaceIsClosed]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, however, there is no shortage of posts on here from people who claim that this board has helped them in their learning process as it applies to horse racing and handicapping.

Heck, here's one from only a scant few hours ago:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=288724#post288724



I would think by now that the answer to your question is rather obvious. Perhaps I am in error.....

That's an anecdote, however, by someone who FEELS that he's improved becuase of what he read here. Good feelings are one thing, winning horses and proftis quite another.

[RaceIsClosed]

I haven't been able to find much in the way of examples for what you're talking about. I'm fairly new around these parts but I've found that many go out of their way to be helpful to others particularly those that are new to the game and perhaps aren't set in their ways as much as the more experienced player.

Where are you finding these flagrant examples of people hawking or protecting their wares?

Okay, here are some questions:

1. Can someone please give me five handicapping angles which show a flat-bet profit without my having to do any thinking? (every professional has these)

2. Can someone please give me five trainer angles which show a flat-bet profit without my having to do any thinking? (every professional has these as well)

3. How do you make a value line to compare against the morning line?

4. How do you select a paceline?

5. How does CJ make his figures and why can't I get a copy of the software he uses?

6. Anyone here want to fess up to any fixed races or races where the stable had inside knowledge and was popping the horse at a price?

7. Please explain, in lengths, the value of a) lasix; b) MSW-to-MCL; c) turf to dirt; d) strong barn to weak barn; e) track A to track B (please include a list of every North American track).

8. Someone who has one, please post a winning pace handicapping formula that will allow me to make the most accurate pace figures possible.

Should I go on? If we were all suddenly injected with truth serum, every one of the above questions would be answered.

Here's one more: please tell me which handicappers to follow, going forward, on this board. It's not useful to see who's been winning and say "follow them" because someone will always be on a hot streak.

Btw, if someone has a commercial product and it's banned unless they buy advertising, the producer of that product has no reason to share *anything* with the public.

Oh, and you're all welcome for my Bernardini pick at 12-1 while I'm at it.

[RaceIsClosed]

A lot of people here have put alot of work into their methods.You have to earn the knowledge.Nothing is free.I enjoy scanning PA's search bar (Archives).I add a little (salt & pepper) bit of everyones approaches to my methods=everyday. ;)

Okay, so where is something I can use to make money that is quantifiable? (i.e., can be attributed to what I learn here).

"This board is helpful" may feel good to say, but it doesn't rise to the level of professional horseplaying. We have pros here, we're supposed to share information, yet it seems the pros aren't parting with much.

So again I ask, where is the QUANTIFIABLE path to profit from this amazingly helpful board? If there isn't one, and there are so many professionals here, how can one NOT say that stuff is being withheld?

You know how much I wanted to spill the beans about speed on the turf and why it folds? If I did that, however, I'd be killing one angle that nets me about $1.15 for $1.00 bet on average, and another that pushes $1.50, yet I'm supposed to "help the fellow man." Then, if I dare to cash in on any rep I might build with such a release, I'd be banned on the grounds that it would be marketing?

Okay, fine. I won't publish squat. I'll rely on this "great" board to help me build a winning edge.

Please tell me where to go to do this on this board.

[KingChas]

You know how much I wanted to spill the beans about speed on the turf and why it folds? If I did that, however, I'd be killing one angle that nets me about $1.15 for $1.00 bet on average, and another that pushes $1.50, yet I'm supposed to "help the fellow man." Then, if I dare to cash in on any rep I might build with such a release, I'd be banned on the grounds that it would be marketing?



Please tell me where to go to do this on this board.

Guess you just answered your own question. :confused:

Are you looking for "The Magic Black Box"?......Me Too :D

[blind squirrel]

Can someone please give me five handicapping angles which show a flat-bet profit without my having to do any thinking? (every professional has these)

2. Can someone please give me five trainer angles which show a flat-bet profit without my having to do any thinking? (every professional has these as well)





if you are looking for a game without "thinking",may i suggest
slots!

[KingChas]

One of the main problems with horseplayers,as truly seen here lately,is "EGO" .Yes in this sport you need that.(winning mentallity).The problem with most posters is "MY way or the highway mentallity".

Think people;If you are consistantly picking winners your way does it really matter what or whos approach you use?

If you do not see things their way,or post a new angle or whatever.You are sometimes abused with "prove it,show me...post winners,why?Take a form try this guys new method on paper for a while without wagering it and figure it out for yourself.

I have to laugh at this boards show me attitude to prove who you are.

I didn't join PA to become a professional tout. :cool:

[bigmack]

Okay, here are some questions:

1. Can someone please give me five handicapping angles which show a flat-bet profit without my having to do any thinking? (every professional has these)

2. Can someone please give me five trainer angles which show a flat-bet profit without my having to do any thinking? (every professional has these as well)

3. How do you make a value line to compare against the morning line?

4. How do you select a paceline?

5. How does CJ make his figures and why can't I get a copy of the software he uses?

6. Anyone here want to fess up to any fixed races or races where the stable had inside knowledge and was popping the horse at a price?

7. Please explain, in lengths, the value of a) lasix; b) MSW-to-MCL; c) turf to dirt; d) strong barn to weak barn; e) track A to track B (please include a list of every North American track).

8. Someone who has one, please post a winning pace handicapping formula that will allow me to make the most accurate pace figures possible.

Should I go on? If we were all suddenly injected with truth serum, every one of the above questions would be answered.

Here's one more: please tell me which handicappers to follow, going forward, on this board. It's not useful to see who's been winning and say "follow them" because someone will always be on a hot streak.

Btw, if someone has a commercial product and it's banned unless they buy advertising, the producer of that product has no reason to share *anything* with the public.

Oh, and you're all welcome for my Bernardini pick at 12-1 while I'm at it.
And if anybody calls you Francis you'll kill em - right?

Lighten up Francis.

[Buckeye]

I can answer that, no this board is NOT about helping everbody to win.

Everybody can't win.

[KingChas]

Stop over the house.Drink my beer.Eat my food.Take my.... :eek: .When I am done handicapping in a couple hours.I will drive you to the track pay your way in and split my winnings with you!
It's your lucky day.

:liar: .. :liar: .. :liar:

[Tom]

I think what you are looking for is a tip sheet.

What have YOU contributed to anyone so far?
You attack Overlay when he tries to share, then start this and make a list of what people owe you?
Come on, man - learn to handciap or buy tip sheets.

This is one of the best sites to learn things and share idea. If you haven't figured that out, slots just might be a better game for you.

[Handiman]

I honestly had to laugh when I first started to read this thread and continued through it. The only thing It seemed not mentioned was 'Will someone sleep with my wife so I can have a child'.

This board has helped alot of people. There are generous folks everywhere you look. But, to see them and find them, you must, yourself, be one in kind. Help comes in all sorts of forms.

I have several times offered to different members to write software for free based on their requirements or design, when they couldn't find what they wanted commercially. I have in fact written a few programs.

In turn I have recieved some nice offers and some great suggestions. Knowledge is abundant here. But if you happen to be a horse who will not drink, then it doesn't matter if we drag your butt to the waterhole.

Handi

[Tom]

Oh, and you're all welcome for my Bernardini pick at 12-1 while I'm at it.

1. How did you poick him?
2. What rules did you follow, and what is the roi of doing this every race?
3. What was your sample size for validating this method of selection?
4. Did Borther Derek bounce, and if so, why?
5. Are you saying if I follow your guidelines I will make money every time?
6. Was you pick at 12-1 a reson to follow you from now on or are you on a streak?


See how you sound?

[gregrph]

That's an anecdote, however, by someone who FEELS that he's improved becuase of what he read here. Good feelings are one thing, winning horses and proftis quite another.

I posted the message that PA refered to in his post. Ever since I was a young kid (8-9), I would go to Saratoga a couple of times a year with my grandmother. I would look at the program, she would make my bets and we had fun. Win a little, loose a little, it was a great day. Each year I tried to learn a little more. Who were the good jockey's, what were the winning post positions, etc. Everything I tried to learn on my own. My first book that I bought was "Picking Winners" by Andrew Beyer. I learned about speed,etc. Then I bought "Dr. Z's Beat The Race Track" and DEVOURED that book. It makes so much sense to me, especially for casual play.

About a year ago I found this message board and read as much as I could. I realized that there were ways to make smatter betting choices to win larger amounts of money with relatively smaller risk of loseing. I had never heard of pace handicapping before and wanted to read up on it. I bought the book "Modern Pace Handicapping" for father's day and have read through it once. I'm on the second read (slower, and more carefully) and have had some initial concerns.

The response to my initial post was overwhelming. I received much good advice from the follks here that I am still going through. I am STUDYING this book. I have learned that I need to learn some more basics but with the help of the folks here, it's been pleasant. I have not made any bets since the Belmont, and no, my profits have not increased beacuse of anything on this forum.

I wish to gain additional knowledge so that I can make my own handicapping choices. When I can do it manually with a calculator and pencil and paper and I understand the concepts well enough to make good betting choices, then I will look into a computer program to help. I expect that to be sometime in the future, not now. I also expect that the use of a computer program will have a steep learning curve but with the basic background knowledge, it shouldn't be too difficult.

Off to read/study concepts some more!
GReg

[Suff]

I don't come to Pace advantage to profit. Horse racing is my hobby. I have my days, weeks, months and years. But it's a net loser. I have no illusions otherwise.....


and If I ever wanted to make money on one of my hobbies, Horse racing would be 2nd or 3rd on my list.

I'll tell you what has quickly become very common on Pace Advantage....

People telling the crowd about winners they had after the fact. It's commonly referred to as Red Boarding. And it doesnt matter if you had a sign in front of your house giving away the winner.........it wasn't here.

It's a horse racing community, and a little sharing of one's good fortune is welcome and appreciated... but lately its just people tossing up after the fact winners for glory........or giggles?.

Like many people have said... I learn enough so my hobby cost me less. Like Golfing, it is an expensive hobby... but when you learn the in's and outs, and where the deals are for equipment, and where good golf for lower greens fee's is available....its allows you to Golf better and more often.

Aspiring to golf for free or a profit is not a predominate thought.

[Prado Can Ride]

Okay, here are some questions:

1. Can someone please give me five handicapping angles which show a flat-bet profit without my having to do any thinking? (every professional has these)

2. Can someone please give me five trainer angles which show a flat-bet profit without my having to do any thinking? (every professional has these as well)

3. How do you make a value line to compare against the morning line?

4. How do you select a paceline?

5. How does CJ make his figures and why can't I get a copy of the software he uses?

6. Anyone here want to fess up to any fixed races or races where the stable had inside knowledge and was popping the horse at a price?

7. Please explain, in lengths, the value of a) lasix; b) MSW-to-MCL; c) turf to dirt; d) strong barn to weak barn; e) track A to track B (please include a list of every North American track).

8. Someone who has one, please post a winning pace handicapping formula that will allow me to make the most accurate pace figures possible.

Should I go on? If we were all suddenly injected with truth serum, every one of the above questions would be answered.

Here's one more: please tell me which handicappers to follow, going forward, on this board. It's not useful to see who's been winning and say "follow them" because someone will always be on a hot streak.

Btw, if someone has a commercial product and it's banned unless they buy advertising, the producer of that product has no reason to share *anything* with the public.

Oh, and you're all welcome for my Bernardini pick at 12-1 while I'm at it.

Buddy, Your outta Line on this one

[46zilzal]

Everyone who wagers on races does so after LONG reviews of their angles. Everyone who wagers on horse races KNOWS that what works this time will NOT work the next three times. THAT IS THE WAY IT IS.

It is by review of methods that we discover angles that work. THEY DO NOT WORK ALL THE TIME, so rather than clutter the board with the many times they do not work (and therefore, in that instance, a rather worthless entry), one has the enter the angle for review AFTER it works or otherwise the insight on that angle is NEVER substantiated.

Take the EGO out of the educational entry and everyone benefits from a perspective that can be both successful and might open one's perspective of looking a something a different way.

Some folks are not touts.

[bigmack]

About a year ago I found this message board and read as much as I could. I realized that there were ways to make smatter betting choices to win larger amounts of money with relatively smaller risk of loseing. I had never heard of pace handicapping before and wanted to read up on it. I bought the book "Modern Pace Handicapping" for father's day and have read through it once. I'm on the second read (slower, and more carefully) and have had some initial concerns.

The response to my initial post was overwhelming. I received much good advice from the follks here that I am still going through. I am STUDYING this book. I have learned that I need to learn some more basics but with the help of the folks here, it's been pleasant. I have not made any bets since the Belmont, and no, my profits have not increased beacuse of anything on this forum.

I wish to gain additional knowledge so that I can make my own handicapping choices. When I can do it manually with a calculator and pencil and paper and I understand the concepts well enough to make good betting choices, then I will look into a computer program to help. I expect that to be sometime in the future, not now. I also expect that the use of a computer program will have a steep learning curve but with the basic background knowledge, it shouldn't be too difficult.

Off to read/study concepts some more!
GReg
Anyone worth his salt in this game knows that you have to work your ass off to be good at it. The learning curve is grand and yet if you keep at it and stay on top of stuff in time (sometimes a long time) you'll be good enough to be profitable on a regular basis.

GReg has all the indications of someone who will do quite well at the game as he's willing to arduously do his homework and someday reap the rewards.

RaceisClosed has the gall to run around demanding info from people as if he deserves the "short cut".

Newsbreak ClosedRace - there ain't no short cuts. Roll up your sleaves and get to work.

[46zilzal]

Newsbreak ClosedRace - there ain't no short cuts. Roll up your sleaves and get to work.
EXACTLY

[kenwoodallpromos]

You really should by the form- your + TRAINER ANGLES are just below the workout line.
As to most accurate (dirt and turf sprints) PACE LINE, use final times in sprints, 2nd call in routes and figure the losers by using 6 1/2 lengths per second instead of 5 lengths per second. For the time period in routes between 2nd call and finish, use 8 lengths per second.
As to VALUE LINE, the easiest thing to do is estimate your own % probability of your horse winning minus 5%, then use a calculator to check the tote $$ on your horse vs the total pool. If you figure your horse's chances at 25% use 20%; if the tote board says less than 2% of the total pool is on your horse, it is a value bet.

[Free Bird]

I am happy to discuss ang angles/methods that I have found effective. But sometimes it is like the poster wants the key to the vault with no work involved. Like: Tell me the name of software that wins with no work.

[WJ47]

I don't come to Pace advantage to profit. Horse racing is my hobby. I have my days, weeks, months and years. But it's a net loser. I have no illusions otherwise.....


That's how I feel too. I've been playing the horses for almost twenty years. I've had a few good years earlier on, where I made a small profit by hitting 2 pick 6 payoffs (both relatively small ones though, $4500 and $6000). Years ago, before I had children, I could spend 8 or 10 hours handicapping a card. Now I'm not nearly so thorough.

But I love the horse races. I see no difference in me blowing $50 or $75 a week playing the horses, like people who go to the casino and blow it on the slots. My mother and sister love the slots, they go every week and they don't care if they lose their $100. Thats their entertainment. I don't like the slots (they give me a headache!), so instead, I replenish my Brisbet account when I'm low.

I'd love it if I could figure out the universal secret, hit some huge pick 6 wins and retire! I think I know the secret to winning, but I really enjoy the action of playing multiple horses. I believe the secret is to stay out of races that you know are too hard, don't try to beat legitimate favorites, and watch replays or use the charts to find horses that performed great despite trouble. I just don't have the time now to do all that stuff, and I can't seem to keep my money out of races where I know I shouldn't be betting. LOL, I love to try to beat the 1/9 favorite. I can't remember the last time I beat one! It's probably never happened. :lol: But I bet $2 to win or $1 exactas, win a little, lose a little, and its something fun to look forward to. My brisbet account goes up and down, and eventually I lose it all, then I stick another $50 in there and see how long I can play on it. Like Suff said, its my hobby. I stay within my weekly limits.

I love to get caught up in all the stories about racings and gossip about trainers/riders/horses. When I come to Pace Advantage, its to enjoy the talk of racing and handicapping. There are so many smart handicappers on this board and I've found some tips to increase my playing time.

Who knows what may happen in the future, maybe someday I'll suddenly develop discipline and stop betting every single race I see on TVG and become a consistant winner. Thats a nice thought, but in the meantime, I'm happy just to have fun playing!

[toetoe]

You're all over the map. First you complain that no one gives anything out. Then you say no one in his right mind SHOULD give anything, only sell it. Then my favorite part -- you ask me to tell you where to go. :lol:

These flat-bet no-brainers change all the time. No angle performs at a high profit forever.

As to your sarcastic reference to the greatness of the board, let me just paraphrase Churchill, or Florida Steve or whomever: PA is the worst board ... except for all the others. :ThmbUp:

The refutation of your blast at PA lies in the fact that you haven't been severely attacked here, as you would be on oh, let's see ... Trackhandicapper, Barntowire, About.com forum, maybe even DMTC forum. Even allowing for the intrinsically caustic nature of Internet boards, your post was, well ... flamboyant, shall we say?

[Tom]

Take the EGO out of the educational entry and everyone benefits from a perspective that can be both successful and might open one's perspective of looking a something a different way.

Some folks are not touts.

Agree. You yourself have given me a few things to consider, try, modify....I have picked up some good ideas from you, Richie, Binder and others. I don't care if it's before or after, I like the ideas. Same on CJ's boards - lots of things get thrown around, some hit me and stick.

[Vegas711]

There have been numerous times when I have found posts on this site very helpful, what you are not going to get is a recipe book for winning. What you will get are a number of ideas which will get you to think about new ways of looking at the races, from these new ideas you will be able to CREATE your own ORIGINAL ideas. There is no value in angles that everyone knows about. There is great value in ideas that you uncover on your own.Take what you read and make it your own.


To answer 1 of your questions I use TPR numbers for my Pace numbers.They are very good.

[Tom]

Even widely known "angles" often pay well - third off layoff is opne of the most profitable I have ever used, and I consistently get good odds.
Anyhting that gets you past the last race good figure or win, you have a shot at profits.

[Ponyplayr]

I can answer that, no this board is NOT about helping everbody to win.

Everybody can't win.Hit the nail on the head!!

[Sailwolf]

Hit the nail on the head!!

Not everyone is part of the board; just the intelligent and thinking people.

Althrough, I am sure PA thinks that some people forget their logic aspects some of the time.:lol: :bang:

[RaceIsClosed]

Even widely known "angles" often pay well - third off layoff is opne of the most profitable I have ever used, and I consistently get good odds.
Anyhting that gets you past the last race good figure or win, you have a shot at profits.

What's the total ROI for betting third off a layoff?

[RaceIsClosed]

There have been numerous times when I have found posts on this site very helpful, what you are not going to get is a recipe book for winning. What you will get are a number of ideas which will get you to think about new ways of looking at the races, from these new ideas you will be able to CREATE your own ORIGINAL ideas. There is no value in angles that everyone knows about. There is great value in ideas that you uncover on your own.Take what you read and make it your own.


To answer 1 of your questions I use TPR numbers for my Pace numbers.They are very good.

I just make my own morning line from a personal set of class ratings that I designed.

[Tom]

What's the total ROI for betting third off a layoff?

7.34

[bigmack]

I just make my own morning line from a personal set of class ratings that I designed.
How did you design those - let us know.

[RaceIsClosed]

How did you design those - let us know.

And here we hit the wall: nothing in it for me to publish it, no matter how good it might be. If the goal is to help others, I can do that with selections like Bernardini in the Preakness (who I called a "nuclear weapon" based on this method).

Publish it for nothing, a few sharps will steal it and kill the prices, a few "marketing" types will repackage it and sell it, and the regulars will just flame me. What good is that when idiots get thousands of dollars a month as racing columnists and don't even have to win money to pay their rent? I busted my ass for eight years perfecting this thing. Short of my becoming a columnist for a major outfit, or getting a book deal and big promotion (or even the right to promote it on a site like this), what's the point?

You guys say you want to win, but there is a point where you more want to see no one profiting from posting to message boards, and doing that takes away their incentive to publish. Just a reality check.

The one thing I will share here that won't give away the store is that horseplayers have it all wrong when they try to "specialize" rather than just trying to learn how to handicap literally every type of race there is, at every type of track. You never know when you might be called upon to make a bet, and you get better through practice, not choosing to "specialize" in any one type of race.

[PaceAdvantage]

I would think that most horseplayers don't try and specialize....

[JustRalph]

Oh, and you're all welcome for my Bernardini pick at 12-1 while I'm at it.

Man! How many times are you going to that well? A 12-1 shot is babyshit around here........... there are guys who give out 80 dollar horses on this board...........12-1 on a horse that NBC touted as "Live" for an hour before the race ain't shit to brag about. give me a break.

[bigmack]

I can do that with selections like Bernardini in the Preakness (who I called a "nuclear weapon" based on this method).
Just a reality check.
Is this guy for real with this Bernardini stupidity?

Stop beating around the bush and get to your point. You have something to hawk, you want something, you're upset that you're not getting something, or your medication refill wasn't approved. The answer's in there somewhere.

[RaceIsClosed]

Is this guy for real with this Bernardini stupidity?

Stop beating around the bush and get to your point. You have something to hawk, you want something, you're upset that you're not getting something, or your medication refill wasn't approved. The answer's in there somewhere.

My point is that people come here asking for help, yet put down anyone who would be talented enough to provide it for them either as a know-it-all or someone with something to sell.

Given that, how useful can the boards be?

[bigmack]

My point is that people come here asking for help, yet put down anyone who would be talented enough to provide it for them either as a know-it-all or someone with something to sell.

Given that, how useful can the boards be?
Most rational post you've had in a bit.

May I ask - what was the event that traumatized you to this level on this board?

[RaceIsClosed]

Most rational post you've had in a bit.

May I ask - what was the event that traumatized you to this level on this board?

It's no trauma, just an observation of human nature applied to the internet.

The guy who is honest about being commercial is called a spammer. If he's commercial, he's presumed to be an idiot because of some supposed law that commercial products couldn't possibly teach people how to win (or lose less). A few products, either through reputation or shills, manage to escape this and become "legitimate discussion topics," but for the most part, someone who really wins money here can only drop winners from time to time, without explanation.

I tried to get the "positive ROI club" going a few months ago, and some guys did show a steady profit, but it was obvious that there were few if any professionals in there, because they didn't understand the purpose of the thread, which was to form a de-facto syndicate. The idea was for the amateurs (anyone not paying their bills with winnings) to step aside and let the pros (the ones paying their bills with winnings) to drop some winners and spread the wealth, and/or prove themselves if they wanted.

What did I get? I limited it to 100 plays, one shot. Some people were posting every race, one minute to post, and created so much work for me that my computer literally crashed before I could back up some key data, including the standings. I was 0-for-6 but with some close losses and boxed hits, so Bernardini just got me into positive territory (had the thread lived that long). If the horse was so "obvious" he wouldn't have paid 12-1, and I doubt Barbaro would have beaten him anyway (I had the exacta boxed for a mint and would have had the tri and super if he was second so I didn't exactly make a big score).

I see guys here practically committing suicide with the way they play horses, even if they haven't been destroyed yet. I'd like to correct them, but why make the game harder than it already is for myself? I'm sure many pros who post here feel the same way. It's like the loudmouths want credit for helping without documentation and reproducibility, while those who are willing to be scrutinized just get kicked off for SPAMing if they prove themselves.

I just sat CHAINED to a chair for 11.5 straight hours of horseplaying today (thank you for all the prices, folks). You think I enjoyed that? Sure, it's money, but at that point writing the method seems appealing, and letting other people do the betting. But why give it all out to a place where it'll just make others money and maybe cost me? In that situation, it's not very easy for this or any board to realize its true potential.

I tried one thing already, something that will bump up anyone's ROI if they learn how to use it, which is "racing luck favors the longshot." People know this is true when they talk about why one shouldn't bridgejump, but it applies to literally every race.

Who wouldn't like to be the guy who advances the theory of handicapping? The problem is, when Beyer did it, he was able to capitalize in a way the typical internet guy cannot, so he winds up keeping it to himself and just profiting at the windows while the loudmouths who don't win get props for doing little more than making unverifiable noise.

Now you want something you can use? Don't bet Scott Lake in two-turn races.

[PaceAdvantage]

Perhaps he feels he isn't getting the credit he deserves for "giving the board" Bernardini. He may feel that Barbaro breaking down had nothing to do with Bernardini's victory (and he might be right, but then again, he might not), and probably feels shortchanged that his victory celebration was muted because of Barbaro's injury.

You asked for a traumatic event, and I pulled one out of my arse....

Next....

[bigmack]

I tried one thing already, something that will bump up anyone's ROI if they learn how to use it, which is "racing luck favors the longshot." People know this is true when they talk about why one shouldn't bridgejump, but it applies to literally every race.

Got that everyone. We've just been schooled by RaceClosed.

If you have a PayPal account or anything I'd be willing to pay you for that adroit insight.
If not, bless you for sharing - you're gifted.

Please get back to the board come Preakness next year. I'd love to learn of your selection at that time.

[ranchwest]

Bernardini, his claim to fame. And he gave most or all of it back on exotics.

That's why I didn't bet the Preakness. The odds were too short to risk playing Barbaro and the odds were too long on beating him so I sat home.

You know what? There'll be another race to play tomorrow.

[mainardi]

Finally, I couldn't take it any more. Sometimes it's time to jump in with both feet... so here I go!!!!!!!!!!

It's a nice scam if you pull it off RIC... but most folks on this board are on to you like "white on rice". When bigmack asked you for your "secret", not only did he push your button -- "I want yours, but you can't have mine" -- so blatently ON PURPOSE, we got the added bonus of getting to sit back and watch you take the bait. It was the easiest read I've seen in a while... I just wish that I was online when it happened, so that I could have had some fun as well.

So, here's some advice that you can ignore... find a doctor that will prescribe something that will take you to your "happy place" the next time you want to jump in and use generalities to rip into the entire board. Take a 'lude, dude!

[PaceAdvantage]

After some digging, I've determined that RIC is just another "kicked nick" back for a sequel....no surprise there....

[bigmack]

It was the easiest read I've seen in a while... I just wish that I was online when it happened, so that I could have had some fun as well.
Wow - It came forward like a sprung snake from one of those "open the lid & spring out" novelty cannisters.

[JustRalph]

After some digging, I've determined that RIC is just another "kicked nick" back for a sequel....no surprise there....

I have wondered about that. I suspected Steverino early on.

have a good monday everybody........off to work I go..........

[alysheba88]

If people want to learn and improve there is plenty here. But as with anything many do not want either. Oh they will give lip service but they will remain wedded to their old ways, unwilling to change.

[chickenhead]

this board has been supremely useful in helping me learn to fish. little of what I do handicapping wise has really been talked about directly here very much...but the approach to it, the methodology of "how to become a winner" is all straight from these pages. Dave Schwartz has probably summed it all up clearer than anyone else, but its been stated various ways by many many others here.

Way more useful than just a winning angle to the average losing player. Most losing players will somehow manage to lose money with a winning angle anyway.

[The Judge]

Every professional has five automatic money making angles. Thats funny Mark Cramer whom most people respect can't find ONE. That's is one that will be an automatic play and return money over a period of time and he has tried every angle I've ever heard of and then some. Of course you can't give out the angle because someone wil run the numbers and prove you wrong. I don't need a computer to tell me this.

Don't bet Scott Lake in two turn races that's "old horsey talk" it went out with high button shoes and the garter belt. Why, does he lose every one ?What if he is an overlay and has one horse in his barn that loves two turn races and this is the day. Well you kind of gave a hint how you make your money and the track now let me tell you mine, it's by playing against crap like that. Oh I get if you bet every Scott Lake horse since 1952 until now in a route race you come up with a -21% well I want to know about today in this race.

"Racing luck favors the long shot" well how many lengths is that exactly? Can't wait to add that bit of info into my handicapping. I'm going to give it 10 lengths what do you think too much too little. Oh I get it it's just some more "horsey talk".

[Lefty]

ric, wanna sell your stuff, is that what i'm reading? Simple, put up 500 selections before the fact that show a profit and then let us know where your website is. That's what Steve Wolson did.
Or are you complaining people that sell things won't help others because of divulging secrets. Not so, and there are plenty of examples of that.

[Lefty]

Every professional has five automatic money making angles. Thats funny Mark Cramer whom most people respect can't find ONE. That's is one that will be an automatic play and return money over a period of time and he has tried every angle I've ever heard of and then some. Of course you can't give out the angle because someone wil run the numbers and prove you wrong. I don't need a computer to tell me this.

Don't bet Scott Lake in two turn races that's "old horsey talk" it went out with high button shoes and the garter belt. Why, does he lose every one ?What if he is an overlay and has one horse in his barn that loves two turn races and this is the day. Well you kind of gave a hint how you make your money and the track now let me tell you mine, it's by playing against crap like that. Oh I get if you bet every Scott Lake horse since 1952 until now in a route race you come up with a -21% well I want to know about today in this race.

"Racing luck favors the long shot" well how many lengths is that exactly? Can't wait to add that bit of info into my handicapping. I'm going to give it 10 lengths what do you think too much too little. Oh I get it it's just some more "horsey talk".

Judge, totally agree. I had a $19.80 horse at CD 5fur turf. Two friends told me how lucky i was because the horse had never been on turf. I explained the fact that the horse had my best number and with one of the leading jocks on him that if he had been on turf before i prob would have gotten a lot less odds. The negative had become a popsitive, valuewise.
"well, one saod, "horses that haven't been on turf before never win on turf."
I waved my ticket at him.

[TurfRuler]

Just finished reading "Riders Down", by John McEvoy, a good read by the way. But to quote a few lines of his characters, it applies to our defense of this board being a good way to learn, even though there are still the old, old heads in handicapping who just won't share their knowledge of how to be a successful player.

Matt: "why haven't you started your own tout service."

The Fount: "Why should I tell anybody what I know when I'm the only one
who knows it."

[KingChas]

even though there are still the old, old heads in handicapping who just won't share their knowledge of how to be a successful player.



The Fount: "Why should I tell anybody what I know when I'm the only one
who knows it."

Show Me Yours and I'll Show You Mine! :eek: :lol:

[46zilzal]

Perhaps he feels he isn't getting the credit he deserves for "giving the board" Bernardini. .
Wasn't the only one who picked that colt. Only agreed with us who liked him.

[Cesario!]

Anyhting that gets you past the last race good figure or win, you have a shot at profits.

A truer statement has never been said. If you want advice, you just got the greatest bit there is.

Seth

[PaceAdvantage]

I suspected Steverino early on.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Guess again....

[NoDayJob]

It's no trauma, just an observation of human nature applied to the internet.

The guy who is honest about being commercial is called a spammer. If he's commercial, he's presumed to be an idiot because of some supposed law that commercial products couldn't possibly teach people how to win (or lose less). A few products, either through reputation or shills, manage to escape this and become "legitimate discussion topics," but for the most part, someone who really wins money here can only drop winners from time to time, without explanation.

I tried to get the "positive ROI club" going a few months ago, and some guys did show a steady profit, but it was obvious that there were few if any professionals in there, because they didn't understand the purpose of the thread, which was to form a de-facto syndicate. The idea was for the amateurs (anyone not paying their bills with winnings) to step aside and let the pros (the ones paying their bills with winnings) to drop some winners and spread the wealth, and/or prove themselves if they wanted.

What did I get? I limited it to 100 plays, one shot. Some people were posting every race, one minute to post, and created so much work for me that my computer literally crashed before I could back up some key data, including the standings. I was 0-for-6 but with some close losses and boxed hits, so Bernardini just got me into positive territory (had the thread lived that long). If the horse was so "obvious" he wouldn't have paid 12-1, and I doubt Barbaro would have beaten him anyway (I had the exacta boxed for a mint and would have had the tri and super if he was second so I didn't exactly make a big score).

I see guys here practically committing suicide with the way they play horses, even if they haven't been destroyed yet. I'd like to correct them, but why make the game harder than it already is for myself? I'm sure many pros who post here feel the same way. It's like the loudmouths want credit for helping without documentation and reproducibility, while those who are willing to be scrutinized just get kicked off for SPAMing if they prove themselves.

I just sat CHAINED to a chair for 11.5 straight hours of horseplaying today (thank you for all the prices, folks). You think I enjoyed that? Sure, it's money, but at that point writing the method seems appealing, and letting other people do the betting. But why give it all out to a place where it'll just make others money and maybe cost me? In that situation, it's not very easy for this or any board to realize its true potential.

I tried one thing already, something that will bump up anyone's ROI if they learn how to use it, which is "racing luck favors the longshot." People know this is true when they talk about why one shouldn't bridgejump, but it applies to literally every race.

Who wouldn't like to be the guy who advances the theory of handicapping? The problem is, when Beyer did it, he was able to capitalize in a way the typical internet guy cannot, so he winds up keeping it to himself and just profiting at the windows while the loudmouths who don't win get props for doing little more than making unverifiable noise.

Now you want something you can use? Don't bet Scott Lake in two-turn races.

There are as many ways to handicap horse races as there are races multiplied by the number of handicappers. If you are looking for the holy grail, all you have to do is research a few thousand races and you'll find what you are looking for. Racing is not as dynamic as one is led to believe. No one will do your research for you. You'll find enough ideas on this site, in the Equibase charts and the DRF or ITS past performances to become very profitable if you do due diligence. As for the pros having to play prove it to you, I believe you are wasting your time. They don't need you. Andy Beyer's ace in the hole was his ability to sell his speed ratings. He probably makes many times what he makes betting the ponies. Best of luck to you.

[dav4463]

Automatic wins. The ad was right here on this board.

http://www.horsebettingreviews.com/

[JustRalph]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Guess again....

Now you have me curious...............hmmmm.......thinking hard....... :bang:

[Red Knave]

7.34
47.3% of statistics are made up on the spot

;)

[Tom]

47.3% of statistics are made up on the spot

;)

Might be a bit higher than that! :liar: