Ragozin Sheets

[cosmo96]

I am looking for someone to give me advice on The Sheets. I have been handicaping with them for a few weeks. I did very well with Churchill and Woodbine. But, lately it's been all downhill. My ROI's at Mountaineer, Belmont, and River Downs have been awful. I am listening to the semenars, but they seem to contridict themselves. I know there is a learning curve. But, if someone can give me advice, I would really appreciate it.

[Dave]

hey, cosmo.

wouldn't you think you could get better advice on The Sheets from The Sheets board?

the only decent advice you can get would be on specific races, or specific patterns that you have questions on, so post up something in particular on either board and I'll give you my own personal opinion -- whatever that's worth.

from my vague memory, the tapes are all good -- what do you feel is contradictory?

[Dave]

oh, ps

you probably aren't giving yourself the best chance at smaller tracks like mountaineer, or river downs, unless you really know the circuit and the trainers.

knowing how fast a 3k claimer ran in his last 5 outs really isn't all that predictive for his next race -- at least imo.
that's not to say you can't find some really good plays in all that junk, but I don't think they really play to the strength of The Sheets.

[bigmack]

If any of you Ragozin folk have any pull with the operation - give em a nudge on the website - it looks like the dawn of the internet.

[bellsbendboy]

Get a DRF. Dump Ragozin, even the Beyer #'s are better. Buy any book on handicapping. Ask questions. The day after you bet go to Thorograph.com, the redboard section,check the numbers, their data, while expensive is the most accurate in the game. When you get to the point where you think you can not possibly learn all there is to know, you have arrived. good cappin. BBB

[kev]

BigMack you are so right about their site, that is the same site they had from back in 99' when I first started to get on there. I agree with Thorograph giving their data away for viewing the day after, that way you can read into the pattern's more. I always said this about the two. The Sheets I'm better at the stake races and Thorograph the cheaper races. Mostly I use them now just for the 3yr races. I found Bris pace figs and their data and doing very well with that. It's cheaper by far. If you have the money to spend on the sheets go for it, but study and learn where your better at using them. cosmo96 I'll be buying some Ragzion sheets for the CD races this sat. I'll be on their site under the name toocool and maybe we will come up with something.

[Dave]

heh...and while you're at the thorograph site check out their race of the week and the rotw archives along w/some result charts.

heh.

ps

you might want to listen to kev's reads this saturday.
in case he's too modest to mention it, he posted a $100 winner and basically a cold $1000 exacta a few weeks ago.
sorry for the pressure, kev.

what's better, kev -- cash or fame?

[Indulto]

cosmo96 I'll be buying some Ragzion sheets for the CD races this sat. I'll be on their site under the name toocool and maybe we will come up with something.Kev/TC,
Which product enabled the pick that put you in the posting prognosticator Hall of Fame?

How would you suggest the SHEETS improve their site? I'd also be interested in specifics from BM and BBB as well. It appears to me that people don't buy Ragozin SHEETS because of their website, but because they seem to like the product which isn't agressively marketed. Friedman and other pattern readers seem very generous with their time and interpretive analyses in that area, you and Dave among them.

If speed figures are more relevant to one’s game than form cycles, then Beyers are the certainly the least expensive way to go. I believe both sheet product vendors offer combinations of individual races for less than an entire card, and I suspect that all data vendors underestimate the number of people like yourself who use different products for different situations.

[kev]

I was sitting here thinking about that, my wife walked by and read it and said cash and kept on walking. By the way one of the powerful uses of The Sheets is pointing you to a low price horse that's not going to run his/her A race.

[kev]

The thing about their site is, they don't offer enough past races for you to study off of. Some of the ex. races they have in there is from many years ago. Robes will give his thoughts on the big races from time to time, maybe post the sheets for them, like a ROTW format. Robes does get down to bizz and doesnt play alot of games like Jerry might. TG rotw is a good learning tool, I might not listen to who they like always, but you get a good idea of form reading.

[Dave]

Kev/TC, then Beyers are the certainly the least expensive way to go.



yeah, but are they really?

if you could have won merely $40 more on a card using Sheets, then beyers were more expensive.

like a friend of mine used to say, if I only had 50 bucks, I'd buy Sheets and bet the rest.

that's just my opinion, of course -- as you can probably tell, I got sold on The Sheets a long time ago.

[shanta]

I am looking for someone to give me advice on The Sheets. I have been handicaping with them for a few weeks. I did very well with Churchill and Woodbine. But, lately it's been all downhill. My ROI's at Mountaineer, Belmont, and River Downs have been awful. I am listening to the semenars, but they seem to contridict themselves. I know there is a learning curve. But, if someone can give me advice, I would really appreciate it.

My advice is to wager Churchill and Woodbine only and pass on Mnr,Bel,Rd.

I have same experience using my software. One size definitely does not fit all.

Play to your ( or the "sheets") strenghts and let the rest go.
:)
Rich

[bellsbendboy]

My understanding is that JB of Thorograph is funding a comparison between the sheets and TG for the Saratoga and Delmar meets.

I agree with a previous post that their best use may be in eliminating a short priced horse as being not "fast" enough.

As some of you know JB used to work for the sheets. Good cappin. BBB

[ryesteve]

My understanding is that JB of Thorograph is funding a comparison between the sheets and TG for the Saratoga and Delmar meets.
What would be the basis of such a comparison, considering that their interpretation is largely subjective?

[bellsbendboy]

My understanding is that they will take the last 3 numbers, toss the worst and average the other two. I would suggest monitoring the TG site for further details. BBB

[Valuist]

I would think the ideal day to get Sheets or T-Graph would be the Mondays that the Meadowlands has all turf racing. I think their turf numbers are far superior to their dirt numbers. They factor in ground loss which is great for grass, but since they ignore pace and bias, the dirt numbers have to be taken w/a grain of salt. T-Graph is better, IMO, because they do have valuable trainer and sire data.

[andicap]

Save your money, dump the Sheets and get HTR.

You can do decent pace and speed analysis for much less money and the scores of satisfied users can testify as to their accuracy.

[bellsbendboy]

What is HTR? Thanks.

[Dave]

What would be the basis of such a comparison, considering that their interpretation is largely subjective?


there isn't any.
it's just another play for attention.

like they say, any publicity is good publicity.

[rickyb]

andycap......great photo of doberman from the old phil silver show......SGT BILKO......I loved that show.........what a con man.......most of the players were old burlesque comedians........nostalgia...... how can you beat it......Regards freddie

[Tom]

Doberm,man?
I thought is was Mayor LaGuardia :eek:

[NYPlayer]

I am looking for someone to give me advice on The Sheets. I have been handicaping with them for a few weeks. I did very well with Churchill and Woodbine. But, lately it's been all downhill. My ROI's at Mountaineer, Belmont, and River Downs have been awful. I am listening to the semenars, but they seem to contridict themselves. I know there is a learning curve. But, if someone can give me advice, I would really appreciate it.

I've used The Sheets for two years now. They've worked better than anything else I've tried. Last year I had near break-even results in over 500 win plays. And I actually had a 60% profit on my win bets at odds of 8/1 or better (188 plays).

I think the real difference between the sheets (no pun intended) and everyone else is the accuracy of the numbers. When I first started using them, I noticed that whenever the sheet numbers differed from the DRF Beyers, the Sheet numbers were usually more predictive of the outcome, so I've come to trust them implicitly. And I think a basic Sheet-Beyer comparison of a horses recent races is the most basic way of getting an edge. You simply bet when these two data sets disagree and the odds on the Sheet horse are better.

The real art of using Sheets though is by reading patterns. I'm no expert at this (yet), but it wasn't to long before I was predicting bounces and that's another edge. Typically, horses can only run two or three peak races before they suffer a decline, although predicting bounces also inlvolves looking at the spacing of races, so it's not always so straightforward. The more sophisticated patterns involve explosive and recovery horses. I'm not quite good at these yet.

My suggestion would be to stick to the major circuits for two reasons. Most of the Sheet players of whom you might ask questions play those circuits, and horses there likely have more predictable cycles. Definitely post questions on the Sheets bulletin board and you can even call them. Everyone at their office is quite friendly and helpful.

Good luck.

[Dave]

I was sitting here thinking about that, my wife walked by and read it and said cash and kept on walking.


heh...did you get to keep any?

[andicap]

andycap......great photo of doberman from the old phil silver show......SGT BILKO......I loved that show.........what a con man.......most of the players were old burlesque comedians........nostalgia...... how can you beat it......Regards freddie

Thanks -- I'm glad you noticed!
I wish some cable network would pick up that show again -- hasn't been on in years. The guy who played Doberman, Maurice Gosner was also the voice for Benny the Ball on "Top Cat," the cartoon version of Sgt. Bilko.

("Top Cat! Whose close friends get to call him 'TC,'-- pro-vi-did they say it with great dignity.")

;)

[andicap]

What is HTR? Thanks.

It's a software program from Ken Massa through the HDW data people.

I wouldn't recommend it unless you had a good grounding in pace/speed handicapping tho. It's not really for beginners. But it's very flexible, Ken is always upgrading it (no cost, but the downloads are $120 a month unlimited, but you don't need BRIS or a DRF) and there's lot of good data.

if you're interested go to htr2.com -- check out the old newsletters. Ken is very glad to talk and might give you a weekend pass with which you can download a month's worth of cards, charts and results and play with it.