English Darby

[cj]

Great race, but pretty sad as well. Horation Nelson, one of the choices, was checked several times in the pre-race warmup as the jock appeared to feel something was amiss. After jogging around in front of the trainer, he was declared fine. He broke down in the strectch.

[KirisClown]

Epsom officials have put the blame on Brother Derek...


On a serious note, it's a terrible shame... rare to see a horse break down in these Euro events...

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1923/c6d0513ln.jpg

[cj]

Kiri,

Watched your replay...terrible ride by Bailey laying well off those slow fractions.

[Suff]

Kiri,

Watched your replay...terrible ride by Bailey laying well off those slow fractions.

24 sumthing 1st Q, but they picked it by doing 47 small for the 1/2. Still....

[CryingForTheHorses]

Great race, but pretty sad as well. Horation Nelson, one of the choices, was checked several times in the pre-race warmup as the jock appeared to feel something was amiss. After jogging around in front of the trainer, he was declared fine. He broke down in the strectch.

I watched the race also and saw him jogging before the race,IF the jock felt that strngly something was amiss he should have insisted on the horse being scratched.Listen to Frank Lyons who said zif you scratch a horse the public wouldnt get back their money..Why is that?..I also wouldnt blame the trainer or officials as like you said he was checked several timess. The horse didnt break down in the early part of the race,He broke down in the thick of thing in the homestretch.It maybe doesnt happen often there but it happened in that race.Turf looked a little soft as you could see deep hoofprints.It was a accident and nothing more.

[PaceAdvantage]

It was a accident and nothing more.

If the jockey felt something was amiss, then it becomes an avoidable accident....and that's simply a travesty.

[tholl]

I watched the race also and saw him jogging before the race,IF the jock felt that strngly something was amiss he should have insisted on the horse being scratched.Listen to Frank Lyons who said zif you scratch a horse the public wouldnt get back their money..Why is that?..


Actually Gary Stevens said that. He's a little confused I think.

In the Ante-Post markets (like the US winter book) he is correct you do not get your money back.

However on the day market, your horse is only a runner when they come under starters orders. Had Horatio been withdrawn at the start he would not have come under orders and all money would be refunded. Additionally the holders of winning tickets would have had a percentage (depending on the odds of the scratched horse) deducted from their winnings. (To compensate the bookmakers for giving inflated prices.

[tholl]

Hala Bek was much the best after been shut in by Visindar and then swerving away from the whip--cost him a length and the race.

[KirisClown]

Kiri,

Watched your replay...terrible ride by Bailey laying well off those slow fractions.

I don't want to say too much about Cigar, I know some people on here would take a bullet for the horse... But, I think he was just flat out beat that day, Bailey moved him with a lot of race to go. Cigar had more then enough time to get by Skip Away, just could do it...

If anything I think Bailey's whip action cost Cigar, one too many times with the left hand caused him to drift.. With a straight course, he might have gotten there.

For the Cigar people.... his last win: 96 Woodward (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raK2IZE4Bik)

[tholl]

I watched the race also and saw him jogging before the race,IF the jock felt that strngly something was amiss he should have insisted on the horse being scratched.

In no way am I making a judgement on whether Horatio Nelson should have been scratched or not and I am not comparing these two events--- but I was back in England a couple of years ago and there was a big stink at Goodwood when Fallon got to the start on a heavy favorite and just "did'nt think the horse was right" He wanted him scratched. The vet looked and could not see anything wrong and refused to scratch him. Meanwhile the horse drifted badly in the betting on Betfair.

During the race Fallon kept his horse at the back of the field and blatently did'nt try an inch. When he unsaddled he told the trainer and stewards that the horse was'nt right and should have been scratched.

Who knows except Fallon whether or not the horse was wrong or not, but it could have been a perfect set-up to make a major score on the exchanges, and since Fallon was under alot of suspicion, many eyebrows were raised.

[DerbyTrail]

Epsom officials have put the blame on Brother Derek...

Line of the Month..

[cj]

If the jockey felt something was amiss, then it becomes an avoidable accident....and that's simply a travesty.

The horse has been put down.

I can buy those that say the Barbaro injury and the gate mishap were unrelated. Certainly possible, and even probably.

But to say these two were not related is crazy. I watched the whole telecast. The whole thing was obviously going to end bad, you could just see it.

[cj]

Hala Bek was much the best after been shut in by Visindar and then swerving away from the whip--cost him a length and the race.

If a horse swerves from the whip and doesn't run straight, he isn't much the best.

[RobinFromIreland]

I sat with my father and watched the race - we couldn't believe Horatio would be taking part - to us it seemed he was clearly lame. Every other step he seemed to limp. Perhaps it was just coincidence, perhaps not.

As for the race, probably the most exiting finish I've seen in years - 4 runners separated by a neck.

Video is available on Racing Post website.

The winner, Sir Percy, was purchased for 16,000 guineas - a pittance. He has now won the championship juvenile event (Dewhurst, 7f) and championship 3yo event (Derby, 12f) in England and finished 2nd in the championship 3yo mile event (2000 Guineas). Not bad for a horse purchased to be a hurdler.

[tholl]

If a horse swerves from the whip and doesn't run straight, he isn't much the best.


Let me rephrase...he SHOULD have been much the best IF he did not swerve from the whip. !!

However, looking again at the replay I'm not sure that the whip had anything to do with it.

[alysheba88]

Anyone blaming "the rigours of English Darby"?

[tholl]

Not yet lol !

[The Judge]

I take it George Washington didn't start any idea why not?

[Tom]

http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=racing/06/05/30/RACING_Washington.html

[tholl]

I take it George Washington didn't start any idea why not?


He was'nt going to run anyway. There was a worry that he might not stay one mile let alone one and a half miles.

[robert99]

HR broke off foreleg at cannon bone and fetlock and ruptured main tendon.
Vet at start passed him OK to run. Coming down hill at top speed in The Derby puts a tremendous strain on forelegs and whether the earlier niggle had any relevance (or even what is was) is not being revealed, or maybe never will be known. The Derby is deliberately intended as a supreme test for a 3yo of balance, stamina and speed for future breeding purposes and sadly a very few break down in attempting it.

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=racing/06/05/30/RACING_Washington.html


Wasn't our friend Two Bucks To Win telling us how far superior Europeans and European horses are to America and Americans? And here we have two major injuries, including one death in the short time since Barbaro's injury.

How interesting....

[kenwoodallpromos]

I'm reading where 3 back HN "collided" with Red Cluba, then 2 back (Two Thousand Guineas) finished 8th with much trouble, then in the Epson Derby O'Brien wanted HN to go to the start "straight away"..
Can anyone tell me what trouble HN had in the Two Thousand Guineas? Thanks.

[GeTydOn]

Another unfortunate turn in racing.

Kiri: LOVE that replay of the Woodward. Excellent! Thought the call was darn good too. Cigar had no exucses.

[tholl]

Wasn't our friend Two Bucks To Win telling us how far superior Europeans and European horses are to America and Americans? And here we have two major injuries, including one death in the short time since Barbaro's injury.

How interesting....


Well that's just flat stupidity. I don't know who "Two Bucks to Win" is or what he said but the FACT is that in Europe they have about 60%?? 80%?? or morelikely 95% less breakdowns than thay do in America. Not so much to do with the breed but the tracks over here. But just because George Washington pulled a muscle (hardly a "major injury") and Horatio Nelson happened to break his leg you are going to draw some conclusion ?

[PaceAdvantage]

Well that's just flat stupidity. I don't know who "Two Bucks to Win" is or what he said but the FACT is that in Europe they have about 60%?? 80%?? or morelikely 95% less breakdowns than thay do in America. Not so much to do with the breed but the tracks over here. But just because George Washington pulled a muscle (hardly a "major injury") and Horatio Nelson happened to break his leg you are going to draw some conclusion ?

I don't believe quantity of breakdowns is the point here. Not the point I was trying to make, anyway. If you are unfamiliar with the Two Bucks To Win saga, I suggest you search his or her posts before commenting further.

I'm not sure you can compare Europe to American racing anyway, in terms of breakdowns. We race primarily on Dirt, Europe on Turf. I'm not sure of the number of horses over there, or the number of races run every year, but I would venture a guess that we as a country run more races and more horses, but that's only a guess. This could have something to do with the difference in breakdown rates.

However, back to the point. Two Bucks To Win, in one of his (or her) more offensive posts, attempted to paint the picture of American racing as bottom of the barrel, money hungry SOBs willing to do anything for a buck, including weakening the breed through drugs, etc.

I found it odd that Fallon called attention to the fact that something was wrong with Horatio Nelson prior to the race, that they held up the start of the race for a good long while, but still in the end allowed the horse to run to his ultimate demise.

Truth be told I was trying to cajole Two Bucks To Win out of hiding to read his (or her) opinion of what happened in the English Darby. It would have been an interesting exchange in light of his (or her) comments right after Barbaro broke down. I guess that's not going to happen though....I can't say I'm not surprised...

[tholl]

I don't believe quantity of breakdowns is the point here. Not the point I was trying to make, anyway. If you are unfamiliar with the Two Bucks To Win saga, I suggest you search his or her posts before commenting further.

I'm not sure you can compare Europe to American racing anyway, in terms of breakdowns. We race primarily on Dirt, Europe on Turf. I'm not sure of the number of horses over there, or the number of races run every year, but I would venture a guess that we as a country run more races and more horses, but that's only a guess. This could have something to do with the difference in breakdown rates.

However, back to the point. Two Bucks To Win, in one of his (or her) more offensive posts, attempted to paint the picture of American racing as bottom of the barrel, money hungry SOBs willing to do anything for a buck, including weakening the breed through drugs, etc.

I found it odd that Fallon called attention to the fact that something was wrong with Horatio Nelson prior to the race, that they held up the start of the race for a good long while, but still in the end allowed the horse to run to his ultimate demise.

Truth be told I was trying to cajole Two Bucks To Win out of hiding to read his (or her) opinion of what happened in the English Darby. It would have been an interesting exchange in light of his (or her) comments right after Barbaro broke down. I guess that's not going to happen though....I can't say I'm not surprised...

I kind of figured you were trying to get a rise !

[Valuist]

What's up with the UK betting public? Horatio Nelson was bet down more than Sir Percy; the two had faced each other twice, including in their last race, and both times Sir Percy had beaten him. Yet for some reason, Horatio was getting hyped, along with the French horse.

[the little guy]

I am most curious in the official response from Coolmore.

[RobinFromIreland]

What's up with the UK betting public? Horatio Nelson was bet down more than Sir Percy; the two had faced each other twice, including in their last race, and both times Sir Percy had beaten him. Yet for some reason, Horatio was getting hyped, along with the French horse.

Their previous two meetings were in the 7f Dewhurst (2yo) Stakes and the 8f 2000 Guineas.

Horatio Nelson is from the family of Generous (Dual Derby winner), Triptych (multiple middle distance champion) and his dam was Imagine (won Oaks).

Sir Percy's sire is Mark Of Esteem - an out and out miler when he raced.

Horatio Nelson had a tough trip in the Dewhurst and was, by the stable's own admission, still not 100% fit in the 2000 Guineas. The vast majority of Aidan O'Brien's horses improve signaficantly on their initial seasonal run.

These are some of the factors why I thought HN was the price he was vis-a-vis SP.

[robert99]

Some recent injury information as regards UK flat racing:

Horses react to changes in surface conditions in a way fundamentally different from that of human athletes and the properties of the track surface have a significant effect on the incidence and type of injury that occur, as well as overall race performance.

80% of fractures in British flat racehorses occur during training. Studying training injuries could enable us to evaluate the likely benefits for injury rates of 'optimal' training programmes and provide advice on the construction and surfacing of training gallops. More than half of UK fractures diagnosed are stress fractures, so a high degree of veterinary involvement in training yards is needed for early and accurate diagnosis to avoid later, more severe injury.

Bone markers provide a simple, reliable method for studying bone cell activity during training to help identify training programmes that stimulate fracture resistant bone, compared to those that may have harmful effects. Results show substantial differences between regimes used to train two-year olds. More balanced training regimes, with more emphasis on work-speed, induce a more consistent decrease in bone turnover with fewer days lost from training and lower incidence of fracture. Training for long distances at the same speed may not be good for bone, with more varied patterns of loading likely to be more effective for strengthening bone.

Excessive, high-intensity exercise in young racehorses causes bone fatigue and stress fractures, while slightly lower-intensity sustained exercise produces new bone more quickly than it can be incorporated into healthy bone structure resulting in sore shins. To prevent these injuries, short high-speed sprints should be introduced twice a week with distances slowly increased from a furlong to half a mile. If the speed is increased, the distance should be initially reduced and then built up once again. The quality of tendons should be maximised before the skeleton reaches maturity by the early introduction of exercise. Degeneration after maturity should be reduced by avoiding training regimes designed solely for 'strengthening' the tendon.

A nine-year study of UK racing fatalities showed that two major contributory factors were the age at which the horses started racing and the distance run where horses are racing for the first time. Studies have also demonstrated that first races are associated with increased risk of injury.

[robert99]

What's up with the UK betting public? Horatio Nelson was bet down more than Sir Percy; the two had faced each other twice, including in their last race, and both times Sir Percy had beaten him. Yet for some reason, Horatio was getting hyped, along with the French horse.

The Derby and the Grand National are two of the races where most of UK public have their only bets of the year. Bookmakers plan to make a major income killing on those two races. Horses are hyped no differently from elsewhere in the World and offered at far too short odds to those who get their information from the daily paper on the day. A French horse that not many had ever heard of was an ideal candidate for hype.

The Derby is 12f on an uphill, downhill, adverse cambered and twisting course. Past form on 7/8f straight tracks has no relation to that. Good 2000g winners had failed miserably in recent Derbys. HN was the pick of 4 by the champion Derby jockey, K Fallon. His stable had just won the fillies equivalent, The Oaks. SP had major training setbacks after the 2000g and HN was certainly backward in that race and his foot problems were presumed over after a good workout with KF. Dosage again proved totally useless in classic middle distance races but HN was thought to be more equal at the enhanced distance and came from a stable that had won many classics including The Derby.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Your post #32 is very well written.
I am a big supporter of early diagnosis and testing.

[tholl]

Dosage again proved totally useless in classic middle distance races but HN was thought to be more equal at the enhanced distance and came from a stable that had won many classics including The Derby.

Interesting that you would mention dosage. While I am not a big fan of dosage overall I do see some usefullness with the Center of Distribution figure. I wrote in an article that Visindar had a less suitable CD of any horse that had won the Derby since the exceptional Mill Reef thirty years ago and this was proved true when he failed to stay.

[robert99]

Interesting that you would mention dosage. While I am not a big fan of dosage overall I do see some usefullness with the Center of Distribution figure. I wrote in an article that Visindar had a less suitable CD of any horse that had won the Derby since the exceptional Mill Reef thirty years ago and this was proved true when he failed to stay.

Tholl,

Visindar had DI of 2.53 and CD of 0.77, when (1, 0) are reckoned optimium.
A false favourite even though his sire won the Derby and Arc. Best theory fits were Septimus(1), Papal Bull (2) and Visindar(3). Sir Percy had only 10 dosage points so was not quantifiable.

Mill Reef indeed was exceptional but had the real advantage for the Epsom twists and turns of being small.

[46zilzal]

Mill Reef indeed was exceptional but had the real advantage for the Epsom twists and turns of being small.
what's that old saying? "One must be handy at Tattenham corner."

[Humph]

What's up with the UK betting public? Horatio Nelson was bet down more than Sir Percy; the two had faced each other twice, including in their last race, and both times Sir Percy had beaten him. Yet for some reason, Horatio was getting hyped, along with the French horse.

I think it all goes back to their first encounter in The Dewhurst - England's premier 2YO race - last year. Sir Percy actually won the race but Horatio Nelson didn't get the best trip and was seen by many as an unlucky loser. Their second encounter was in The Guineas and H.N.'s trainer - Aiden O'Brien- made no secret of the fact that his horse wasn't at the top of his game and the race was only being used as a stepping stone to The Derby. It would appear that many punters - and bookmakers ,too - thought that The Derby would show once and for all that Horatio Nelson was indeed a better horse than Sir Percy. It is such a shame we will never know the answer.

[Valuist]

OK. That makes some sense. But also one universal truth is proven again: NEVER believe what a trainer says.

In 1995, Lukas talked incessantly about Serena's Song while 25-1 stablemate Thunder Gulch got the money in the Derby. In 1998, all Baffert would talk about was Indian Charlie but his lesser regarded stablemate Real Quiet would come w/in a photo of the Triple Crown. Yet years later, both made remarks that, yes they really thought Thunder Gulch and Real Quiet were their best shots that year in the Derby.

[Humph]

OK. That makes some sense. But also one universal truth is proven again: NEVER believe what a trainer says.

In 1995, Lukas talked incessantly about Serena's Song while 25-1 stablemate Thunder Gulch got the money in the Derby. In 1998, all Baffert would talk about was Indian Charlie but his lesser regarded stablemate Real Quiet would come w/in a photo of the Triple Crown. Yet years later, both made remarks that, yes they really thought Thunder Gulch and Real Quiet were their best shots that year in the Derby.

I hear exactly what you are saying but what isn't in doubt , well if you believe what the English racing journalists who had seen H.N prior to him running in The Guineas were saying, is that he was big and burly in his appearance and he could only have improved for the run. Whether or not he had the improvement in him to finish in front of Dylan Thomas (same stable and finished a close 3rd in the Derby) is , of course, another matter.

[bpiets]

:confused: An insurance scam maybe...????>...remember a horse named 'GREEN ??? ' in the breeders cup that this happened too....same connections maybe..???>>..Track vets are simply not doing thier J.O.B. and the only reason that 'they' have one at the starting area is just for that very 'thing'...the one in the 'stall/equipment/waiting' area may well miss something and the 'field' vet is a second opinion with the same power the 'excuse' a 'nag' for reasonable reasons....( the Power'<<>>>of >>>MONEY<<<<)....

[robert99]

Blimy governor, you might be on to something. What a sting - right in front of the Queen Of England and the odd 3 million TV viewers. Get the jockey to say something was not quite right. And who would have thought it of the owner, the richest and most powerful man in Ireland?

[bpiets]

:jump: Yup...the influences of the 'rich & famous' and those that are just wanting to 'earn' a living without the 'bad' 'vibs' that the person mentioned could do to influnce the 'life-style' of a -poor-'ol'-vet'.....in most cases the 'nag' would'a' been 'pulled-out' of the race....after all , this 'rich' and 'mighty' person could easily have swallowed and not have to prove that 'his' 'nag' was better than so-an'-so's'..... :D