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Valuist
06-02-2006, 10:05 AM
This seems to have become the trend the past few years. When you have a real big race, like one of the Triple Crown races, you load up the undercard with great races; numerous stakes. I've never really understood the point of this. Yes, it makes for a great day of racing and betting. But at what cost? You sabotage other cards. This seems to get forgotten. Big days like Derby day or Belmont day are going to draw great cards regardless of the undercard. I just can't imagine Suzie Sixpack in suburban New York thinking, "you know I'm on the fence to go out for Belmont day but now that I see the Riva Ridge is on the card, I'm definitely going. I just love 3YO sprint stakes!" Maybe one of the marketing types can clue me in to why racetracks are going to this thinking.

All one needs to do is look at this Saturday's Belmont Park card. It might be the worst Saturday Belmont card in several years. Smallish fields, slow horses. IMO, there's two bettable races on the entire card; the opener and the feature, which is a Grade 3 with a grand total of 3 horses who've won more than once on the grass. I compared Belmont's Saturday card to the final 5 races from Canterbury, a track given up for dead. Cby's card is a far better card to bet, and quality wise, there probably is no difference. One can't help but think if Belmont had spread the stakes around a little more, rather than loading up for a monster Belmont day card, tomorrow's card wouldn't be so awful.

Suff
06-02-2006, 10:15 AM
All one needs to do is look at this Saturday's Belmont Park card. It might be the worst Saturday Belmont card in several years. Smallish fields, slow horses. IMO, there's two bettable races on the entire card; the opener and the feature, which is a Grade 3 with a grand total of 3 horses who've won more than once on the grass. .

go over to DRF and read the Column entitled

"NYRA meets with Horsemen"


Its up today. They are pressuring NYRA to let races go with smaller fields. The Horsemen are upset the SECY is not letting the short field races go. Instead he is opting to let the Big State bred fields go. Its resulting in handle increases of 8% on track, (despite attendance dips) and nearly 5% all sources handle.

But thats not good for Horsemen...so they're griping. Go read that piece. I'd be curious about your take on it after you have.




Officials of the New York Racing Association met with horsemen on Thursday to trumpet the many changes that have led to an increase in business this year, but it is clear there is still discord between management and horsemen.


At least that was the sentiment of some of the horsemen who attended a 70-minute meeting at Belmont Park that touched on a wide range of issues. "My perception is there's a tremendous disconnect in what goes on in the boardroom and the reality at the rail," said Marty Cunningham, who owns about 10 or 12 horses and who is also a major horseplayer








Part of the reason for the increased business is that NYRA has been running more races for New York-breds, which typically have larger fields than open-company allowance races. In fact, Hayward estimated that NYRA is on course to run 800 New York-bred races this year, up from 722 run in 2005 and 642 run in 2004.

That has caused some issues for horsemen such as Todd Pletcher and Bobby Frankel, who have been frustrated this summer by races failing to fill. While both men attended Thursday's meeting, neither spoke. Pletcher did talk privately with Hayward and Duncker afterward.

"I wanted to make sure they're aware that Belmont and Saratoga need to be treated differently than winter racing at Aqueduct," Pletcher said.

Hayward admitted that racing secretary P.J. Campo has been instructed to use races with bigger fields, but added that he needs to be flexible.

;"P.J.'s instructions are to maximize field size and to run competitive racing," Hayward said. "But he's got to feel empowered that when he has a five-horse field, to let that race go rather than go with a claimer with 10 or 12 horses."

Valuist
06-02-2006, 10:30 AM
I see two of the guys most upset are Pletcher and Frankel. Its really hard to feel sorry for either of those guys. How many tracks are within 150 miles of New York? There's a lot of options there; its not like they're on an island like Cal racing is, or Florida racing is.

Personally, I have no problem with the state bred races. I bet both the NY and Chicago circuits and both use state bred races liberally. I'll take a 12 horse field of Illinois/NY breds going 1 1/16 on the turf over a 5 horse classified allowance field anyday. Of the two bettable races on Saturday at Bel, one is a New York bred NW1X.

Getting back to the original point, a week from now we'll see a tremendous card at Belmont but we'll have to think, couldn't some of these great betting races have been run one week earlier? Just two of them would make a terrible card at least palatable.

Tom
06-02-2006, 10:50 AM
I agree - Belmont has been mostly a disappointment so far. How many 4 and 5 horse stakes are they going to offer? But full fields of NY Breds - 10 pounds of something in a 5 pound bag! Horsemen would love 3 horse fields evey race

Fortunately, with intenet betting, this is no longer a problem - just find tracks that are offering better races. When they come down the stretch, you can't tell if it is a Classified allowance or a $4,000 nw2lt. I bet very few Belmont races - moslty turf. I bet a lot more Evd, Pen, Pha, FL - all, INHO superior tracks when it comes to betting and cashing. When you make that bank deposit, they don't ask you what track it came from.

JustRalph
06-02-2006, 11:09 AM
I bet a lot more Evd, Pen, Pha, FL - all, INHO superior tracks when it comes to betting and cashing. When you make that bank deposit, they don't ask you what track it came from.

Tom, I used to play these tracks more often. But, some of the crap I see lately drives me nuts.

Last night at Charlestown in the 6th race, a horse called "Regal Watch" was dropping to his lowest level ever, 4k claimer, 4.5F race. He was 7/2 at post time. During the post parade it was so obvious that this horse was sore as hell and hurting big time. I couldn't believe how bad he was walking. I passed the race. I was watching though just to see how bad this horse would run. Right before they loaded up, the track Vet mercifully scratched him. These guys at these smaller tracks really get to me sometimes. Complete form reversals and such.....out of the blue etc......very hard to play them.

Valuist
06-02-2006, 11:18 AM
Not to mention the large late odds changes at those smaller tracks.

alysheba88
06-02-2006, 11:33 AM
Frankel and Pletcher are idiots. Frankel especially. Only wants to run in 4-5 horse fields. Wants uncompetitive races so he can maximize his personal profits. While I understand that, I also understand the tracks putting the health of the game and track over Frankel's personal profits.

mltanz
06-03-2006, 07:10 AM
I agree with much of what is said in this thread, but feel the loaded Belmont card is what make is a "special day". In most cases there are a number of exciting races to look forward to not just the Belmont States.

Good Luck to all.....;)

Tom
06-03-2006, 04:58 PM
[QUOTE=Tom].....I agree - Belmont has been mostly a disappointment so far. How many 4 and 5 horse stakes are they going to offer?.... [QUOTE]


Add one more today - a 4 horse feature stakes wtih a 2-5 going wire to wire.:sleeping:

alysheba88
06-04-2006, 09:42 AM
The weather had a little to do with that dont you think Tom?

Tom
06-04-2006, 10:55 AM
Of course, but still, another dismal day at Big Sandy. An isolated 4 horse stake race due to weather would be one thing, but this is just another in a series of crap stakes races. If Bel doens't have the horses, why card stakes?
I bet they could fill a whole lot of $5,000 claimers - they have a lot of those running for $14,000.

alysheba88
06-04-2006, 11:34 AM
I love the meet Belmont has put on. Maybe the stakes races are not great betting races but the others have been. Ironic that many of the trainers are griping the stake races are not filling and the focus has been on the non stakes card.

cj
06-04-2006, 12:05 PM
If Pletcher didn't train so many horses that all fit the same conditions, the fields would be bigger for allowance races. I'm glad the racesec is carding races with big fields, NY breds or not. Why should the horsemen get basically free purse money by running in 5 horse fields that most don't want to bet?

46zilzal
06-04-2006, 12:22 PM
little "mom and pop" race venues are where it's at. Folks without much of a clue at the mutules. Love it.

cj
06-04-2006, 12:23 PM
little "mom and pop" race venues are where it's at. Folks without much of a clue at the mutules. Love it.

How does that fit in here? I'm baffled.

godtomsatan
06-04-2006, 02:28 PM
I'd imagine that the Belmont card is stacked because of people like me who only look at a Belmont program once a year. Same goes for many other tracks with the "big race day".

linrom1
06-04-2006, 04:54 PM
The Belmont meet is a disgrace. In contrast, West coast racing is much improved and is now superior in quantity of number of entries and quality. There has been a dearth of turf racing in the East as it seems that they don't card these races even when it doesn't rain; but when it does, the management is more than eager to switch everything to dirt. The maiden races in Hol have sometimes more than 15 entries. When was the last time you saw a field of more than 12 in the East? BTW NY State bred races are equivalent to $8-10,000CLM races at EVD.

So NYRA did a management shakeup including firing of the Racing Secretary Mike Lewkow to turn it into a Finger Lake meet. No, thank you! I am about to put BEL on my ignore list.
.

Tom
06-04-2006, 05:12 PM
Hey! Finger Lakes - give me that over Belmont any day of the week! :ThmbUp:

Not one race has been taken off the turf this year - not one!

alysheba88
06-04-2006, 06:30 PM
The Belmont meet is a disgrace. In contrast, West coast racing is much improved and is now superior in quantity of number of entries and quality. There has been a dearth of turf racing in the East as it seems that they don't card these races even when it doesn't rain; but when it does, the management is more than eager to switch everything to dirt. The maiden races in Hol have sometimes more than 15 entries. When was the last time you saw a field of more than 12 in the East? BTW NY State bred races are equivalent to $8-10,000CLM races at EVD.

So NYRA did a management shakeup including firing of the Racing Secretary Mike Lewkow to turn it into a Finger Lake meet. No, thank you! I am about to put BEL on my ignore list.
.

Your kidding right? West Coast and their 5 horse fields every race are superior?

As far as the turf you understand these are carded several days in advance. Sorry it rains from time to time. Guess NYRA is to blame for the weather too.

alysheba88
06-04-2006, 06:31 PM
Hey! Finger Lakes - give me that over Belmont any day of the week! :ThmbUp:

Not one race has been taken off the turf this year - not one!

Yes, clearly best racing in the world takes place at Finger Lakes. Best quality, fullest fields, most honest racing. Everyone know that which is why everyone ships there.

bettheoverlay
06-04-2006, 07:02 PM
Your kidding right? West Coast and their 5 horse fields every race are superior?

Hollywood has an average of 9.2 horses per race. Today, at least.

Suff
06-04-2006, 07:41 PM
Ok ok ok..

california racing fell on hard times the last couple of years, and these Paceadvantage california guys are just frothing at the bit to give it back to the pace advantage East Coast guys that were kicking them when they were (are) down.
I get it.


I took my shots. But can we wait until the meet's half over. They run at Belmont for another 7 weeks. So maybe all's not well , but to write off New York racing as unworthy after a few short weeks of the Spring meet is mighty quick on the draw.

Tom
06-04-2006, 07:48 PM
Alys-
I think FL is more honest than NYRA - I don't know of any suspicious trainers excpet one - and he is not doing near as well in recent years.
Hey, you like Bel - go for it.
I classify a good track as one where I make mnoney. And as to horse quality, I think Belmont might be carding NYB races than FL now. So much your quality theory.

I would list a lot of tracks as "better" than anything NYRA has to offer -

Pen
Mnr
Pha
Pha
Pha
FE
Evd
CD
Pim
AP
HOL


Gee, I don't think Belmont made the list. :D

linrom1
06-04-2006, 07:48 PM
Hollywood has an average of 9.2 horses per race. Today, at least.

On Sat 6/3/06 Hol had an avg of 8.7 horses. But, who cares about facts?

Tom
06-04-2006, 08:11 PM
He said today, not yesterday.
But then, who cares about facts! :eek:

linrom1
06-04-2006, 08:24 PM
He said today, not yesterday.
But then, who cares about facts! :eek:

Yesterday there was an avg 8.2 horses/per race at HOL and today there are 9.2. The point is that both I and bettheoverlay are making in reply to alysheba88 whose impression is that most fields in Cali are still 5-6. :sleeping:

kenwoodallpromos
06-04-2006, 08:35 PM
Tom- I see you rank Hol ahead of NYRA! Welcome to the West Coast!
(Suff- This Ca guy-me- likes to see good racing no matter where it is!)

Ok ok ok..

california racing fell on hard times the last couple of years, and these Paceadvantage ****california guys are just frothing at the bit to give it back to the pace advantage East Coast guys that were kicking them when they were (are) down.
I get it.


I took my shots. But can we wait until the meet's half over. They run at Belmont for another 7 weeks. So maybe all's not well , but to write off New York racing as unworthy after a few short weeks of the Spring meet is mighty quick on the draw.

Tom
06-04-2006, 09:51 PM
Yesterday there was an avg 8.2 horses/per race at HOL and today there are 9.2. The point is that both I and bettheoverlay are making in reply to alysheba88 whose impression is that most fields in Cali are still 5-6. :sleeping:

I know - hence, the :eek:

;)

Tom
06-04-2006, 09:52 PM
Tom- I see you rank Hol ahead of NYRA! Welcome to the West Coast!
(Suff- This Ca guy-me- likes to see good racing no matter where it is!)

Ken, I love Hol - good track, and I prefer playing later in the day.
This 1:00 post time is for the birds. I'm playing mostly nites track now - and loving it!

Indulto
06-04-2006, 10:17 PM
...This Ca guy-me- likes to see good racing no matter where it is!KW,
Thats how I feel. I went to HOL on Memorial Day, not just for the Shoe and Gamely, but for the Met and the big race at Lonestar as well. I've just gotten away from non-stakes unless they're part of a P3 or P4 that might help me leverage a strong stakes race selection.

I can talk about racing all week long, but I can usually only stand to go out there and watch 'em on weekends and holidays. My enthusiasm picks up, though, when SAR, DMR, MTH, and AP are all active. I can't get enough of that buffet.