lASIX QUESTION

[Suff]

The 6 horse running in the 2nd tommorrow at saratoga.. Broke poorly in his first start and closed 17 lengths in a 5 1/2 furlong race... Now I see he is going today 1st time LASIX... Know way to know for sure, but I have to believe the horse did'nt bleed or did'nt bleed badly if he was "Flying" in the last two furlongs... so on that assumption... what other reason would a trainer go to LASIX besides a bleed? Thanks

[Rpd]

Sufferin,

Did he perhaps bleed in a workout inbetween the last race and today's race?

[Suff]

Originally posted by Rpd
Sufferin,

Did he perhaps bleed in a workout inbetween the last race and today's race?

Does'nt show a work since last out?

[Rpd]

Sufferin,

The others on the board can correct me, but I believe the horse has to bleed first before they allow Lasix. Could just be minor bleeding. In my opinion, I think 'most' trainers try to get them them on Lasix as soon as they can.

Good fortune to you tomorrow on races 1 and 2. Sometimes angles are the only way.

[Jaguar]

Sufferindowns,

Statistically, second time Lasix horses often do better than they did the first time on the drug. Secondly, horses breathe easier and usually race stronger on Lasix, and have fewer immediate post-race problems.

Most importantly, the horse's connections want to win and if the first time dosage wasn't optimal, the vet adjusts the 2nd time dosage(the initial dosage is by weight). trying to squeeze better performance out of the horse.

Trainers need to use drugs because everyone else is doing it. Trainers are compelled by the business they are in to win, come hell or high water. Everyone has a mortgage and a car payment- except Donald Trump and the Sultan of Brunei.

All the best,

Jaguar

[Suff]

Not being argumentative here... Just want to get it right... there has to be some "downside" to Lasix or it be an automatic in every T-bred... so I no I am assuming he did'nt bleed.. and I may be incorrect... But I was wondering if any other reason than bleeding would prompt a trainer to go to LASIX... after a first out good performance.. perhaps your comment on breathing was on to it.... Maybe the jock said the horse was Gasping for air or struggling to get deep breaths... who knows?

[Tom]

I think that they can use a 'scope and look deep into the horses
lungs and if they see any minute trace of bleeding, lasix is then ok'd. i tink if you coped a human, they would qualify for lasix after coughing.

[Show Me the Wire]

Lasix helps prevent bleeding from the membrane in the lung. Once the membrane ruptures the lung tissue is permanently damaged and is susceptible to further ruptures and bleeding. Apparently horses have high blood pressure and lasix like other diuretics lowers blood pressure and as a result the horse is less likely to rupture and bleed. Diuretics are prescribed to people with high blood pressure and I am not aware of any downside related to human use. The downside to a horse is that it will die if it bleeds enough.

Bleeding is not confined to thoroughbreds. I have been told bleeding is also a problem in barrel racing. It seems in any activity the horse is pushed to its physical limits there is a propensity for the horse to rupture lung tissue and bleed.

Therefore it is not unreasonable for an owner to protect his investment and administer lasix as early as possible in the horses racing career. As an owner you do not want your property to be permanently injured if the injury is preventable. I feel every horse should be administered lasix as a preventive measure.

Just last week I had the unfortunate experience to witness a horse bleed to death after racing. It is a horrific sight. I am in favor of trying to prevent other horses from bleeding to death by the liberal use of lasix.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Tired of all the misinformation.

[Suff]

I know what lasix is... I know horses bleed.. I know where they bleed.. I know why they bleed... and I'm getting frustrated at my own thread.. Beacuse I keep asking ther same question over and over. And I keep getting "Bleeding" as a reason they use LASIX. What other reasons "BESIDES BLEEDING" would a trainer use lasix....

[Suff]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jaguar
[B]Sufferindowns,

Statistically, second time Lasix horses often do better than they did the first time on the drug. Secondly, horses breathe easier and usually race stronger on Lasix, and have fewer immediate post-race problems.


makes enough sense to me.... Thanks. Good luck on the cards today

[delayjf]

I have read that lasix can be used to mask the presents of other drugs.

SHOW ME THE WIRE,
Where did you see this horse bleed to death after a race???
That's the first time I've heard of that happening. I hope PETA doesn't get wind of that incident. The first time I took my dad to the track, a horse broke his leg right in front of the grandstand, made my dad sick, that's not a pretty sight either.

[ceejay]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns
What other reasons "BESIDES BLEEDING" would a trainer use lasix....

Although I have no stats to back it up, but I think that it is because Lasix can be a performance enhanser.

[Jaguar]

As I mentioned the other day, the Penn study found Lasix and Bute to have a stimulant effect, for most horses. The beneficial aspect of preventing bleeding puts a nice gloss on it.

This way the trainer isn't saying: "I'm juicing my horses, just like everybody else in this game."

Can't blame any of 'em, it's human nature to try and get the money. The problem is, leadership is from the top down and the NTRA and HBPA, etc., won't step up, take some responsibility, and put a stop to all the nonsense.

And believe me, Clenbuterol is just the tip of the iceberg, wait till you see what the chemists come up with next. You think the horsemen are robbing the bettors now, the rocket fuel of the future will turn clapped-out 8-year old claimers into Riva Ridge.

Except, you and I won't know that they hit the horse with it before the race. Watch the exacta pools closely, that's where the connections hide the win money, and sometimes in the doubles and pick threes.

All the best,

Jaguar

[Show Me the Wire]

Sufferindowns:

I thought I answered your question about why a trainer would use lasix after a good performance and the possible downside of lasix use. I replied lasix is used to protect the investment in the horse and I was not aware of any major downside in similiar medication in people.

I am glad you understand about bleeding in horses, therefore that is why I misunderstood your inquiry. I now believe what you asked is there any reason to use lasix other than as preventive medication. My answer to that question is no.

Additionally, I do not believe lasix is a performance enhancer. The horse may run better on its second dosage because the second dosage is given correctly and actually prevents the horse from bleeding. Also remeber it is a diuretic and the first time a horse runs on lasix the horseis running at a much lighter weight than it has in its recent past races.

If you want to hear lasix can act as a masking agent, I do not know if that is a valid statement. Some jurisdictions believe it does and other jurisdictions do not. Your guess is a good as anyone on that issue. However, from my experience it is not used as a masking agent but as preventive medication.

I understand there are plenty of maskig agents available to athletes and lasix would not be the top or best application as a masking agent.

delayjf:

I prefer not to mention the race track where the unfortunate incident took place. The race track and the trainer are not at fault, but this incident illustrates the need for lasix and posssible adjunct bleeder medication.

Regards,
Show me the Wire

To master one's self, one must act without cunning.

[Rpd]

Show me the wire:

Maybe you can answer this one for me. I was of the understanding that if a horse bled during a workout it was also eliblible for lasix. If that is correct, then allowed to work again, by the time it really races it might then be 2nd time lasix would would explain to me why some so called "first-time lasix" dramatically improve. The dosage might then be adjusted the correct way and the horse really benefits.

Thanks,
Stephen

[Show Me the Wire]

Rpd:

The answer to your question is generally yes. I do not know if all states allow a horse to qualify for lasix if the horse bled in a workout.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

The greater the number of laws and restrictions the, the poorer the people who inhabit the land.

[Rpd]

Show me the wire:

Thanks for the reply. That could explain some of the inconsistancies in the lasx angle. As in all medications, handicappers really don't know when and how much.

Stephen

[Tom]

Cool Avatar. ;)

[Rpd]

Thanks Tom, yours is no slouch either.

Easier to figure out than WE a__, lol

[karlskorner]

Many handicappers believe that first time Lasix (FTL) will result in a positive form reversal. While many horses do respond positively to first time Lasix, the cause-and-effect relationship between Lasix and improved performance is not clear cut. A TB with an infection or obstruction in it's upper respiratory tract would not be affected by the diuretic, will still bleed through Lasix. FTL horses that have a sensitivity to potsassium and soduim loss also will perfoirm poorly. If a post race blood test indicates a potassium or sodium deficiency, the horse's feed and water can be supplemented with electrolytes. Subsequently, this may result in a drastically-improved performance the second or third time Lasix is administered.

In order for a TB to receive Lasix, it must qualify as a bleeder. However the definition of bleeder varies. One tract Vet will require that red blood must actually be coming up the animal's windpipe, while another will only have to observe brown-tinged mucus coming from a horse's nostrils to put it on the 'Lasix list"

Not all horses bleed obviously during or immediately after a workout or race. Consequently, the most accurate endoscope examinations are performed after the horse has been cooled out.
Frequently a gravity bleeder, when given Lasix for the first time, may improve dramatically at the expense of the betting public.

Someday the NTRA will encourage uniform Lasix regulations and increase the penalties for dosage violations. Token fines and brief suspensions for "juicers" who are robbing the public with Lasix-masked designer drugs should be replaced by jail time and life-time suspension

[Suff]

Theres a pretty darn good article on LASIX at the ESPN horse racing site... and one of the points it makes is that LASIX does not stop bleeding anyway...


http://espn.go.com/horse/columns/misc/1417524.html

Its a good read and worth a few minutes