So is this where Sartin and Mahl got it?

[anotherdave]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1850233650

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[Dick Schmidt]

AD,

No, I don't think so. Huey and other early pace guys worked mostly in miles-per-hour. Doc switched to FPS, but he had a computer from the get-go and FPS is much easier to compute than MPH. You can trace pace handicapping back to Col. Bradley in the 1920's in the US, and most likely back even further to the invention of the stopwatch. With both Huey and Howard, the power of their systems was in how they combined and averaged the numbers, not just FPS.

Interesting book, however. I may buy it just to have. Thanks for the pointer.

Dick

[Tim]

Dick,

I don't know for sure, but I am under the impression that John Meyer's(TIS) FPS work preceeded Sartin's by a few years. I wrote my first time to FPS conversion program in 1981. It was based on the "T.I.S. Velocity Ratings" that was published that year. I don't remember hearing anything about Sartin until a couple of years later. I've always been curious about who was earlier, Sartin or Meyer.

Tim

[Tom]

I think Ben Hur mentioned a dead rail and that he would let the speed come back to him <G>

[Lefty]

I think Doc got the fps concept from a former pal of his by name of Sam Sedgewick. I know that he referenced Sedgeweek a few times in Follow Up as well as Huey and Taulbot.
Remember, nothing really new under the sun(including this quote)

[Dick Schmidt]

Both Sedgewick and Meyers could well have preceeded Sartin. FPS is just a way of measuring, not a handicapping method. I very much doubt that Sartin invented it. I just never saw that book in his house or library, or ever heard of it. As I said, he didn't need charts because he always had a computer to do the FPS calculations for him.

Dick

[JimL]

Tim like you, I think Meyer, came first. I wonder what happened to him?

[Rick]

John Meyer was unquestionably the guy who studied pace most scientifically. All those who came before him and most afterwards were making claims they couldn't back up with real statistics. This guy really TESTED the ideas of himself and others. If we had anyone like him now, claims about horse racing would be a lot more credible. But it's not going to happen. Now, reputation is worth a lot (how many books you've written), and claiming that you tested something on 80,000 races is worth something, and getting angry if someone disagrees with you seems to be the most effective of all.

[freeneasy]

actually, I was using fps before they ever hit the scene, maybe a couple of years before they came into public view with Sartins introduction to them. Sedgewick, Meyers and Mahl could very well have been using fps way before I ever stumbled on to them. but to really ever be able to use fps to its full capacity you needed the use of a computer, not a hand calculator.
I was making and using my own Beyer numbers before Beyers name became synonimous with final time. I think my final time number was perhaps a bit stronger and little tighter then his tho. But when you spend sometimes 8 to 9 hours a night compiling all these fractional times, internal fractions, the 'point' value of a 1/100 th of a second for each distance and all on a hand held, you burn out. It was real frustrating to know you really locked on to something and just didnt have the means, knowhow or capacity to put it together. I called Jim " The Hat " Bradshaw one day and we talked and he said Sartins program was pretty good and that if I wanted something close to what I was looking for then that was it, but if I wanted my own program, my own way, the way I wanted it, then I'd have to learn all about computer programing and do it myself. Well here I am, some ott years later with my hand held calculator, cryin the blues on the internet. Someone get me a towel, or is that down the hall as well.

[Rick]

freeneasy,

I think it's better if you do it your way. Tell us what youv'e learned.

[kitts]

The first handicapping seminar I went to was in '56 or '57 with Hugh Matheson. It was pace handicapping to some extent. The DRF did not print internal fractions in the pps in those days but they did show the internals in the Charts. Hugh gave basically two rules to follow which put us about three steps in front of the masses. Not FPS or MPH here, just internal fractions and some basic ways to use them. Ah, the good ol' days.

[freeneasy]

well I think I learned one thing, that when you take any fractional time, converted it to mph or into fps, basically you get the same number only expressed in a different foremat. fps will get you truer time by a tad, maybe a head or a neck but thats about it. But how do you equate a 24sec. last frac. in a sprint with or to a 24 sec. last frac. in a route. I mean did that 24 in a route come after slow or fast fractions were set. if a front runner runs a 24 all the way around, hey you get a 1.36 mile. 24, 48, 1.12 and 1.36. I'll take a dozen of those. hate to cut short but gotta go

[Dick Schmidt]

Freeneasy,

Answering your question IS pace handicapping. I co-wrote a 200 page book just to answer that one question. Tom Brohamer's book is even bigger, but the question is the same. How did a horse get to the start of the third fraction in the past and how much will he have left when he gets there today? Answer that question and the world is yours.

Dick

[freeneasy]

yeah, sorry Dick, I had the answer to that but then the alarm clock went off and woke me up.

[Dick Schmidt]

Freeman,

I've had that dream. Where you suddenly notice that the winner of every race has something simple in common that no one else has ever noticed. You know the winner of every race! But some guy keeps grabbing your shirt as you go to bet, wanting to know who you like. Never could decide if I liked that dream or not.

Dick

[superfecta]

Originally posted by Dick Schmidt
Freeman,

I've had that dream. Where you suddenly notice that the winner of every race has something simple in common that no one else has ever noticed. You know the winner of every race! But some guy keeps grabbing your shirt as you go to bet, wanting to know who you like. Never could decide if I liked that dream or not.

Dick Were you naked in your dream,or couldn't find the tellers window or the guy that took your bet looked like the Grim Reaper....or was that a dream?!?;) Not just a bad day at the track?

[BMeadow]

A feet-per-second velocity chart was published in one of Robert S. Dowst's books in the 1930's. My guess: the concept began somewhere around the time of Ben Hur.

[freeneasy]

I, and so help me I'm telling the truth, for a time used to have this reocurring dream at a time when my mind was swilling with handicapping to the point of overswill. Same dream every time.
I was a jockey, and I was always on the same horse, no matter what, and the dream would always start right at the stretch. Were going good when for no reason the horse would just go into this stationary slow motion gallop, like that 10 cent kiddie ride at the supermarket. I mean the horse was trying but he may as well of been running on an old "slip n slid" covered with motor oil. well I guess when your a 165-70 pound jockey your agent aint gonna get ya to much in the way of a surefooted mount

[freeneasy]

well there ya go, I wonder what the track profile for the Colliseum was like back then. Avg. winner was within 3 chariots of the lead at the half.