A bettor's cautionary tale

[turfspec]

My friend and I play at Pha Park simulcast facilities both on track and off. Over time we struck-up an aquaintance with a nervous little guy whose usual seat was near our own. Turns out he is a show bettor - wagering between $500 or $600 to $10K prime bets. A more unlikely bridge jumper you'll probably never meet. He'll sometimes ask our opinion on a horse he is considering - the man cannot read the DRF pp's, does no handicapping of his own and sweats every bet. He's not looking for pool inefficiencies - he tracks the betting action and when he determines the "smart money" of other big show bettors is coming in he rides along with their play. Apparently it works for him. Last we heard he was on a long winning streak and claimed to be up $60K. I believe him.

We hadn't seen him in awhile and speculated he had hit a few losers and lost his nerve or simply gave in to the pressure. Well, my friend ran into him at an off-track site this weekend where he heard his tale of woe. For those of you unfamiliar with the Pha Park phonebet system; if you open an account you can bet via phone, the internet or on a touch screen device known as "Tiny Tim" found at the betting stations at the simulcast centers. This is convenient, of course, and in the case of our aquaintance, a necessity given the amounts he plays. The downside to this is that track management can track all of your action, a double- edged sword to be sure. In fact, they'll give you a year end account summary of all your play if you request it. A little while ago management called in our aquaintance and told him they "no longer wished to business with him". Apparently they closed his account if not outright banning him! He then made a $10K bet through a friend's account and management sussed it out and were really peeved. He is retaining a lawyer.

My first reaction to this story was - They can't do that! This is a State sanctioned racetrack not a private racebook. My second was - Why should they? It is a pari-mutuel system afterall, and not all of his play is made into a minus pool. Now I'm not sure what to make of this. Any legal eagles out there? Opinions?

Rob

[rrbauer]

turfspec wrote:
It is a pari-mutuel system afterall, and not all of his play is made into a minus pool. Now I'm not sure what to make of this. Any legal eagles out there? Opinions?

Comment:
I've bet with Philly Park for a long time and have had plus and minus years. My best guess as to where a show bettor could get sideways with management would be in two areas:

1. Minus pools. I'm not sure what the arrangements are between host tracks and simulcast sites regarding how the shortfall is made up. If he was betting into Philla Park's pools from their live meet then I can see him becoming persona non grata for sure.
2. Player-rewards points (which amounts to rebates). They have several levels or grades at which players are "comped". He may have been at the top level (Diamond). I don't know what bets earn at that level. At the Platinum level, bets earn 1.85 points for each $1 bet. Each 6250 points gets you a $25 voucher (or credit to your account).

So, if he was betting into minus pools AND getting a rebate via the player-rewards system AND winning most of his bets, then he must have set off a bunch of alarms in PP's accounting system!

[so.cal.fan]

Why would anyone who made such large wagers want to bet with any service that could "track" your play?
I don't even get involved with the GOLDEN STATE REWARDS program in Calif. because I just don't want anyone "tracking" my bets.

[rrbauer]

socalfan wrote:Why would anyone who made such large wagers want to bet with any service that could "track" your play?

Comment:
I don't make large wagers to the tune of $10k a pop, but I do bet a fair amount. It doesn't bother me that my bets are being tracked so long as I'm getting a kickback based on my play. They track my play when I'm in Vegas and I haven't paid for a hotel room (directly at least) for a long time.

(The Golden State Rewards thing doesn't do much for me either!)

[Lefty]

If casinos in NV can get away with banning card counters or anyone else they want my feeling is that the guy is gone and he should bet where they can't trk his bets. I guess that's at the trk.

[hurrikane]

10K is the Treasury Dept red flag for money laundering. It is possible that they just don't want the headache of reporting to the IRS and Treasury dept when this guy makes a 10K bet.

[takeout]

Originally posted by turfspec
He is retaining a lawyer.

I would think that the guy has a helluva case. I'm certainly not advocating "bridge jumper" betting but I don't see how they can refuse anyone's large show bets. If the law says that the track has to pay 5%, then it would follow that they have to take the bets.

[takeout]

Here's an old snippet that was a special to the Form. Delaware Park evidently didn't get the word on his one:

$180G Show Wager Causes $41G Minus Pool at Del.

DELAWARE PARK, Del. - A wager of $180,000, nearly one-fourth of the day's total handle ($808,260) was placed here Sunday. It was the largest bet in the 54-year history of Delaware Park, and created a minus show of $41,275.

The wager was on the three-horse entry, headed by Dance Smartly, to show in the Prince of Wales Stakes that was simulcast from Fort Erie. Although there were six horses in the Canadian stake, there were only four betting interests due to the entry.

Dance Smartly won the race and the entry paid $2.10 to show, the same amount as win and place.

There was only win betting allowed on the race at Fort Erie.

[Bubbles]

Hey...

All I have to say is...wow. I've seen scams like this where if someone has a history of using tons of money in one way or another, the company folds and takes the person's money. This is why I only bet one or two bucks on the ponies per race.

[Barremill]

Lefty,
didn't the US Supreme court say that casinos COULDN'T bar counters?
or maybe they changed this at some point? i mean, there is nothing
Dishonest about card-counting and never understood how or why the casinos
could legally ban them. ok i know WHY! getting banned from the casino for
Bad Behaviour or CHEATING is one thing..... or am i whistling disk key here?

CU
barremill

[Lefty]

The courts have always upheld the casinos right to bar counters.
Blve me they put you in the "Griffin" book just as though you were a cheat. That's why the team concept was born. Now a lot of casinos are putting in a Shufflemaster system that has over a 100 decks in it. The ones that don't employ dealing techniques like "stripping" and "clumping" and if they think you're counting out you go. Yrs ago my goal was only a modest $100 a day making small bets and I got kicked out of 3 places and others used all these shuffling techniques. I was even in one place playing when the dealer announced, "plus four." time to shuffle.{

[Dick Schmidt]

Barremill,

Getting tossed from a casino depends on what state you are in. In New Jersey, the state supreme court ruled that a casino must take all comers (outright cheaters excepted). In Nevada, a casino can toss you without any reason given whatsoever. Now that gambling has spread to so many states and reservations, each is governed by a different set of local regs.

Dick

[Barremill]

Dick,
don't you just love State's Rights? common sense goes out the window, it seems! so if one is a 'counter' you just hafta pick yer spots. and no, i don't even play blackjack, and Foxwoods and Mohegan are just an hour away too!
thanks to you and Lefty for the explanation.

CU
barremill

[rrbauer]

Thanks to "states rights" the H.R. bill to kill all Internet gaming , including horse-race betting, is stalled and probably will never see the floor of the House, in its current state, this year.

[Aussieplayer]

The trouble is, where you find states that can't legally ban card counters, you virtually always get a poor game. As poor a game as the casino can offer without turning off the regular players.
You play in Vegas at a good game, you get banned. You play in AC, and you get a bad game.
You can't win :(

AP