Data Providers on the Warpath

[ecaroff]

A must read is an article published in the April 15, 2006 edition of the Thoroughbred Times by Bob Ehalt. I haven't been able to find a link on the internet for the story yet - you'll have to get the magazine.

Equibase takes measures to stop pirating of electonic data from its website by Bob Ehatt.

"Daily Racing Form and Bloodstock Research Information Services which also offer Equbase charts on their websites, still use HTML charts. Zeitlin, though has been told both companies are moving toward trashing the HTML component. You need a critical consenus to fight this battle, and both DRF and BRIS have committed to us and allowed me to say that in the short term, they will have secure PDF's on their sites, as well, Zeitlin said."

There are a lot of errors and distortion of facts in this article

This is a "heads up" to any developers who want to start now writing software for the PDF's.

I really think it's time to fight back.

[cj]

The whole thing is a joke. If they offered decent charts for sale, most people would pay the money and buy them. The people running this whole thing are morons with absolutely no business sense.

Seriously, think about it. They are scared to death of people taking "free" charts, but any person with an IQ above 30 can download a BRIS PP file and share it with 8,000 people if they want to do so via email.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I'm Just trying to figure out why DRF PP's the night prior to the races do have the morning lines, and why the Tomlinson ratings are gone.

[Indulto]

A must read is an article published in the April 15, 2006 edition of the Thoroughbred Times by Bob Ehalt. I haven't been able to find a link on the internet for the story yet - you'll have to get the magazine.

Equibase takes measures to stop pirating of electonic data from its website by Bob Ehatt.

"Daily Racing Form and Bloodstock Research Information Services which also offer Equbase charts on their websites, still use HTML charts. Zeitlin, though has been told both companies are moving toward trashing the HTML component. You need a critical consenus to fight this battle, and both DRF and BRIS have committed to us and allowed me to say that in the short term, they will have secure PDF's on their sites, as well, Zeitlin said."

There are a lot of errors and distortion of facts in this article

This is a "heads up" to any developers who want to start now writing software for the PDF's.

I really think it's time to fight back.ecaroff,
Good work and welcome back. What is a "secure PDF?" Can they be downloaded or only viewed on-line? If the former, will PDF to MS-WORD utilities work?

[kenwoodallpromos]

How did the chart callers go from working for DRF to working for Equibase and DRF paying for the info? Who actually pays the chart callers? Are they the same people who record the workouts? Why did DRF not sue Equibase and the Jockey Club and NTRA years ago, or did they?
I have a feeling every informatin seller in horseracing is just trying to stay in the black, including the squabblers, big or small, and they do not know how to work together.
Maybe horseracing would be more popular if all facets were not squabbling among themselves: backside, bettors, info spreaders.
From what little I know I do not think the "other breed" people go at it as much.

[michiken]

CJ has a very valid point.

This is just the tip of the iceberg and the reason why I cancelled my accounts.

How long before the comma delimited files go away and you can only buy pdf data from the suppliers? I would not put it past the suppliers to cut the throats of the software developers.

[the_fat_man]

What am I missing here:

PDF documents can't be (as easily) parsed?

[ecaroff]

ecaroff,
Good work and welcome back. What is a "secure PDF?" Can they be downloaded or only viewed on-line? If the former, will PDF to MS-WORD utilities work?

Thank you.

Download one the PDF files at Equibase and see if you can do anything with it except print it. I have the solution but let's see if others out there can solve the problem.

[the_fat_man]

Not an expert here
but

Perl, for example,

has a PDF:: Parse module (library)

I would imagine
this allows for the parsing of PDF docs


p.s.

that's a nice looking PDF doc

[ecaroff]

Hank Zeitlin of Equibase states: "The key issue for us is the protection of our intellectual property".

The data does not belong to Equibase nor do they collect it. The race tracks provide all the equipment (photo finish equipment and photo layout of the finish for calculating the margins, teletimers, etc.) It is the race tracks that collect the data. Equibase is simply a "Repository". Even if the data was copyrightable (which it is NOT) - it would belong to the race tracks. Since when does a repository have intellectual property rights?

The industry needs to be concerned about the off-shore sites stealing the betting dollar not the data. I think the data should be offered to everyone to do whatever they please. This is how new and better products and inventions come about. It is the American entrepreneurial spirit that makes this country great.

[ecaroff]

How did the chart callers go from working for DRF to working for Equibase and DRF paying for the info? Who actually pays the chart callers? Are they the same people who record the workouts? Why did DRF not sue Equibase and the Jockey Club and NTRA years ago, or did they?
I have a feeling every informatin seller in horseracing is just trying to stay in the black, including the squabblers, big or small, and they do not know how to work together.
Maybe horseracing would be more popular if all facets were not squabbling among themselves: backside, bettors, info spreaders.
From what little I know I do not think the "other breed" people go at it as much.

When KIII communications was trying to dump DRF they sold out to Equibase to reduce their costs and thus the overall asking price.

[chickenhead]

I assume (since this seems to relate to charts and not results) the intellectual property they are referring to are the internal positional calls and beaten lengths. The chart callers are employed by Equibase.

The whole thing is ludicrous, they should not attempt to turn the most rudimentary data into a profit center. If they want to add some real value, sure, but they should be bending over backwards (rather than bending the customer forwards) to get the basics into the hands of anyone who wants it.

[ecaroff]

I assume (since this seems to relate to charts and not results) the intellectual property they are referring to are the internal positional calls and beaten lengths. The chart callers are employed by Equibase.


But that's the real fallacy in their argument. Equibase is the non-profit entity of a partnership they have with the race tracks. So it doesn't matter who pays the chart callers - it's an expense and the more Equibase spends the less revenue the race tracks get. So it is a "moot" point as to who pays them.

[chickenhead]

I agree it all amounts to roughly the same thing. Whether it's EB or the tracks that want to "protect" i.e. charge for the data, it really doesn't matter, it has the same effect. I disagree though that they do not "own" that data, the chart calls are more or less personal impressions of the caller (unfortunately), whoever is paying for those impressions owns them. I just think it's silly for them to place so much emphasis on profiting directly from it.

[osophy_junkie]

What am I missing here:

PDF documents can't be (as easily) parsed?

PDF files do not have the kind of structure HTML files have. PDF files work by describing graphical components and their positions, HTML files are seperated bits of structure and styling. The PDF files can be parsed but a lot more guess work needs to go into the determining what components are what.

- Ed

[kenwoodallpromos]

But that's the real fallacy in their argument. Equibase is the non-profit entity of a partnership they have with the race tracks. So it doesn't matter who pays the chart callers - it's an expense and the more Equibase spends the less revenue the race tracks get. So it is a "moot" point as to who pays them.
I was just curious, since I was not heavily involved in racing until recently; but which seperate entity actually employs them track or Equibase, determines who has technical ownership of copyrights.
To paraphrase my earlier statements, the courts seem to say that what is coprightable material is that part which is subjective, and as such subject to interpretation and error.
I wonder what Equibase would say if they were told the only thing they have intellectual property ownership of is opinion which may be incorrect?
Is that what they are paranoid about?

[Tom]

Copywright or no, right or worng, we like it or not, the data is on THEIR hrd drives and we have no RIGHTS to it. they are free to do with it as they please, distribute is as they see fit, and you aren to going to change it.
How many thread are we going to have to have before you realize you are right and there is no prize?

[ezpace]

found any intellectual property at EQbase ROFLMAO

[mainardi]

Copywright or no, right or worng, we like it or not, the data is on THEIR hrd drives and we have no RIGHTS to it. they are free to do with it as they please, distribute is as they see fit, and you aren to going to change it.
How many thread are we going to have to have before you realize you are right and there is no prize?
They were right... and got triple the $1 award!!! :bang:

Tom... agreed. As for "poor old us", we want EVERYTHING for NOTHING. I have no problem forking over the $1 per card, as I've stated in other similar threads. The $1 price is a bargain, unless free is what you think you should pay!!! Puh-leeeez!!! :( :rolleyes:

[the_fat_man]

They were right... and got triple the $1 award!!! :bang:

Tom... agreed. As for "poor old us", we want EVERYTHING for NOTHING. I have no problem forking over the $1 per card, as I've stated in other similar threads. The $1 price is a bargain, unless free is what you think you should pay!!! Puh-leeeez!!! :( :rolleyes:

Let me get this straight:

I bet at a particular track (or my money ends up in their pools)

I thus pay a HUGE TAKEOUT

In other words, I PAY THEM TO BET

But that's not enough, I also need to PAY (THE TRACK) FOR RESULTS CHARTS?

I can understand paying for PPs but why do I need to pay for RESULT CHARTS?

When you're in a FRUGAL mood sometime or
perhaps not as eager to bend over and accept the status quo

take a look at the Hong Kong Jockey Club site

Video, charts, graphs, PPs, commentary, etc.

Bettors get all the above for free CAUSE they bet their money

It's actually embarrassing; not only in terms of the superior quality/quantity of the information but the state of the art technology, as well.

What's next, following your line of reasoning, casinos charging their patrons for decks of cards, die, roulette balls, etc. ?

Why are horse players so willing to bend over? Damn, we actually bet money too. Must be that our money is not good enough.

[standaman]

They were right... and got triple the $1 award!!! :bang:

Tom... agreed. As for "poor old us", we want EVERYTHING for NOTHING. I have no problem forking over the $1 per card, as I've stated in other similar threads. The $1 price is a bargain, unless free is what you think you should pay!!! Puh-leeeez!!! :( :rolleyes:

I don't think that price is the issue for some of the folks here. While you, Mainardi may have made a deal with the data providers in the past, others have been totally locked out.

Some like johnicard want to simply create handicap selections for the public. Some like johnicard really haven't made a penny from his creation. but Equibase/Trackmaster want him out of business and won't deal with him. I'm sure he is quite willing to pay for the data but they won't take his money. And I'm sure he's not the only one that was been shut out. I agree with Ecaroff. This is not the american way.

I remember something my attorney told me long ago. Take a simple idea like someone creates a chair and gets a patent for it. Along comes the next man and he puts rockers under the chair to make a rocking chair and he gets a patent. Then along comes another man and he adds wheels to the chair and he makes something useful to the handicap person and get a patent. Then along comes another and he add a motor to the wheelchair and he gets a patent. Then along comes another improvement and he gets a patent and on and on and on and on. This is how our patent system works. This is why our inventions get better and better and better. This is how it works and this is good!

[ecaroff]

Let me get this straight:

I bet at a particular track (or my money ends up in their pools)

I thus pay a HUGE TAKEOUT

In other words, I PAY THEM TO BET

But that's not enough, I also need to PAY (THE TRACK) FOR RESULTS CHARTS?

I can understand paying for PPs but why do I need to pay for RESULT CHARTS?

When you're in a FRUGAL mood sometime or
perhaps not as eager to bend over and accept the status quo

take a look at the Hong Kong Jockey Club site

Video, charts, graphs, PPs, commentary, etc.

Bettors get all the above for free CAUSE they bet their money

It's actually embarrassing; not only in terms of the superior quality/quantity of the information but the state of the art technology, as well.

What's next, following your line of reasoning, casinos charging their patrons for decks of cards, die, roulette balls, etc. ?

Why are horse players so willing to bend over? Damn, we actually bet money too. Must be that our money is not good enough.

================================================== ========
And don't forget - it is you're $2 wager that is used to purchase the equipment and pay the people to collect the data. And if you live another day you can pay some more to buy the data so again you can wager you're $2 so they can make you pay again for the next time. But if you want to use the data to create a pick selection sheet they might not allow you to buy the data even though you've already paid for it. WHAT? Don't you get it? I don't!

[KingChas]

Thank you.

Download one the PDF files at Equibase and see if you can do anything with it except print it. I have the solution but let's see if others out there can solve the problem.

Are you talking about using a screen snapshot or printing it then copying it back to a different folder..etc on the computer?

[traynor]

KingChas wrote: <Are you talking about using a screen snapshot or printing it then copying it back to a different folder..etc on the computer?>

I think the reference is to the fact that the pdfs are "encrypted," which prevents them from being readily converted into text (or HTML) format that can be more easily parsed. Most pdf files can be converted to a different format, then loaded into whatever application just like any other file.
Good Luck

[cj]

What possible use could people have for charts that would somehow damage Equibase? The only thing I can think of creating PPs from them. These, however, would lack any information on first time starters, Euro races, etc. Mabye A FEW people might use the results charts to make their own PPs, but I know that I wouldn't, and I doubt many others are either. The price for PPs is pretty small as it is and not worth the time in my opinion.

A much bigger problem is in file sharing. If they are worried about protecting past performance sales, they should start by protecting PAST PERFORMANCE files, not results charts. As I said earlier, and Joe Blow can file share DRF, BRIS, TSN, or whatever other company is out there, so who really gives a shit if you have access to RESULTS CHARTS. The whole thing makes absolutely no sense. It would be like the movie industry saying we know people are pirating movies, so we are going to deny them access to popcorn.

Here is what I use results charts for:

Create track pars
Create bias ratings
Assist in the creation of pace and speed variants
What is so terrible about any of that. I sell a program that uses this information, but guess what, it leads to the sale of more Equibase data!

Last thing, and I'm done on this subject. If they think going to secure PDFs is going to solve the problem, they are wrong. There are ways around any of this stuff electronically. I may even make it my mission to open source every attempt they make to stifle developers with free charts. And again, I am not talking about sharing files, which I do not do. I'm just using data I would gladly pay for if available.

[wanderius_thrax]

the equibase pdf past performances files are encrypted too. i used to parse pdf past performances files. i'm surprised many people ever bothered?? partly developed this method to go back over my collection of past files - had no other way of getting beyers in particular (still don't) since the only people that sell raw data PPs with beyers is DRF but DRF stupidly only sells their data files in an encrypted format for their formulator software which only works on windows...while i have a mac.

'you have a mac, screw you! linux? screw you!' nice attitude. even if i ran windows, why would i want to launch formulator just to be able to use the data in my own software.

now i download data from bris, who just sells it straight comma delimited for the time being.... the extra data sure comes in handy! man. handicapping with a printed DRF or PDF seems like suicide now!

although bris's version of 'comma delimited' is pretty weird. they quote everything, but still change all the internal commas to semi-colons? haha. why didn't they just export as tab delimited or | delimited?

scott

[Tom]

Charts lack speed and oace figures, so why in th eowrld would anyone go to the trouble of making PPs out of limited data chart files?:sleeping:

Maybe some of the "data whores" are lurking here, taking names and stuff, and would care to chime in with an explanation?
Nah, that would fall under Customer Service, which would violate thier essence. :kiss:

In addition to what CJ uses chart for, I also like the comments part, and BRIS comments are the best.

[kenwoodallpromos]

The charts is chronicologically the first place the lengths and comments are available, and they arew free for now, maybe that is the reason.

[OTM Al]

What's so ridiculous about all of this is that you can get at least a year's worth of past results from the NYRA tracks on their websites. It isn't Equibase stuff either. No one else does this to my knowledge. This silliness keeps up I might end up following only them.....of course when they franchise changes over it will probably all go away....

[mainardi]

I don't think that price is the issue for some of the folks here. While you, Mainardi may have made a deal with the data providers in the past, others have been totally locked out.
Not one thin dime do I get from any data providers... they all want you to sign in blood to make a few measly bucks. Not that it's wrong... it's just wrong for me.

Some like johnicard want to simply create handicap selections for the public. Some like johnicard really haven't made a penny from his creation. but Equibase/Trackmaster want him out of business and won't deal with him. I'm sure he is quite willing to pay for the data but they won't take his money.
As for Mr. Card, I don't really like what I read from him. Between self-promotion of his harness software to asking others to contribute (in a roundabout way) to his "cause", I'm not comfortable with his methods. I personally have never had problems with the data providers... maybe some of the things that I've posted previously -- acting professionally, asking for explanations -- would have worked for him... both now I'm sure that he's burned that bridge.

[Lou G]

If the goal of Equibase is to monopolize and control the dissemination of all past-performance data (as it appears to be), this will only hurt the industry in the long run. Maybe I'll start handicapping the Forex - historical data is free (or nearly so) from many sources...

[ecaroff]

If the goal of Equibase is to monopolize and control the dissemination of all past-performance data (as it appears to be), this will only hurt the industry in the long run. Maybe I'll start handicapping the Forex - historical data is free (or nearly so) from many sources...

I think we need to bet the races in Europe and place the wagers through off-shore accounts. This would certainly get the attention of the industry.

Check out the post: http://www.racingpost.co.uk/news/splash.sd
All kind of free pp and result info there.

[skate]

edcaroff;

did you say that K3 sold the "rights" to equibase?


thanks

[PaceAdvantage]

Maybe I'll start handicapping the Forex - historical data is free (or nearly so) from many sources...

Even tick-by-tick?

[Lou G]

Even tick-by-tick?

Of course, PA is correct - 1 minute data is not cheap, but it IS available in machine-readable format. Only the most avid day-traders are in need of such detail, however.

The point is, many market-based legal casinos (the stock and commodity markets, the Forex and others) recognize that availability of information is crucial to their goal - maximim number of dollars bet (or "invested") and administer their business accordingly. The track owners need to understand that obstructing the efforts of software developers is not in the best interest of the racing industry. IMHO, naturally.

[cj]

...The track owners need to understand that obstructing the efforts of software developers is not in the best interest of the racing industry. IMHO, naturally.

That is the smartest thing I've seen written about this Equibase thing. Convincing Equibase of that is another story.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Is "cpyright protection" actions by Equibase offensive or defensive? Are they trying to squash others or insecure about the validity of their stats?
Are the drf-Equibase variant, speed ratings, and running lines the best information possible or just the best they want us to use?

[Tom]

EB wold rather have that single dollar for a file than a lifetime of wagering by a potetnial customer.

When you think aobut it, if a fan base, wagering money every dy were really the business's objective, why on earth would any track charge admisison?
I pay to get into Saratoga every year to see the guys from here, NOT to see the races. If it were not for Toga, there is no way I would drive 4 hours and pay to get in.

[the_fat_man]

EB wold rather have that single dollar for a file than a lifetime of wagering by a potetnial customer.

When you think aobut it, if a fan base, wagering money every dy were really the business's objective, why on earth would any track charge admisison?
I pay to get into Saratoga every year to see the guys from here, NOT to see the races. If it were not for Toga, there is no way I would drive 4 hours and pay to get in.

It's all good:

1) ADMISSION to enter the track
2) PAY to park at the track
3) PAY for program/PPs (at track of otherwise)
4) SURcharge to bet (love the takeout)
5) SURcharge if you're a winner for the year (or exceed a single bet amount) ---TAXES---

No wonder everyone is doing the casino thing.

Sort of like watching the NBA playoffs and believing the hype that the officiating isn't BIASED (or at least extremely subpar).

When I see/hear the shit, I either MUTE OUT Mark Jackson or turn it off.

If I'm a player, and I need to deal with the officiating bias,
if I complain, I get hit with a fine. Let me break this down: OFFICIATING SUCKS (biased or pathetically subpar)
The system is presented as being FAIR, however
If I/my team get(s) skunked with calls (happens alot)
I complain
I'm hit with a fine


NBA players and thoroughbred speculators have something in common, after all. Of course, the NBA dudes actually make some money and
don't need to pay for BOXSCORES.

Maybe we can get David Stern to take over the tracks nationally.
Nice to see his product is losing support. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's all good:

1) ADMISSION to enter the track
2) PAY to park at the track
3) PAY for program/PPs (at track of otherwise)
4) SURcharge to bet (love the takeout)
5) SURcharge if you're a winner for the year (or exceed a single bet amount) ---TAXES---

No wonder everyone is doing the casino thing.

Yes, but at least the racetrack gives you a realistic chance to actually turn a profit in the long run. At a casino, unless you're playing poker or counting cards in BlackJack (good luck with that these days), you are 100% destined to lose money in the long run.

[the_fat_man]

Yes, but at least the racetrack gives you a realistic chance to actually turn a profit in the long run. At a casino, unless you're playing poker or counting cards in BlackJack (good luck with that these days), you are 100% destined to lose money in the long run.

Nice of them, isn't it?

If you're savy enough to actually make a decent living at the track,
it'll only cost you, what?, 75% of your potential earnings.

Why is it that Canadians don't pay tax on gambling winnings?

Why is it that Canada is north and Mexico is south? Reasonable mindset running the country and warm weather.

Talk about tough luck.

[Tom]

If you are in Detroit, Canada is south.:rolleyes:


Hey, it get confusing out there.....a mile from my house is the intersection of East Street nd North Road. East Street runs north/south and North Road runs East/West. Go figure.

[Overlay]

Yes, but at least the racetrack gives you a realistic chance to actually turn a profit in the long run.

An advantage that too many racegoers minimize or surrender altogether by forgetting that the real competition is the person next to them rather than the track (which puts a premium on outdoing the public's long-run accuracy in setting odds).

[sjk]

The current arrangement is bad for the future of racing but it goes a long way toward protecting those who have already developed their programs.

Last night a new poster (prank) was asking where he might find a racing database. He seemed knowlegeable enough that it he had a good-sized database and spent a few months working with it he could probably develop a profitable app in competition with the rest of us.

Not only is there no free database but even if you are willing to pay for it a database needs to be assembled a day at a time. If you wanted a year's worth of races to go to work on you need to wait until next spring to even get started.

One would need considerable confidence in the end result to invest the time and money to try.

[PaceAdvantage]

Not only is there no free database but even if you are willing to pay for it a database needs to be assembled a day at a time. If you wanted a year's worth of races to go to work on you need to wait until next spring to even get started.

That's not exactly true. If you are willing to process HTR data, you can get one's month's+ worth of data right now for every track running, all for the same price of $119 month.

Also, if you're willing to pay, as you say, BrisNET offers their data archive going back a ways.....

[Que]

LINK TO FREE FOREX DATA: http://ratedata.gaincapital.com/

[xfile]

LINK TO FREE FOREX DATA: http://ratedata.gaincapital.com/

Excuse me if I am ignorant but what is this stuff? Thanks

[PaceAdvantage]

It's an example of another industry (Foreign Exchange Traders) where at least some of the data is given free to its players for analysis, compared to the horse racing industry, which charges its players for most everything.

[Lou G]

Thanks, Que - there's so much Forex stuff available on the 'net that I haven't been able to scratch the surface yet. The link you posted is one I've not yet seen.

PA - right on with your post. Thoroughbred racing (along with the equity, commodities and forex markets) is one of the few places where some study and a modest capital risk can produce a decent profit for those willing to make the effort. I sure hate to see the greed of one company (EB) threatening the racing business - I have a lot of years and programming effort invested.

[twindouble]

It's an example of another industry (Foreign Exchange Traders) where at least some of the data is given free to its players for analysis, compared to the horse racing industry, which charges its players for most everything.

What would really crack me up is, by some remote chance all the racing data became available to handicapping software developers, there would be an explosion in different products for people to "tout". This site would overload and crash with so many to bitch about. It would be liken to Dot com stocks being touted by experts with no sound business model for profit and ripping the public off with IPO's up front. :D


T.D.