Equibase flexes its muscle

[michiken]

Just saw this on brisbet.

'This product was created, in part, with data supplied by Equibase Company LLC. User agrees not to make commercial use of or to redistribute this product'.

WTF?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Yesterday I used Brisnet "DRF Condensed PP's with Comments"- had M/L, class and speed ratings- none of which the same PP's had on DRF!!

[xfile]

Are you two guys smoking strange herbs from a strange pipe? :cool:

[cj]

Which product?

[michiken]

This disclaimer now appears on the profit line and track programs.

Not that the screen was overcrowded as it is!

[xfile]

This disclaimer now appears on the profit line and track programs.

Not that the screen was overcrowded as it is!

So? What's the signifigance to devote a thread to it?

[michiken]

The significance is to point out where things are heading with the data monopoly:

1. I used to enjoy reading DRF articles for free. Now they want a permanent cookie and life history to view them?

2. I used to enjoy reviewing the previous days race results for free. Equibase moved to encrypted pdf's and bris now requires java script and cookies?

3. I spent 4 years developing one of the 1st web based handicapping programs that would graph pace and speed figures. Bris was not interested sponsoring it because having 'their' data stored on another server would violate their agreement with Equibase.

4. Why do I have to punished for the off shores and chart parsers that chose to use/resell the free stuff for their own gain?

5. What's next for all of the other software developer's? Encrypted/DRM data? Legal agreements where they hold your house for collateral?

I just don't like the tunnel vision of the proprietary data monopoly network. It will not be good for racing nor will it benefit the average user. It will not attract new blood to the sport.

I for one have chosen to go back to being anonymous and maintain my privacy. No longer will equibase or bris get a dime from me. All my accounts have been cancelled.

[standaman]

You are 100% right.

There is only one way to stop all of this insanity and that is to break their monopoly. Organize and start a class action lawsuit. I will donate $2,500 as a start if someone wants to organize and get the process rolling.

[Tom]

It is really getting ridiculous - they have no repsect for loyal customers who are not stealing anything, just trying to use the products they have already PAID for.
MY DRF sub expires next week, and I will never renew. Last night, I tried to download chart - I ahve paid for unlimited chart, right? So I try to downloa the week's charts for four tracks, and had to go thorught the stuipid encryption thing three time for every two cards!
And they don't even have the courtesy to have it take you back to the download page, and even the file I selected didn ot download - I had to go back online later and get all the ones that I thought I downloaded.
And they could at least use a font you cant read - the one they have makes no distinction between a 9 and a g, and when you get it wrong, you have to go through the whole think all over again!
DRF has no class at all.
What I hope is their blatant disreguard to customers backfires and people start stealing/sharing/distributing ther stupid data all over the internet.
Wouldn't it serve DRF/BRIS right is someone were to blast their sites tight off the net on big race days - Derby, Breeder's cup, etc?
Wonder what the cost would be to the data whores? I would :lol: my ass off.

[michiken]

Wouldn't it serve DRF/BRIS right is someone were to blast their sites tight off the net on big race days - Derby, Breeder's cup, etc?
1. Tom a denial of service attack is a BRILLIANT idea however it is totally illegal and punishable by law.
Organize and start a class action lawsuit.....
2. I also agree, however a class action law suit is too expensive.

3. What legal rights and power do we have?

a. What if we had enough users to boycott all online data downloads and online wagering for the entire Derby Week in protest? This would be legal.

b. What if we all got off our fat asses and actual drove to the track or OTB to bet the derby? Maybe if we show our support the actual Tracks, it will send a message? I for one could use a hard copy program to handicap.

c. Doing these two small things would eliminate all commisions that they make on the wagers for one week.

As I have already cancelled my accounts, I guess I am the first volunteer to start the boycott........... :ThmbUp:

[kev]

Almost everybody is linked to equibase somehow right?? I think maybe only one The Ragozin Sheets are not, now Thorograph is cause of the trainer stats they have. The sheets do have to use their charts so maybe no one is free. If you only used their charts like they do, I guess you would still have to still deal with them uh? Maybe if they just would wacth tapes of the races then they wouldnt have to use their charts. Big E has everyone on lock-down. Give it time someone will come along and have data to sell like they do, but will they sell out?

[Tom]

Michiken -
While I would appluad that type of attack, I would not know how to do it myself. The proof of this is that DRF is still operting! :lol::lol:

[traynor]

What Equibase and BRIS offer is convenience, not data. It is catering to the handicapper who wants to point-and-click to download races that enables them to prosper. I see nothing wrong with a willing seller/willing buyer scenario.

The problem seems to be that while attracted by convenience, the convenience is not delivered--only the data. There may be alternatives. While some seem willing to put up money for a legal action, what is needed is time, and cohesion. It is possible to create alternatives. For one thing, reverse engineering a PDF is not rocket science. Encrypted PDF slows the process a bit, but not much. It is more an issue that the software developers are wired in to kickbacks from data providers as a revenue source, and design applications that require the daily fix from Equibase to function.

It doesn't seem difficult to join with a group of dedicated handicappers, create a spec for what you want, and go shopping for a developer who will produce it. I suggest the first constraint be that it must NOT require data downloads to function. Downloads, yes. Not the daily Equibase fix.

The issue is not so much the arrogance of Equibase (BRIS, DRF, etc.) as the willingness of the multitude to accept that arrogance as the price of admission. It is equivalent to an Escalade and an Excursion owner complaining about the price of gasoline, or the arrogance of Exxon (nice parachute for the retiring CEO of Exxon by the way).

I am not suggesting that everyone give up their favorite app. I am suggesting that the necessity to wire in to Equibase derives from the software applications used; the software applications used have deficiencies in design that require Equibase subscriptions. There are alternatives, but those alternatives require time and effort to implement.

Consider one (overly) simplistic alternative; 100 subscribers pay $120-150 each month for Equibase data. That is $12,000-15,000. That same 100 could organize sufficiently to hire (and double check, triple check, and validate) data entry from freely available sources by (my favorites, graduate students). All it takes is weaning the software developers away from THEIR commissions on subscriptions. As an alternative, draw up a set of specs and hire a WIPRO wannabe in Bangalore to produce it. If you choose to go that direction, it would be a simple matter to require that the app accept (and internally parse) PDF docs.

Why does that seem such an absurd idea? Because the Lone Ranger Syndrome is alive and well in handicapping. Despite all the benefit there would be from such action, it is unlikely to be taken. The preference is "my time is way too valuable for that, I'll just wait until someone else does it and give them a few bucks and enjoy the benefits." Which brings us around full circle, because that is the precise mindset that Equibase thrives on. Convenience for the Very Important People who cannot be bothered with complexity or inconvenience. If you want that convenience, you either pay the price, or you find an alternative. (Boycotting DRF during Derby Week is not an alternative, in any meaningful sense.)
Good Luck

[twindouble]

Traynor; I agree, I'm very happy with the products I buy and don't want to or have time to be bothered. It's worth the bucks I pay by a large margin.

[the_fat_man]

The significance is to point out where things are heading with the data monopoly:

1. I used to enjoy reading DRF articles for free. Now they want a permanent cookie and life history to view them?


3. I spent 4 years developing one of the 1st web based handicapping programs that would graph pace and speed figures. Bris was not interested sponsoring it because having 'their' data stored on another server would violate their agreement with Equibase.

I for one have chosen to go back to being anonymous and maintain my privacy. No longer will equibase or bris get a dime from me. All my accounts have been cancelled.

I've been kicking around the idea of parsing the free charts and then graphing the data (using Perl, where I would combine a number of different graphs). No pace/speed figures involved. These would be a nice preliminary (and then an augmenting document) to actually tripping the race or a standalone for those who don't watch races.

BRIS would bark at this?


From what I've seen of your past posts, you appear to be someone who's sophisticated technically. A result of that sophistication is the migration towards anonymity, as you're well aware of what can happen with personal info online. It's absolutely beyond comprehension to me that
these suppliers are patronized, given all the personal info they require. Needless to say, I'm not exactly confident in their ability to protect my anonymity.

Much to be said about doing it the old way and going to the track.
No one knows who you are. You don't pay taxes. You don't need to put up with online BS. etc.

Yeah, I really need to do all the extra work to read the DRF articles.

How many NYC cards per month, DRF? (Clue: it's not 20)

[JPinMaryland]

everyone could just get together and swap race data on the internet. That would be the easiest solution for the PPs. Obviously you still need someone to take betting action but if it is the information re-selling that is the issue the solution is to simply swap data with track watchers via the internet.

[the_fat_man]

everyone could just get together and swap race data on the internet. That would be the easiest solution for the PPs. Obviously you still need someone to take betting action but if it is the information re-selling that is the issue the solution is to simply swap data with track watchers via the internet.

What at wonderfully novel notion; and I'll bet (no pun intended) that you're
willing to get the ball rolling.

Aqueduct daily PPs, please.:ThmbUp:

[michiken]

BRIS would bark at this?

I know for a fact that I am not the only developer has been refuted trying to build a web based handicapping application................

Bris objected having THEIR data stored on my server even though I had several layers of protection to prevent data sharing:

a. I setup cookies, separate databases and storage folders. Storage folders would be encrypted with a md5 or sha1 hash to keep users from guessing the url.

b. I setup Htaccess and user specific passwords to protect the site from web crawlers and indexers.

Bris also objected to a user uploading data to the server other than theirs.

The uploads existed on my server for less than a minute - the time it takes to be imported from the drf to the database. I even offered to only keep the data stored in the database for the browser session - the database would be wiped clean at log out. They still balked.

The situation is that their good ole boy monopoly is set and they will protect their own as required. What does this say about the future of racing? Sell your soul or don't use our data.

Even though we pay for the data, I guess we don't really own it. We can view it, but they still refer to it as THEIRS. I guess all derivitive work will now become property of the Bris / Big E too?

Who knows how much of our personal data that they have harvested will eventually get sold to marketers when times get tougher?

[Tom]

Traynor - you are talking about HDW.
They are a lot like Equibase, but with quality control and no attitude.
Ron Tiller is the epitome of a good businessman - he treats his customers with respect, unlike EB, DRF, BRIS.

[Vegas711]

Good luck in getting horseplayers together you are going to need it. The truth is that people in general will not put in any effort whatsoever to stand up for what is right. Only a small minority will take action which means nothing gets changed.Look at how we are getting ripped off at the gas pump, you would think the phones of you local politician would be ringing off the hook, they are not and since there are only a few of us who bitch we get ignored.

[PaceAdvantage]

The problem nobody seems to want to address is the fact that we as a group are a VERY SMALL NICHE. You're talking about HARD CORE HORSEPLAYERS (a relatively small group to begin with) who use COMPUTERS to DOWNLOAD past performance data and charts and whatnot from the INTERNET (an even TINYER NICHE SUB-GROUP of the small initial group of HARD-CORE HORSEPLAYERS)!!!!

THAT'S WHY we have little to no power. And THAT'S WHY there isn't any competition beyond what exists at this moment.

[traynor]

PaceAdvantage wrote: <The problem nobody seems to want to address is the fact that we as a group are a VERY SMALL NICHE. You're talking about HARD CORE HORSEPLAYERS (a relatively small group to begin with) who use COMPUTERS to DOWNLOAD past performance data and charts and whatnot from the INTERNET (an even TINYER NICHE SUB-GROUP of the small initial group of HARD-CORE HORSEPLAYERS)!!!!>

I don't think the group is so small. Has anyone looked at the handles in Hong Kong? Or considered the effect of opening China to YouBet or equivalents? There are several groups of developers that believe the infusion of money from China may be the best thing that has happened to horse racing in many years. Most of it will be by way of handhelds or cell phones, but that is another issue entirely. I don't think there is any shortage of people willing to bet on horse races, or to use software apps if it can be established that those apps actually enable them to make a profit.

The difficulty is in convincing people to spend the time and effort necessary to handicap with little or no reward at the end.
Good Luck

[traynor]

Vegas711 wrote: <Good luck in getting horseplayers together you are going to need it. The truth is that people in general will not put in any effort whatsoever to stand up for what is right. Only a small minority will take action which means nothing gets changed.>

Nope. It just means they have not found the right organizer. Ultimately, the issue is one of self-preservation, and self-interest. All that is necessary is to show them how it is in their best interest to seek and find an alternative.

I am sure you are aware of the old Russian question, "How do you cook a frog?" The answer, of course, is that you put it into a pot of cool water and turn the heat on low. Complacency is as serious an issue for humans as it is for frogs. It seems to be making a considerable profit for Equibase.
Good Luck

[traynor]

Tom wrote: <Traynor - you are talking about HDW.>

Am I mistaken, or are they re-sellers for Equibase? Meaning that the same issues of commercial use would apply to their data that apply to Equibase and other re-sellers. "Commercial use" is ambiguous, and subject to broad interpretation. For example, this site has ads that generate revenue--would it be considered a commercial site?
Good Luck

[ceejay]

Data is proprietary. Period. The tracks collect it using their equipment and via equibase own it. Get used to it. Wanna own data? Get a stopwach and collect it yourself.

I see this same issue in my business-- oil and gas exploration. There's one company that takes page-size public filings and transposes it on 3x5 cards and sells them. Another company takes those same filings and photocopies them at the regulator's office and sells copies of those copies. Copies for in-house use are legal but resale is prohibited.

[traynor]

JPinMaryland wrote: <everyone could just get together and swap race data on the internet. That would be the easiest solution for the PPs. Obviously you still need someone to take betting action but if it is the information re-selling that is the issue the solution is to simply swap data with track watchers via the internet.>

Essentially, that is all it takes. The first big issue; most "handicappers" are "horse players" who pursue handicapping as recreational activity. Jim Selvidge actually tried to put together such a group some years ago, with a remarkable lack of success. It seems that when handicapping is considered "work" it takes all the fun out of it. Personally, I think it is losing that takes all the fun out of it, and almost any amount of effort or work is justified if the rewards are sufficient. I thought Gordon Gecko's "Greed is good" speech in "Wall Street" was great.
Good Luck

[traynor]

ceejay wrote: <Data is proprietary. Period. The tracks collect it using their equipment and via equibase own it. Get used to it. Wanna own data? Get a stopwach and collect it yourself.>

Only the publication of the data is proprietary, not the data itself. Wasn't that the issue of a long, involved thread about a week ago? Or are we back to the days of "They say it, so it must be true"?

Remember the whole long involved issue about the telephone directories? Simply gathering observations about events in reality do not automatically confer ownership. The statement that "Data is proprietary. Period." is incorrect.
Good Luck

[MONEY]

[QUOTE=ceejay]I see this same issue in my business-- oil and gas exploration.QUOTE]

Is it your fault that the gas prices are so high?:mad:
Or, is it because of you that the gas prices are not higher?:)

[mainardi]

Data is proprietary. Period. The tracks collect it using their equipment and via equibase own it. Get used to it. Wanna own data? Get a stopwach and collect it yourself.

I see this same issue in my business-- oil and gas exploration. There's one company that takes page-size public filings and transposes it on 3x5 cards and sells them. Another company takes those same filings and photocopies them at the regulator's office and sells copies of those copies. Copies for in-house use are legal but resale is prohibited.
I work in software, and for the most part for companies whose data is proprietary. Put in a different context, the data IS the company. Imagine if my current company (a BIG home loan company) didn't keep their data protected from redistribution? Anybody could get their hands on it and do whatever they wanted with it. Not Good!

I does seem unfair that a few bad apples spoil it for the rest of those using the data in a legal way. Look, I sell handicapping software that uses the horse data, and when I read the various agreements, I decided to design it so that I wouldn't run into potential data ownership conflicts. They want you to profit from the use of the data, and not the data itself. In the business world, that's pretty standard. We (the bettors) don't see it as a business, but Equibase (and others) are in the business of DATA.

It stinks, but it's reality... :(

[PointsmanD]

[QUOTEOnly the publication of the data is proprietary, not the data itself. Wasn't that the issue of a long, involved thread about a week ago?[/QUOTE]

Yes. It's here:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26745.html

[traynor]

Mainardi wrote: <Imagine if my current company (a BIG home loan company) didn't keep their data protected from redistribution? Anybody could get their hands on it and do whatever they wanted with it. Not Good!>

There is a difference between "internal" data, about the org and its activities, and "external" data that is simply generated from observations, or gathered. The first "may" be proprietary or may not; consider the "internal" reports of tobacco companies, and the repercussions of such. Or Enron. Or any of dozens of other examples in which "proprietary" data was (forcibly) made public.

The main issue here is the "external" data, gathered in the form of observations. The key point is not whether Equibase gathers the information or not; the issue is whether it is possible for others to gather essentially the same information--the answer to which is, "Yes."
Good Luck

[ceejay]

[QUOTE=ceejay]I see this same issue in my business-- oil and gas exploration.QUOTE]

Is it your fault that the gas prices are so high?:mad:
Or, is it because of you that the gas prices are not higher?:)
I cannot control gasoline prices, or crude or natural gas either. But make no mistake, high prices are good for the industry and my bank account! BTW, these prices also increase reserves, but that's for an OT thread....

[ceejay]

ceejay wrote: <Data is proprietary. Period. The tracks collect it using their equipment and via equibase own it. Get used to it. Wanna own data? Get a stopwach and collect it yourself.>

Only the publication of the data is proprietary, not the data itself. Wasn't that the issue of a long, involved thread about a week ago? Or are we back to the days of "They say it, so it must be true"?

Remember the whole long involved issue about the telephone directories? Simply gathering observations about events in reality do not automatically confer ownership. The statement that "Data is proprietary. Period." is incorrect.
Good Luck
OK. perhaps I should have said data base model and data store rather than the information itself. If you get the posted times/positions yourself and input them into a data base, then I guess that they are yours. Like the fact that a well was drilled to a particular well at a particular location is not proprietary but the card or digital file with the info is. But I'll leave that to that other thread....

[mainardi]

The main issue here is the "external" data, gathered in the form of observations. The key point is not whether Equibase gathers the information or not; the issue is whether it is possible for others to gather essentially the same information--the answer to which is, "Yes."
I suppose the answer should be YES... at least for your own personal use. I don't know if copyright laws protect the data from commercial distribution, but it would seem pretty hard to support their arguement.

That makes me wonder if the same is true in all sports. If you hired the people to RELIABLY chart each horse race, you'd have to have a pretty decent amount of money to pay them enough to pay attention. But in baseball, you could probably chart a game with just a few people. So, does baseball allow people to do this in order to make money? I'd be interested to see what MLB has to say about the idea... probably some legal-weasel words on your ticket that prohibits it.

[standaman]

Look, I sell handicapping software that uses the horse data, and when I read the various agreements, I decided to design it so that I wouldn't run into potential data ownership conflicts. They want you to profit from the use of the data, and not the data itself. In the business world, that's pretty standard.

Can you explain this in more detail? From what I understand, you wrote a handicapping system and people then download files from the data providers and run it through your software - correct? Can any developer do this or does one need permission from the data providers? Do the data providers receive any dollars from you directly? If you have 1,000 people and they download Belmont 1,000 times, do the data providers give you any kickback because of all the business you brought to them? Forgive me for all the questions as I'm just trying to understand this.

[mainardi]

Can you explain this in more detail? From what I understand, you wrote a handicapping system and people then download files from the data providers and run it through your software - correct? Can any developer do this or does one need permission from the data providers? Do the data providers receive any dollars from you directly? If you have 1,000 people and they download Belmont 1,000 times, do the data providers give you any kickback because of all the business you brought to them? Forgive me for all the questions as I'm just trying to understand this.
Here are the detailzzzzz :sleeping:

1. Yes, you are correct about how Hor$ense works. No databases to build (see #2 below for one big reason why).

2. Any developer can do this, as long as they check with the data providers to make sure that no copyright laws will be violated. BRIS and TSN (owned by the same parent company) do not care if you use the data, but they do NOT want you to resell the data (either in its original form or in a repackaged form). Also, if I want to, I can make selections from the data and sell them... but not the actual data.

3. I do not have to pay the data providers for the right to use their data, and that's because I do not attempt to store it for resale puropses.

4. I do not get any money for the downloaded data, although I could if I wanted to restrict my program to only one data provider (they all like to reward people for exclusive rights).

[Indulto]

I do not get any money for the downloaded data, although I could if I wanted to restrict my program to only one data provider (they all like to reward people for exclusive rights).Could your customers receive a discount on data if they purchased through you (not unlike rebates based on volume)?

[standaman]

2. Any developer can do this, as long as they check with the data providers to make sure that no copyright laws will be violated. BRIS and TSN (owned by the same parent company) do not care if you use the data, but they do NOT want you to resell the data (either in its original form or in a repackaged form). Also, if I want to, I can make selections from the data and sell them... but not the actual data.

Minardi - here is what one of the data providers says:
As part of our agreement with Equibase, we are licensed only to provide data to customers who use that data for their personal use. In order to comply with that agreement, we require all of our customers to agree, before installing our software and using our service, to certain terms and conditions for the use of our service and our data files. Please remember that as part of that agreement, to which you have already agreed, you may not use the program or any data you receive from us for any commercial use. You may not create derivative works from the software or the data. Such derivative works shall include, but shall not be limited to, copies of the printed output of the software, selections or selection services, odds lines for races, race worksheets, or other derivative products or services offered for sale.

Minardi - seems to me like you are in violation of these terms. What am I missing here? Thank you.

[cj]

Equibase could never, ever, in a million years prove someone is using their data to make selections.

[xfile]

Equibase seems like an Oil company who wants to control all of the oil. They already distribute all of the horse data. I don't think equibase wants to push their power around to the extent that they will eventually have somebody go up against them in anti-trust and end up having to split what they already have. The government has ruled monopoly in an industry is unlawful. Eq already have a monopoly. If some entity were to be forced up against them Equibase will lose. No doubt at all. And the CEO at Trackmaster is going to cause trouble for Equibase someday. He's going to push the wrong group of people one day. It's already starting. You see all the similar posts on this board. The natives are getting restless and if the natives chose to go against equibase...equibase will lose an anti-trust suit. I don't think Equibase is that stupid. :cool:

[twindouble]

Here I go again, more than likely off base or just plain stubborn. I can't conceive what the hoopla is all about when it comes to this type of data. I firmly believe the majority of it is useless. Current information is where it's at and that can be had readily at very little cost. To suggest taking on those that provide the information will be an easy task don't know what they are getting involved in. Anyone who's interested in creating their own systems or format, that even resembles what's out there is in for a fight and a costly one. Now think about what I said, "resembles".

Don't get me wrong, those here that have the technical computer skills and wish to break into that market it can I'm sure be very profitable and I also understand the disdain for a monopolistic condition.

I personally think you would need a more innovative creative approach to achieve that goal. Exactly what that is I don't know at this point haven't gave it much thought. I do know one thing, starting out small is the way to go. Plus I would tap into those people that have been around the game for long time obviously, with or without the tech skills.


T.D.

[Tom]

Sounds like you have download all the data you want, so long as you never look at it, touch it, open it, tell anyone you have it, or save it your hard drive.

Anyone rember Happy Fun Ball from SNK?

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/tv/sat-night-live/commercials/section-1.html


:lol:DO NOT taunt Happy fun Ball!

[JackS]

I think CJ's right. Once a race has been run, data becomes historical. To report that a horse won by a length or a nose would only be reporting what actually happened. Anyone who saw the race would be reporting the same outcome. The same could be said with all internal fractions. Anyone with a stopwatch should come to about the same conclusions as any professional data provider. How in the world could Equibase or anyone else ever prove that only "they" possess this information?

[twindouble]

Sounds like you have download all the data you want, so long as you never look at it, touch it, open it, tell anyone you have it, or save it your hard drive.

Anyone rember Happy Fun Ball from SNK?

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/tv/sat-night-live/commercials/section-1.html


:lol:DO NOT taunt Happy fun Ball!

Ok, so what I'm suggesting can't be done so lets just bomb the bastards. :D

[standaman]

2. Any developer can do this, as long as they check with the data providers to make sure that no copyright laws will be violated. BRIS and TSN (owned by the same parent company) do not care if you use the data, but they do NOT want you to resell the data (either in its original form or in a repackaged form). Also, if I want to, I can make selections from the data and sell them... but not the actual data.

Minardi - I hope I have not created a problem for you but you really do seem to be violating the Terms of Use with the data providers. How have you managed to keep out of trouble with these people yet the harness guy is having all kinds of problems with Trackmaster. It would appear that anyone who has developed software for commerical use is in violation. Why is it that some of the data providers go after some people and not others? Is there different rules for different people? What's your secret? Do you have written consent from BRIS? I'm really confused. From what I understand ANYONE who has written software for commercial value that uses any of the data is in violation. In reality, that's appears to be EVERYONE - you can only use the information for yourself. Can anyone out there explain all of this to "litte ole me" in easy to understand English?

BRIS States:
5. CUSTOMER'S RESPONSIBILITIES AND WARRANTIES. It is expressly understood that no part of any information received from BRIS may be reproduced, resold, published, transmitted, disseminated, distributed or commercially exploited by the Customer in its existing or any altered form or by any means, including, without limitation, electronically or mechanically,without the prior written consent of BRIS. Customer agrees not to use the information to conduct any commercial business without the prior written consent of BRIS or any activity prohibited by law.

[JackS]

The terms of Bris seem to suggest that it might be in violation for anyone to independantly collect their own data. It also appears that they have tried to cover all bases by using the term "any existing or altered form".
Perhaps they can claim rights to their format but I still can't comprehend exclusive rights to data.

[twindouble]

The terms of Bris seem to suggest that it might be in violation for anyone to independantly collect their own data. It also appears that they have tried to cover all bases by using the term "any existing or altered form".
Perhaps they can claim rights to their format but I still can't comprehend exclusive rights to data.

Regardless of Tom's happy ball, I still think where there's a will there's a way to get around them without going to court. Give me time to think about it, maybe I can come up with something, I just might suprise you all. I took on three major oil companys and pulled a prime piece of property out from under them, that was about a 500-1 shot and yes, I did the ground work on my own. Not bragging here but I'm not the type tuck my tail and run. This is far from being my fight, I'm just an old oak tree that's weathered many storms. You all can just cut me down here and now on this subject or suggest I give it some serious thought. That or just have some good laughs. :D

[Johnicard]

I am willing to donate $2500 to a clas action lawsuit. My website is catpicks.net and AXCIS and Trackmaster continues to harass me over unenforcable proprietary rights.

[mainardi]

Minardi - I hope I have not created a problem for you but you really do seem to be violating the Terms of Use with the data providers. How have you managed to keep out of trouble with these people yet the harness guy is having all kinds of problems with Trackmaster. It would appear that anyone who has developed software for commerical use is in violation. Why is it that some of the data providers go after some people and not others? Is there different rules for different people? What's your secret? Do you have written consent from BRIS? I'm really confused. From what I understand ANYONE who has written software for commercial value that uses any of the data is in violation. In reality, that's appears to be EVERYONE - you can only use the information for yourself. Can anyone out there explain all of this to "litte ole me" in easy to understand English?

BRIS States:
5. CUSTOMER'S RESPONSIBILITIES AND WARRANTIES. It is expressly understood that no part of any information received from BRIS may be reproduced, resold, published, transmitted, disseminated, distributed or commercially exploited by the Customer in its existing or any altered form or by any means, including, without limitation, electronically or mechanically,without the prior written consent of BRIS. Customer agrees not to use the information to conduct any commercial business without the prior written consent of BRIS or any activity prohibited by law.
The key phrase is "prior written consent of BRIS", and I long ago received prior written consent from each of the data providers. That's all it takes... and when I explained to them what I was doing, they had no problem with it. In fact, I'm sure that they'd grant consent to anybody that could generate more business for them!

[mainardi]

I am willing to donate $2500 to a clas action lawsuit. My website is catpicks.net and AXCIS and Trackmaster continues to harass me over unenforcable proprietary rights.
Dude, why don't you just ask them for permission? If they say NO, then tell them to explain to you precisely why not. If you're doing something that they consider illegal, you probably don't have a chance to beat them in a lawsuit. You've already stated your problem in two other threads, and people have told you that harness info can be found for free. Am I missing something?

[traynor]

mainardi wrote: <The key phrase is "prior written consent of BRIS", and I long ago received prior written consent from each of the data providers.>

Wow. Did you ever take a class in diplomacy? All this fol-de-rol back and forth and you hit it right on the head; it may be that the entire issue can be resolved amicably by simply telling them up front what you want to do, why, and how, and if they have a complaint, to explain to you what it is. It seems so elegantly obvious (once it is pointed out) that I am shocked that I never even considered it before. It all goes to show how a narrow point of view can diminish both the perspective and the options available. Thanks for the insight.
Good Luck

[standaman]

mainardi wrote: Wow. Did you ever take a class in diplomacy? All this fol-de-rol back and forth and you hit it right on the head; it may be that the entire issue can be resolved amicably by simply telling them up front what you want to do, why, and how, and if they have a complaint, to explain to you what it is. It seems so elegantly obvious (once it is pointed out) that I am shocked that I never even considered it before. It all goes to show how a narrow point of view can diminish both the perspective and the options available. Thanks for the insight.
Good Luck

One thing you MIGHT have overlooked: What if they say "NO" and then steal your idea. I know for a fact this has happened to others and I'd be willing to bet there are people on this site that this has actually happened to. Any takers?

[linrom1]

Minardi - I hope I have not created a problem for you but you really do seem to be violating the Terms of Use with the data providers. How have you managed to keep out of trouble with these people yet the harness guy is having all kinds of problems with Trackmaster. It would appear that anyone who has developed software for commerical use is in violation. Why is it that some of the data providers go after some people and not others? Is there different rules for different people? What's your secret? Do you have written consent from BRIS? I'm really confused. From what I understand ANYONE who has written software for commercial value that uses any of the data is in violation. In reality, that's appears to be EVERYONE - you can only use the information for yourself. Can anyone out there explain all of this to "litte ole me" in easy to understand English?

BRIS States:
5. CUSTOMER'S RESPONSIBILITIES AND WARRANTIES. It is expressly understood that no part of any information received from BRIS may be reproduced, resold, published, transmitted, disseminated, distributed or commercially exploited by the Customer in its existing or any altered form or by any means, including, without limitation, electronically or mechanically,without the prior written consent of BRIS. Customer agrees not to use the information to conduct any commercial business without the prior written consent of BRIS or any activity prohibited by law.


Such statements are only made for fools to follow. Those who choose not to follow such rubbish don't have to worry what all this legalse means. :jump:

[Koko]

Being only a Bris user and not a developer maybe I'm ignorant of what their intent really is, but here are my thoughts on the matter none the less.

The data provider's main source of revenue is selling data if I'm not mistaken. They also get much smaller streams of revenue from selling selection sheets.

They are naturally going to use terminology that covers the broadest possible restrictions on reuse, but that does not mean that they are worried about all possible commercial users of the data in the same degree.

Their biggest concern, I would think is someone who buys their data and turns around and sells it as is to other potential subscribers, thus stealing clients who feed their main source of revenue, that's only natural and reasonable and I'd think they could easily win that case hands down.
There are probably few that are that bold or stupid to try to use the data in that manner anyway I'd think.

Then presumeably you could have a software developer who buys the data from them and rather than having his clients download from the data provider daily to feed the program, would instead distribute the manipulated data via one means or another to his subscribers daily, thus taking clients that presumeably would be buying daily from the data provider. Although the developer who's buying their data daily, could theoretically be gleaning all that data from some other source and using that other source of data to feed his program, if a full discovery process were conducted, they could indeed prove that he was using the data provided by the data provider to directly feed his program.

Naturally, the typical developer is not doing the above procedure, but legitimately forces his clients to buy the data from the data providers to feed his program, so they are indeed getting their revenue from his clients daily. I would think that the data providers would have little to be up in arms about, since the developers clients are perhaps buying a cheaper product from the data provider than they might otherwise be doing if they didnt' have the developers software, but they have a reason to require a product of the data providers on a daily basis.

I would think they would not generally have a big issue with developers acting in this manner. I would think that they'd have little to go on in a court case. Although you may have used their data initially to create your program, your clients are the ones buying data directly from them daily and using it for their own purposes. Even if they could prove that you used their data while constructing your program, you selling your program is in no way selling their data, although their data did indeed play a part in helping you design your program, so if somehow they could link that argument to the revenue you get from selling your program, but that seems pretty much a longshot.


Then you have the selection sheet producers, who do in fact compete with the data providers selection sheets, although since that represents a relatively smaller portion of their revenue, they may not be so intent on preventing a selection sheet provider from operating assuming he was simply making selections and not sharing the actual data bits that he bought from the data provider. Theoretically I suppose, if through discovery they could show that you were using their data and only providing selections, you may well lose the case based on the language you agreed to by buying their data.

So I guess the question is, who are they really after, because you can't simply presume by their broad language that they realistically want to or believe they can shut down all of the above mentioned users.

[PurplePower]

The significance is to point out where things are heading with the data monopoly:

.........
3. I spent 4 years developing one of the 1st web based handicapping programs that would graph pace and speed figures. Bris was not interested sponsoring it because having 'their' data stored on another server would violate their agreement with Equibase.
...............
I for one have chosen to go back to being anonymous and maintain my privacy. No longer will equibase or bris get a dime from me. All my accounts have been cancelled.Where can I find your free graphs for the tracks I want to play? And, I'm sure you won't mind if I buy a graph from you for $5.00 (or whatever) that I turn around and sell that graph to my client base (say 200 +/-) for $2.00 per? I appreciate you spending 4 years developing your program so that I can now benefit from your intellectual investment without having to do any mental work myself.

I know I'm a minority in this group. Equibase has at least two chart callers at tracks they cover and they pay them a salary and benefits. They have equipment at each track and they have a capital investment at headquarters in Lexington. And, collection of the data is NOT proprietary. Anyone that wants to can hire a crew (Ragozin was mentioned earlier too, and they have their own race watchers at various tracks to gather information for their product) and gather their own data. The track may not give you space in the press box to set up, but they can't stop you from sitting in the box seats and charting away.

To paraphrase the original "Bard" - me thinks handicappers whine too much.

[cj]

So Purple Power, who exactly is "Equibase"? Don't you think the takeout is enough that we shouldn't have to pay for raw data? We already pay for every other damn thing in this game. Now the jocks want us to pay their health insurance! The same idiot jockeys that allowed themselves to be fleeced out of their money and let their insurance expire. Where does it stop?

As I've said many times here, the industry should be dying to get PPs in as many hands as they possibly can, for nothing. I don't think you are at SHRP anymore, but if that track posted free PPs online every night they run, the handle would go up, almost guarenteed.

[ecaroff]

I know I'm a minority in this group. Equibase has at least two chart callers at tracks they cover and they pay them a salary and benefits. They have equipment at each track and they have a capital investment at headquarters in Lexington.
To paraphrase the original "Bard" - me thinks handicappers whine too much.

Just wait a minute. Equibase is not some corporate entity that has invested captial in an effort to make a dollar for itself. Equibase is the Non-Profit member of a partnership with the race tracks. Supposedly any profits made by the partnership go back to the race tracks - not to Equibase. On paper Equibase may pay the chart callers, etc. but in reality it is the tracks that are paying for ALL of this. The more Equibase spends on expenses the less the race tracks bring in. So don't give me all this bull that Equibase has all of this capital investment, etc. It is the race tracks that are actually paying all the expenses whether it be chart callers, equipment, etc.

And guess who gives the race tracks the money to do all of this.

[ecaroff]

............And after the racing fan pays for all the data collection, the fan is only allowed to use the data as dictated by Equibase.

[PurplePower]

So Purple Power, who exactly is "Equibase"? Don't you think the takeout is enough that we shouldn't have to pay for raw data? We already pay for every other damn thing in this game. Now the jocks want us to pay their health insurance! The same idiot jockeys that allowed themselves to be fleeced out of their money and let their insurance expire. Where does it stop?

As I've said many times here, the industry should be dying to get PPs in as many hands as they possibly can, for nothing. I don't think you are at SHRP anymore, but if that track posted free PPs online every night they run, the handle would go up, almost guarenteed.You are right about me not being at SHRP any more. I'll put something in the Off Topics thread about my new position in Lexington. And I agree about the jockey debacle. I doubt that free PP's would increase SHRP's handle enough to improve the purses, but it might. The cost of PP's for an individual track is a small part of a bankroll. I don't know if we still can get free Greyhound PP's, but when I was in Houston I got email from players saying that Gulf Greyhound had FREE programs (with PP"S) available online (as I think all Greyhound tracks did). And with Greyhounds we don't have to worry about a jockey causing three dogs to go rolling in the first turn, but doesn't seem to have done much to help their overall handle.
Ecaroff said: Just wait a minute. Equibase is not some corporate entity that has invested captial in an effort to make a dollar for itself. Equibase is the Non-Profit member of a partnership with the race tracks. Supposedly any profits made by the partnership go back to the race tracks - not to Equibase. On paper Equibase may pay the chart callers, etc. but in reality it is the tracks that are paying for ALL of this. The more Equibase spends on expenses the less the race tracks bring in. So don't give me all this bull that Equibase has all of this capital investment, etc. It is the race tracks that are actually paying all the expenses whether it be chart callers, equipment, etcI don't know details of the Equibase corporate entity. I do know that they have a lot of computers on the first floor of the Jockey Club building in Lexington. I also know that SHRP had to pay Equibase for access to the program data for not only their live racing, but also for all the programs printed for simulcasting. When Equibase first started there were two rooms in the SHRP press box - one for DRF chart callers and one for Equibase callers. After the "buy out" or merger or whatever that corporate realignment, only the Equibase callers remained and the old DRF area was added to an adjoining suite to form a "Director's suite" that only sold out during December for Christmas parties and about 3 other big nights a year.

Equibase callers are paid by Equibase and not by SHRP (but as ecaroff said ultimately the tracks pay the expenses through their contributions to Equibase.) My point in my original post is "why aren't all the data from all the handicapping programs developed by the great players on this site not posted here for free". After all, is is not a "monopoly" to be the only one to have a list of pace and/or speed figures that might ferret out a 50-1 long shot winner? And is it not that very "monopoly" that enables us to make money at the tracks? And what would we do if Equibase suddenly decided it was too much trouble to provide this data? Just seemed to me like we sometimes make much ado about stuff we don't really want changed - we just don't want to pay for it. Simple answer is we don't HAVE to. We can go out and get the information ourselves.

[michiken]

Where can I find your free graphs for the tracks I want to play? And, I'm sure you won't mind if I buy a graph from you for $5.00 (or whatever) that I turn around and sell that graph to my client base (say 200 +/-) for $2.00 per? I appreciate you spending 4 years developing your program so that I can now benefit from your intellectual investment without having to do any mental work myself.

I Call to my beta testers to back me up on this.............

Your misconception here was that I was going to charge for the software/website when I actually gave a handful of beta testers access for FREE. Not one dime exchanged hands.

I wrote the web based software to introduce some new handicapping methods and tried to PROMOTE racing. I wanted to prove that you could import the data and handicap the races with only a web browser. My intent was to partner with BRIS in order to make a lousy 20 cent commision on downloaded data files IF the person signed up thru my sites affiliate program. Since most cappers here already have accounts that amount would have been minimal at best.

By making the site FREE (as in beer), I thought I had a business model that would help discourage the sharing of data. I could of even made it harder by watermarking all my graphs.

I therefore am not publishing any data or graphs nor would I be selling them. I would only be providing a service for parsing that data and organizing it into reports. Each user would have to buy their own data as they do now. Needless to say, they bris didn't buy into it due to its ties with the big monopoly. The fact is that they seemed to be afraid of web applications.

Since I will be closing the site from the public at the end of April, here is the link for those of you who haven't had the chance to see it. It is intentionally not hyperlinked to keep the search engines from trying to index it.

Terminal Velocity Handicapping Horses with Linux - go to termv dot com

At the login prompt, you will need to enter:

user: terminal
pass: velocity


(http://termv.com/)

[Tom]

Michicken is 100% correct. I bought and paid for every file I used myself. Ken did not provide me with anything other than use to his program ( very good, I might add).

Equibase trying to put guys likethis out of business is a joke. they should be encouraging enterpruners fo rthe good fo the industry.

I find it hard to believe that this industry is still in business with all the dolts running it.

Likle DRF - they have the ultimate solution to file sharing - a program that prevents ANYONE from getting their data! :lol::lol::lol:
Must be EB employees of the month.

(Unsolisited comments)

[mainardi]

Back when I started using the form for my handicapping, you forked over $2.50 and were able to look at PPs from 2 or 3 different tracks (SoCal, NorCal and sometimes Turf Paradise)... but you could only wager at your home track.

Now, for the $4 for a form (or whatever DRF charges now) that has 3 or 4 tracks (of which you might only want to play one of them), I can take that money -- WITHOUT HAVING TO LEAVE THE HOUSE -- and buy 4 files for tracks that I want to play. And since I'm 40 miles from the nearest wagering location, I watch on TV and bet over the Internet.

So, back to my title. The difference is that I'm getting more value for my money, by only paying for the tracks that I want to play without driving all over town looking for a place that sells the form. If we're going to use revisionist history, let's go all the way back to the old form-only days and demand to get them for free. Good luck with that! I am no doubt in the minority on this one, but if you base your complaint on the reality that is the old paper form, then you'll realize what a good deal the data files are.

For those of you that are using data files to generate information that others can use (for free or for some set price), you could get it approved if you just make the effort to explain in a PROFESSIONAL manner what you're doing, and specifically point out that you are NOT reselling their data. What do you have to lose? You can't score if you don't shoot.

BTW... for those that believe that by explaining to them what you're planning on doing with the data and then having them reject it AND then steal it, that's just folly. If you knew how long it takes to develop commercially ready software, you'd never get involved (I did it because I originally wanted the software for my own; only later did I clean it up to be able to sell it). And if you think that they just have programmers sitting around waiting to code the idea that they stole from you, think again. It's more likely the case that they were already working on something similar, and the timing of it looks like they "stole" it.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Is there any reason why someone cannot just sell entries with their own value odds, and work a deal with CJ, Brown, and others to put various figures beside the horse for each race following the post position of that race instead of all the industry-generated stuff?