Good News from the conservatives (not)

[ljb]

Here is a link that explains how our conservative Republicans are doing. Seems they have totally lost their way.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060412/ap_on_go_ot/monthly_budget_3

[Tom]

85 billion?
Wow!
Let's see, what percentage is that of the three trillioin thrown at pverty by the desm in thier FAILED war on pverty?

Factor out the crap in the budgetfrom the libs failed programs and we probably shoed a profit!

[Ponyplayr]

85 billion?
Wow!
Let's see, what percentage is that of the three trillioin thrown at pverty by the desm in thier FAILED war on pverty?

Factor out the crap in the budgetfrom the libs failed programs and we probably shoed a profit!

Good one:lol:

[Lefty]

Tom, good one but it was over 5 Trillion. Adds up after a while.

[Tom]

Tom, good one but it was over 5 Trillion. Adds up after a while.


Dang!
I must have blinked! :lol:

[ljb]

85 billion?
Wow!
Let's see, what percentage is that of the three trillioin thrown at pverty by the desm in thier FAILED war on pverty?

Factor out the crap in the budgetfrom the libs failed programs and we probably shoed a profit!
I need some clarification here Tom. When did our government spend three trillion on a war of poverty ? Can you provide any documentation of this statement ? And can you be more specific on "the libs failed programs"?

[Lefty]

Johnson's "The Great Society"and all its failed prgms. Since then we have spent over 5 trillion on poverty and guess what? We still have poor people.
Here in Vegas the more homeless shelters we build the more homeless we get. Hmmmmm...

[Tom]

There ya go - start tearing them down and you will end pverty! :jump:


Lbj, I don't have time for your stupid little games - go play with yourself.
If you don't know about the war on poverty and the costs, then your are dumber than you pretned to be.
I already gave a free profile of 46's defective personality - no more gratis.

[46zilzal]

I already gave a free profile of 46's defective personality - no more gratis.
BASED UPON NOTHING

[Lefty]

BASED UPON NOTHING
I think he's based it on all of your posts. Hey, you might be right...

[ljb]

So basically Tom and Lefty have no real reply to my question. Just what I thought. More neocon rhetoric with no substance. Try to spin off topic. The excessive spending with no plan to pay the bills put forth by this rubber stamp Republican congress. Seems you guys would eventually wise up some. :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Lefty]

lbj, I gave a reply. We've spent over 5 trillion on the war on poverty since Johnson. If you got real news you'd know that. If you want more specifics. look em up.

[Lefty]

lbj, try this link:

http://www.ask.com/web?o=0&qsrc=6&q=Poverty+Costs

[Lefty]

try this one for sure.

http://campus.murraystate.edu/academic/faculty/frank.elwell/PROBWEB/Presentations/poverty/sld022.htm

[Tom]

Well, Ljb, don't you feel foolish now?

46......got to you, dind't I ? :kiss::kiss::kiss:

[betchatoo]

try this one for sure.

http://campus.murraystate.edu/academic/faculty/frank.elwell/PROBWEB/Presentations/poverty/sld022.htm

Did you even read what you posted? It said it costs us far more for wealthfare than welfare

[ljb]

Well, Ljb, don't you feel foolish now?

46......got to you, dind't I ? :kiss::kiss::kiss:
Nope, those figures come from some rightwing blog. Probably the same one that includes social security in the calculation of welfare totals.

[twindouble]

This is how the liberial programs worked here, just a population of 46,000.

Section 8 housing subsidies. The game was first, get divorced. Wife qualifies for section 8, housing that would cost you or I $500 or more a MO she gets it for $125.00, she qualifies for welfare, aid to dependent children, gets food stamps and medical coverage and other free goods from charitable organizations. X husband moves in with her having a job, they hatch a scheme where as they can sell their food stamps at a discount, to buy cigarettes, drugs and beer. He soon figures out he can quit his minimum wage job, wait out the 21 weeks and collect unemployment and not work at all, big mistake because then he finds out if he faked an injury he can collect SS disability so he goes back to work with that plan in mind, picks the right Doctor and gets his wish. The kids are school age so she goes to work part time as a waitress and gets paid under the table. Thanks to the libs, they spend their spare time looking for more help that's in the works. Now that's what I call The American Dream. :D

I'll add, if it's a real divorce, the boy friend moves in. :jump:

T.D.

[twindouble]

Oh yes, almost forgot, she figures out the more children the better and if she wants can dump the husband or boy friend and get child support, if she's lucky of course, if not she brings in another boy friend.

[twindouble]

Now even being aware of such abuse liberals didn't want to change anything not wanting to come off as racist and uncaring, that's was the spin to the public. The truth was most of the jobs that were created with the programs were filled with more liberals from top to bottom, State jobs, pensions, health care, dental, even cars with no cost to them. Not with standing any grants coming from the Federal government that mirrored State bureaucracies. Oh what to do, well another program is needed. :lol: How about a free lunch program that will guarantee healthy bright children, after all with parents not knowing what to feed their children or having the know how to cook the food bought with food stamps it's in the public interest to do so. :D

Hell, I'm just getting started, what to hear some more. :eek:

[ljb]

This is how the liberial programs worked here, just a population of 46,000.

Section 8 housing subsidies. The game was first, get divorced. Wife qualifies for section 8, housing that would cost you or I $500 or more a MO she gets it for $125.00, she qualifies for welfare, aid to dependent children, gets food stamps and medical coverage and other free goods from charitable organizations. X husband moves in with her having a job, they hatch a scheme where as they can sell their food stamps at a discount, to buy cigarettes, drugs and beer. He soon figures out he can quit his minimum wage job, wait out the 21 weeks and collect unemployment and not work at all, big mistake because then he finds out if he faked an injury he can collect SS disability so he goes back to work with that plan in mind, picks the right Doctor and gets his wish. The kids are school age so she goes to work part time as a waitress and gets paid under the table. Thanks to the libs, they spend their spare time looking for more help that's in the works. Now that's what I call The American Dream. :D

I'll add, if it's a real divorce, the boy friend moves in. :jump:

T.D.

T.D. If you have any actual proof of this activity, why haven't you reported it to the proper authorities ? It is a shame you don't really know anybody living under the conditions you describe, you would have a better understanding of their existance.
This is not to say there are not scammers in the welfare system but, I have seen scammers in every walk of life. Former FEMA director Brown comes to mind. Lets not just pick on the poor, lets get all the bums.

[twindouble]

T.D. If you have any actual proof of this activity, why haven't you reported it to the proper authorities ? It is a shame you don't really know anybody living under the conditions you describe, you would have a better understanding of their existance.
This is not to say there are not scammers in the welfare system but, I have seen scammers in every walk of life. Former FEMA director Brown comes to mind. Lets not just pick on the poor, lets get all the bums.

ljb;
As soon as you think I'm the type of person to make things up just for the sake of argument put me on ignore. When I was growing up we, all 10 of us including parents were the poorest on the block. I know very well what hunger and cold feels like. My parents never took a hand out, if the kids did we would have got the strap if they found out. I could tell you many things that would bring any liberal or conservatives to tears. Anyway that's history my parents pulled out of it and we all have done quite well. Yes, even playing the horses.

On the subject, it was very well known what was going on and I agree get all the bums, including those that administer the programs and created them. We don't need people depending on government for their survial. There's better ways.

T.D.

[Lefty]

One thing about you, lbj, sure as hell can't confuse ya with the facts.

[BIG RED]

T.D. If you have any actual proof of this activity, why haven't you reported it to the proper authorities ? It is a shame you don't really know anybody living under the conditions you describe, you would have a better understanding of their existance.
This is not to say there are not scammers in the welfare system but, I have seen scammers in every walk of life. Former FEMA director Brown comes to mind. Lets not just pick on the poor, lets get all the bums.

GMAFB!

[Indulto]

T.D. If you have any actual proof of this activity, why haven't you reported it to the proper authorities ? It is a shame you don't really know anybody living under the conditions you describe, you would have a better understanding of their existance.
This is not to say there are not scammers in the welfare system but, I have seen scammers in every walk of life. Former FEMA director Brown comes to mind. Lets not just pick on the poor, lets get all the bums.ljb, exactly who do you think the proper authorities are? Local law enforcement is generally too swamped to deal when anything that isn't violently criminal or life-threatening in some way. Social workers can't be expected to deal with fraud unless they have police protection when they visit the premises of those they suspect, and especially those whose guilt they can already prove. And who but a neighbor or a government worker with access can substantiate a complaint.

It would take an effort like Giuliani's in Brooklyn (how cum da Bronx is still da pits) to make an impact on neighborhoods where fraud is blatant (though not necessarily rampant). But even if you're not a resident of such a neighborhood, but merely an occasional visitor, it's impossible not to notice all the late model cars and expensively accessorized teenagers not engaged in athletic activites or ever carrying a book, much less reading one or inside studying during the evening. And fraud in those neighborhoods is probably a drop in the bucket compared to that perpetrated by those with more education, but no moral compass.

But instead of cleaning up the corrupt system, we instead pump money into political campaigns and political pork and trying to force societies on the other side of the world with incompatible values to accept our error-prone procedures. Why would anyone expect elections in Iraq or Afghanistan to be more reflective of majority will than our own? Haven't heard much lately from our friends in Ohio on that subject.

[Tom]

Brownie is being hired by.....NO.
As a consultant.
Says a lot about them good ole dems down there.
A lot.

[doophus]

Brownie is being hired by.....NO.
As a consultant.
Says a lot about them good ole dems down there.
A lot.Tom, Brownie has offered his services to St. Bernard Parish and/or Chalmette. After much local hullabaloo, he backed off by saying that his services would be pro bono. If he's being hired by NO, that is very late news or I just failed to notice this little stupidity in the Sea of Stupidity.

[Tom]

..... I just failed to notice this little stupidity in the Sea of Stupidity.

That sea just overflowed the levees!

[ljb]

ljb, exactly who do you think the proper authorities are? Local law enforcement is generally too swamped to deal when anything that isn't violently criminal or life-threatening in some way. Social workers can't be expected to deal with fraud unless they have police protection when they visit the premises of those they suspect, and especially those whose guilt they can already prove. this is not a law that would be handled by local law enforcement . I would contact my state/federal representatives for a starter. And who but a neighbor or a government worker with access can substantiate a complaint. TD's note seems to have implications of substance, or did he just make up his allegations ?
It would take an effort like Giuliani's in Brooklyn (how cum da Bronx is still da pits) to make an impact on neighborhoods where fraud is blatant (though not necessarily rampant). But even if you're not a resident of such a neighborhood, but merely an occasional visitor, it's impossible not to notice all the late model cars and expensively accessorized teenagers not engaged in athletic activites or ever carrying a book, much less reading one or inside studying during the evening. And would you change your lifestyle for one of those ? And fraud in those neighborhoods is probably a drop in the bucket compared to that perpetrated by those with more education, but no moral compass. Excellent point !

But instead of cleaning up the corrupt system, we instead pump money into political campaigns and political pork and trying to force societies on the other side of the world with incompatible values to accept our error-prone procedures. Why would anyone expect elections in Iraq or Afghanistan to be more reflective of majority will than our own? Haven't heard much lately from our friends in Ohio on that subject. No argument here.

[ljb]

One thing about you, lbj, sure as hell can't confuse ya with the facts.
Lefty,
Let us all know when you come up with some facts.

[ljb]

GMAFB!
Good Message And Fabulously Brilliant ? ;)

[Lefty]

Hey lbj, I gave you all the facts on The Johnson admin and the 5 trillion we've spent on poverty. If you don't like the facts you dismiss them. You have no facts, recognize no facts and always resort to namecalling and or changing the subject or just dismissing the facts out of hand. You've got the liberal line dn pretty well. And you substitute opinions for facts. You're pretty much in the dark on most things.

[Tom]

One thing about you, lbj, sure as hell can't confuse ya with the facts.

He gets confured with "peek-a-boo!" :lol:

[ljb]

ljb;
As soon as you think I'm the type of person to make things up just for the sake of argument put me on ignore. When I was growing up we, all 10 of us including parents were the poorest on the block. I know very well what hunger and cold feels like. My parents never took a hand out, if the kids did we would have got the strap if they found out. I could tell you many things that would bring any liberal or conservatives to tears. Anyway that's history my parents pulled out of it and we all have done quite well. Yes, even playing the horses.

On the subject, it was very well known what was going on and I agree get all the bums, including those that administer the programs and created them. We don't need people depending on government for their survial. There's better ways.

T.D.

Td,
I am glad to hear you struggled through a tough/poor childhood. Lefty has also shared his tough life as a young married man with us.
One point I would like to make:
You both did it under policies and government rules/regulations brought forth by Roosevelt’s New Deal and/or LBJ’s Great Society. It was not until the Reagan presidency that this country started leaning hard right. The Republicans have only been in control of congress for the past 10 years.
Today when you hear the word liberal you think of “welfare queens” a phrase attributed to President Reagan and now foisted on us by those who want you to think their way.
I also believe no able-bodied person should be given free government handouts. I do however believe these programs sponsored by the democrats are supplemental to the average working stiff as versus the benefits given to the well to do by the republicans. A couple of examples being the recently passed medicare prescription drug program which is highly beneficial to the Insurance and Pharmaceutical industry and a massive burden to the taxpayers with little benefits to the majority of Americans.
And of course we have to think about the energy policy just implemented by this administration, which gives massive tax breaks to oil companies such as Exxon. We are paying upwards of $3.00 a gallon for gas and Exxon reports enormous profits, giving their CEO a massive retirement package while still not paying the fine for the oil spill in Alaska.
Another example is the administrations policy regarding immigration. This policy creates an oversupply of workers willing to work for lower wages and this in turn lowers the income of all working class people trying to provide for their families.
In conclusion, if you look at the big picture you will find that the Democrats are prone to implement policies and programs that help the working class Americans and the Republicans tend to support the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans.

[ljb]

Hey lbj, I gave you all the facts on The Johnson admin and the 5 trillion we've spent on poverty. If you don't like the facts you dismiss them. You have no facts, recognize no facts and always resort to namecalling and or changing the subject or just dismissing the facts out of hand. You've got the liberal line dn pretty well. And you substitute opinions for facts. You're pretty much in the dark on most things.
Lefty,
Are you trying to say something here ?

[twindouble]

Td,
I am glad to hear you struggled through a tough/poor childhood. Lefty has also shared his tough life as a young married man with us.
One point I would like to make:
You both did it under policies and government rules/regulations brought forth by Roosevelt’s New Deal and/or LBJ’s Great Society.

This is the last time I'll respond to your off base assumptions. I made it very clear we didn't receive or expect handouts of any kind. Roosevelt had nothing to do with my father working two jobs including weekends to make ends meet, jobs that would be below most would take. We couldn't go anywhere to free vegetables, we grew them ourselves but you wouldn't know what a victory garden was. How about this, picking wild berries to sell for pennies to get basic things, picking copper in the dumps for a pair of shoes or replace a broken window, going threw the neighbors cinder ashes to find coal and scraping up whatever we could at the train station. My older brothers were like pack animals gathering wood to burn were ever they could, no fuel subsides. We ended up with strong backs, determination, and nothing was below us. We pulled ourselves out of it by the time the 60's liberals created two generations of dependent lazy ass people, that brought about drugs and crime infested communities. My father built a new house in 1964 with no help from the government, I was in business for myself at 20. Hard work pays off, holding everyone's ass off the ground making it easy never worked.


The new deal never reached my family, not anything my father was aware of, the only thing he was dealt was hard work, like all others around us. Anyone who thinks the new deal wiped out poverty is smoking something. What do you think, coming out of a depression all of a sudden everyone was doing well under Roosevelt, many of my relatives worked the CC Camps. All he did was inspire people enough to work there way out of it, ultimately WW 2 provided the jobs for many.
The war accounted for a third of the GNP. No Hitler no economic growth to speak of.




T.D.

[JustRalph]

In conclusion, if you look at the big picture you will find that the Democrats are prone to implement policies and programs that help the working class Americans and the Republicans tend to support the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans.

They help them through artificial means that in the long run cost us more and take money from my wallet and place it in somebody elses. The Dems controlled congress for 45 years and didn't fix a thing. I figure we still have 35 years on our watch.

You friggin Dems can't understand the nature of a free market system that is supported by natural events and marketing that are not supported by government. It reminds me of the projects built in Chicago and in other places. Dems thought that building these residents a home etc would give them the hand up that they needed. Now there are projects that are 40 years old and crumbling onto the 3-4 generation of the families who originally entered the projects in 60's. Thank god these places are falling down now. They were one of the worse things that the Dems ever did. It dis-incentivized an entire generation and they passed it on to their children. These people don't understand how the market works. And when I say the market, I mean jobs and business in the country. They were entombed in a society that didn't grow or mature. The children of these people can no longer communicate and they are burdened by the limited circumstances they were taught to expect and endure. The fact that they must now go out into a world where the expected handout is few and far between is the legacy that was foisted upon them. They gain even lesser respect from those who have come from meager circumstances and often times those persons are the very ones that they are trying to assimilate with and worse even, get hired by. I am talking about people of every persuasion. If they took part in government handouts for generations they are crippled beyond compare when it comes to stepping up and out. They don't understand why they are less qualified and why they are unable to change and grow. It is the fault of their parents and the government under which they were nursed for 40 years. Wonder how I know? I run a business and I have been hiring employee's for the last ten years or more. I have done a bunch of interviews and received many a resume. My wife has been doing it for 20 years in the service industry. We have lived it. Probably in the thousands of applicants. Just my view.

This is the legacy of the great society.

[Tom]

WE could not support the huge salaries unions were demanding, but at least when the cost were past on to us, we had a choice not to buy.

How long can we survive having slave labor as our competitors for jobs? In this case, there are no choices for us. We cannot choose to buy American because many products are no longer made here.
I keep hearing the phrase free trade. That is great if you live in a third rate country, but free trade equalizes nations. We have nowhere to go but DOWN!
FAIR trade is seldom discuused anymore. What Bush doesn't understand is that if I wanted live a Chinneses peasent, I would have moved there.

The republicans have taken us down the wrong road - and it may be too late. Potectionism is not an all or nothing thing - it seems everyone excpet us is somehow protecting thier own societies. If outsourcing is so good, why don't we talk about outsourcing Secret Service?

It is more than economics - the republicans have put our very security in jeopardy.

Let me ask a really serious question - congress and the WH cannot agree on protecting our borders - literally millions are streaming in unchecked and their identities are unknown, whereabouts unknown, and yet they claim we are in a war on terror?

This is the absolute stupidest thing in the history of man. What good is a government that cannot protect its borders?

It is time to get out of Iraq - we can do no more there, especially not with Bush and Rummy calling the shots.
Bring our troops home to patrol the borders, and spend our money here - on the taxpayers. It is OUR money after all.

I, for one, am tired of spending it on damn foreigners.

[Lefty]

Td,

In conclusion, if you look at the big picture you will find that the Democrats are prone to implement policies and programs that help the working class Americans and the Republicans tend to support the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans.

Well, lbj, just a blatent unthinking parroting of the liberal lie. I have always struggled under the dems and did much better under the tax breaks Repubs give, and I assure I am not even close to wealthy.

[JustRalph]

Bring our troops home to patrol the borders, and spend our money here - on the taxpayers. It is OUR money after all.

One problem. It is illegal and unconstitutional. Without serious steps to dance around some legal issues......it can't happen. It falls on the states, unless we are in a declared war. Then it still won't be easy.

[Tom]

One problem. It is illegal and unconstitutional. Without serious steps to dance around some legal issues......it can't happen. It falls on the states, unless we are in a declared war. Then it still won't be easy.

We have how many national guard troops over there?
Bring them home and let the states re-deploy them.
Since when does a law stop Bush? He does what he pleases anyway?

How about this - declare martial law along the border and then put the troops there. An invading army of 12-30 million is more than enough justifiication to do that. Far more than he had to go to Iraq in the first place. We are more at war with mexico than we are with anyone else. The Mexican armr regualry crossed the borders and threaten local law enforcement - maore than enough to invade and take out Fox IMHO.
Fox is a greater threat than Bin Laden is.
If Bush continues to sell out on this issue, other groups are going to take action - and it won't be pretty.

[Indulto]

I keep hearing the phrase free trade. That is great if you live in a third rate country, but free trade equalizes nations. We have nowhere to go but DOWN!
FAIR trade is seldom discuused anymore. What Bush doesn't understand is that if I wanted live a Chinneses peasent, I would have moved there.

The republicans have taken us down the wrong road - and it may be too late. Potectionism is not an all or nothing thing - it seems everyone excpet us is somehow protecting thier own societies. If outsourcing is so good, why don't we talk about outsourcing Secret Service?

It is more than economics - the republicans have put our very security in jeopardy.

Let me ask a really serious question - congress and the WH cannot agree on protecting our borders - literally millions are streaming in unchecked and their identities are unknown, whereabouts unknown, and yet they claim we are in a war on terror?Tom,
One of your best posts since I started reading off-topic.

[Tom]

Thanks, In...

I don't what amazes me more - the stupid stuff Bush says about the invading army of illegals - they are undocumented, so how does he know ANYTHING about them, who they are, why thery are here - or the gullibility of those who believe him.
His war on terror is only valide to him when it protects those who have bought and paid for him. I have no doubt in my mind that Al Qeda has not attempted a major strike since 9-11, and that when they do, they will succeed. We are no safer today than we were then, in fact, I think we more vunerable.

BTW....another one turns his back on Bush today - Tony Blair! will not support an attack on Iran. Tony's no fool - how could anyone support another military action with Rumsfeld in charge? The man is a fool and will only waste more lives to feed his ego. Six generals, now Blair - Bush is just not bright enough to be the one who is right.

[Lefty]

The states that have nat'l guard troops are not deploying the now except that one gov in AZ, and are they working? Haven't heard. The only way to stop this is to make the businesses that hire illegals pay through the nose, even jail time. But like it or not we are a nation that has a Congress and this stuff has to go through them. It's the Dems that have the newest bill "bottlenecked" You know that wording "felony" for helping illegals that priests and others don't like? Well, it's the dems that want to keep that word felony in there. Tom, you're falling into the dems hands when you blame Bush for everything when it's them that wants to screw everything up and keep this issue a "political chip" just like they have doner with SS, oil and everything else. Even though the repubs have a slim majority it's not a super majority and Harry Reid can keep things from happening. That's the real world in the U.S.

[Tom]

Not payoing taxes is already a crime. No contressneeded, just the ball to stand up to business and enforce exiting law - something no one in DC will becasue they represent business, not the people. Fact. Bothj sides. Bought and paid for. Noting of substance will come out of this whole immirations debate - it is smoke and mirrors so everyne can take the high road come election day. Whatever happened to result over efforts? Oh, yeah, results = cashed checks.

Maybe we could lure some mexican government folks here - to enforce the laws that Amercian governemtn won't!

[twindouble]

JustRalph;

I was going to get into that subject but you covered it very well. Thanks.

The 60's generation had a profound effect on society in many ways, their was some good things that happened ESP the civil rights movement, voter registration to me was the key element that helped break down the barriers to political and economic suppression. I had mixed feeling about forced integration and affirmative action along with bussing. I believed and still do Racism and bigotry is in the heart of the ignorant, no law would wipe that out only time would do that. When it came to Equal Opportunity employment and Affirmative Action, at the time unions were strong, they had a history of discrimination, be it black or any other ethnic group, it all boiled down to who you knew to get work or higher positions, that was a lot to over come in my opinion at the time. I also thought affirmative action would create more resentment, ESP were blacks were hired by quota and not qualifications.

It was a confusing time, I even at one point thought Louis Faricon had the right idea early on along with Stokley Carmichael's black power movement. Economic and political power was what they thought the answer was.

Anyway, lots to talk about when it comes to the 60's and were we are at today.

T.D.

[Indulto]

The only way to stop this is to make the businesses that hire illegals pay through the nose, even jail time.

. . . It's the Dems that have the newest bill "bottlenecked" You know that wording "felony" for helping illegals that priests and others don't like? Well, it's the dems that want to keep that word felony in there.Lefty,
Finally, you said something we can agree on, but then, of course, blamed Dems for trying to implement your solution.

[Tom]

I agree - it SHOULD be a felony to illegally cross the border. Try sneaking in China, N Korea - see where it gets you.
The lie is that this will make millions of people felons. It will not. It can not.
You cannot make a new law retroactive - it is just bizzare to think that. One cannot brak a law that doens't exist. This will only make felons of those who sneak in AFTER it is passed.

Why on earth would anyone NOT want it a major crime to breech our borders, by-pass out national security? What is the point of having an America if we have no standards, allow anyone to come here who wants, pay taxes if they feel like it? What the hell is the point of being an American citizen when threy reward illegals and let them work tax free?

[ljb]

Td,

This is the last time I'll respond to your off base assumptions. I made it very clear we didn't receive or expect handouts of any kind. Roosevelt had nothing to do with my father working two jobs including weekends to make ends meet, jobs that would be below most would take. We couldn't go anywhere to free vegetables, we grew them ourselves but you wouldn't know what a victory garden was. How about this, picking wild berries to sell for pennies to get basic things, picking copper in the dumps for a pair of shoes or replace a broken window, going threw the neighbors cinder ashes to find coal and scraping up whatever we could at the train station. My older brothers were like pack animals gathering wood to burn were ever they could, no fuel subsides. We ended up with strong backs, determination, and nothing was below us. We pulled ourselves out of it by the time the 60's liberals created two generations of dependent lazy ass people, that brought about drugs and crime infested communities. My father built a new house in 1964 with no help from the government, I was in business for myself at 20. Hard work pays off, holding everyone's ass off the ground making it easy never worked.

And you did all this commendable work under the policies/government controls and laws of the liberals. If you tried that today you would most likely be arrested for trespassing and/or vagrancy. You see the neocons have little use for poor folk unless they can exploit them.

The new deal never reached my family, not anything my father was aware of, the only thing he was dealt was hard work, like all others around us. Anyone who thinks the new deal wiped out poverty is smoking something. What do you think, coming out of a depression all of a sudden everyone was doing well under Roosevelt, many of my relatives worked the CC Camps. All he did was inspire people enough to work there way out of it, ultimately WW 2 provided the jobs for many.
The war accounted for a third of the GNP. No Hitler no economic growth to speak of.
T.D.
I didn't think you or your family were recipients of any govenrment welfare, I was just pointing out how the gov't policies etc. supported your actions. The neocons in office now have passed legislation taking overtime pay away from many workers, they have passed legislation that makes it difficult for an individual to file bankruptcy while allowing corporations to just blow off their contractual agreements regarding retirement programs for their workers. (the majority of personal bankruptcies today are caused by massive, unexpected medical bills not excessive credit card debt as the neocons would like you to think.)

[ljb]

They help them through artificial means that in the long run cost us more and take money from my wallet and place it in somebody elses. The Dems controlled congress for 45 years and didn't fix a thing. I figure we still have 35 years on our watch.

And how did you do during the 45 years of Democratic control ? Personally I did quite well. It is only the last few years that my standard of living has taken a down turn. Medical expenses going up as well as local taxes and higher gas prices and small wage increases. And tuition for my young uns is outta sight.

[Lefty]

indul, you either bastardize my words or you need an interpreter. The dems want to keep the word felony in there as it pertains someone like a Priest helping illegals. That's what keeps the legal and illegal Mexicans all aflame and is exactly what the Dems want. They don't want Repubs EVER to effect a solution to anything, it's all about power with the dems and to hell with the country. Sure it should be a felony to hire an illegal but not to give a thirsty man a cup of water. And this was not ever the Repubs intent but the Dems characerize it that way.

[Lefty]

lbj, I and most everyone I know struggled like hell during most of the Dem yrs.
The economy is great now and yet your lying ass mainstream media and dems try to make it sound otherwise. But the pipples know better.
If you did great during the dem yrs maybe you were on welfare. If I was lazy and wanted nothing but handouts i'd vote for dems too.

[Lefty]

lbj, once more, but know you won't learn a thing, you can trace high medical costs back to Johnson's Medicare prgm and oil, well we'd have more if the dems would have let us drill instead of the b.s. about destroying the environment. I know you won't blve it, cause you won't bother to get educated beyond liberal nonsense.

[Tom]

Catholic priests and bisjops are encouraging illegal to cmoe here legally. Those that do absolutley belong in jail.
Lefty, if a bsank robber was shot, came to your house, and gave in wter and bandages and let him walk out and not report it, woutld that be legal or right?
What's the difference?

Churches that get poitcal and engourage others to break out lws are no longer churches in my book and the catholic church in particular must be made to start paying taxes - they have no right to claim tax exempt status.

Let's see the pope is willing to shell out the money that illegals are costing me in my taxes. Any damn fool can wear a collar and shoot off his mouth - time to put up cash.

[46zilzal]

lbj, once more, but know you won't learn a thing, you can trace high medical costs back to Johnson's Medicare prgm
That is COMPLETE and UTTER nonsense

[Lefty]

Tom, if a guy asked you for a drink of water and out ogf kindness you gave it to him, should you be arrested cause you didn't know he was a felon. Of course not, and the Repubs don't want proests arrested either. But the Dems have seized the ball and try to emphasize that is the case by insisting on the word felony in this newest bill. They will keep the ball btween the 40's and nobody benefits, nothing gets done about the prob? If ya want to side with the dems and keep the problem because it won't go 100% your way, then that's part of the problem in this country. We won't get a bill that any of us will like 100% but to get nothing at all, well, it's ridiculous.

[Lefty]

46 zilly, you don't believe in the freemkt but if medicine was in the free mkt all these many yrs instead of that godawful Medicare prgm Johnson foisted on us, medical costs would be under control. Of course, socialists like you don't want the free mkt. Medical costs have been spiraling for yrs because if medicare but i'm sure you ans all the otyher socialist will pretend and tell us that all just started in the last 6 yrs. Suprise, surprise!
BTw, how long is the wait now in Canada, say for a Catscan, hmmmm?

[dav4463]

some good things that happened ESP

extra sensory perception was on the Andy Griffith show in the 60's ! I guess that isn't what you meant though !







I really knew it meant especially............

[Tom]

Tom, if a guy asked you for a drink of water and out ogf kindness you gave it to him, should you be arrested cause you didn't know he was a felon. Of course not, and the Repubs don't want proests arrested either. But the Dems have seized the ball and try to emphasize that is the case by insisting on the word felony in this newest bill. They will keep the ball btween the 40's and nobody benefits, nothing gets done about the prob? If ya want to side with the dems and keep the problem because it won't go 100% your way, then that's part of the problem in this country. We won't get a bill that any of us will like 100% but to get nothing at all, well, it's ridiculous.

That is not what is going on - they are purposely going out in the desert and leaving water and food, encouraging illegal entry. Yes, people who do that should be felons and should be lock up. They are as guilty as the illegals. If the meixcans are so thirsty - stay the hell home! Nothing less than a felony is acceptable. It's our border, stupid! (not you, the play on words!) And the felony will only apply to new illegal entries - NOT the 20 million already here. Why is that bad? We are going to let non-citizens tell us how to run our country? That is not what we are sending our troops to die in the world's toilet for. If we refuse to seal our borders, they will ahve died for noting - because the war on terror is a sham. Why should we fight them there, where they are at best a remote threat, while the REAL threat is already here, invading our states and we ignore it?

[46zilzal]

46 zilly, you don't believe in the freemkt but if medicine was in the free mkt all these many yrs instead of that godawful Medicare prgm Johnson foisted on us, medical costs would be under control. Of course, socialists like you don't want the free mkt. Medical costs have been spiraling for yrs because if medicare but i'm sure you ans all the otyher socialist will pretend and tell us that all just started in the last 6 yrs. Suprise, surprise!
BTw, how long is the wait now in Canada, say for a Catscan, hmmmm?
you have, as usual, NO IDEA what you are talking about. A substantial increase in costs are from DRUG companies PUSHING meds of marginal efficacy onto the public directly NOT through practitioners.

The state of medical care here is mutually exclusive to south of the line

[Lefty]

46, that's just a tiny part of what's going on. Medicare has druiven costs through the roof; costing us over 900 times of what was projected. If we had medical savings plans installed in the 60's; i and others would have so much money in our accts we wouldn't worry about prescription costs. If a drug has likited value it's up to the dor's to say so. I had a stroke about 4 yrs ago. My Dr put me on an aspirin regimen after. My wife saw all the Plavix commercials and said i should get it. I asked my Dr. He laughed and said it wouldn't do me much good. That's what Dr's are supposed to do. Most medical costs can be traced back to that lousy Medicare plan. I am not wrong.

[46zilzal]

46, that's just a tiny part of what's going on. Medicare has druiven costs through the roof; costing us over 900 times of what was projected. If we had medical savings plans installed in the 60's; i and others would have so much money in our accts we wouldn't worry about prescription costs. If a drug has likited value it's up to the dor's to say so. I had a stroke about 4 yrs ago. My Dr put me on an aspirin regimen after. My wife saw all the Plavix commercials and said i should get it. I asked my Dr. He laughed and said it wouldn't do me much good. That's what Dr's are supposed to do. Most medical costs can be traced back to that lousy Medicare plan. I am not wrong.

When YOU work in the medical field then you MIGHT have some semblence of a REAL point of view. OUTSIDE looking in it is just BIASED conjecture. EVERY WHERE else in the world the same meds sold in the U.S. are about 40 - 60% of the cost. I send meds to relatives purchased here and save them a bundle. You still don't know what your talking about other than this BLIND belief that EVERYTHING ON THIS PLANET which you deem bad is the result of some Democrat.

[Lefty]

I am not in the medical field but I know people and Dr's that are and they concur with me. Yes, drugs are cheaper in other parts of the world but that has nothing to do with high cost of healthcare in this country. Drug companies spend millions developing these drugs and they have to go through the fda here. But that has nothing to do with the free mkt. If medical savings accts had been implemented back in the 60's then we would have free mkt health care and cheaper healthcare. Just cause you're a socialist dr does not mean you know a damn thing about what's going on. And I freely admit my belief that most of the ills of this country are because of the implementation of nutty liberal prgms. Aren't medical costs even higher in Canada because of the socialized medicine there. Huh, huh? How long to get an MRI or even a Catscan. How long is the waiting list?

[46zilzal]

debating with you is on par with a discussion with a treepost

[Tom]

Here's a question - if outsourcing and free trade and global economies are so good for everyone, why is our governement so against us buying cheaper drugs from Canada?

[46zilzal]

Here's a question - if outsourcing and free trade and global economies are so good for everyone, why is our governement so against us buying cheaper drugs from Canada?
their RICH lobbyists friends wouldn't like it

[Lefty]

debating with you is on par with a discussion with a treepost
Ahh, the ultimate end of an argument with a liberal. Never fails.

[Lefty]

The drug companies spend millions developing their drugs. Would ya like for them to stop?

[twindouble]

The drug companies spend millions developing their drugs. Would ya like for them to stop?

My problem with importing drugs from other countries is safety, hell we can't even get it right here, just think about all the drugs that are recalled that we produce.

[Lefty]

Another big reason our healthcare is so high, besides the Medicare debacle, is we have to bear the costs of people with no insurance. We get charged more to pay for them. But if we had had medical savings plans installed back in the 60's those people would be able to fund their own healthcare out of their medical savings acct. The free mkt is a beautiful thing, and if we had those funds to shop for our own dr.'s just like we do with everything else, voila!

[46zilzal]

Many of the SAME international companies produce these meds in different countries just under different brand names. Safety at the SOURCE is not an issue. There is a company in Spain which re-sells meds to government Rx plans by finding a reputable source in Europe that is the lowest price, buying them in bulk and then re-shipping them to the area of higher cost saving them a lot of money.

[Lefty]

46, but that doesn't address our high health costs here. It can't all be blamed on the drug companies. But if you'd think about what Medicare has done to our system and what socialized healthcare doing to Canada, you'd realize that i'm right.

[Tom]

How about some blame for HMOs and greedy doctors? They certainly are a big part of the problem.

[lsbets]

Lefty- while I believe that more consumer choice and market freedom would bring down healthcare costs, MSAs would do nothing to address the problem of the uninsured and the burden of the cost for their care would still fall on our shoulders. People are generally uninsured for one of two reasons - either they don't feel they need insurance, so they don't get any, or they cannot afford to buy insurance. The first group tends to be younger folks in their twenties, and they are just as unlikely to contribute to MSAs as they are to buy health insurance. Since the second group cannot afford insurance, there is no way they can afford to put money into a savings account.

Zilly - does your opinion that only those in the medical field can have a semblance of a real point of view apply to other fields which you do not work in but express opinions on every day? Or was that response yet another example of your tendancy to be an arrogant buffoon?

[46zilzal]

we have a finalist in the Norris Panell award for this year

[lsbets]

Ah yes, once again your wit is remarkable. However, don't be surprised if you get your quote about the medical field thrown back at you when you unintelligently comment on just about anything else.

[ljb]

Zilly - does your opinion that only those in the medical field can have a semblance of a real point of view apply to other fields which you do not work in but express opinions on every day? Or was that response yet another example of your tendancy to be an arrogant buffoon?
If i recall correctly there was a poster here who claimed to be all knowing about Iraq because he had spent some time there. Hmmm ?

[lsbets]

If i recall correctly there was a poster here who claimed to be all knowing about Iraq because he had spent some time there. Hmmm ?

You don't recall correctly at all (there is a shocker). I said that my experience there and first hand knowledge gave me insights that others did not get from the media back here. I never said anyone was not qualified to offer an opinion on Iraq because they were not there. All knowing? Never made any claim of the sort, however I did correct erroneous statements on your part many times and used things that I personally experienced and saw with my own eyes as evidence to refute your fallacious statements.

Do you ever get mad that you're wrong most of the time you say anything? Does it frustrate you?

[46zilzal]

I said that my experience there and first hand knowledge gave me insights that others did not get from the media back here.
OOPs no different in other fields

[lsbets]

OOPs no different in other fields

There is a difference between saying you know more about the medical field than people who are not in it and saying that people who are not in it know nothing about it. Your first hand knowledge of medicine certainly gives you insights and experiences that Lefty does not have, yet that does not mean Lefty cannot have valid opinions and thoughts on how to control the costs of medical care.

Do you see the difference between your original statement to Lefty and what I stated? Or is that just semantics to you?

[46zilzal]

let's rephrase this LEFTY is brain dead and gives more evidence as the days go by. That CVA must have been more necrotic than he previously realized.

[lsbets]

let's rephrase this LEFTY is brain dead and gives more evidence as the days go by. That CVA must have been more necrotic than he previously realized.

Ah yes, back to the "I don't respect anyone on here but myself" style of posting. Anyone who disagrees with your narrowminded views must be brain dead, right? After all, you're 6'3! :lol:

[ljb]

You don't recall correctly at all (there is a shocker). I said that my experience there and first hand knowledge gave me insights that others did not get from the media back here. I never said anyone was not qualified to offer an opinion on Iraq because they were not there. All knowing? Never made any claim of the sort, however I did correct erroneous statements on your part many times and used things that I personally experienced and saw with my own eyes as evidence to refute your fallacious statements.

Do you ever get mad that you're wrong most of the time you say anything? Does it frustrate you?
Do you mean when I said invading Iraq was a bad idea ? Oops I was right that time. How about when I said the neocons were going to be bad for the working people in America ? Oh damn right again. Well let me think a while and get back with you.

[lsbets]

"The neocons".

Do you remember ecarhoff? You sound a lot like the loony left version of him.

The neocons, the neocons, the neocons ........ :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:

[ljb]

Nice attempt at spinning. And the personal attack is a nice touch too. I just googled ecarhoff and found nothing. If you have time you may want to google neocons.

[lsbets]

Nice attempt at spinning. And the personal attack is a nice touch too. I just googled ecarhoff and found nothing. If you have time you may want to google neocons.

You have a pre written script, don't you? Neocon, neocon, neocon. :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:

[ljb]

Doesn't your browser support google ? If not I can provide a link. :lol:

[lsbets]

Doesn't your browser support google ? :lol:

Nope, I stopped using google several months ago.

[PaceAdvantage]

And tuition for my young uns is outta sight.

Tuitions started spiraling out of control WAY BEFORE 2000....they were out of control back in the early 90s....

[lsbets]

Tuitions started spiraling out of control WAY BEFORE 2000....they were out of control back in the early 90s....

Don't confuse ljb with the facts. In his world, we lived in the Garden of Eden until January 2001 when the serpent Bush took office.

[ljb]

Nope, I stopped using google several months ago.
Click here http://zfacts.com/p/253.html
Oh damn database overloaded again. A couple of youse guys get outta here. ;)

[ljb]

Tuitions started spiraling out of control WAY BEFORE 2000....they were out of control back in the early 90s....
It is not much data but something I just found.

Southern Illinois University Carbondale - New Entering Undergraduate
Total Resident Hall Total
Years Tuition % Increase
1997 2,550
1998 2,700 5.9%
1999 2,781 3.0%
2000 2,865 3.0%
2001 3,011 5.1%
2002 3,102 3.0%
2003 3,660 18.0%
2004 4,245 16.0%
2005 4,920 15.9%
2006 Current 5,310 7.9%
Note: The figures represent charges to first-time, full-time undergraduates based on a nine month academic year of 30 semester hours.
Historical Tuition, Fees, Room and Board
FY 97 through FY 06

Further searching may find additonal data but this is a good start don't you think ?
Not the jumps in 2003, 2004 and 2005

[ljb]

Don't confuse ljb with the facts. In his world, we lived in the Garden of Eden until January 2001 when the serpent Bush took office.
Again the personal attack. This is somewhat unbecoming on a mature bb. Oh and did you get a chance to peruse the "facts" i submitted ?

[lsbets]

Again the personal attack. This is somewhat unbecoming on a mature bb. Oh and did you get a chance to peruse the "facts" i submitted ?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Thanks for the laugh ljb. Glad to see you made it through a post without saying neocon.

[ljb]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Thanks for the laugh ljb. Glad to see you made it through a post without saying neocon.
And do you have any apoligies for me now ? :D
how come images are restricted ?

[Indulto]

There is a difference between saying you know more about the medical field than people who are not in it and saying that people who are not in it know nothing about it. Your first hand knowledge of medicine certainly gives you insights and experiences that Lefty does not have, yet that does not mean Lefty cannot have valid opinions and thoughts on how to control the costs of medical care.

Do you see the difference between your original statement to Lefty and what I stated? Or is that just semantics to you?lsbets,
In the spirit of the sparring between you and either ljb or 46 -- which today came so tantalizingly close to meaningful debate before degenerating into the usual name-calling and clever putdowns -- let me just say that nothing ANYONE has said MEANS Lefty "cannot have valid opinions and thoughts." The problem is that nobody can PROVE otherwise.

Perhaps I could come to a different conclusion if someone could point me to a single specific off-topic post in which Lefty either disputed the merits of any issue, without using the words "left', "lib" or "dem", or justified his position without using the words "right" (referring to end of political spectrum), "conservative", or "Rep" and which contained no anti-liberal/anti-Democrat reference.

[lsbets]

Indulto, post 61 by Lefty has none of the buzzwords you look for and only a reference to Medicare being a bad program. That was followed by 46superior stating that because Lefty did not work in the medical field he was not able to have even a semblance of a real point of view.

[ljb]

Indulto,
If you look back you will find many on this board will resort to name calling and joking when confronted with facts they don't agree with. It is a sorry fact of internet bbs.

[Indulto]

Indulto, post 61 by Lefty has none of the buzzwords you look for and only a reference to Medicare being a bad program. That was followed by 46superior stating that because Lefty did not work in the medical field he was not able to have even a semblance of a real point of view.lsbets,
Thank you. I stand corrected despite his view that medicare is yet another liberal giveaway.

I can't explain how I missed that post except to say that I tend to read thread text without noticing who wrote it first unless an avatar is deployed AND it is instantly familiar like Tom's, B2's, NDJ's, or even PA's and some of CJ's. I caught #57 when he used the word "socialist."

Maybe there's still hope.

[Tom]

let's rephrase this LEFTY is brain dead and gives more evidence as the days go by. That CVA must have been more necrotic than he previously realized.

Is this an example of your diagnostic skills?
A person who is able to post is obiously not brain dead. Danged socialized medicine anyway! What do you use - magic 8 ball?

[Indulto]

Indulto,
If you look back you will find many on this board will resort to name calling and joking when confronted with facts they don't agree with. It is a sorry fact of internet bbs.lbj,
I'm all for witty namecalling and joking around, but I get the impression that such interactions between certain others and you and 46 contain some pretty serious intent. You two and they all have interesting opinons at one time or another and all will frequently engage in meaningful debate, but, apparently, not with sworn adversaries.

But, like I said, I'm encouraged by how close you guys came today.

[Lefty]

lsbets, that's the beauty of MSA's, if done right. The uninsured would have cash in their MSA acct to spend. Tom said in another thread it would be cheaper to just give everyone $10,000 bucks. What if everyone had $10,000 in theor MSA acct instead of what we're spending on Medicare? Prob be more sensible.
But, we have Medicare and it's going to be hard if not impossible to change. So bash Johnson and all the fool dems that have led us to this point, not Bush.(the last part not meant for you personally)

[ljb]

lsbets, that's the beauty of MSA's, if done right. The uninsured would have cash in their MSA acct to spend. Tom said in another thread it would be cheaper to just give everyone $10,000 bucks. What if everyone had $10,000 in theor MSA acct instead of what we're spending on Medicare? Prob be more sensible.
But, we have Medicare and it's going to be hard if not impossible to change. So bash Johnson and all the fool dems that have led us to this point, not Bush.(the last part not meant for you personally)
Another note from Lefty suggesting bashing dems. $10,000 wouldn't get you a week in the hospital today.

[Lefty]

Another note from Lefty suggesting bashing dems. $10,000 wouldn't get you a week in the hospital today.

Once again you need to think a liitle. What if I had almost all the money accrued in my acct since the 60's? Sure beats Medicare. But most anything would. The dems need beating up because their socialist ideas have hurt us greatlly.

[PaceAdvantage]

And do you have any apoligies for me now ? :D
how come images are restricted ?

Because images take up a lot more server space and bandwidth than letters, and people were routinely placing 10 or more images on a single post....how many of these -> :lol: do we need to convey the message?

[Lefty]

indulto, I plead guilty to using words like dem, lib and socialist but that's the people i'm talking about. I use political labels but I try to refrain from using words like braindead and stupid; others do not.

[46zilzal]

indulto, I plead guilty to using words like dem, lib and socialist but that's the people i'm talking about. I use political labels but I try to refrain from using words like braindead and stupid; others do not.

that is your title exclusively. No one else here meets that criterion.

[Indulto]

indulto, I plead guilty to using words like dem, lib and socialist but that's the people i'm talking about. I use political labels but I try to refrain from using words like braindead and stupid; others do not.Lefty,
Only abusers of liberal weakness willingly seek mercy in any court. ;)

The distinction between personal insults and political labeling is a fine one at best. Your use of political labels appears to address the insult either as an art form or a covert action; it requires the target to appreciate the medium in order to feel insulted, even as the "artist" attempts to avoid adverse association by seemingly suppressing specificity.

"Braindead," hardly. Somewhere between "open-minded" and "empty-headed," maybe.

[betchatoo]

Once again you need to think a liitle. What if I had almost all the money accrued in my acct since the 60's? Sure beats Medicare. But most anything would. The dems need beating up because their socialist ideas have hurt us greatlly.

Lefty:
You are aware that the Republicans have held the White House 18 of 26 years since 1980? And they've controlled Congress since Regan's second term? (or isn't that true in your world?) How long do they need to correct things?

Also, unless you've got a Delorean hidden some place that can hit a certain speed during a lightning strike, your, "if I had money accrued since the 60's," is just another woulda, coulda, shoulda story.

[Tom]

So Bet, being a horseracing board and all, those PPs you posted for control of the government 1980 might suggest the problem is the REPUBLICANS?
And at the end of that lone 8 year span, we had trillions of dollars in surplus?

Hard to skip over.

[Lefty]

Lefty,
Only abusers of liberal weakness willingly seek mercy in any court. ;)

The distinction between personal insults and political labeling is a fine one at best. Your use of political labels appears to address the insult either as an art form or a covert action; it requires the target to appreciate the medium in order to feel insulted, even as the "artist" attempts to avoid adverse association by seemingly suppressing specificity.

"Braindead," hardly. Somewhere between "open-minded" and "empty-headed," maybe.
Indul, I'm not seeking mercy from you or anyone else. I use political labels, and you guys use personal insult and you try to equate them? I do not shy away from the term conservative but you guys shy away from what you are. Hmmm. I'll still keep my rhetoric a cut above you guys because I can win an argument on the merits and do not have to resort to the personal insult.
Thank ya, thank ya very much.

[Lefty]

Lefty:
You are aware that the Republicans have held the White House 18 of 26 years since 1980? And they've controlled Congress since Regan's second term? (or isn't that true in your world?) How long do they need to correct things?

Also, unless you've got a Delorean hidden some place that can hit a certain speed during a lightning strike, your, "if I had money accrued since the 60's," is just another woulda, coulda, shoulda story.
bet, yeah hard to turn things around with a slim majority and with the dems fighting against tooth and nail.

It's a coulda woulda shoulda story cause if Johnson had given us MSA's instead of medicare we woulda had that money. Them dems screw everything up and you guys dismiss it with statements like this. Weak as water.

[ljb]

bet, yeah hard to turn things around with a slim majority and with the dems fighting against tooth and nail.

It's a coulda woulda shoulda story cause if Johnson had given us MSA's instead of medicare we woulda had that money. Them dems screw everything up and you guys dismiss it with statements like this. Weak as water.
Lefty,
A slim majority is still a majority and with a President that has yet to veto anything, the Republicans are running the show and are responsible for all the messes we are in. Your if this and if thats are getting old Lefty, face it, the Repubs have screwed up big time. 10 + years controlling congress and 6 + controlling the Whitehouse leaves much to be desired for the average man on the street.

[NoDayJob]

Get rid of both parties and replace them with at least one party that will not rape our Constitution? Unfortunately, that will not happen. Not in my lifetime. :lol:

[Indulto]

Get rid of both parties and replace them with at least one party that will not rape our Constitution? Unfortunately, that will not happen. Not in my lifetime. NDJ,
The Republicans will never replace themselves, but progressives, independents, and discouraged Democrats might now see more sense in supporting a third party running on an anti-corruption, anti-fraud platform. War cannot be an issue other than to demonstrate waste, incompetence, and profiteering; and that Congress needs to resume a more active role in framing and overseeing military objectives and foreign policy decisions.

Anti-character-defamation strategies must be prepared to offset the effects of major party negative campaigning. Awareness and education of both the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence should be promoted and their principles utilized as the basis for ethical rebuttal of religious special interests while defending freedom of religion.

Unimpeachable "Truth Squads" need to be funded to supplement the press, not only to ensure accuracy from the opposition, but to keep the reform effort on track as well. Taxing windfall profits on energy and medication, lowering health-care and education costs, and overcoming public school deficiencies need to be prominently and intelligently debated.

Free-market solutions without corruption, windfall profits, or monopolistic practices should be clearly identified and encouraged. Secrecy in non-military activities by the government needs to be discouraged.

[JPinMaryland]

Unimpeachable "Truth Squads" need to be funded to supplement the press, not only to ensure accuracy from the opposition, but to keep the reform effort on track as well..


I think Stalin tried this. No?

[Indulto]

I think Stalin tried this. No?Touche!
Of course my intended use of the term "Truth Squad" was that employed by modern-day TV/Radio news shows which, unfortunately, are too little involved in that process.

[ljb]

I see four parties currently, maybe 5.
The liberal democrats (Nader)
The moderate democrats (Dean)
The conservative democrats (Hillary)
The republicans (?)
The neocons (Bush)

[Indulto]

I see four parties currently, maybe 5.
The liberal democrats (Nader)
The moderate democrats (Dean)
The conservative democrats (Hillary)
The republicans (?)
The neocons (Bush)ljb,
The parties of Jefferson and Lincoln, respectively, are no more. Both the Democrats and Republicans represent powerful financial and corporate interests or they couldn't raise the campaign funds they do. Does the party of Nader sound right to you? IMO no more than the party of Dean or Clinton (HR or WJ). An articulate, principled, but pragmatic leader needs to emerge without baggage, but from where I have no idea!

[Tom]

bet, yeah hard to turn things around with a slim majority and with the dems fighting against tooth and nail.

It's a coulda woulda shoulda story cause if Johnson had given us MSA's instead of medicare we woulda had that money. Them dems screw everything up and you guys dismiss it with statements like this. Weak as water.

So you are saying the repubs and prez have failed to get the job done? And won't even try many issues becasue they have given up?

[betchatoo]

So Bet, being a horseracing board and all, those PPs you posted for control of the government 1980 might suggest the problem is the REPUBLICANS?
And at the end of that lone 8 year span, we had trillions of dollars in surplus?

Hard to skip over.

Actually, Tom, as much as I'd like to blame Republicans for everything, I believe that all our elected officials share blame for our problems. An absolute refusal to cooperate in the best interest of the people is the root of the problem. However, (and I have to get at least one liberal dig in), the Republicans have had the power for a long time, and it was only under a Dem (the feared and hated Clinton) we ended up with a surplus. Make your own conclusion. Or, being a horse racing board, decide how you'd bet.

[Lefty]

Tom, Prez tried his best to get SS reform and got shot dn by the dems and the press. He's tried more reforms than any pres i can remember. He did get the tax cuts through and the economy is sailing. One man can't do it all and a slim majority is no guarantee of anything.

[Lefty]

bet, yeah but under Clinton we had The Gingrich 94 congress which forced a balanced budget and welfare reform. Clinton fght tooth and nail and when he finally had to relent he took the credit when it worked.

[betchatoo]

bet, yeah but under Clinton we had The Gingrich 94 congress which forced a balanced budget and welfare reform. Clinton fght tooth and nail and when he finally had to relent he took the credit when it worked.

Then how come Bush had to screw up the balanced budget so badly? And how come welfare costs have climbed under him and a Republican congress?

[Lefty]

bet, I outlined what happened under the Gingrich Congress. Now you want me to exolain everything the pres and this congress are doing? Wow.
For one thing costs climb under every budget because of baseline budgeting.
And Bush is not tough enough on social spending, not wanting to be perceived as mean and stingy by Dems and Press, I can only surmise. Remember the Time article, The Gingrich That Stole Christmas?
And then there's the war. Freedom costs lotssa dough.
Since i'm not part of the inner circle of the WH or Congress, this is about as far as i can take this except to say the Repubs have a razor thin majority and within that group there are too many moderate repubs who are just about as bad as dems.

[lsbets]

The Republican Congress of 94 and the Republican Congress of today bear a resemblance in name only. In 94, Gingrich was the face out front, but he was supported by a cast of both visionaries and power players who were able to pull the more moderate members of the caucus into their camp because they knew it was good politics. While guys like Tom Delay were the enforcers who ensured the votes would go their way, it was guys like Watts and Kasich who provided the vision that guided the ideas. The visionary guys left - either because they believed in term limits and felt their time was up, or because they got tired of the DC game. All that left the Republican leadership with was the power players, who when they had no vision to attach their desire to, simply attached that desire to money.

That is also pretty close to what happenned to the Democrats when they degenerated into a party of money and special interests, and is a major part of what led to their demise. Now we are left with two major parties bereft of ideas and more interested in personal gain and power.

We desperately need a credible third party, but most of the ones out there can't get the job done, because they have one or two looney positions that are front and center to their platform. Ross Perot's ego destroyed the most viable third party we have seen in the last 100 years.

I can only think of one good reason to vote to reelect my Republican Congressman this fall, and that is the Democrat running against him. Until one of the parties undergoes a rebirth and begins to focus on ideas instead of power, neither party offers a good alternative. The problem is we the people do not demand this of those we elect.

[JustRalph]

I can only think of one good reason to vote to reelect my Republican Congressman this fall, and that is the Democrat running against him.

Same here. Once again, the less of two evils

[Tom]

I have to say the having one party control both branches is a bad thing. Either the WH or congress has to go democrate this time. Gridlock is highly preferable to either cash and carry party.

[Lefty]

I have to say the having one party control both branches is a bad thing. Either the WH or congress has to go democrate this time. Gridlock is highly preferable to either cash and carry party.
I strongly disagree. Then NOTHING gets done.
Give the Repubs a Super Majority and let's see what happens. Dems had majority over 40 years and got this country in friggin mess. We need tto get a big majority for at least 8-12 yrs to straighten it out, if it's not too late already.

[lsbets]

Lefty - nothing is getting done because no one wants to do anything.

There is no filibuster in the house, and the Dems have not actually filibustered anything in the Senate. They've threatened filibusters and the Republicans have folded like cheap chairs every time. They don't need a super majority, they need some balls.

[betchatoo]

bet, I outlined what happened under the Gingrich Congress. Now you want me to exolain everything the pres and this congress are doing? Wow.
For one thing costs climb under every budget because of baseline budgeting.
And Bush is not tough enough on social spending, not wanting to be perceived as mean and stingy by Dems and Press, I can only surmise. Remember the Time article, The Gingrich That Stole Christmas?
And then there's the war. Freedom costs lotssa dough.
Since i'm not part of the inner circle of the WH or Congress, this is about as far as i can take this except to say the Repubs have a razor thin majority and within that group there are too many moderate repubs who are just about as bad as dems.

Lefty:

If I were you I'd apply for Karl Rove's job. You can take Republican crap and swear to the world it's meat loaf.

[Tom]

Lefty - nothing is getting done because no one wants to do anything.

There is no filibuster in the house, and the Dems have not actually filibustered anything in the Senate. They've threatened filibusters and the Republicans have folded like cheap chairs every time. They don't need a super majority, they need some balls.


Great post! And ture.

Cheap chairs? :lol:
With an ass in each one! :lol:

[Tom]

Lefty:

If I were you I'd apply for Karl Rove's job. You can take Republican crap and swear to the world it's meat loaf.

Or Baghdad Bob's old job! :rolleyes:

[Indulto]

Lefty:

If I were you I'd apply for Karl Rove's job. You can take Republican crap and swear to the world it's meat loaf.
Scooter's old job might be more suitable; less chance of running into a "moderate."

[Lefty]

Thanks for your vote of confidence, gents, but i'll take the repub crap over the dem/lib/socialist crap any ol day and three times, three times, threee times, on Sunday!