Uh-oh. Am I sounding liberal?

[Dave Schwartz]

So, today I watched the Oprah Winfrey Show. Yup. Saint Oprah (as she's called at my house).

Actually, I DVR'ed it so I could watch it tonight.

Now, I know that you know there is a catch. Bill and Melinda Gates were on discussing their passion. (Much more of the passion than the Gates, btw.)

Anyway, this show was about the educational system in the U.S. and it was appalling. The short version is that the education system is in trouble.

http://www2.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/200604/tows_past_20060411.jhtml

Yes, I know that you knew that. I knew it too. I just did not realize how big the trouble was.

The Two major issues discussed today were:

1. Even the top students in middle class (and up) neighborhoods are not prepared for the technical subjects at college.

One segment had a class valedictorian who simply could not get into a major school and found herself overwhelmed even by the small college she did get into.

2. The schools themselves are so drastically different between white and black neighborhoods.

Again, we all know there is a difference and much of it can be explained by the angry culture of inner school communities.

At least that is what I thought but these differences are off the scale; way beyond anything that can be attributed to... anything that resembles the fault of the community.

For example, one school they showed in the white community had a brand new $62 million facility - huge gym, swimming pool, computer labs - they even had a state-of-the-art exercise room for the kids to work out after school!

Meanwhile, at the other school (just a few miles away in the inner city) the school was literally falling apart. Music is taught without instruments, many of the bathrooms don't work, the roofs leak and plaster actually falls from the ceiling.

(During an exchange of students between the two schools, one of the white girls says, "Where is the cardio room?")

The series concludes tomorrow.

FWIW, this is simply wrong.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[DJofSD]

Dave,

I didn't see the "O" show today. I don't need to see a replay of what I'm exposed to on an almost daily basis via my son's public school.

I lay the blame for our inadequate students directly at the feet of the parents.

Our children's first and best teachers are the parents. Do they encourage learning? No, they just tolerate it. Can they even understand what it is their sons and daughters are being taught? Sometimes the sad answer is no.

A political pundit labels it the dumbing down of America. In my first hand experience, it applies.

[twindouble]

Dave,

I didn't see the "O" show today. I don't need to see a replay of what I'm exposed to on an almost daily basis via my son's public school.

I lay the blame for our inadequate students directly at the feet of the parents.

Our children's first and best teachers are the parents. Do they encourage learning? No, they just tolerate it. Can they even understand what it is their sons and daughters are being taught? Sometimes the sad answer is no.

A political pundit labels it the dumbing down of America. In my first hand experience, it applies.

When it comes to parenting this is what I said in another thread. " The greater percentage of woman today are slaves, they were taken out of the home to work, what they are earning today is no longer a plus for the family,they need that money just to survive. Take the mother away from the kids and father still works or left home, there is no parenting for the children. No big mystery in my opinion, it' destructive on all levels ESP in the poorer neighborhoods.

T.D.

[DJofSD]

TD,

OMG, shades of Dr. Laura!

[twindouble]

TD,

OMG, shades of Dr. Laura!

I have no clue who Dr. Laura is, if she's not in the racing form, in the sports pages, the OB's I'll never know.


T.D.

[Fwizard]

I am a high school teacher and some of the reasons kids can't learn is because our culture has changed --we now think it's better to "love" one another instead of "drill and kill" concepts like we did when I went to school. We (teachers) now have restrictions on how mant tests we can give, how much homework we can assign etc.. Just recently a girl in my class who is a borderline student (D) bombed a test so I called her mom to explain my concern over her test scores(BTW, this student is smart just immature) --The parent was more worried that the other kids didn't find out her grades instead of what steps could we both take to improve her performance.

[Dave Schwartz]

FWiz,

I found that this show totally ignores the impact of social issues, parents, culture, etc. - in other words, it focused just on the schools themselves.

While there is certainly more to the problem than school board and money, the point that was driven home is that we are using a school system that was designed in (and for) the industrial age of the 1950's and has not been modernized to address the new challenges faced by this generation.

What I got from the show is simply this: The system is not working and needs to be redesigned completely.

Is there a school district in the country that doesn't have to start every year by answering the "What do we cut this year question?" We have been doing that for 20+ years now.

Everything from teachers' salaries to bureaucracy issues to the physical plants themselves need to be addressed.

Paying for schools is seen as a "necessary evil" in our society. This must change.

But the problems in our schools are not going to be solved just with more money. The money has to be spent differently.


The one thing that was ignored on the show is the fact that we now live in a violent society. This violent society seems to start in th school system. We are trying to force-feed violent teenagers an education. Not only does that not work for them but it destroys the chances that many others have by creating a hostile environment; one that is not conducive to education.

In considering the inner city schools from the show, I can only imagine that were they handed a school as nice as the one shown from the suburbs it would quickly be destoryed by the anger and violence in the culture.

It is all well and good that everyone deserves the same opportunity for education. Unfortunately, the segment of our population that needs that educational opportunity the most seems to (collectively) destroy that opportunity.

(I would be really interested on hearing your opinion of the above paragraph.s Do you see it like this or do I have it wrong?)


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Snag]

One thing that I have learned is if you look at the administration of any school district, you will find it top heavy. The money spent on these people is not being spent on building up keep, books, or teachers. It goes like this:

1. What is the ratio of admin to students. I found that when my girls were going to school, it was 1.4 admin to each student. Don't be suprised at what you find. We got it changed but it took three years.

2. What is the ratio of building up keep dollars to money spent on new books each year. You may find that to be about 1:1.

3. What is the teacher to student ratio per school not just the district.

All of this info is online for most districts budget. If it isn't, you may find a problem like that Gate's found. It all starts at the top and we all know what flows down hill.

[Tom]

Teaching music without any instruments?
So that's were all those "air guitar " players come from!

But, speaking as one who feels raped by the exccessive amount of shcoiol taxes I have to pay - I am not getting my money's worth.
I am not signing up to pay for football uniforms, buses for away games, band, and the mirad of crap we are told is necessary for a well rouded education. BS.
Let's get an effective education,. with basic skills mandatory befreo any going to the next calss - with national standard, not a curve to grade on. Everythin else can be taken care of by the private families - I get ZERO benefit from footbal, basketball, band, etc. It is unfair to expect me to foot the bill - you wanted kids? Great! YOU pay for them, not me. It is in my interest to support/pay for basic educational needs, and nothing more.
Get the libs out of the ecucational system and hire some manufacturing executives to run the schools - you know, with goals, metrics, corrective actions - run the damn schools like a business. People who have some accountability. and set minimum standards for ALL schools - and hold people accountable for meeting them.
And dangle the carrot out there - anyone who can meet the requirements and can maintain a B average should get college paid for - as far as they want to go. What better investment in our country than intelligent people.

[chickenhead]

We spend more money per student on education than any other country in the world.

I forget where it was, somewhere in the midwest, the state was constantly hearing from its schools how they needed more money. So they decided to do a test, and gave one school some obscene amount of money and a free hand to spend it. The school built an olympic pool, hired more teachers, all sorts of things. This school looked like a university by the time they were done spending money. Result? Grades went down slightly.

Once again I think the biggest problem (that can be addressed head on and actually fixed) is the stranglehold of the union and the lack of competetion.

I mentioned how some European countries use a voucher system to very good effect. One of them said something like:

"We don't understand you Americans. If your gov't told you what barbershop to go to, or what restaraunt you must eat at, you would have armed rebellion in the street. Why is it you allow the school your child goes to, something vastly more important, to be dictated to you?"

I had never thought about it in those terms, but that is an extremely on point observation, one that I don't have an answer to other than perhaps apathy.

Of course parents need to do a better job. But we live in a democracy, we have freedoms, and unfortunately that includes the freedom to be worthless and uninterested. What we need are schools that don't lower the bar for everyone, that allows those parents and those children with something on the ball to not be drug down to the lowest common denominator.

[46zilzal]

I have no clue who Dr. Laura is, if she's not in the racing form, in the sports pages, the OB's I'll never know.
T.D.
she's a "Holier than thou" broad with a PhD in physiology who portrays herself as a radio psychologist. Check out her nude spread in Hustler too.

[chickenhead]

There was recent big fight in SF over redistricting. Turns out SF has a negative growth rate of children (gay pop + straight people just not having kids), so it's schools each year have less and less children.

So we end up with districts (schools) that only have like 40 students. You've got an entire bureacracy in place for these 40 students, superintendents all the way down to janitors and security. Just an incredible waste of money.

So the city/county says wait a minute, this is ridiculous, let's merge some of these districts together, as they are things are totally inefficient and don't make sense. We'll keep almost all the teachers, but we don't need all this duplicate bureacracy.

You'd have thought they proposed public lynchings in the town square, the teachers union (and some parents) went into full scale revolt, city wide strikes threatened, HUGE political fiasco. All because the city council wanted to do their jobs, make a commonsense change, and save the community money and provide better schools.

[JustRalph]

she's a "Holier than thou" broad with a PhD in physiology who portrays herself as a radio psychologist. Check out her nude spread in Hustler too.


Hustler? I will forward your remark to her website and see if it is true........

[twindouble]

she's a "Holier than thou" broad with a PhD in physiology who portrays herself as a radio psychologist. Check out her nude spread in Hustler too.

What the hell did I say to DJ that was "Holier than thou" I just stated facts!

[twindouble]

I'll stick to what I said as to the underlining cause of all the problems we have with kids today.

What do you all expect, you send some kid to school that's broken in every witch way you can think of and you don't expect problems with him or her. Then throw the down and dirty crap at them on TV, in the movies, on the computer and on your own dam streets. Adults for years promoted the use of drugs and every form of violence one can think off. Any kid that can survive all that deserves a chest full of purple hearts. We have to clean up our own act before you can reach any child and like I said, it starts at home. A freaking building is just bricks an mortar. Children are living breathing things, with a heart, feelings and a sole, what's left of it anyway. You can't wipe out all that went wrong with money.

T.D.

[betchatoo]

As a self-proclaimed know-it-all, this topic bugs me because I don't have the answers. I believe I do know the underlying causes, but so what?

Somewhere over the last 30 years we stopped teaching children manners, discipline and accepting responsibility for their actions. The rich often eschew teaching these things to children for fear it will "stifle their creativity." The poor don't do it either because they have not learned it themselves or they are so busy just trying to make ends meet that they don't have the time to teach these things. To those who say, "in that case they shouldn't have children," surprisingly, I don't disagree. Doing so when you don't have the means to raise them properly goes back to not accepting accountability and consequences.

When we send these children to school it means so much time is spent just trying to keep order that it severely limits the time available to actually teach. We handicap teachers in this manner and then ask, "why aren't you doing a better job?" My guess is that most of those teachers who really care, who want to make a difference have either gone to private schools or left the profession, greatly disillusioned.

I have no problem with using the voucher system and allowing kids to enroll in the trade school, private school or specialty school of their choice. I do draw the line at parochial schools. I believe every parent has the privilege of raising and educating their children in the religion of their choice. However, they need to pay for this privilege. For those who say I'm discriminating against the poor, most religious groups offer generous scholarship plans for those at low income.

Tom: While I am also childless, I disagree with you on paying for sports programs. Joining a team can teach you about rules, discipline and teamwork in a way for many that would not learn it otherwise. Having young people who learned those things would benefit your area in the long run.

I will now (temporarily) step off my soapbox

[schweitz]

I lay the blame for our inadequate students directly at the feet of the parents.

Our children's first and best teachers are the parents. Do they encourage learning? No, they just tolerate it. Can they even understand what it is their sons and daughters are being taught? Sometimes the sad answer is no.

Bingo---part one.

[schweitz]

One thing that I have learned is if you look at the administration of any school district, you will find it top heavy. The money spent on these people is not being spent on building up keep, books, or teachers. It goes like this:

1. What is the ratio of admin to students. I found that when my girls were going to school, it was 1.4 admin to each student. Don't be suprised at what you find. We got it changed but it took three years.

2. What is the ratio of building up keep dollars to money spent on new books each year. You may find that to be about 1:1.

3. What is the teacher to student ratio per school not just the district.

All of this info is online for most districts budget. If it isn't, you may find a problem like that Gate's found. It all starts at the top and we all know what flows down hill.



Bingo---part two.

[lsbets]

My Mom is a retired NYC teacher. According to her, the primary difference between what kids did well and what kids struggled was how involved the parents were. If the parents made the kids do homework, came to parent teacher conferences, and held their kids accountable for their grades, the kids had a much better chance of succeeding.

Don't forget, over the last 30 years our society has changed dramatically. Being a single parent is normal and acceptable. I would never argue that people should not have the right to get divorced, but that has become the easy answer now. Married couples all too often don't try to work it out, instead they walk away. And the ones who suffer are the children. Joint custody is a joke. The kids don't know where they live as they spend half the week at one house and half at the other, with different rules at both.

Even in two parent households, it seems that attention is paid to everything except for what matters - school. How many people sit down to dinner with their kids every night and talk about the day at school? How many people read a book to their kids everynight? Instead, kids have all kinds of structured activities 4 or 5 days a week that make sitting at the dinner table as a famaly impossible and don't give kids a chance to do the most important thing they can do - be a kid. One of our friends asked me why I'm not signing my son up for 4 year old tee ball. Why should I? He's 4. He could give a rat's ass about organized sports at his age, he just wants to pley. We go outside and play ball for 10 minutes, then he decides he wants to chase the dog, than he decides he wants to throw his football, than he wants to tackle his sister, than he wants to jump on the neighbors trampoline, etc, etc, etc ...... He's four. Instead of trying to structure our kids learning environments, we are trying to structure their fun environment. As a society our priorities are all wrong.

[twindouble]

I will now (temporarily) step off my soapbox. Quote; Bechatoo;


Good thing because I was thinking kicking it out from under you. :D

Just kidding. I don't think the answer is packing up, run to better conditions and surroundings, that's just avoiding the problems, plus there's many that don't have that choice.

I'm not one to blame all on the teachers, how could I after what I said so to some degree I agree with you, depending on what they are teaching and how they handle problems.

Sports are fine with me as long as there isn't a bunch of dumb ass parents that are pushing their children to the extreme to succeed at it. Those that do are most cases are also destructive to the kids well being.


Somewhere over the last 30 years we stopped teaching children manners, discipline and accepting responsibility for their actions. The rich often eschew teaching these things to children for fear it will "stifle their creativity." The poor don't do it either because they have not learned it themselves or they are so busy just trying to make ends meet that they don't have the time to teach these things. To those who say, "in that case they shouldn't have children," surprisingly, I don't disagree. Doing so when you don't have the means to raise them properly goes back to not accepting accountability and consequences. Quote; Betchatoo.

It all boils down to nurturing and family. If a woman can't afford to have a child and can't provide the necessary nurturing then don't have them. Make a mistake, give the child up for adoption rather than kill it. The same should apply to woman where their job or career is more important than children. Wasn't to long ago woman didn't even have that option, to any great degree.

Those that are stuck in mud of social and economic negative change that's been piled on them for the last 4 decades like drugs, abuse, welfare, lack of education, teen pregnancy perpetuates the problems and that won't change for decades to come. Anyone that can or attempts to pull themselves out from under that miserable condition is worth helping.


T.D.

[DJofSD]

TD,

Ignore 23z, Dr. Laura is a very much a conservative, politically, socially and economically. She is the antithesis of everything the castrati stand for.

Part of what she preaches is that it is the parents job, not society, not the local school board or the government, to raise you kids.

[twindouble]

TD,

Ignore 23z, Dr. Laura is a very much a conservative, politically, socially and economically. She is the antithesis of everything the castrati stand for.

Part of what she preaches is that it is the parents job, not society, not the local school board or the government, to raise you kids.

The only one I ever saw on TV was Dr Ruth, that was some time ago. Got my attention because she was explaining how to improve your sex life while the kids were at camp. I watch very little TV, catch the news skipping around, just to see how things are reported, like I said most twist it to suit their political position or agenda. I've got knack of weeding out the bull , no different than I do while handicapping. Sounds like I could except Dr Laura.

T.D.

[witchdoctor]

I have seen both sides of the education mess. When I was in residency, I had to go to a free clinic in south San Antonio. The social worker took me to a high school(South San if I remember correctly) that had a 40% drop out rate. It apalled me that the school had NO air conditioning and you had to go port-a-potties if you had to go to the restroom. I thought it was amazing 60% could finish.


A couple of years ago, a friend who teaches advanced placement chemistry in the Tulsa area asked me to talk to his classes about medicine and med school since most of them were going to be premed. When he showed me what his kids were doing, it was what I was doing as a sophmore in college.

[Tom]

Tom: While I am also childless, I disagree with you on paying for sports programs. Joining a team can teach you about rules, discipline and teamwork in a way for many that would not learn it otherwise. Having young people who learned those things would benefit your area in the long run.

I will now (temporarily) step off my soapbox


Gym class. THEY buy the shorts and sneakers, end of story. In fact, make gym class 4 hours every afternoon - keep the fat of those young butts and the dope out of their mouths. All for free! Then send them out to mow our lawns, shovel our driveways, wash our cars....that'll build character and teach em respect to boot!

[MONEY]

The only one I ever saw on TV was Dr Ruth

Dr. Ruth, I can remember about 30 years ago while listening to my car radio, I heard Dr. Ruth give the worst advice to a caller that I ever heard. She said " If it feels good it's OK to do it"

Isn't that what's wrong with the world today.
Everyone wants to do whatever makes them happy or feel good instead of what's right.
I call it the Dr. Ruth mentality.

[Lefty]

Schools are govt controlled and teachers unions keep bad teachers in jobs and also we have parents that don't give a damn. Kids in urban areas are forced to go to bad schools. Enter competition. Enter school vouchers. But public education as we know it, is beyond repair.

[Lefty]

46 zilly. Dr. Laura is one smart broad. She is succeeding in a competitive market. Guessthat rankles your socialist bones.

[46zilzal]

46 zilly. Dr. Laura is one smart broad. She is succeeding in a competitive market. Guessthat rankles your socialist bones.
don't care one way or the other

[Lefty]

don't care one way or the other

Sure you do or you wouldn't have posted. I find you the most disengenous character on this board.

[DJofSD]

don't care one way or the other

C. o. S.

[46zilzal]

Sure you do or you wouldn't have posted. I find you the most disengenous character on this board.
what would you do without labelling everyone?

[Lefty]

46zilly, labels are a useful tool. With them we can tell the soup from the nuts.

[Fwizard]

Dave S,

The system doesn't work --let me give you an example of funds being spent in the incorrect way--When my school gets money to improve we always try to spend it in the most "show-off" way---we purchased state of the art projectors at a cost of 10,000 each--we have over 100 classrooms that were fitted for them--but when I need a class set (35) of scissors to help my class make geometric figures I am turned down because of lack of funds--so it is up to me to buy them or the kids don't use them.

Second, you mentioned that in this violent society we try to force feed violent teenagers an education--this is very true!!! What happens when you do this is the other students are taken down a level because the teacher has to correct behavior problems instead of teaching those that want an education---why don't we supply those kids with vocational schools to attend where they might be interested in and do well---learn a trade and be prepared to get a job after school instead of having nothing to show for it.

Stop talking about "main-streaming" kids when it hurts all students involved.

[twindouble]

Second, you mentioned that in this violent society we try to force feed violent teenagers an education--this is very true!!! What happens when you do this is the other students are taken down a level because the teacher has to correct behavior problems instead of teaching those that want an education---why don't we supply those kids with vocational schools to attend where they might be interested in and do well---learn a trade and be prepared to get a job after school instead of having nothing to show for it.

Stop talking about "main-streaming" kids when it hurts all students involved.

I don't know how many schools left that have vocational shops but I aways thought they offered an important oppertunity to those kids that were accademically challenged or just didn't have the interest in higher education for one reason or another. The majority of my friends did well with a vocational education, as a matter of fact a good percentage of them opened their own businesses, others made their mark as excellect craftsmen. Even those that didn't have the drive to be on their own hardly ever lacked for work. At the time Unions were quick to snap up the graduates in their apprentice programs. Those kids that were hell bent on distruction amounted to a very small percentage, I can remember just one murder all through the 50s and 60s. Now every time I pick up the paper someone got shot, stabbed or beat to death and all are drug related.

T.D.

[Dave Schwartz]

FWiz & Twin,

I received some of my higher education in Northern Ireland under the British system of education. The system was based upon "O" (ordinary) and "A" (Advanced") levels.

Basically, at age 16 or so, a student would have completed his "O" levels. This is the point at which many students would switch to a vocational school. It was considered socially acceptable for students to change tracks at that point and it was understood that not everyone would continue on with their "A" levels.

In other words, students were not guaranteed 12 years of education, only 10. Neither were they forced or socially coerced to stay for what we would call the last two years of high school.

My children go/went to a pretty good high school - (Please note that Reno has no "inner city"). Nevertheless, I see a "dumbing down" of the entire system because the bar has been lowered to allow the slowest/laziest students to feel good about themselves. (That is the pervasive attitude in California - which has bled over the border.)


Some years ago I had a client who taught AP (Advanced Placement) physics in the San Francisco school district. I recall him relating a story of being hauled before the school board for being "elitist." That is what the educators in California call providing higher-level classes for the potential intelligentsia of the next generation. He was actually called a racist because his classes did not have "a proper racial balance."

This is just ludicrous!


Wiz, as for your comments about how the money is spent, that makes perfect sense to me. We see that here as well.

When will they wise up?

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[chickenhead]

It was interesting talking to a guy I know who teaches Math at a local high school. The schools have to report on various things soon that are related to no child left behind.

Part of the "grading" process is whether kids are in their proper levels, so for instance if a HS soph is supposed to be in Algebra 1 as a minimum level, but instead is taking a remedial math class, the school automatically gets the lowest grade possible for that student, doesn't matter whether he gets an A or a D.

That actually makes some sense to me, though the teacher thought it was ludicrous. But anyway, how do the schools get around it? Well apparently if the kid is enrolled in the school lunch program (not from a very wealthy family) a different set of standards apply, and that same kid would get a better score.

So, with a few weeks to go before this grading, the school scoured their roles, found all the kids eligible for free school lunch but not receiving it (because they didn't need it), and asked them to please sign up, pretty please.

So the school boosted their "performance" by a hefty amount, by giving away more free lunches.

[twindouble]

In other words, students were not guaranteed 12 years of education, only 10. Neither were they forced or socially coerced to stay for what we would call the last two years of high school. Quote; Dave.

That's an interesting concept, how successful do you think it was compared what goes on here?

I wonder why we don't look to othere cultures that are or have been successful in providing excellent schooling, like Japan and China. I know there's many cutural difference but I would think we could learn something from them.


So the school boosted their "performance" by a hefty amount, by giving away more free lunches. Quote; Fwizard.

Wizard, if this scam is publicly known, how do they get away with it?


T.D.

[Fwizard]

I don't think that quote was mine--but the schools all "massage" numbers--you can go in any class and see kids in the wrong placement, do schools do it for the benefit of the child or to improve their performance scores.

[twindouble]

I don't think that quote was mine--but the schools all "massage" numbers--you can go in any class and see kids in the wrong placement, do schools do it for the benefit of the child or to improve their performance scores.


Yes your right it was Chickhead's quote; I have an attention deficit disorder. :D

[Dave Schwartz]

In other words, students were not guaranteed 12 years of education, only 10. Neither were they forced or socially coerced to stay for what we would call the last two years of high school. Quote; Dave.

That's an interesting concept, how successful do you think it was compared what goes on here?

Well, remember that was a long time ago - late 1960's. (Did I mention I am old?)

I can only tell you that I was way behind when I got there.


Dave

[Tom]

46zilly, labels are a useful tool. With them we can tell the soup from the nuts.

We got soup on this board, too? :rolleyes: