BRIS/DRF data problems (was BRIS scratches)

[takeout]

BRIS is the ONLY outfit that gets its data from DRF. DRF doesn't even get its data from DRF. Now I ask you, is that screwed up or what?

rrbauer,

Wouldn't it be easier to switch to TSN or ITS than to fix and work around all of that stuff? I just use the pdfs but I couldn't use the BRIS/DRF stuff ten years ago and I still can't. They've got some good stuff but there's just too much in there (for me) that doesn't agree with the rest of the world.

Do you get results files from them also? If so, what did you do about the files for 9-13,14,15 of 2001? Did you get them elsewhere? BRIS doesn't have them because DRF never got them and as far as I know, neither company ever saw fit to go back and get them.

[rrbauer]

I don't use results files. I use DRF multi-file from BRIS because I have databases that were built and maintained using that data. I use Formulator export files from DRF to get some additional stuff that BRIS DRF files don't have. I also use the BRIS' super stats file to supplement my other data. Particularly the sheets that I print and use for my handicapping.

When I started doing this neither TSN or ITS existed. I did use ITS for some time to get Beyer numbers and saddle-cloth stuff and supplemented the BRIS DRF data from that (and printed the ITS form). When they got crosswise with DRF and went to Equibase I stopped using them and for a time went back to buying the printed DRF and updating my stuff the old-fashioned way via the fat-finger keyboard method. I even made my own Beyer numbers for awhile (something that I had done years ago before Racing Times came along).

Anyway, because of the depth of my historical databases and the specific data that I'm gleaning from the various sources, I'm just not up to doing the modifications it would take to change my data sources. Certainly if I were starting from scratch I would not be as inflexible in my choices.

[takeout]

Rrbauer,

Thanks for the explanation. I thought you must've had a lot of sweat equity invested in them. It's interesting that you mention pulling stuff from here and there. It seems that all of the resellers have one or two nice features (or better way of doing something) but they can't all be found at one place. I find it strange that I sometimes see something clever and then something else that's lacking in the same product.

[GR1@HTR]

Doesn't DRF also own Thorograph or something like that?

[takeout]

Now that you mention it I do seem to recall reading something about those two but maybe it's just autosuggestion. :) If they do have some affiliation, neither one seems to be advertising it. Equibase owns Trackmaster now. You didn't mean that, did you?

[gillenr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Equibase provide ALL the data for DRF & BRIS? The only difference is how they present it.

[BillW]

Originally posted by gillenr
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Equibase provide ALL the data for DRF & BRIS? The only difference is how they present it.

gillenr,

You're too much of an optimist (sorry couldn't resist :D )

Yes it all comes from the same place but for the computer, the differences can be maddening.

One specific instance: I am in the middle of switching from Bris to TSN (geographically right across the hall from each other) Jockey Larry Sterling appears in the Bris PP files as : STERLING L J JR and in the TSN files as: STERLING JR. LARRY J.

This is barring any other mix-up such as dropping the jr. or maybe middle name.

But the point is as easy as it is for a human to tell that these 2 jocks are one and the same, computers are a different story.

Things like this should be easy to keep in sync from the beginning, and probably more effort goes into scrambling the data so that it appears different, than just leaving it alone.

I guess they just want to keep us on our toes :rolleyes:

Bill

[gillenr]

They probably never anticipated us using data files. I think BRIS was text when I started using them years ago. & back then, they may have had different sources also.
As hard it is for you to deal with the differences, imagine DRF & BRIS trying to agree on a common format. & it might be a Federal anti-trust violation.
There are no pessimists on the mutuel lines!

[BillW]

gillenr,

I would imagine any data differences are created between DRF and Equibase. I doubt that Bris is anything but a victim, as we are to any and all errors/differences given to them. Possibly even with licensing constraints on how much they can alter/correct the data.

I would imagine the differing formats in the way jockeys and trainers are named are created on purpose by Equibase (for what reason, I don't know) It's kind of hard for 2 different naming formats to appear from a single source spontaneously.
:)


Bill

[takeout]

I think we are all victims of this charade.

Equibase is, and has been for about 10 years now, what DRF used to be, which is the sole collector of the data. IOW, Equibase pays the chart callers. All of the resellers (like DRF) take the basic data from Equibase and add their numbers and whatever to it before they sell it to us. All of that is fine. What I can't fathom is why DRF's trainer names don't agree with those in the Equibase data. They are obviously doing their own thing with the trainer names and it's a mess. Since they haven't collected the data for years now, where are these names coming from? More importantly, why aren't they coming from Equibase? And why would they take a race that's a non-winners of 3-in-3-months and label it as non-winners of 3 in a year? Indeed, they label all such races that way. It doesn't matter if it's 3-in-3, 1-in-6, 3-in-6, whatever. It's all in a year to them. If that's "DRF data" then they can keep it. I'm guessing that BRIS started TSN because there was no other way out of this mess. IMO the coexistence of these two companies, Equibase and DRF, is one of the industry's biggest train wrecks yet. Can you guess which one I would do away with? :)

[GR1@HTR]

Re: Thorograph/DRF

I just recall during 9/11 there was some talk about DRF and Thorograph being possibly linked because both organizations had the same web servers or sum such. Maybe someone can refresh my memory.

[rrbauer]

takeout wrote:
If that's "DRF data" then they can keep it. I'm guessing that BRIS started TSN because there was no other way out of this mess. IMO the coexistence of these two companies, Equibase and DRF, is one of the industry's biggest train wrecks yet

Comments:
BRIS started TSN for much the same reason Proctor & Gamble sells more than one brand of soap.

The Equibase/DRF "coexistence" is not unlike the Racetrack/TVG "coexistence": One has the content and the other has the presentation and delivery system. The extent to which the customer will pay a premium for the "value-added" features determines the success of the presentation/delivery provider. However, TVG exists by virtue of a large subsidy from its parent company, and not due to any superior revenue-producing capability. As a result it's hard to assess its value-added from an economic perspective.

At the same time, even with racetracks printing Equibase pp's in specialized track programs, players still prefer the DRF pp's. Old habits are hard to break!

[takeout]

Originally posted by rrbauer

BRIS started TSN for much the same reason Proctor & Gamble sells more than one brand of soap.

That sounds plausible but I think there is probably much more to it than that. The timing of their startup and their written statement of "TSN proudly uses data supplied by Equibase company" at the bottom of their home page leads me to believe that at the very least they were hedging their bets because they didn't know which way the DRF versus Equibase cookie was going to crumble. As it turned out it didn't crumble at all but just kind of turned into the soggy mess that we have now. For the last ten years or so we've had a new data collecter, Equibase, that won't sell us traditional PPs and result charts, and the old data collecter, DRF, who is now no more than some kind of weird data middleman that is just mucking up the works.

Meanwhile, back at BRIS, across the hall, :) the written statement at the bottom of their home page reads, "Information as to races, race results and earnings was obtained from result charts, Copyright (C) 2002, Daily Racing Form, Inc., All Rights Reserved," and so on.

Hmmm... ??? BRIS is getting their info from DRF result charts and DRF doesn't employ chart callers. Neat trick. Obviously DRF is getting their charts from Equibase and then DRFing them.

BRIS started out selling breeding info so they probably couldn't survive without access to the old DRF database that goes back forever. I think that is why BRIS and DRF seem to be joined at the hip.

I don't know what DRF is doing. They are probably running the trainer names through some program of theirs like BillW said in a post a long time ago. All I know is that I've found out the hard way (several times now) that if I want the correct trainer names I have to get data that has not gone through DRF.

BillW,

When you run into these name differences with middle initials, Jr & Sr, different spellings and the like, how do you verify who's correct?

[BillW]

takeout,

The errors are usually fairly obvious with multiple sources to cross reference ( PP files, results charts, future past performance lines) If all my information is consistent, I just accept it as good enough and move on.

I should note that most of the errors are subtile in that they prevent exact computer matching. A "JR." and a "JR" would be seen as two unique individuals in a straight character for character compare on a computer.
That is the issue more than errors undetectable by a human (even me :) )

Bill

[takeout]

Originally posted by rrbauer

At the same time, even with racetracks printing Equibase pp's in specialized track programs, players still prefer the DRF pp's.

I do too. I'll take a DRF, wrong trainer names and all, over the track programs I've seen any day. It bugs me when the tracks cheap out and use bad paper, teensy print and less than 10 lines of PPs. It's not like they aren't charging good money for the things. The ones I've seen they should be giving away.

PS: They always seem to have a slick cover on them though. :rolleyes:

[takeout]

BillW,

Thanks.

I'm noodling around with a program that goes by trainer names and I started out with BRIS/DRF data and now it's driving me nuts because of all the different spellings for the same people. Instead of one trainer with a 12-horse stable, I'll have like two guys with an 8 and 4 horse stable and it's the same guy. I'll eventually get it fixed but what's tricky is that there are a lot of racing families with two or three trainers in them that have almost identical names. Many times it's only the middle initial or a Jr or Sr that separates them. Sometimes I'll see a trainer's name that is spelled the same way by both companies but the middle initial will be different. Odd.

[BillW]

Takeout,

I think the successful way of handling the near same family names (plus or minus a middle initial) is just don't sweat it. Hopefully those instances are less than 1 percent so the effect of that small ammout of bad information is neglegible and not worth losing sleep over. i.e. it's "good enough" :) . But if worse comes to worse, using multiple sources usually will help clear up the problem.


Good luck,

Bill

[takeout]

I think once I get switched over to a reseller that uses Equibase's trainer names, most all of these name problems will disappear. Equibase has been right on the ones that I've checked out so far and it appears that DRF is still using the same wrong names that its been using for 10 years. I have one instance of a woman trainer who divorced and went back to using her maiden name. Equibase has her maiden name and DRF still has her married name. That was about 6 years ago.

[Tom]

Originally posted by takeout

....... and it appears that DRF is still using the same wrong names that its been using for 10 years. I have one instance of a woman trainer who divorced and went back to using her maiden name. Equibase has her maiden name and DRF still has her married name. That was about 6 years ago.

DRF is steeped in tradition. Change comes slowly. The only thing the like to see chaged at DRF are the prices! :rolleyes: