NYRA Cash Rebate Program will begin at BEL May 3

[fouroneone]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=62938&subsec=1

[lsbets]

If I'm reading it right, you have to bet at least $2000 a month to get a rebate of 1%, and the takeout is also being increased 1%. If you bet 500 grand a month you get a whole 3% rebate.

What a joke. :bang:

[Indulto]

If I'm reading it right, you have to bet at least $2000 a month to get a rebate of 1%, and the takeout is also being increased 1%. If you bet 500 grand a month you get a whole 3% rebate.

What a joke. :bang:lsbets,
Everything is bigger in Texas. ;)

Didn't they also increase takeout by 1%?

[lsbets]

lsbets,
Everything is bigger in Texas. ;)

Didn't they also increase takeout by 1%?

Hey, at Lonestar Park now, you bet 2 grand you get a cup of coffee!

I can't play Texas tracks, so I don't really pay much attention to them anymore and have no idea whether or not they raised takeout.

[Indulto]

lsbets,

Sorry, I meant to ask whether the NYRA raised takeout 1% to fund the new rebate program. I understood that to be a condition prior to the vote, but didn't see that aspect reported afterwards.

[lsbets]

lsbets,

Sorry, I meant to ask whether the NYRA raised takeout 1% to fund the new rebate program. I understood that to be a condition prior to the vote, but didn't see that aspect reported afterwards.

It seems like they did - so they offer a 1% rebate, but raised takeout 1%, which by my math means no rebate, just word games.

[the little guy]

No, takeout was raised on WPS only, while the rebate was offered on ALL wagers. Plus, it escalates to over 1% the more you bet.

Nobody is saying it's an aggressive program, but it's a start, and it's effects are likely to be felt throughout the industry. The bottom line is that NYRA is the first major racing center to offer widespread rebates and it is now only a matter of time before everyone else follows suit.

[the little guy]

lsbets,

Sorry, I meant to ask whether the NYRA raised takeout 1% to fund the new rebate program. I understood that to be a condition prior to the vote, but didn't see that aspect reported afterwards.

They did not raise the WPS 1% to fund the program. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They were pressured by the State, by OTB of course, to raise the takeout. The only way they would agree to the higher take was to use it as a COMPROMISE in order to get the rebate program off the ground.

[lsbets]

What is the point of the program? Is it to bring people back from offshore or bring back some of the business lost when NYRA cut off the rebate shops? Or is it to offer a reward to the casual player?

If the goal is to bring back rebate players, why would anyone using Pinnacle offshore for 7% (I think Pinny has lowered their NYRA rebates, but its still a lot more than this program) go back? And I highly doubt that the folks who bet 500 grand a month would return to NYRA for 3% WPS when they get upwards of 10% at other tracks.

If they want to reward casual players, that's great - racing needs to learn to take care of the fans, but the casual player has to bet 2 grand a month to get the 1% rebate. I think there would be better ways to do it.

TLG - I don't follow handle that much, but do you know if they lost any handle when they cut off the rebate shops?

[the little guy]

I understand what your saying about big players and can't really offer an argument. I don't use Pinnacle, but from what I understand they cap single race winnings at $25K, and I'm also not certain they accept all wagers ( Pick-4s? ) so those factors need to be considered. Certainly the numbers aren't substantial to major rebate players, though across the board rebates on NYRA are VERY hard to get these days, and it remains to be seen if these big players can be lured back to NYRA at all.

Certainly part of the plan is to reward their loyal and regular players, and there are a number ( including myself ) who will draw a reasonable benefit from the plan. And, of course, one would have to believe that they hope to draw more people into betting through NYRA with this extra incentive. I agree that any seasoned rebate player will, however, not be excited by these numbers.

I think the most important overall part of this plan is that it will most likely have a major ripple effect throughout the industry. Many major racetracks will now feel great pressure to come up with similar plans. I think ultimately this will facilitate my dream which is that simulcast fees are dramatically increased by host tracks, which of course will lower any rebate simulcast outlets can offer, and then takeouts will be substantially lowered, resulting in a virtual shutting of the window for anybody to be able to afford to give rebates. This will result in an even playing field for all bettors, the fairest solution and of course the intent of the parimutual system, and ultimately this will substantially increase handle, and hopefully overall wagering on horse racing, and revitalize the sport.

Pipe dream? Maybe. But the best way I can see the sport moving ahead positively into the future.

[Indulto]

I think ultimately this will facilitate my dream which is that simulcast fees are dramatically increased by host tracks, which of course will lower any rebate simulcast outlets can offer, and then takeouts will be substantially lowered, resulting in a virtual shutting of the window for anybody to be able to afford to give rebates. This will result in an even playing field for all bettors, the fairest solution and of course the intent of the parimutual system, and ultimately this will substantially increase handle, and hopefully overall wagering on horse racing, and revitalize the sport.Amen.

[lsbets]

It would be great if it had a ripple effect that led to change across the industry. I don't have that much confidence in the indutry though. ;) I want to see the industry thrive, I love the sport and I love the animals. But as a whole the industry can't seem to figure out how to market itself to America in 2006.

I re-read my last post, and I wasn't clear on one thing. I was trying to make a distinction between the Pinnacle bettors and the 500 grand a month guys. I doubt very many of the guys who are betting 500 grand a month are using Pinnacle, I would think most of them are using the parimutual shops that the NYRA cut off.

[BetHorses!]

In order to get the 7% you have to bet $500,000 a month but into the 3 and 4 horse exotic pools only.

And every first of the month you start at 0. These people are idiots

[the little guy]

No doubt it is not easy to have faith in this industry. However, now that a major racing power has started a reasonable rebate program, the other powers may be forced to follow suit. The most amazing thing to me is that it has taken over a decade for the industry to even begin to deal with the rebate situation in a positive way.

[ezpace]

NYRA should of lowered the take out 1% wps and advertised the fact in racing publications . That would of done more for the player and their bottom line.

[aaron]

I agree the rebate program is a start in the right direction. It would have been nice if NYRA had restored its free admission to account holders who kept a $1000 balance in the account. I also think free parking and programs would have been a better perk for the medium to small bettor.
Bill Nader stated that there are currently no account holders who wager $500,000 per month nor is one expected to arrive on the scene soon. While the rebates are a positive step,it seems to me that NYRA still doesn't know who its customers are.
I do think this could have a positive effect for the bettor,because other betting facilities will probably respond and have better deals than NYRA currently offers.

[JPinMaryland]

I think the most important overall part of this plan is that it will most likely have a major ripple effect throughout the industry. Many major racetracks will now feel great pressure to come up with similar plans.

you mean like giving a 1% rebate and increasing takeout 1% at the same time? How is this helping anybody?

[shots]

I don't think this will workout for the bettors money wise. I really believe they are going to take in alot more money than they will payout. Alot more. Sounds good but at some point there will be so much money in the rebate fund that the track will be tempted to and probably and will use money from that fund. After all this is not really getting pass for the benefit of the bettors, 1% is quite a bit of money. Raising takeout is never good IMHO. Also, I don't know whats in the fine print, but thats the way I see it.

[samyn on the green]

I agree the rebate program is a start in the right direction. It would have been nice if NYRA had restored its free admission to account holders who kept a $1000 balance in the account. I also think free parking and programs would have been a better perk for the medium to small bettor.
Bill Nader stated that there are currently no account holders who wager $500,000 per month nor is one expected to arrive on the scene soon. While the rebates are a positive step,it seems to me that NYRA still doesn't know who its customers are.
I do think this could have a positive effect for the bettor,because other betting facilities will probably respond and have better deals than NYRA currently offers.NYSRWB forced NYRA to terminate the free admission perk under heavy pressure from Spitzer/OTB parasite. A major result of Spitzers multimillion dollar witchhunt uncovered that giving the NYRAONE patrons a free $2 admission is against NYS law.

Losing the $2 free admission was an annoyance, but what is scary about this is that Spitzer will be governer and the corruption will multiply.

[fmhealth]

I don't get it. How is giving a 1% rebate to most bettors & at the same time raising the T/O by 1% a good thing?

First of all, most NYRA bettors are out of state & thus have only the 1% T/O increase to contend with. Secondly & I believe more importantly this increased T/O initiative will undoubtedly be copied by other states. Thus once again adding to the already onerous burden that all of us 'cappers have to bear.

The basic tenets of marketing are all but ingnored by racing once again. To increase the use of your product you should LOWER the barriers NOT raise them. More T/O equals less handle. When did a "tax increase" ever help anyone except the "politicians".

After 43 years of this I'm become increasingly less able to handle the total & complete insensitivity to the very people who keep this industry alive. The BETTORS!! Perhaps that's why in 2005 I went to the track 129 times vs 164 times in '04. I doubt I'll cross the 100 mark this year. Sad, very sad.

[aaron]

The politicians will never do anything for race track patrons.The powers that be who control racing in NY will not fight for their customers. While the customer service people at NY tracks are great and will listen to you,the bottom line is that racing in NY is controlled by "the old boys club" and they are not concerned about their patrons.
These are the people who gave Kenny Noe the keys to the kingdom.Nothing else,need be said.

[the little guy]

The takeout increase is on the WPS only, and while any takeout increase is onerous, it was a compromise NYRA HAD to make in order to get the rebate plan off the ground. If the rebate plan was not approved they would not have raised the WPS takeout. As WPS is less than half the total handle it would be fairer to say takeout was increased 1/2%.

NYRA's step to introduce the rebate program will hopefully create a ripple effect throughout the industry. Personally, I think they should be applauded for being the first major racing center to start such an initiative. I find it shocking that it has taken over ten years since the advent of rebates for this step to be taken.

[aaron]

Little Guy-
I have to agree with you on that.Its a start lets see what happends.Maybe someone will be able to shake up the politicians

[BlueShoe]

Speaking of ontrack rebates,for California members that have been using the Golden State Rewards Network card,the program is ending April 30.When first introduced several years ago,this was a good program.You got credit for any bet you made,anywhere,including night harness and quarters.Rebates are in the form of merchandise,admisions,or cash vouchers.What it really is if you took the voucher,is a 1 1/2% rebate.Not long ago,the program was tightened up to only include thororbred races in California;now it is going away completely.If you have points,you have to the end of June to redeem them.This seems to be a good time to think seriously about Pinnacle.That 7 percent looks very enticing in spite of a few disadvantages.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by fmhealth:

After 43 years of this I'm become increasingly less able to handle the total & complete insensitivity to the very people who keep this industry alive. The BETTORS!! Perhaps that's why in 2005 I went to the track 129 times vs 164 times in '04. I doubt I'll cross the 100 mark this year. Sad, very sad.fmh,
Check out the "boycott" thread.

As one who also prefers to attend the track rather than play from home, there is no question in my mind that the non-professional bettor is at the bottom of the list of those considered important by track management, profit or not-for-profit.

One solution for disgruntled regulars is to at least reduce participation, if not stop playing altogether, so that the moment of truth arrives sooner than later. I wouldn’t think any action taken through the Triple Crown or after Saratoga starts would even be noticeable. Del Mar presents the same problem as Saratoga, and Hollywood Park management may not even care as it waits for the moment developers can start tearing it down

As picketing on private property is problematic, the fact that NYRA tracks are supposedly owned by the state -- as well as the imposers of a government-sponsored takeout increase -- makes Belmont-after-the-Belmont the place to focus one’s newly-acquired moderation. Since few people are willing to be confrontational, an indirect approach to displaying dissatisfaction might be more successful.

I propose that all like-minded players fund some appropriate advertising (DRF,PA,???) by purchasing bright green caps ($10 min. donation?) like those used for track promotions which would say, “Less Green for your tote machine -- LOWER THE TAKEOUT!” It would at least attract the curious for an explanation, presumably without violating any statutes.

The simulcast patrons and in-home supporters would wear their caps to remind themselves to speculate as judiciously, if not as sparingly, as possible when swimming in New York pools. And that’s the only thing these guys understand! This latest BS is in reaction to perceived losses to rebaters. Let’s show ‘em we’re master waiters! :D

[Ron]

Certainly part of the plan is to reward their loyal and regular players, and there are a number ( including myself ) who will draw a reasonable benefit from the plan.

So you're wagering a substantial amount of money physically at a NYRA track or by calling NYRA right now?

[the little guy]

So you're wagering a substantial amount of money physically at a NYRA track or by calling NYRA right now?

What's is your point?

[Ron]

What's is your point?

Unless I'm sitting in a box, I don't always place my bet with NYRA even if I'm at the track. Maybe I'm missing something?

[samyn on the green]

Horseplayers are always complaining about track management not caring about them or not doing anything for them. In New york do you think that NYRA has free rein to do as they plaese? No there are several layers of corruption to wade through before a proposal will be approved. In New York this customer service situation has little to do with NYRA and can be squarely blamed on the state govenment. Since govenment patronage hacks extract a large portion of their income from OTB, racing must be heavily regulated and NYRA must be handicapped against OTB to keep OTB above water. The OTB parasite/patronage-cartel has been lobbying hard for takeouit increase for years and only now has NYRA yielded to their persistant clamoring. Thanks to NYRA takeout in New york is the lowest in the contry for most pools. NYRA used the increased takeout as a compromise to get its rebate program rolling.

Remember now NYRA good- state govenment bad say it over and over now.

[The Hawk]

Personally, I think they should be applauded for being the first major racing center to start such an initiative. I find it shocking that it has taken over ten years since the advent of rebates for this step to be taken.

California already had a program, as noted in this thread. So does Illinois, I think.

[Tom]

Is the "ripple"effect that will start the one that will drive out little guys and keep new blood from coming in? Rasing the take, to me, is riculous. It has already been shown that handle increased when they lowered it. So much of NYRA looking out for their customers. Most of them, anyways. Just what percent of the players will this rebate benefit, anyway? 5? 10?

[GeTydOn]

Ain't it the state that wanted the takeout increase? Suppose NYRA chose to drop the rebate idea to keep takeout the same. Could the state have forced a takeout increase anyway? Seemed like the state had been digging hard for a way to increase takeout for quite a while and weren't OTBs politicing hard about how bad a reduced takeout was? In all the NYRA scandal stories over the past few years I seem to recall a trashing on NYRA's takeout reducsion.

[the_fat_man]

This is all very interesting.

NYRA comes up with a rebate plan and increases the takeout.

Of course, I would need to be a big bettor in order to get back a little bit of money.

So, I bet alot of money, into the bite of a huge takeout, for the privilege of
paying taxes on whatever I win (including my 2%, or whatever the trivial amount is).

Now, I probably need the rebate cause I can't win otherwise. (So why am I even in this discussion? Read on)

And even if I weren't lazy and didn't want to schelp my fat ass over to the track 5 days a week, thereby retaining anonymity, it wouldn't make a difference cause I couldn't show a profit without the rebates (referring to Pinn here, in general) and thus wouldn't save on the taxes ( yeah, I wouldn't report ---damn, don't I already pay enough by betting?).

So, the issue is as follows:

1) If I can win without a rebate then I head on over to PINN (in cyberland) and make even more money ---whether I report this or not is up to me---more money I make, more taxes I pay

Of course, this option allows me to keep my lazy ass home. It's worth the extra 30+% in taxes.

Of course, if I couldn't win without a rebate I'd still follow option 1; and make sure that everyone knew I was a winning horseplayer.

2) I can actually win at the game without resorting to rebates; get my lazy ass over to the track 5 days a week; make my money; and keep it --less takeout. This way I'd get to BEND OVER the same 'group' trying to BEND ME over.

Of course, this option would probably keep me real busy; so busy, that I probably wouldn't be online as much reading about 1% increases and rebates.

It could be worse, however:

I might actually feel the need to bet (couldn't keep away like I have for the past 20 years) and then have to deal with all the BS involved with horse racing.

It could EVEN be WORSE:

I could be a smoker, unable to give up the butts and find myself paying
through the nose for the pleasure of sucking on a weed.

What's my point, as I haven't proofread?

The only way to get service from the racing community is to threaten to close it down BY NOT BETTING for a while --easier said than done

the smoker is pursuing bootleg butts

the bettor is seeking 'legal' rebates

whatever gets one through the day

and we're here talking about it

and I'm just a lazy fat man with nothing else to do

sucks being me

of course, if I were still playing

I'd be up still watching tape at midnight

oh yeah

[Indulto]

Originally posted by samyn on the green:

Remember now NYRA good- state govenment bad say it over and over now.
It, it, … , it.

“She said she was sorry,
But I was a little bit late.
She was a waiting anda waiting anda waiting” in line,
For her state’s rebate.

Alternate banners for protest cap:

“Pataki Appointees/OTB – 1, Racing Fans – 0”

“Takeout is just another word for nothing left to lose”

“Takeout with Representation is Stupidity.”



OK, TT, the floor is yours.

[Rico8812]

I sure hope that everyone who is bitching about the takeout rise NEVER plays at a NY OTB. That would be very hypocritical.

[Indulto]

I sure hope that everyone who is bitching about the takeout rise NEVER plays at a NY OTB. That would be very hypocritical.R8,
Not when wearing a protest cap, but if the surcharge on winners is still in effect, a dunce cap would be more appropriate -- even for exotics-only players. ;)

[fmhealth]

Indulto, you offer-up a very viable option. My strategy is to simply buy less of their product. I will bet NYRA on a restricted basis from here on in. Much as would would with any vendor of goods or services that I felt was being unreasonable.

We, the "consumers" will ultimately win out if enough of us take action. Bet the tracks with the most reasonable overhead (T/O) & limit action where the "taxes" are too high. A simple plan that just might pay dividends.

Best of luck!

[cj]

We, the "consumers" will ultimately win out if enough of us take action. Bet the tracks with the most reasonable overhead (T/O) & limit action where the "taxes" are too high. A simple plan that just might pay dividends.

Best of luck!

The problem with that is NYRA still offers the best rates around.

[Indulto]

The problem with that is NYRA still offers the best rates around.cj,
Good point. And another difficulty presented to protesters is that the NYRA also offers the best racing product. However, as that also makes them more visible, so it would also make any player action (or inaction) more visible. Of course there still has to be some advertising so that the Pataki appointees get the message.

[lsbets]

I'm not so sure I agree on the best product. While NYRA racing is the most visible and has some of the biggest names, I would say the overall product is much better at tracks like Tampa and Evangaline (specifically Evangaline). Full, competitive fields for virtually every race. The big guys would do well to see how these small tracks do it right.

[Indulto]

I'm not so sure I agree on the best product. While NYRA racing is the most visible and has some of the biggest names, I would say the overall product is much better at tracks like Tampa and Evangaline (specifically Evangaline). Full, competitive fields for virtually every race. The big guys would do well to see how these small tracks do it right.lsbets,
Another good point, and I agree that even running G1 races doesn't guarantee overal quality, e.g., HOL, but the "cheaper" animals seem to 1) break down more frequently, b) perform more erraticly (or less consistently), and 3) require a greater dependency on "inside information" than their more expensive counterparts.

[rastajenk]

Without trying to veer too far off topic, can those assumptions above, 1, b, and 3 (you got a bias against 2's? :D ) be taken without question? Look at Breeders Cup history for a simple snapshot...full of breakdowns, disappointments, and longshot winners. I'd be surprised if there is a legitimate study out there correlating quality and reliability.

[Indulto]

Without trying to veer too far off topic, can those assumptions above, 1, b, and 3 (you got a bias against 2's? :D ) be taken without question? Look at Breeders Cup history for a simple snapshot...full of breakdowns, disappointments, and longshot winners. I'd be surprised if there is a legitimate study out there correlating quality and reliability.RJ,
That's what happens when I don't use MS-WORD first, but PA has been complaining about my fonts. ;)

I got my fill of breakdowns in NoCal before moving to SoCal. Yes, there are Ruffians, Go For Wands, and Charismatics in NY, but I've never seen horses at BEL or SAR with front bandages and non-fluid movement in the post parade winding up waiting for the horse ambulance with their hoof dangling.

And there's nothing wrong with longshots, especially in the BC where price is more a function of bettor bias and befuddlement than inconsistency or hidden form.

[rrbauer]

The problem with that is NYRA still offers the best rates around.

This is a "what have you done for me lately" game. And, what NYRA has done for horseplayers lately is zilch. They deserve credit for keeping takeout low on some bets and for making a modest effort to reform breakage. What else? Dwindling field sizes? Racing in the snow in January? Allowing money-losing operations to continue to suck down their finances until bailouts are necessary? And, now a 1% rebate in May after a 1% takeout increase in April. Tell me it's an April Fool's joke and not a friggin' joke on horseplayers....tell me.....tell me.

And they wonder why we're cynical!

[cj]

Here is a great quote from the Steve Crist article at DRF:

Racing is the only gambling industry that tries to fix its short-term business problems by changing the rules and odds of the game. Casino operators do not defray costs by decreeing that ties at the blackjack table will henceforth go to the house, or that you have to bet $11.10 rather than $11 to win $10 in the sports book. They understand that by taking money out of circulation that would otherwise be bet numerous times, their short-term gains would be outweighed by long-term business decreases and the high cost of increasingly unhappy customers.

[the little guy]

As we like to say about Steve...." in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is King ".