Bankroll required to turn pro?

[Hank]

I'd say about 20k as a minimum.What say yea?

[Bala]

Hank - I believe you are missing something.



Pros do not gamble. They take calculated risk. Risk management is what's important.

Start with whatever bankroll you can comfortably lose and only bet 2% of that bankroll per race. As you win you will bet more, if you loss you will bet less.

Whether your bankroll is $500 or $500k is immaterial. If you cannot manage risk with
small amounts - moving on to large amounts is financial suicide.

__________________________________________________ _____
If evolution is true then any monkey can pick the "06 derby

[yak merchant]

Your bankroll is completely material. By definition of pro I assume that means, "sole source of income". That means you have to pay bills out of the bankroll. Unlike the casual or part-time bettor, the bankroll size is also impacted by your monthly expenses. If you have a $500 bankroll, I don't think you'll have much to push through the windows after you eat and pay bills the first month unless you are a handicapping god. I consider any system that can provide a 100% return in a year to be pretty good. But with your $20,000 bankroll, if you started April 1st that works out to about a 6% return a month. If you didn't touch your bankroll for expenses, at the end of each month added your winnings to your bankroll, In one year you'd double your bankroll to $40,000. But the "professional" would need to eat, pay rent/mortgage etc. So just to maintain the bankroll at the $20,000, you'd have to live off of $1200 a month or 14,400 a year. Obviously the higher returns you can manufacture the lower the starting bankroll needed, but I would think you'd need 50k at a minimum.

[RaceIsClosed]

I'd say about 20k as a minimum.What say yea?

$20,000 will buy you about 10-20 months of living expenses (one thing a pro gambler MUST do is cut non-gambling expenses to the bone). For sake of argument, let's assume an overhead of $1,500 a month (or about 13 months). That $1,500 should be counted as a loss on the first day of each month.

Now ask yourself at which point you would throw in the towel. How long would it take you to find another line of work? Three months? If so, then $4,500 is your cushion, and $15,500 is your bankroll. Just to cover your living expenses, you'd have to add 10 percent a month to that bankroll, while to make progress, you'd have to win at a faster rate.

Now, if you want to be a pro in perpetuity, you could do it if you had $200,000 in the bank earning about 10 percent invested in that you could live on $1,500 a month and have another $500 a month for a bankroll. Ideally, you should have about a half-million socked away, not touch the principal, and use the remainder of the annual proceeds to gamble aggressively.

To me, no one is a "professional" until they have won enough to "endow" their horseplaying in the above fashion. You may take a professional "approach," but no one knows what the future may bring.

[MONEY]

The Question(s) should be how much knowledge, information and practice is required to turn pro. As an example, look at the vbookie contest. All players started with $3000 in vcash. There have been 8 races. Some players have gone broke, while other players have from 2x to 5x the money that they started with. I'm sure that the players on the top of the list have access to more info than the players on the bottom. Of course access to the info is only a small part. You also have to be able to decipher the info. That's where practice and eventually knowledge come in. I'm am not a pro and probably will never become one. But I know some people that make a good living betting on the horses. And the one thing I can tell you about gambling on horses professionally is that it's not work for a lazy person.

[DJofSD]

There's another aspect to making a go of it. That's the size of the bets.

Can you push $20 through the windows without breaking out in a sweat? How about $200, $500 or more?

[shanta]

There's another aspect to making a go of it. That's the size of the bets.

Can you push $20 through the windows without breaking out in a sweat? How about $200, $500 or more?

Excellent post DJ.

It's the wagering part NOT the capping part that seperates the men from the boys.

BTW I am still a "boy".

Richie :)

[alysheba88]

What do you mean "turn pro". What would "turning pro" mean to you? What would be different from the way you play now?

[GaryG]

If you have reached this point you must have a pretty good idea of what your ROI is likely to be, also the approximate number of plays you make in a month. You also surely know what sort of income you require (before taxes). For example, if you want to earn $5000 per month, you average 100 plays per month and your ROI is 20% you will need to put $25,000/mo thru the windows. This would be $250 per bet. I agree that 2% is a prudent bet size, so you would need about $12,500 to start. Of course, a bit more would be better. If you are married, she has to be a brave woman. Hope this helps.

[MONEY]

What do you mean "turn pro". What would "turning pro" mean to you? What would be different from the way you play now?

Right now I make $2. - $5. win bets. I can afford to lose a few of those per day. If I turned pro I would have to expect to pay my bills with my track income so I would have to make larger bets say $200 - $500. I can not afford to lose many of those per year. Having said that, turning pro is not only playing more money, knowing when to play is also very important.

[twindouble]

The Question(s) should be how much knowledge, information and practice is required to turn pro. As an example, look at the vbookie contest. All players started with $3000 in vcash. There have been 8 races. Some players have gone broke, while other players have from 2x to 5x the money that they started with. I'm sure that the players on the top of the list have access to more info than the players on the bottom. Of course access to the info is only a small part. You also have to be able to decipher the info. That's where practice and eventually knowledge come in. I'm am not a pro and probably will never become one. But I know some people that make a good living betting on the horses. And the one thing I can tell you about gambling on horses professionally is that it's not work for a lazy person.

Money; The v cash isn't a good example of the quality of players here, for the simple reason someone else is picking the races and the type of wager. I rarely wager on those type of races, norm just for fun, like I'm doing. I'll take the lower claiming ranks any day.

All else I agree with, ESP the work involved. Regardless of what level anyone plays a healthy Bankroll is very important and that can vary from player to player and of course the rebates help. I would suggest taking it slow, continue to work, if your good that bankroll will grow, then you can step up a notch or two as you go. When you feel secure in what your doing go for it!

T.D.

[alysheba88]

Right now I make $2. - $5. win bets. I can afford to lose a few of those per day. If I turned pro I would have to expect to pay my bills with my track income so I would have to make larger bets say $200 - $500. I can not afford to lose many of those per year. Having said that, turning pro is not only playing more money, knowing when to play is also very important.

I would not go from $2 to $500. There is just no way you or anyone else can handle that jump mentally. How would you feel if you lost 10-12 in a row $500 bets? If you had a negative month? A negative quarter?

What would change in regard to your handicapping? What would change with when to play?

My advice would be to do something like this very gradually. Work part time with a real job so your rent/mortgage doesnt depend on the track. Gradually escalate your bets (but only if you are making money now).

[Light]

I think before turning pro,one should turn semi-pro.Just like baseball. Keep your day job and have a seperate bankroll that you play with. How fast and how much your bankroll grows will tell you when you're ready for the big leagues. The amount needed to turn pro is clear for a successful student in a semi-pro apprenticeship.

[JackS]

Maybe the handicapper that turned Pro would be the guy handicapping for someone else. If you developed a reputation as a winning player, it might be possible to actually go to "work" for an independant high-roller who would rather be out on the links but can't resist passing on the horses.
A pro could also be the guy selling his selections for 5 bucks a card or the selector in the DRF or other publication.
Since all of these guys are presumebly making a living picking horse races, I'd have to consider them all Pros regardless of any pos/neg ROI they generate.

[toetoe]

We all are semi-professionals already. Understandable that few of us want to pull the trigger. I also agree that PA Downs is not a great example. Kudos to the leaders, but it's been hard for me to make bets on several of the races. On the other hand, if I didn't have SOMETHING urging me on, some 15-bets rule, I'd rarely bet, and I can't be successful betting one horse per week, even at $1,000 a pop. :)

[Light]

Toe

Well said about the V contest(or any other contest). No professional or semi- professional would have someone else pick the races he is to bet or the type of bets he is required to play.

[JackS]

I have no experience in contests but have concluded that they must be played different than real life day to day bets. Swing for the fences?

[alysheba88]

I have no experience in contests but have concluded that they must be played different than real life day to day bets. Swing for the fences?

Actually I find them remarkably similar in many ways. Look for mid range and up odds value horses and bet em

[alysheba88]

Not to belabor this but I would really caution about the use of "going pro". People need to understand what it is they actually mean by this term, what it means for their lifestyle, and how they will go about doing it.

If someone has a real job and plays the horses every day are they a pro? If so why or why not? If that same person loses his real job tomorrow is he now a pro? Does a pro's sole source of income have to come from horse betting? What will be different about your play if when you "turn pro".

[traynor]

The first question you need to answer is whether you are doing it for money, sport, recreation, or some other reason. If it is for money, the focus is totally different. Many of the niceties and distinctions that are acceptable in amateur or hobbyist play are inappropriate for professionals.

Case in point; I am loosely affiliated with a group of professional bettors. Members of that group ALL wager on greyhound races, because it is the most consistent, most predictable, and most reliable source of income for wagering professionals. I don't think any of us "likes" it, but it is bread-and-butter. Wagering on greyhounds enables other activities with much less stress.

Look in the mirror, and look closely at your response to that. If it is something on the order of "Oh NO! Not DOG races!" you might need to question whether you want to turn pro, or whether you simply want to indulge your hobby of betting recreationally on thorougbreds.

A similar situation exists with harness races. They provide stable, consistent, and relatively predictable income. Eliminated is all the camaraderie of debating the relative merits of one entry over another, trainer intent, and all the thousand and one details that fuel conversations between hobbyists. Just as with greyhound racing, harness racing provides bread-and-butter. There is little or no "decision making" beyond a boring, repetitious pattern of mechanical wagering on top selections generated by computer algorithms.

The advantages of greyhound racing and harness racing are that they provide the cushion that facilitates other types of wagering, including thoroughbreds. In investment, diversification is often the key to long-term survival. It is even more important in wagering professionally; the members of this forum who wager on hundreds of races a week, rather than a half dozen, are diversifying; spreading the risk over a broader base to minimize the chances of taking a serious hit with the occasional losing streak.

Conversely, hobbyists and recreational bettors tend to favor the social and sport aspects of racing; they "prefer" thoroughbreds for one reason or another, usually because they feel it is more "familiar." That familiarity can be deadly for a professional, because in many cases, the "knowledge" is a collection of errors and misconceptions that are obscured by recreational betting.

The question of how much it takes to turn pro is an easy one; about a hundred bucks. If you can't double that in fairly short order with two dollar bets, no amount of money is going to compensate for a lack of handicapping skill. If you can double your initial bankroll, you can keep increasing your wagers until you are routinely betting whatever your "choke point" happens to be. As interesting as "rebates" might seem on the surface, they should not form the basis for a decision to wager professionally--if you can't do well enough to earn a decent return without rebates, stay off the field.

You don't even need to make a bet. Track your proposed wagers on paper (always recording them BEFORE the race--no "I woulda had that one" allowed), and see how long it takes to double your paper bankroll. The 100% return in a year is seriously pessimistic, unless you intend to restrict wagers to a very small number. Percentages are based on amount wagered, not on the size of your bankroll. If you are working on 20% profit, it should take only as long to double your bankroll as it does to wager five times your bankroll. At 2% (of bankroll) per bet, that is only 250 bets.

If you are serious about turning professional, the best advice I can give you is to keep accurate records, and treat it like any other business activity--something you do first and foremost for profit, and only (distantly!) secondarily because it is an activity you like. Unfortunately, most people flop as pros because they reverse that order.

Lastly, find yourself a "cushion." We use mechanical betting on greyhound races and harness races as the "blue chip" portion of our "investment portfolios," enabling us to focus on the more interesting and (often) more profitable field of thoroughbred races. In retrospect, the thing that enabled me to become a professional wagering on thoroughbreds was my ability to make a consistent profit wagering on harness races. Five and six dollar winners are not very exciting, but they sure take the edge off the anxiety about paying the bills.
Good Luck

[skate]

big , bud, big.

[chickenhead]

Any profitable enterprise is a business, and should be looked at as such. And every business is unique, no two business plans are exactly alike, or require the same amount of start-up capital.

I doubt I will ever attempt to be a professional horseplayer,but if I did I would write out a business plan, just like any other business. I started playing the ponies roughly 3 years ago. I am a close to break even player, not yet profitable. That doesn't mean I couldn't become a "pro" tomorrow, it just means I would need to account for some R+D first.

I am conservative when it comes to plans, I don't like to be cash constrained.

My plan would require:

120K 2 years living expenses
15K travel allowance, to spend some face time with some of the players here
15K first two years data, sw, and custom programming
20K first two years test bank
40K bank after that point

this is off the cuff, but my start up costs would be roughly 210K. Sound like a lot? I'd like to ask any of the pros here (people making a profession of this) how much they have spent paying their dues (losing money in the beginning), and how many hours of study they spent reaching the point of profitability at a reasonable wage. I think my 210K probably stacks up quite nicely, it is hard to beat the efficiency of a full critical mass frontal assault to solve a problem, nearly always more efficient in terms of time and money than a nickle and dime part time approach spread over many years.

I would fully expect to recoup all that money, and of course I wouldn't need it all at once, but since I would have no other profession, I had better know where its coming from.

[Bala]

"....Your bankroll is completely material. By definition of pro I assume that means, "sole source of income". That means you have to pay bills out of the bankroll. Unlike the casual or part-time bettor, the bankroll size is also impacted by your monthly expenses. If you have a $500 bankroll, I don't think you'll have much to push through the windows after you eat and pay bills the first month unless you are a handicapping god..."

__________________________________________________ _

And what happens if you have a losing month or two or three? If you start with a small bankroll and increase from there you will develop the mental toughness of Tiger Woods.

To start with a relatively large bankroll with the horses, NCAA or commodities trading without a clear understanding of risk management is financial suicide.

Prove it to yourself that you have what it takes to win consistently with small
numbers first. Don't let your ego take hold of you.

Only a small number of gamblers a have the psychological constitution to deal with the incredible stress of day to day play. How do you know your one of them?

Patience is a virtue.

_______________________________________________
Outsource congress to France

[joeyspicks]

The first question you need to answer is whether you are doing it for money, sport, recreation, or some other reason. If it is for money, the focus is totally different. Many of the niceties and distinctions that are acceptable in amateur or hobbyist play are inappropriate for professionals.
.......................................
If you are serious about turning professional, the best advice I can give you is to keep accurate records, and treat it like any other business activity--something you do first and foremost for profit, and only (distantly!) secondarily because it is an activity you like. Unfortunately, most people flop as pros because they reverse that order.



this is the start,........ attitude and treat it like a real business!

:ThmbUp:

[Indulto]

Originally posted by Bala:

Only a small number of gamblers a have the psychological constitution to deal with the incredible stress of day to day play. How do you know your one of them?
Originally posted by traynor:

The advantages of greyhound racing and harness racing are that they provide the cushion that facilitates other types of wagering, including thoroughbreds. In investment, diversification is often the key to long-term survival. It is even more important in wagering professionally; the members of this forum who wager on hundreds of races a week, rather than a half dozen, are diversifying; spreading the risk over a broader base to minimize the chances of taking a serious hit with the occasional losing streak.traynor,
Do you experience “incredible stress” in your day to day play?

If greyhound and harness racing are so predictable, what keeps these “games” going?

The idea of diversification makes sense, and possibly more practical in today’s computer-assisted simulcasting environment.
Originally posted by chickenhead:

I'd like to ask any of the pros here (people making a profession of this) how much they have spent paying their dues (losing money in the beginning), and how many hours of study they spent reaching the point of profitability at a reasonable wage.chickenhead,
I’m not a professional, just a preoccupied retiree trying to get back into the flow of a game which has changed dramatically in the forty plus years I’ve been following it.

My greatest successes occurred when exotics were limited to DDs and EXs, nine races at the local track were the only opportunities, the racing season was not year-round and didn’t include Sundays, and I had no parental responsibilities.

Attending every Saturday from Mar-Nov with holidays and occasional mental-health days added to the mix, I played every race on 40-50 cards a year. My strategy was to always bet my top selection based on an extremely enjoyable prior night’s analysis of M-T/DRF PPs, and allocating $24 for a DD wheel, $22 for 2-3 EX wheels, and 5 $10 WIN bets. While my actual bets varied from card to card, the $140 daily limit did not.

I would start each year with a budget of $700 for wagers and $300 for expenses, and was always prepared to quit for the year should the balance of that $1000 go to zero.

I was fortunate enough to always be able to wave goodbye to the snowbirds (snowhorses?) headed for Florida and, every so often, experience the amazing high of a good (but not life changing) score. I fantasized about playing horses for a living until the reality of marriage and then fatherhood set in, suspending my concentration and minimizing participation for some 20 years. I now feel totally out of synch chasing TRIs, P3s, and P4s because of comparatively tiny WIN, DD, and EX payoffs.

IMO, confidence is the key to success and experiencing winning creates confidence. You can’t just think you can win, you have to KNOW it. Some here have used the term “lazy.” I’m not sure that winning is a function of character as much as enthusiasm. Once you are winning, it is easier to maintain self-discipline and you look forward to your information collection, preparation, participation, and record keeping. I’d say some beginners luck is needed to get the ball rolling.

I agree that you need to view your profits with respect to the time you expend to achieve them. Unless the process itself is life-fulfilling, a bettor should do better than minimum wage.

[dav4463]

$2 and a dream!

[MONEY]

Why I could never be a professional with any kind of bank roll. I like action so I have to play many races (20 to 40) a day. I pick one key horse per race and play that horse $2 to win, then I play 3 -$2. exactas and 2 - $1 triples with my key horse on top. Here are how last two months have gone. Without going into too much detail.
For the month of Feb. My top pick winning percentage was a very low 15%. But it seemed that every time one of my picks won, I would hit the exacta. I also hit a couple of signer (10%er) triples. So while I was down $200 on win bets for the month I ended up with a more than $2000 profit for Feb.
Then came March. My win bet percentage for this month is at 33% so far. Thanks to a few big winners I'm up $1500 in win bets. But I have hit very few exactas or triples. So all together I'm down around $1000 for the month with 3 days to go. I made my selections and played the same way for two consecutive months with completely opposite results.
The only thing that I can figure to explain the above is that I don't know what I'm doing.:confused:

[chickenhead]

I think the biggest thing that keeps someone from becoming a professional is doing it. If you want to become a professional, become a professional. Decide that is what you want, and do it. I think that is the biggest thing that keeps anyone from doing anything entreprenurial, the nuts to commit themselves.

You WILL find out if you are going to be successful or not, don't worry about that. But I get the feeling that most people think they will just one day find themselves as a professional, it will just happen. They want to have the product before they start the company to make the product. Business is speculative, there is risk involved. Cisco didn't have their routers designed when they started the company, they started the company with an idea of what they wanted to do, and then they tried their best to do it. You have to develop your product, and that costs time and money. But there is nothing to focus and motivate a person like fear of utter and complete failure.

I get the feeling most people are dead set on having the goods before they start, as if there is some magical guarantee of success. Success is never assured, all companies are a few minutes away from failure, it is a continuous process and not some end destination that you will get to someday. If you want to become a pro, become one. Will you be successful? That all depends on YOU, but you will never know unless you try. There is no substitute.

[bettheoverlay]

The races during the week are loaded with short fields and short prices. I think just playing Saturdays and Sundays offer enough opportunities to make significant cash, and to see if one has the gumption to ever be a "pro". And you still keep the weekday job, know the bills will be paid win or lose, and get the reason we all need to work- BENEFITS. A less demanding job may be a good idea.

And there is usually a track or two running at night, and the late races from So Cal. if you need more action.

I strongly advocate starting with as big a bankroll as you can afford. Betting, especially exotics, is much less stressful, and you are more likely to bet aggressively, which for me is the key to winning.

[GaryG]

If you think you can do it you owe it to yourself to try it. Don't grow old saying "I coulda been somebody....". That's what I did after several years in the electronics business and, after a few rough spots, it worked out for us. The hardest part for me was to get used to betting larger sums than when I was a weekend player. You get into a groove and after a couple years of winning you gain a quiet confidence. I have never made 6 figures as and probaly never will. And the hours are incredibly long. But I'm glad I did it in 1983.

[yak merchant]

__________________________________________________ _

And what happens if you have a losing month or two or three? If you start with a small bankroll and increase from there you will develop the mental toughness of Tiger Woods.

To start with a relatively large bankroll with the horses, NCAA or commodities trading without a clear understanding of risk management is financial suicide.

Prove it to yourself that you have what it takes to win consistently with small
numbers first. Don't let your ego take hold of you.

Only a small number of gamblers a have the psychological constitution to deal with the incredible stress of day to day play. How do you know your one of them?

Patience is a virtue.

_______________________________________________
Outsource congress to France

Ummm, the "point" is that you can't build a bankroll from a small bankroll if you don't have another source of income, because the small bankroll will be gone, as soon as you pay the first months bills. If I start with $500 dollars and build it up that is fantastic, if I have a job to pay my mortgage and other expenses. But what happens if I have a $500 dollar bankroll and build it to $778 at the end of the month and my first mortgage bill comes and it's $777.99. What am I going to bet with the next day?

[Light]

We all are semi-professionals already.

Bullshit. If you play baseball are you semi pro? Why would making bets at the track make you a semi-pro gambler?Don't kid yourself.Most of us are liesurely players and cannot compete in the big leagues of Baseball or horse betting.

If you want to be a doctor or lawyer making big bucks,do you just do it on a whim? No, because there is an outside requirement that you know you can't meet. It takes maybe 10 years of education to get going and get the money coming in.

You could have 25 years experience at the track and have learned allmost nothing.Why? Because you refuse to look at your mistakes.Just repeat them over and over. That kind of player can never become professional.

Becoming a horseplaying pro requires a serious no nonsense honest approach or you will implode. It is a job,like any other job that requires alot of your time. Thinking you can do it and actually doing it are two different worlds.

That's why I said to go semi-pro first. Keep your day job.But take your experiment seriously and see if you are cut out for it. And keep in mind our ego's are not concerned with the consequences of failure.

[Bala]

Ummm, the "point" is that you can't build a bankroll from a small bankroll if you don't have another source of income, because the small bankroll will be gone, as soon as you pay the first months bills. If I start with $500 dollars and build it up that is fantastic, if I have a job to pay my mortgage and other expenses. But what happens if I have a $500 dollar bankroll and build it to $778 at the end of the month and my first mortgage bill comes and it's $777.99. What am I going to bet with the next day?

__________________________________________________ ______________

Bold assumption. Why presume you will definitely make profits? Do you have a historical basis that you will make a profits month over month? If you can answer yes to the above.....

The very fact Hank started this thread with a basic economic question implies that he is not ready for the pro ranks.

If you can answer in the affirmative to my above question then {Hank's} 20k is irrelevant. For 20k is pocket change - one weeks worth of play.

Start small and immerse yourself in the game. Prove to yourself you have what it takes to win consistently. If you don't you may find yourself joining the "protesters" in France.

__________________________________________________ ______
If evolution is true than any monkey can pick the '06 derby.

[kingfin66]

This is has been one of the more interesting discussions I have seen on PA. Good topic, good discussion, interesting ideas...

[traynor]

Light wrote: <Becoming a horseplaying pro requires a serious no nonsense honest approach or you will implode. It is a job,like any other job that requires alot of your time. Thinking you can do it and actually doing it are two different worlds.>

That is really great advice. Never underestimate the lengths the human mind will go to play tricks on itself, to protect the comfortable illusion of competence. There is an easy read that is an eye-opener for those who believe that "turning professional" is right around the corner:
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf

It is NOT boring, academic, psycho-babble, although it was written by academics. The topic is self-delusion, and everyone considering professional-level wagering should study it thoroughly.
Good Luck

[yak merchant]

My bold assumption seems to be reading comprehension.

[toetoe]

Traynor,

My problem is UNDER-estimating my abilities. By the way, how can you test for humor? Anyway, my failure at racing is due to just wanting to have fun and kill time. I think this is the root of the problem losers have with betting too many races.

[2000_ls1]

The Question(s) should be how much knowledge, information and practice is required to turn pro. As an example, look at the vbookie contest. All players started with $3000 in vcash. There have been 8 races. Some players have gone broke, while other players have from 2x to 5x the money that they started with. I'm sure that the players on the top of the list have access to more info than the players on the bottom. Of course access to the info is only a small part. You also have to be able to decipher the info. That's where practice and eventually knowledge come in. I'm am not a pro and probably will never become one. But I know some people that make a good living betting on the horses. And the one thing I can tell you about gambling on horses professionally is that it's not work for a lazy person.

I'm not saying I have done great but as far as the v-cash is concerned, I am up around 10%, I do not have any access to any PP's or anything else you would have to pay for. Up until this last contest race, I was in the top 15 too. I would say more information helps, but you do have to pay for it, at least I haven't found a site that offers it for free yet, except Brisbet.com and that's only if you wager with them. Not trying to get off subject, just pointing this out.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by GaryG(1):

If you are married, she has to be a brave woman. Hope this helps.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s always better to be lucky than good! :D

Originally posted by GaryG(2):

You get into a groove and after a couple years of winning you gain a quiet confidence.So those hippies never hear you coming?:lol:


Just funning, GG, you really ARE to be envied.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by MONEY:

I made my selections and played the same way for two consecutive months with completely opposite results.
The only thing that I can figure to explain the above is that I don't know what I'm doing.:confused: MONEY,
Welcome to the club. In the old days I could afford to wheel, so when my top selections were good, they usually enhanced my results. Today, my relationship with the ALL button is no longer intimate. I’m lucky to find P3 and P4 sequences or TRI races with two value selections that warrant trying to leverage knowledge with luck. Playing exotics with specificity can be frustrating.

BTW Which tracks do you play?

[JackS]

Hippie joke- Hippie standing at a bus stop and is approached by a little old lady L'il ole Lady to hippie "Do cross town busses run all night? Hippie reply- "Doo Daa, Doo Daa, Oh doo daa day"

[twindouble]

I don't know guys, I've seen so many come and go in this game that alone assisted me just by having the insight on different personalities that obviously effected how they played and as said ego's played a big part in their demise. Most were wannabe big shots that were more concerned about rising above their friends and public that surrounded them. Some would go to extreme to camouflage their condition. Just one example, here's a guy who was passing himself off as a pro, gambling on the horses for a living. Dressed neat, clean, walked around with air about him like he was confident, in control and drove a late model Buick. Truth be known, he lived at home with his mom, it was her car and she bankrolled him when he went dry. Never saw him with a girl because money spent on them was needed to wager. When he got found out, he would just pick up with new people and continue on. Sick and sad to boot.

Anyway, regardless of how deep you are into the game one can be professional in what he does.


T.D.

[MONEY]

BTW Which tracks do you play?

It's easier posting the tracks that I don't play.:D
Albuquerque, Golden Gate, Hawthorne, Mountaineer, Penn National, Sam Houston, Sunland & Turfway. My favorite tracks are Tampa & Charles Town.

[JohnGalt1]

Besides having a history of profitable wagers and being able to make large enough wagers to make enough profit to live on, you must have the discipline to pass every race where you are not certain you will win. A pro invests his money.

Of course the lock of the century may and will lose sometimes, but you must have a lead butt and stay in your seat, maybe for a whole card.

There will be no more "taking a shot" races.

[RaceIsClosed]

If you have reached this point you must have a pretty good idea of what your ROI is likely to be, also the approximate number of plays you make in a month. You also surely know what sort of income you require (before taxes). For example, if you want to earn $5000 per month, you average 100 plays per month and your ROI is 20% you will need to put $25,000/mo thru the windows. This would be $250 per bet. I agree that 2% is a prudent bet size, so you would need about $12,500 to start. Of course, a bit more would be better. If you are married, she has to be a brave woman. Hope this helps.

You forget that in your scenario, you also need the future results to be accurately predicted by past results, which is the ultimate flaw of all money-management strategies and regression analysis.

Every pro gambler I know is just predatory, always looking for the edge, and always looking to hammer it once he thinks he's found it. Very few of them ever really keep records, except the computer guys, but they do it to alter their algorithms.

[RaceIsClosed]

I think before turning pro,one should turn semi-pro.Just like baseball. Keep your day job and have a seperate bankroll that you play with. How fast and how much your bankroll grows will tell you when you're ready for the big leagues. The amount needed to turn pro is clear for a successful student in a semi-pro apprenticeship.

I find "separating" your money into piles is just mental auto-gratification because when push comes to shove, the walls go down, and money moves from one category to another.

If you have $20,000, keep $5,000 in the bank in case you go broke, keep another $5,000 for whatever, another few thousand for this and that, and bet with the rest. If you win, you'll replenish your money, and if not, well, you aren't a pro to begin with.

Whatever you do, don't give up other income just so you can win it back at the track and call yourself a "pro."

[RaceIsClosed]

Any profitable enterprise is a business, and should be looked at as such. And every business is unique, no two business plans are exactly alike, or require the same amount of start-up capital.

I doubt I will ever attempt to be a professional horseplayer,but if I did I would write out a business plan, just like any other business. I started playing the ponies roughly 3 years ago. I am a close to break even player, not yet profitable. That doesn't mean I couldn't become a "pro" tomorrow, it just means I would need to account for some R+D first.

I am conservative when it comes to plans, I don't like to be cash constrained.

My plan would require:

120K 2 years living expenses
15K travel allowance, to spend some face time with some of the players here
15K first two years data, sw, and custom programming
20K first two years test bank
40K bank after that point

this is off the cuff, but my start up costs would be roughly 210K. Sound like a lot? I'd like to ask any of the pros here (people making a profession of this) how much they have spent paying their dues (losing money in the beginning), and how many hours of study they spent reaching the point of profitability at a reasonable wage. I think my 210K probably stacks up quite nicely, it is hard to beat the efficiency of a full critical mass frontal assault to solve a problem, nearly always more efficient in terms of time and money than a nickle and dime part time approach spread over many years.

I would fully expect to recoup all that money, and of course I wouldn't need it all at once, but since I would have no other profession, I had better know where its coming from.

I'm not a "pro" in the traditional sense of the word, but I agree with the guy who said all you really need is $100. Of course, you don't want to HAVE to do that, but he's got the right idea, as your money will follow your advantage and it doesn't really matter what you start with.

What I don't get is why the guy would bother playing thoroughbreds if he has such a "mechanical" income from greyhounds and harness races.

[chickenhead]

I'm not a "pro" in the traditional sense of the word, but I agree with the guy who said all you really need is $100. Of course, you don't want to HAVE to do that, but he's got the right idea, as your money will follow your advantage and it doesn't really matter what you start with.


I would possibly agree if the question was "How much of a bank does it take to be profitable".....but to be a "pro" you have to be paying the bills, and you aren't going to be paying any bills with a $100 bank. Pretty simple.