Small Trainers

[CryingForTheHorses]

Just wondering what you guys think!
At the end of Calder I didnt get winter stabling at Calder because It was my first year of my horse's running under me instead of another trainer.I applyed at GP and was at first told I was on hold!..I went to see the RS shook his hand and he told me I was on the list!..Thats fine, What he didnt know was I had driven around and counted 50 empty stalls..I had 4 stalls during the Calder meet starting in Aug and had 50 starts..I am a RS's dream as I love to run. What does puzzle me is I know of 5 other trainers that they told the same thing..This guy cant fill the races!! AND he is pushing out the small trainer and force the to either sell or go broke,I have money to claim and I would support his meet.I also went to his office one day knocked on his door to ask him IF a race was going to go...He couldnt even turn around in his chair..That to me means the small guy gets NO respect and this guy could care less..I had a filly I claimed for 8k,I had her a month waiting to run, THEN I had to run in the wrong spots,as I had entered her 5 times before and the races didnt go. Its no wonder Tampa is "Showcasing" GP.The Racing office "select few" have some wonderful people, Its the guys who are out for the money or whatever they can squeeze out of someone for the stalls.They need to revamp the way the office conducts business..1 They need someone that just doesnt sit in his chair, They need to know what they have on the grounds and they need to "hound" the guys that have stalls,They need someone who walks around gettiing to know the trainers and getting to know when they are going to run.This is the "Premier" meet!! Hundreds of people are turned away every year.!!.Im not bitching about small fields as I as a horseman love them. BUT to increase the fields they need to let the little guy in. Geeze they wont give me stalls BUT THEY call me when they need a horse..Funny How there is a doube-standard.

[Dr. Carter]

Tom,
You are correct in most of your assessments. However you are in error about Gulfstream being an "premier" meet. It is basically Pletcher Downs in the feature race daily and on weekends and garbage racing the rest of the week. The reason that you dont get stalls is that you dont have any horses that would run in races that Pletcher needs you to fill for him like maidens and entry level allowances. Gulfstream has plenty of claimers, what they need is more guys willing to be target pratice for Todd.

[kenwoodallpromos]

FYI- In addition to GGF racing, there are current workouts at Pleasanton and Bay Meadows, wirhin 30 miles-so stalls is not a problem.
The big majority of small trainers here in N Ca. are Tom Schells without the wins- just going through the motions and not competitive.
Are those 50 waiting for the OP or other meets to end and the big trainers come there?
More and more think concetrated big money is advantageous (and easier to handle) for the racing office if the big trainer runs things like an assembly line, and keep their owners at a safer distance! It is most likely easier to treat claiming races and racers as commodities than "protected" horses.
What does the racing secretary think when he sees the local plumbing store owner and 9 relatives pile into the winner's circle after a 6k race?
If it is not a graded stakes maybe the it is the Asst trainer and a guy in a straw cowboy hat in there instead of Baffert and a millionaire celeb or business owner with a $1,000,000+ hobby horse!
You know the backside from both small trainer And Asst to the big shot viewpoints!!

[kingfin66]

I appreciate reading your posts as I like to learn how racing works behind the scenes. There is much myself and others don't know. For example, I don't know if there are rules in place regarding the allocation of stalls, or whether you and other small trainers are being randomly screwed. Could you tell a little bit more about how stalls are allocated?

* Is there a lottery?

* Are stalls first come/first serve?

* Is there bidding on stalls?

* Does stall priority go the barns that buy/rent the most?

* Is seniority a factor?

* Do stalls go the person who greases the RS palms the most?

* Do stalls carry over from one meet to the next?

* In the case of the 50 vacant stalls, do the horsemen who reserved them pay rent to hold them, or are they really just empty?

I agree with you that it is probably very difficult as it is to make a living in this game without having to deal with not being able to have a place to house your horses. It would, however, help to know a little bit more about the allocation process.

[Buddha]

FYI- In addition to GGF racing, there are current workouts at Pleasanton and Bay Meadows, wirhin 30 miles-so stalls is not a problem.


Tom is in Florida, what is California racing have to do with it?

[point given]

I know of one claiming trainer at Gulfstream who brought some horses down and then planned to claim some as well, so he was allocated extra stalls to put his claimed horses. Maybe that is why you saw some empty stalls. I know nothing about stall allocation though. I thought with Palm Meadows, Gulfstream, Calder and Payson, that there would be plenty of stalls ? No ? :confused:

[46zilzal]

these are trainers under 5 feet tall?

[karlskorner]

It's whats known as " paying your dues ". Look at the list of trainers at GP for today, or yesterday or any given day for any track. 75 percent have been in the business for the past 10/20/30 years, very few are newly licensed. These are the "core" that the RS is is depending on. Five years from today you will receive the "respect" you think your are entitled to today. If you hang in there for 5 or more years you will have " paid your dues "

[Doc]

Today's card at Gulfstream features four horses trained by Pletcher...the reason bigger guys get the stalls is that they help fill out the card. A smaller outfit may run only one or two horses PER WEEK...Pletcher is filling multiple races every single day. Not to knock the smaller outfits but they just don't have the firepower of a Pletcher, Lake or Zito.

[karlskorner]

The 4 trainers you mentioned and 100's more all had the same problems Tom has, when they started out. I would rather " cap " a 6 horse field where all meet the conditons of the race rather than a 12 horse field where 9 of the 12 don't belong in the race.

[Doc]

But from the racetrack's point of view a bigger field means a more attractive simulcasting product, which translates into more money bet.

[toetoe]

Well, if it's such garbage already, and I agree it is, why not just card stilll more garbaginous races, as those should fill with unknowns? The fans care not a whit. They just want full fields.
TMac has something to take to the racing board, no? I wonder whether a trainer gets exemption from scrutiny if he's able to fill half the races singlehandedly? That's an angle to the milkshake thing I never considered.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I thought at one time Tom was considering doing some Ca racing, so I was making comparison since Tom was granted some stalls off the track.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I appreciate reading your posts as I like to learn how racing works behind the scenes. There is much myself and others don't know. For example, I don't know if there are rules in place regarding the allocation of stalls, or whether you and other small trainers are being randomly screwed. Could you tell a little bit more about how stalls are allocated?

* Is there a lottery?

* Are stalls first come/first serve?

* Is there bidding on stalls?

* Does stall priority go the barns that buy/rent the most?

* Is seniority a factor?

* Do stalls go the person who greases the RS palms the most?

* Do stalls carry over from one meet to the next?

* In the case of the 50 vacant stalls, do the horsemen who reserved them pay rent to hold them, or are they really just empty?

I agree with you that it is probably very difficult as it is to make a living in this game without having to deal with not being able to have a place to house your horses. It would, however, help to know a little bit more about the allocation process.


The stall allotment process goes like this, GP stall apps are due the 15th of Oct,During that time Calder is still running,You put what horses you have on the app along with his/her starts on that list.They then "handpick" who they want, Yes they do give preference to the large outfits as they do run more, BUT the saying goes IF he doesnt write the races OR the races dont go, Due to lack of horses fitting his condition book. They also look at how many starts for the year a trainer has.I had 4-6 horses all year with 4 stalls and did run 50 times from April to Dec.
I do understand what you mean by paying dues Karl, I have paid mine as Ive had my trainers licence since 1982 in Canada. McSchell_Racing has had horses running at Calder since 2000. I wasnt the trainer then BUT I did do all my own training as everybody knows at Calder, This also was a way to get my foot in the door.Yes it was my first year training horses in South Florida but I am not a newcomer by any means as Ive been in the game over 30 years. The problem is the little guys really doesnt have a shot to make it big as he never gets the chance to be able to prove himself with a string of horses. Small guys like me have to prove themselves each and every time they run.Do palms get greased...Thats a very interesting question, While rumors are ramport,I wouldnt know.A RS's job is to know what horses he has on the ground, He should then "Handpick" the trainers with the horses to fit his book. Also they need to really crackdown on guys using the barn area for a training center..The racing office is too worried about pissing horseman off about bagering them to run horses.Bob Umphreys ws the best at that...I know for a fact he himself called trasiners to run their horses, He would tell them either run or get off the grounds.Ys the little guys gets thrown to the wolves BUT he is there when the wolf comes to the door.Im not looking for respect Karl, All Im looking for is a fair shot to make a living as I do support the game.

[kingfin66]

Thanks for the insight into the allotment process. It does indeed sound like an uphill battle. I can see where they need to take care of the big guys, but racing just doesn't work without the smaller operations too. How can racing expect to draw new owners and trainers in if they don't think they will have a chance to make it? Have you considered moving out of South Florida, or would you be confronted with this problem anywhere you go?

Somewhat off topic, but I am also curious. How do the big trainers get to be so big. Obviously, they have to have owners willing to give them horses, but how is this done? Is it being in the right place at the right time? Or, is it just a gradual building up over time? It seems to me that the Pletchers and Asmussens of the world are more or less executives and logistics experts than they are trainers. Not that they aren't knowledgeable horsemen too, but it seems like they can't have time to actually be hands on trainers except with their prize stock. For example, Asmussen started over 2200 horses in 2005. I can only imagine how many tracks he ran at.

[bobbyb]

Tom

I can appreciate how you would prefer to having stalls on site. My question to you is: Why are these RS's not using the same model as their Harness counterparts?

Condition sheets are sent out to Std Trainers (OFF SITE) well in advance; they enter their stock, and a draw (lottery style) is conducted by the RS to fill the entry sheet. Eventually they get in, considering the cards contain races each week for most (planned well in advance by the RS) levels.
In a 7 day period March 17th thru the 24th, GP ran 22 races for Claimers UNDER 20,000. The majority of these fields were small, 5,6,7 horses - and your having trouble getting in??? (Not taking it out on you Tom - my beef is with the moron RS who puts together fields like that and excludes people like you, cause your not based there(?).) Where is the level playing field?
Ol' Frankie gauranteed FULL fields after spending millions on his new racing surface (minus the timer) - me thinks he was looking in a FULL toilet when he came up with that one.

Yes, I agree it may not work with younger stock ie. 2yr olds (shipping in) but older hard core warriors - 6 - 8 - 10M - 20M claimers at GP......come on - who are they trying to kid??? Hawthorne, Beulah, WO, FE etc. - have many ship ins that make up their cards. So the problem is.............?
Sounds to me like the old boy network is alive and well in Florida! And as far as "serving your dues" what a load of crap that is Tom. The dues are green with pictures on them.....lol

a p*ssed off bobbyb :mad:

[karlskorner]

It's a " Catch 22 " situation. You win races when you have good horses. You are offered good horses, when you win races. Catch 22. I didn't make the rules, but thats they way they are.

[Tom]

Have you kissed Frankie's bottom yet? :rolleyes:

[jotb]

Just wondering what you guys think!
At the end of Calder I didnt get winter stabling at Calder because It was my first year of my horse's running under me instead of another trainer.I applyed at GP and was at first told I was on hold!..I went to see the RS shook his hand and he told me I was on the list!..Thats fine, What he didnt know was I had driven around and counted 50 empty stalls..I had 4 stalls during the Calder meet starting in Aug and had 50 starts..I am a RS's dream as I love to run. What does puzzle me is I know of 5 other trainers that they told the same thing..This guy cant fill the races!! AND he is pushing out the small trainer and force the to either sell or go broke,I have money to claim and I would support his meet.I also went to his office one day knocked on his door to ask him IF a race was going to go...He couldnt even turn around in his chair..That to me means the small guy gets NO respect and this guy could care less..I had a filly I claimed for 8k,I had her a month waiting to run, THEN I had to run in the wrong spots,as I had entered her 5 times before and the races didnt go. Its no wonder Tampa is "Showcasing" GP.The Racing office "select few" have some wonderful people, Its the guys who are out for the money or whatever they can squeeze out of someone for the stalls.They need to revamp the way the office conducts business..1 They need someone that just doesnt sit in his chair, They need to know what they have on the grounds and they need to "hound" the guys that have stalls,They need someone who walks around gettiing to know the trainers and getting to know when they are going to run.This is the "Premier" meet!! Hundreds of people are turned away every year.!!.Im not bitching about small fields as I as a horseman love them. BUT to increase the fields they need to let the little guy in. Geeze they wont give me stalls BUT THEY call me when they need a horse..Funny How there is a doube-standard.


Hello McSchell,


I'm sure if you pad the pockets of the RS stalls will be alotted to you. Make sure the next time the office calls you to help fill a race, you make them whistle dixie. That filly you claimed for 8k, I was wondering if you had put in a request in to write a race as an extra. I usually get these guys to write a race for me when I need one at CT but sometimes it does not matter because they fail to get to the extra's anyway.

Joe

[shanta]

Today at GP the 3 non maiden dirt races carded are all 6 horse fields.

real good work there Mr. RS

Richie

[the Bid]

By now, alot of the maiden races are light as horses have "won out" of the condition and no one is shipping TO Fla. They may be carding too many.

The problem the little guys have is that even though they may have horses ready and able to compete, a meet like GP is not really interested in carding more claimers. They have an overabundance of moderate claimers and the place all winter has looked like "Calder at Gulfstream." Of course without those races they'd be carded 6 races a day and still with short fields.

Sadly, even a high "starts per stall" ratio may not get the RS's attention. In fact many of the big names have the lowest starts per stall figs in the game.

[toetoe]

Check out Wednesday's Pick-Four:

$25,000 claimers,
Maiden claimers (on turf, YAWN),
3-y-o fillies, claiming (yecch),
Maiden claimers (on turf, ho hum).

Total combinations? 6,468 beforem scratches.

Aqueduct Inner is very rarely this bad.

[twindouble]

Over the years I never got into what goes on to any great degree when it comes to owning, training or what goes on in that world, mainly because I felt that would effect my handicapping. Like most players we get the idea we would like to own horses but that would pass. After reading this thread, I think I was right to stay away from it but it was tempting.


My biggest complaint is horses that continue to run in the same conditions with no wins and not being forced to drop down. Now how that would effect filling a card and the claiming game, I don't know. Young horses that are still maturing I would think have to be given more leeway. Any thoughts?


Thanks,

T.D.

[kenwoodallpromos]

IMO, stupid owner who has no idea what the horse is worth, or sleazy trainer just looking for a day rate. Just as bad when the horse is ITM at a lower price and is raised back up.
Waste of horse's energy. waste of training skills. waste of time handicapping.

[CryingForTheHorses]

This post is 4 years and 4 months old.I am bumping this up to tell Karl my dear invisible pal that he was RIGHT,,While at the time I was struggling to get stalls.I now currently have 12 stalls am am still the RS's dream runner.Every horse deserves a chance to run if he makes it,Doesnt matter where they finish,They can only do what they can. Thanks