Man O War Secretariat Citation Etc

[Citation33]

Hello to everyone. Looks like a great forum. Anyway,I know its an old arguement with no clear answer,but hey its fun. You know I always loved the great horses,who doesnt. Secretariat,Man O War,Citation,Dr Fager,Cigar,etc. You know though I always believe the horses today are faster than those of yesterday,just because of natural evolution which scientists agree mammals and animals are getting faster and smarter as time roles on. I mean even if you look at Olympic records and certainly in track and field or marathons whether it be 200 yrd races or the classic Mile or 26M marathons,humans keep getting faster and fasters destroying the record times decade after decade. Yes athletes today have better training and so do horses. But back to Secretariat or Man O War,I noticed when Man O War ran he ran against a avg field of 3 horses,he never had to deal with full fields,traffic trouble,bad luck,etc. Also when Man O War ran there were only 3,500 horses running at the time! Thats not alot of competition. Secretariat had to deal with 55,000 other horses and horses liek Cigar had to deal with over 100,000 other horses. Also when Man O War ran no one wanted to go against the best horse at the time because there was no BIG money inlvolved so he ran against nobodys like hoodwink. Secretariat,Cigar,etc had to run against big fields where anything can happen because with big money comes owners just entering horse to try and get a piece of the big money these days. If Man O war had to run against full fields of 10 or more most of his races he would have had a harder time of controlling the pace and dealing with traffic. Also stories get thrown outta whack over the years. growing up I heard Man O War's one loss was because he was turned around and when the race started he spotted the field a hug amount of lengths. I have the Champion Thorughbred Book with all PP's of the great horses and that race was a 6F race and at the first call with 5F to go he was only 1 1/2 behind the leader. I mean 5fs is alot of time to make up 1 1/2 lengths. Dont get me wrong I think Man O War was a great horse and the best of his time,but I also think theres alot of hype with the athletes of yesterday. Yeah sure MOW shoes were heavier but you know Secretariats shoes were heavier than the horses of today 30 yrs later and he still hold unbelieveable records. Its like alot of people say Jim Brown was the greatest running back,wait when Jim Brown ran the avg weight of a Defensive lineman was 185lbs. Now guys are an avg of 300lbs and they can move fast as hell for their weight,Jim brown wouldnt have it as easys today,he was a big man against smaller guys. Good for his time though. Its all about different eras. Not looking start any bad vibes just my opinion,but I will say that Man O War never ran against any fields,never had to deal with big fields for big money where traffic trouble,pace trouble,bad racing luck,etc happens. The reason this actually came up is because I saw a fantasy race made up with all the great horses and they had Man O War putting away all the great horses by 8 lengths. Dr Fager,Ruffian,and Affirmed couldnt keep up and finished 15 lengths behind. Secretariat ran second. I dont belive that at all. You put Man O War on a track with Secretariat when hes prime an Man O War wont catch him. Secretariats set time records in all thre TC races,and he had to run against 55,000 other horses not just 3,500. His 1 1/2 record will still be standing 30 yrs from now. That time is insane. Anyway just one mans opinion. Who Knows hah. Anyway good to be on this great forum.

[toetoe]

Citation,

You're a globetrotter --- all over the map. First, humans are faster, based on record times. Then, thoroughbreds are faster, because, well, you know, they must be --- evolution and all that. Then, Man O War had no excuse, then maybe he did. He was overrated, no wait ... maybe he wasn't. :confused:

[46zilzal]

bottom line: comparisons break down when there is too much time between them: training mehtods, shoes, nutrition, meds to aid with breathing and bleeding make these arguments about one horse over another very weak

[Citation33]

Toe did you even read the page. I said he was overated. Just because I said he was a great horse and the best of his era doesnt mean im saying he would beat any horse in history. I think hes overrated as the best horse of all time because of certain factors that I listed,but im not gonna take away he was the best of his era. Theres a big difference. I also said who knows because its just my opinion,everyone is entitled to their opinion whether it might be wrong or right. I posed the question of athletic evolution as a podium on maybe that horses along with humans are faster today. I wasnt all over the place. I stand by what I originally said "great for his time and one of the great horses but I dont think hes the greatest or fastest of all time,I think secretariat is"
Very true 46ZilZal,just thought Id post the topic for a little harmless fun and banter.

[GaryG]

Welcome....in my opinion Citation's 3yo year in 1948 was the greatest single season ever. Speaking of faster times today, didn't he run a mile at GGF in around 1:33? That record stood for years but may have been broken by now.

[Citation33]

Yeah Citation did run 1:33.3 at GG in the Golden Gate Mile,pulling away from Bolero by 3/4 length. His 3yo season was def one of the great 3yo seasons. Only lost the Chesapeake Trial when he was carried wide in the stretch. Caros Love took the record in Feb of 1988 by clockin 1:33.0. Think it still stands today.

[46zilzal]

red is my favorite and am biased in his favor as well.

[GaryG]

I loved him too and visited him often. What is truly awesome about Claiborne is to look at the names on the stalls of former residents in the stud barn. Nasrullah, Sir Gallahad 3rd, Gallant Fox, Round Table, Bold Ruler Nijinsky and on and on. That stopped me in my tracks, not to mention the cemetery.

[Citation33]

Thats awesome. I never been there,but have to def go. Hands down the greatest sport of all time. The action,drama,rises and falls cant be beaten by any sport in my opinion. Shame its not recognized as much as it used to be.

[GaryG]

Just call ahead and ask to have Jerry show you the stallions. He took care of Danzig the whole time he was there.

[Bruddah]

If you want a horses' horse, read about Native Dancer. He lost only 1 start out of 22 and that was a 2nd in the 1953 KY Derby. His career earnings were in excess of $785k. A huge amount of money in those days, considering inflation and the size of purses then. He went on to win the Preakness and Belmont. He Was the sire of Raise A Native (sire of Mr Prospector) and Natalma, who was the dam of Northern Dancer. So that lineage traces back to him. Tracing back to him through Raise A Native are 12 Ky Derby winners. The most recent being Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones. No other bloodline comes close to the great Native Dancer.

If he had won the 1953 Ky Derby, he would have been the horse/sire of the century. (JMHO)

[JPinMaryland]

I am not so sure the breed is getting faster. For one thing with hores it is the same genetic pool used over and over again. In the case of humans and evolving records, the pool of athletes has been expanding since WW II with more athletes everywhere: Africa, latin america, china etc.

For another thing. Are these horse times really getting faster over the last x years? Just because a track record happens to be broken recently does not mean the average horse has gotten faster it could just be an outlier in the data pt. SUppose I open a race track in year 0 and year 10 I tell you the SLOWEST time ever was 2:12 for 10f then in year 20 I tell you the slowest track record is 2:13. Does that mean horses are slower? or I just found another outlier data pt?

Finally when you go back beyond x years (say maybe 40 or 50) there are lots of differences. Like shoes, surface, grading etc. Did you ever see that picture of Broker's Tip and Head Play in the Kentucky derby? Jockey's dont do that stuff anymore do they? How much difference would that have made in the old days?

My guess is that without the iron shoes and w/ graded tracks some of those old horses could run as fast. There is probably a 2 sec. difference due to technolog between 1940 to 1950, you can see that drop if you graph it. Then through in the jockey interference in the 1930s and there's some more time. ANd they didnt have automatic gates until 1930 or so and that probably adds time too.

ANd consider this. Peace Chance ran his final 1/4 in the Belmont in 23 3/5. This is in 1934, he might have stayed with secretariat on that day.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Science is making them faster, but not much since the early 1990's.
Needed for proof- a standard measurement.

Needed to get faster yet- horses that can talk and tell how much pain and where it is!!

[46zilzal]

the ONLY dirt race, I have EVER charted that got faster rather than slower over the course of the race.
0:25 1/5
0:24
0:23 4/5
0:23 2/5
0:23

then looked like this after the race.

[toetoe]

I take it that's not Angle Light?

[46zilzal]

I take it that's not Angle Light?
look at the background and you can tell it's Churchill not Aqueduct

[Citation33]

Wouldve been tough for anyone to beat Secretariat in those TC races. That was just insane he would just go faster and faster during the race. The Belmont was nuts. That record will be so tough to even approach. Wish I wouldve saw those is person. When he retired he was sold for a record $6.08 million syndicate. Imagine his price if it were today?

[classhandicapper]

So if Secretariat was as good as his reputation, how good was Sham for the first two legs until he got torched in the 3rd?