American Deaths - very sad...........

[ecaroff]

American Deaths over the Last Three Years Put in Perspective:
• Auto Accidents: 120,000
• Falling Down: 45,000
• Poisoning: 27,000
• Drowning: 12,000
• War in Iraq: 2,300


• Number of Anti-War Protestors in NYC on Sunday: 200

[Tom]

I wouldn't trivialze 2,300 lives like that. That it 2,300 too many, and the end is not in sight. Put the 9-11 deaths on that chart as well - see what I mean? OBL is not as bad for us as GM or Ford by your chart. You have way too much hatred.

[mainardi]

I took this to show how out of whack the reporting of the deaths in Iraq have become. Why do we not have an outcry for people to drive safer? Because it's not news... people can't galvanize to it. It is no less traumatic to lose a loved one in an auto accident... I had a good friend killed by a drunk driver almost 20 years ago, and I still think about him and get sad.

Nobody likes war and the casualties they inflict, but the opposite -- in deference to the bumper sticker that says it's peace -- is surrender. Granted, we are not directly protecting the USA by being in Iraq, but the world is so much more globalized, and we find ourselves fighting for others' rights. I'd hope that if the situation were reversed, that someone would come to our aid.

[ecaroff]

You have way too much hatred.

Hatred? I am simply giving some facts. Why do you want to make this political?

[Tom]

So you are saying our losses in Iraq are insignificant?

Political-don't give me that BS - everything YOU post is political.

[hcap]

This is not perspective.
Comparing Falling Down 45,000 deaths to casualities in war is bogus.

Maybe bush should declare war on step ladders

[lsbets]

Maybe bush should declare war on step ladders

As many times as I jam my fingers in one when I'm closing it, that might not be a bad idea .............

[ljb]

Banning automobiles would be another step back to the horse and buggy days. Perhaps a good thing, NOT.

[Tom]

Everyday, thousands of people die in hospitals......ban 'em!

And doctors are frequently in the presence of people when the die....those bastards! :rolleyes:

[JustRalph]

The point is that all the hollering about combat deaths is over blown.

We are three years into a "ground campaign" fighting in the streets with gorilla type fighters and our deaths are at less than 2500. This is a tremendous military accomplishment. End of story. Yet nobody reports it that way because it wouldn't fit the media agenda.

[Indulto]

ecaroff,
What is the source of your statistics?

Do you happen to also know how many people died as a result of gang (urban terrorist?) activity over that same period? Or the number of deaths caused by substance abuse including victims of abusers (e.g., drunk drivers)? What about suicides, unnatural deaths in prisons, and legal executions? How many U.S. non-military personnel died in Iraq?

JR,
How many wounded were permanently disabled or otherwise handicapped for the rest of their lives? How many military family members had their lives tragically impacted by the war in Iraq?

If anything is being overblown, it's your labeling the result "a tremendous military accomplishment". You should have written that post from the deck of an aircraft carrier.

[twindouble]

ecaroff,
What is the source of your statistics?

JR,
How many wounded were permanently disabled or otherwise handicapped for the rest of their lives? How many military family members had their lives tragically impacted by the war in Iraq?

If anything is being overblown, it's your labeling the result "a tremendous military accomplishment". You should have written that post from the deck of an aircraft carrier.

Please include the almost 3,000 that died on 911 along with the Cole, and other terrorest attacks through out the world, prior to the Iraq war. :bang:

[lsbets]

[size=3]If anything is being overblown, it's your labeling the result "a tremendous military accomplishment". You should have written that post from the deck of an aircraft carrier.

Not from an aircraft carrier, from the comfort of my own home after having been in the sand there for 13 months. Ralph is 100% correct when he labels it a tremendous military accomplishment.

[46zilzal]

Please include the almost 3,000 that died on 911 along with the Cole, and other terrorest attacks through out the world, prior to the Iraq war.
how many Iraqi citizens were responsible for either of these yet they become the "whipping boy" on the rutabaga's war on 'TERRAH'

[shots]

The point is that all the hollering about combat deaths is over blown.

We are three years into a "ground campaign" fighting in the streets with gorilla type fighters and our deaths are at less than 2500. This is a tremendous military accomplishment. End of story. Yet nobody reports it that way because it wouldn't fit the media agenda.
I have to agree that militarily these are very light casualties given the number of military personnel in Iraq. Knowing that the military wasn't allowed to due the job completely the first time, this was going to cost alot of lives the next time around.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by Mainardi:

Granted, we are not directly protecting the USA by being in Iraq, but the world is so much more globalized, and we find ourselves fighting for others' rights. I'd hope that if the situation were reversed, that someone would come to our aid.JM,
Among the sacrifices arising from our misadventure in Iraq were our standing in the world community, the respect and/or allegiance of some other countries, and the trust of some traditional allies. We have, of course, acquired a reputation as an aggressor and created a roster of countries that now fear us, but for how long? If we don’t feel safe now, how will we feel when – given this latest tremendous expenditure of our financial and military resources – we are faced with future threats without once trusted allies who no longer trust us or decide they no longer need us?

[twindouble]

how many Iraqi citizens were responsible for either of these yet they become the "whipping boy" on the rutabaga's war on 'TERRAH'

Why don't you arrange a meeting with Osama, the Mullahs, the Imams of the Arab world, maybe you can join up and learn first hand how right they are in there quest to destroy innocent lives through out the world. After all, Bush is wrong and they are right in your opinion. Just don't disagree with anything they say because they will cut your freaking head off and send it to your mother.


T.D.

[lsbets]

Indulto - do you mean allies like France who kicked us out during the Cold War and then wouldn't let us fly over their territory when we bombed Libya? Are they a once trusted ally? I guess if you go back 200 years you can call them that, but looking at the last 100 years or so the only time they were our ally was when they needed us to bail them out. If they are an example of the so called allies you are referring to, they don't matter. France has been irrelevant for a long time.

[46zilzal]

After all, Bush is wrong and they are right in your opinion.
you are of the "WID me or AGGIN" group

calling one side incorrect does not make the other side right. THERE ARE MANY differents points here not the FOX news point of view a.k.a. O'Reilly : "with us or the terrorists"

[twindouble]

you are of the "WID me or AGGIN" group

calling one side incorrect does not make the other side right. THERE ARE MANY differents points here not the FOX news point of view a.k.a. O'Reilly : "with us or the terrorists"

To suggest that at age 65 I don't have a mind of my own is insulting. I didn't stoop that low now did I?


T.D.

[46zilzal]

[/b]

To suggest that at age 65 I don't have a mind of my own is insulting. I didn't stoop that low now did I?

T.D.
seemed to have made it very BLACK and WHITE which it is not. didn't say anything about making up your own mind, just have a limited scope in your options that's all.

[Indulto]

Originaly posted by twindouble:

Please include the almost 3,000 that died on 911 along with the Cole, and other terrorest attacks through out the world, prior to the Iraq war.TD,
Not sure whether your post was intended to support or contradict my position.

I‘ve never felt our actions in Afghanistan were unjustified. I do believe the unavailability of resources deployed in Iraq compromised our ability to capture or eliminate OBL and to erase the Taliban threat. Maybe contributing to infrastructure there might have resulted in less poppy production and greater stability, but there wasn’t any oil to pump.

It is regretful that a “tremendous” opportunity to cooperatively make the planet a better and safer place -- and to create a positive influence within the World’s Muslim community -- may have been wasted.

BTW not all Muslims are Arabs or terrorists. How will we prevent terror group recruitment in the Middle East when we can’t stop the gang recruitment of the children of law-abiding Blacks and Latinos in Los Angeles? Have we stemmed recruitment of Skinheads among White youth yet?

[Indulto]

Originally posted by lsbets:

Not from an aircraft carrier, from the comfort of my own home after having been in the sand there for 13 months. Ralph is 100% correct when he labels it a tremendous military accomplishment.lsbets,

It is difficult if not impossible to dispute the views of a unique individual who has served our country, faced the danger that others here have not, endured the risks posed to family, and either despite or because of that experience, not only considers it worthwhile, but also does not object to continuing to see other young men attempt to survive the odds he has beaten without the benefit of the leadership he provided to those under his command, but which is more difficult than ever to recruit.

I suppose some of Napoleon’s military victories were tremendous, but I’m sure glad Wellington won.

Indulto - do you mean allies like France who kicked us out during the Cold War and then wouldn't let us fly over their territory when we bombed Libya? Are they a once trusted ally? I guess if you go back 200 years you can call them that, but looking at the last 100 years or so the only time they were our ally was when they needed us to bail them out. If they are an example of the so called allies you are referring to, they don't matter. France has been irrelevant for a long time.Having been devastated by modern war and aggression on their own soil, France can be expected to resist endorsing our enthusiasm for tactical offensives. As part of a global economy and community facing the threat of terrorism and WMDs, we had better learn to stay in synch with nations in which democracy is both historic and stable. Do you define your friendships by asking “What have you done for me lately?” It’s more about what we’ve done to ourselves than what they have done to us.

[twindouble]

TD,
Not sure whether your post was intended to support or contradict my position.

I‘ve never felt our actions in Afghanistan were unjustified. I do believe the unavailability of resources deployed in Iraq compromised our ability to capture or eliminate OBL and to erase the Taliban threat. Maybe contributing to infrastructure there might have resulted in less poppy production and greater stability, but there wasn’t any oil to pump.

It is regretful that a “tremendous” opportunity to cooperatively make the planet a better and safer place -- and to create a positive influence within the World’s Muslim community -- may have been wasted.

BTW not all Muslims are Arabs or terrorists. How will we prevent terror group recruitment in the Middle East when we can’t stop the gang recruitment of the children of law-abiding Blacks and Latinos in Los Angeles? Have we stemmed recruitment of Skinheads among White youth yet?

It just upsets me when people just ignore the fact that the terrorists have been attacking us right along like 911 never happened. Plus ignoring what Ben Ladin goals are and that is to bring upon us a world wide Muslim war.

When it comes to Muslims as a whole this is what I said in my Preemptive thread.

Anyone who thinks the majority of Muslims in the middle east aren't as compassionate about life, humanity and peace as we are is dead wrong. They are at a critical point in their existence, they will shed what brings them to poverty and suppression of their free will. The Coran will not die with it like the Bible didn't. We have done a piss poor job through out the decades in making known what our real intentions are and that problem still exists today. That's one front in this war we have ignored.


T.D.

[lsbets]

With France its not a question of what have they done for us lately, its a question of what have they done for us since the Revolutionary War, when their goal really wasn't so much to help us, rather it was to humiliate the British.

The French pulled out of the NATO alliance at the height of the Cold War. France has not been an ally of ours for a long, long time. There is a lot about French culture that I admire, but to say that France has ever really been an ally of ours is simply wrong. The only time in the modern era they wanted anything to do with us was the two times Germany was kicking their ass. For us to base any policy decision on the opinion of France, a nation whose 20th century history is a shining example of the failure of appeasement, would be an injustice to all Americans. When you point to their having been devastated by modern war on their soil, don't forget what led to that - attempting to appease the aggressor, thinking they could buy peace with goodwill. Had they acted preemptively in the 1930s rather than hiding behind the Maginot Line, 20th century history could have turned out much differently.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by twindouble:

When it comes to Muslims as a whole this is what I said in my Preemptive thread.

Anyone who thinks the majority of Muslims in the middle east aren't as compassionate about life, humanity and peace as we are is dead wrong. They are at a critical point in their existence, they will shed what brings them to poverty and suppression of their free will. The Coran will not die with it like the Bible didn't. We have done a piss poor job through out the decades in making known what our real intentions are and that problem still exists today. That's one front in this war we have ignored.TD,

Thanks for clarifying your position so eloquently.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by lsbets:

The only time in the modern era they wanted anything to do with us was the two times Germany was kicking their ass. For us to base any policy decision on the opinion of France, a nation whose 20th century history is a shining example of the failure of appeasement, would be an injustice to all Americans.
lsbets,

Why aren’t you as willing to absolve the post-WW II French government of appeasement as you are the post-WW II German government of aggression, considering that both opposed the invasion of Iraq along with the post-USSR Russian government which threatened our very existence? Do you think the Iraqis will absolve us of liberating them?

Feel free to order a French Fry or even to French-kiss one’s significant other. I’m told that kissing certain female French ass is even better than kicking it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[twindouble]

TD,

Thanks for clarifying your position so eloquently.

Thanks but I thought it was beyond me to be eloquent in anything I do or say. I'm a meat and potato man and my buddies would be ROTF laughing their fanny off knowing what you said. :lol:


T.D.

[Indulto]

TD,

Eloquence is like art -- appreciating it is more a function of vision communication and perception than of physical implementation. The conviction and sincerity you communicated is impressive and if anyone can better express “They are at a critical point in their existence, they will shed what brings them to poverty and suppression of their free will”, then let them have at it.

[twindouble]

TD,

Eloquence is like art -- appreciating it is more a function of vision communication and perception than of physical implementation. The conviction and sincerity you communicated is impressive and if anyone can better express “They are at a critical point in their existence, they will shed what brings them to poverty and suppression of their free will”, then let them have at it.

Thanks again, I feel like I just hit a 60-1 shot. :)

[Indulto]

lsbets,

I’m surprised you didn’t point out that French factions had a vested interest in Iraq, some in violation of U.N. statutes. I don’t know if any of those interests were held by the French government or, if not, whether the private interests were being protected by the government. Maybe you, Statman, Hcap, or Sec remembers.

Of course unprincipled profiteers operate everywhere, but it is important for our government to learn all it possibly can about that involvement before attempting to repair the relationship. What I’m leading to is: Why and how were the French, Germans, and Russians able to establish an influential presence in Iraq and other Muslim countries in a way that didn’t earn them undying enmity from the people who were being repressed?

Simplistically, it seems our influence focused on support for undemocratic governments in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq, and Egypt at the expense of huge numbers of people whose lives were made progressively worse in the process. What public and private U.S. entities profited from that policy? And weren’t we involved in Sadaam’s acquiring the chemical weapons he used on Iran? The point is: Our hands are not clean enough to call anyone else’s kettle black.

Which is why I and some other LOYAL Americans just can’t say, “OK, Dick and George, go kick some Iraqi ass, grab that oil for your favorite industry, afterwards call yourselves liberators, and become legends in your own minds as visionaries who established an American foothold in the Middle East regardless of the human and economic cost.

And – for the benefit of the Leftys and ecaroffs -- that doesn’t place me on the side of the terrorists all of whom I believe should be destroyed, literally -- global or urban, along with those who enable them. I most definitely support the amazing young people serving as our troops in Iraq bearing the entire world’s burden in trying to locate deadly terrorists, end the insurgency, and improve the lives of innocent Iraqis in countless ways.

I will never take their sacrifices for granted. Whenever I see someone in uniform now I thank them for my child’s life. Nothing challenges my belief in some higher power like hearing that some terrible tragedy or injustice has befallen a returning soldier or a promising future is snuffed out in a gang shooting. What can possibly be the grand objective in removing the a bright future from a provenly productive life which has already been allowed to survive incredible odds?

In conclusion, it is our responsibility as U.S. citizens in today’s world where nothing can be taken at face value, to sift through whatever facts we can get our hands on, and come to reasonable conclusions even when they don’t serve our immediate self-interest. Long-term survival usually requires sacrifices of some sort, but vigilance is necessary to ensure that the burden is minimal and just.

Thanks, lsbets, for helping me to clarify my own thoughts despite our differences.

[twindouble]

lsbets,

I’m surprised you didn’t point out that French factions had a vested interest in Iraq, some in violation of U.N. statutes. I don’t know if any of those interests were held by the French government or, if not, whether the private interests were being protected by the government. Maybe you, Statman, Hcap, or Sec remembers.

Of course unprincipled profiteers operate everywhere, but it is important for our government to learn all it possibly can about that involvement before attempting to repair the relationship. What I’m leading to is: Why and how were the French, Germans, and Russians able to establish an influential presence in Iraq and other Muslim countries in a way that didn’t earn them undying enmity from the people who were being repressed?

Simplistically, it seems our influence focused on support for undemocratic governments in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq, and Egypt at the expense of huge numbers of people whose lives were made progressively worse in the process. What public and private U.S. entities profited from that policy? And weren’t we involved in Sadaam’s acquiring the chemical weapons he used on Iran? The point is: Our hands are not clean enough to call anyone else’s kettle black.

Which is why I and some other LOYAL Americans just can’t say, “OK, Dick and George, go kick some Iraqi ass, grab that oil for your favorite industry, afterwards call yourselves liberators, and become legends in your own minds as visionaries who established an American foothold in the Middle East regardless of the human and economic cost.

And – for the benefit of the Leftys and ecaroffs -- that doesn’t place me on the side of the terrorists all of whom I believe should be destroyed, literally -- global or urban, along with those who enable them. I most definitely support the amazing young people serving as our troops in Iraq bearing the entire world’s burden in trying to locate deadly terrorists, end the insurgency, and improve the lives of innocent Iraqis in countless ways.

I will never take their sacrifices for granted. Whenever I see someone in uniform now I thank them for my child’s life. Nothing challenges my belief in some higher power like hearing that some terrible tragedy or injustice has befallen a returning soldier or a promising future is snuffed out in a gang shooting. What can possibly be the grand objective in removing the a bright future from a provenly productive life which has already been allowed to survive incredible odds?

In conclusion, it is our responsibility as U.S. citizens in today’s world where nothing can be taken at face value, to sift through whatever facts we can get our hands on, and come to reasonable conclusions even when they don’t serve our immediate self-interest. Long-term survival usually requires sacrifices of some sort, but vigilance is necessary to ensure that the burden is minimal and just.

Thanks, lsbets, for helping me to clarify my own thoughts despite our differences.

I agree but at this point in our evolution the standards, ethics and moral responsibility you aspire to just don't exist now or historically, ESP when it comes to the rich, powerful now and from the beginning. What you alluded to is limited to just the individuals that have a minor impact on the bigger picture, sad but true. We do honor them for their sacrifices but at the same time we sew the seeds for more greed, corruption, hatred, bigotry and injustice through out the world. That isn't by no means limited to just us but inspite of all our short comings we have more to offer because in our heart we are striving to achieve that equitable balance that humanity is in dire need of.

I can't see things getting better in the foreseeable future if anything it will get much worse. Poverty, famine, war, and disease are the shackles of humanity.So far we have proven we are incapable of forging the keys those shackles.


T.D.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by twindouble:

We do honor them for their sacrifices but at the same time we sew the seeds for more greed, corruption, hatred, bigotry and injustice through out the world. That isn't by no means limited to just us but inspite of all our short comings we have more to offer because in our heart we are striving to achieve that equitable balance that humanity is in dire need of.TD,
Years ago, I’d have agreed 100% with that thought, but as we move further and further away from the spirit and intent of our founding fathers, we lose our ability to claim the high road. IMO the prevailing attitude toward France presented by lsbets displays an arrogance we have acquired that blinds us to that “equitable balance” we indeed should be “striving to achieve.”

Without doubt, America has been the beacon for the rest of the world, but the light is dimming due to corruption, fraud, and the now socially-acceptable blatant self-interest that leads to the above-mentioned arrogance. I would add religious bigotry to that list, but it’s hardly limited to this country.
Increasingly, people in other hemispheres are looking elsewhere for a better life. Most doors to a good life in Europe are shut as ours soon will be due to terrorism and our shrinking unskilled labor market. Whether that’s bad or good only time will tell. No, I wouldn’t move to Canada, Australia, or Sweden, but they have some things to teach us if we’d listen

I agree but at this point in our evolution the standards, ethics and moral responsibility you aspire to just don't exist now or historically, ESP when it comes to the rich, powerful now and from the beginning.As you quoted my entire post, it isn’t clear to me what you agreed with. Obviously you didn’t buy everything in the store.

Poverty, famine, war, and disease are the shackles of humanity.So far we have proven we are incapable of forging the keys those shackles.I think I hear your friends ROTF, eloquent one.

[twindouble]

As you quoted my entire post, it isn’t clear to me what you agreed with. Obviously you didn’t buy everything in the store.Quote; Indulto.


In conclusion, it is our responsibility as U.S. citizens in today’s world where nothing can be taken at face value, to sift through whatever facts we can get our hands on, and come to reasonable conclusions even when they don’t serve our immediate self-interest. Long-term survival usually requires sacrifices of some sort, but vigilance is necessary to ensure that the burden is minimal and just.

Your summery above is what I was mainly responding to but there wasn't anything in your post that I could disagree with.

I think I hear your friends ROTF, eloquent one. :lol: Johnny Carson came to mind.

T.D.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by twindouble:

Your summery above is what I was mainly responding to but there wasn't anything in your post that I could disagree with.TD,
As you've just thrown caution to the winds and doubled your target size, maybe we should call you twintrouble.;)

[twindouble]

TD,
As you've just thrown caution to the winds and doubled your target size, maybe we should call you twintrouble.;) Quote Indulto




The point is: Our hands are not clean enough to call anyone else’s kettle black.

Which is why I and some other LOYAL Americans just can’t say, “OK, Dick and George, go kick some Iraqi ass, grab that oil for your favorite industry, afterwards call yourselves liberators, and become legends in your own minds as visionaries who established an American foothold in the Middle East regardless of the human and economic cost. quote Indulto

If this is what your refering to, like I said in another post. "Every super power needs natural resorses to survive including the emerging ones. Plus your right our hands are far from being clean. No arguement.

Like I said what you aspire to gets my respect but we have to deal with what's in front of us and at this point we don't have any other choices other that what we are doing.

T.D.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by twindouble:

we have to deal with what's in front of us and at this point we don't have any other choices other that what we are doing.So we don't agree after all. I have more to say about that, but first I want to ask lsbets (or anyone) for some clarification: Is it true that Iraqi Shiites are not participating in the insurgency; that it is limited to Iraqi Sunni's and foreign fanatics of various Muslim sects? Is that the basis for calling it civil war or do Iraqi Sunnis attack Iraqi Shiites independently of the insurgency? Do the foeign terrorists attack Iraqi Sunnis as well as Iraqi Shiites or are there other scenarios? Thanks to whomever replies.

[lsbets]

Indulto - remember, whatever first hand knowledge I have of Iraq is purely anecdotal easily dismissed because it is tainted by my rather narrow view based on my mission, and is further tainted by an arrogance born out of a blatant self interest and probably mixed with a little bit of religious bigotry. So, read the NY Times, I'm sure they can give you a better account (or at least one you won't gloss over or dismiss).

[Indulto]

Originally posted by lstbets:

Indulto - remember, whatever first hand knowledge I have of Iraq is purely anecdotal easily dismissed because it is tainted by my rather narrow view based on my mission, and is further tainted by an arrogance born out of a blatant self interest and probably mixed with a little bit of religious bigotry. So, read the NY Times, I'm sure they can give you a better account (or at least one you won't gloss over or dismiss).lsbets,
Sorry you took my rebuttals so personally. Obviously I wasn't careful enough to separate you as a person from what I consider general trends that have led to internal dissension and less opportunity in our country. Let me make it clear that I never considered you arrogant or having exhibited blatant self-interest, much less a religious bigot. If I sounded dismissive in what I thought was a humorous recognition of your "kick ass" comment, it was not my intent and I aplogize if it appeared in any way disrespectful. It would definitely sadden me if there should be an end to what I thought was mutual respect and I was sincere in thanking you for stimulating my thinking.

[twindouble]

So we don't agree after all. I have more to say about that, but first I want to ask lsbets (or anyone) for some clarification: Is it true that Iraqi Shiites are not participating in the insurgency; that it is limited to Iraqi Sunni's and foreign fanatics of various Muslim sects? Is that the basis for calling it civil war or do Iraqi Sunnis attack Iraqi Shiites independently of the insurgency? Do the foeign terrorists attack Iraqi Sunnis as well as Iraqi Shiites or are there other scenarios? Thanks to whomever replies.

Here's my take on it.

The fact of the matter is we'll never know to any degree that creates a clear picture as to who, when, where and why. Those that appose the war say Saddam was keeping the peace and would never been a threat to us or his neighbors. Don't matter to them what was going on or how he ruled his people. Mass murder, ethnic cleansing, starvation, absconding the treasury for his own use, suppressing every civil liberty that we believe in with the tools of torture and death. Plus ignoring the fact his goal to begin with was to conquer his neighbors and control the riches of that all important resource oil. Look at it this way, if there was no 911 would it have been right for the world community to turn a blind eye to all that, like we did knowing very well Hitler was rounding up millions of Jews and starving the to death in the ghettos' prior to the gas chambers.

Now when Saddam was defeated, just where do think all those nice people went that served him so well and got rewarded for it? It would be like us emptying our jails of every violent criminal that housed in this country and imported a few thousand to boot. They are very much a part of the so-called insurgency. It's not beyond them to force people to strap a bomb to themselves treating to kill their whole family or drive a car loaded with explosives to certain death.

Another ignorant argument is we took our eye off the ball, Osama Ben Ladin by taking on Iraq. We drove him out of Afghanistan, then what would have been the best course of action? Invade Pakistan to hunt him along with the Taliban? That would have been seen a huge mistake here and through out the middle east. Getting Pakistan on our side was the best move and we had reason to move on Saddam. So, do you think Osama and the Taliban just folded up and are hiding in some caves in fear of showing their faces? Are we being lied to when they say Osama has a world wide organization of terrorists and 911 and other attacks on us were just a fluke? The Taliban and Al Qaeda with the help of Zarqawie are part of that insurgency as well and they have been using every faction in Iraq to serve their purpose, I wouldn't call that civil war.

Don't end there we all know Al Qaeda has a foot hold in Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. Here's link that lists the terrorist organizations, just pick out the ones in the middle east. http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/Org.cfm (http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/Org.cfm). that have a stake in the out come of the Iraq war. Then just think about those Temples of hate and destructing, were the religious fundamental fanatics that have been turning out terrorist for many years. ESP Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Just one other note. Colin Powell showed his true colors when he told Bush when come to making the decision on going into Iraq. "If you break it you own it". Meaning he didn't have the balls to take on the terrorists through out the middle east and he was fine with keeping Saddam in power. He packed his bags and bailed out thinking he wouldn't want a blemish like that on his record politically or otherwise. In my opinion he either a coward or he just failed to see the bigger picture like Bush did. Bush knew very well if we did nothing now, the day would come when there would be hell to pay down the road.

T.D.

[betchatoo]

Just one other note. Colin Powell showed his true colors when he told Bush when come to making the decision on going into Iraq. "If you break it you own it". Meaning he didn't have the balls to take on the terrorists through out the middle east and he was fine with keeping Saddam in power. He packed his bags and bailed out thinking he wouldn't want a blemish like that on his record politically or otherwise. In my opinion he either a coward or he just failed to see the bigger picture like Bush did. Bush knew very well if we did nothing now, the day would come when there would be hell to pay down the road.

T.D.

It was George Bush who didn't have a clue about the big picture. He invaded Iraq without any clue on how he was going to get back out again. This is what Colin Powell tried to tell him. We are stuck in a quagmire with no end in sight. It is possible Bush bought those bright scenarios that the Iraqi people would welcome us with open arms and marching bands. If so, he's more naive than even I thought.

[twindouble]

It was George Bush who didn't have a clue about the big picture. He invaded Iraq without any clue on how he was going to get back out again. This is what Colin Powell tried to tell him. We are stuck in a quagmire with no end in sight. It is possible Bush bought those bright scenarios that the Iraqi people would welcome us with open arms and marching bands. If so, he's more naive than even I thought.

Actions speek louder than words. Bush took the tough road, Powell flew the coop! Simple as that!


T.D.

[ljb]

Actions speek louder than words. Bush took the tough road, Powell flew the coop! Simple as that!


T.D.
But Powell was correct in his original assessment of the situation and Bush was wrong !
Simple as that!

[twindouble]

But Powell was correct in his original assessment of the situation and Bush was wrong !
Simple as that!

Well, Powell must have had freaking blinders on when doing his assessment, over many years there was a cancer growing like a wild fire though out the middle east, only a dummy would think it was just a rash! ESP after 911.


T.D.

[ljb]

Well, Powell must have had freaking blinders on when doing his assessment, over many years there was a cancer growing like a wild fire though out the middle east, only a dummy would think it was just a rash! ESP after 911.


T.D.
What are you talking about? We all know what happened on 9/11. We also know Saddam had no link to 9/11, even Bush has finally admitted that.
Powell was the only one in the administration that spoke the truth. (with the exception of his dismal speech at the U.N.)

[twindouble]

What are you talking about? We all know what happened on 9/11. We also know Saddam had no link to 9/11, even Bush has finally admitted that.
Powell was the only one in the administration that spoke the truth. (with the exception of his dismal speech at the U.N.)

Screw Saddam, I can't wait for the day he's hanging from a rope. Why don't you go there and try to free your hero! Sounds like you have more reverence for him than you do your own president. He's scum of the earth and the world is better off without him and so are the Iraqi people.


T.D.

[46zilzal]

Screw Saddam, I can't wait for the day he's hanging from a rope. Why don't you go there and try to free your hero! Sounds like you have more reverence for him than you do your own president. He's scum of the earth and the world is better off without him and so are the Iraqi people.

another one who bought into the BLACK AND WHITE argument that if you raise ANY dissent about the rutabaga then suddenly you are an fundamentalist jihadist.

[46zilzal]

intersting ploy Iraq. Kind of like the way magicians and pick pockets master their craft. Make a large plausible diversion (or this case REACT to one) while clandestinely making the rabbit disappear or steal your wallet.

In this case use a national disaster to follow the EXACT format that the neocons had HOPED to accomplish. http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Sneaking it in under the guise of the attack while emotions are high and, by the way, their ETHNICITY was the right one to focus all the anger upon.

[twindouble]

another one who bought into the BLACK AND WHITE argument that if you raise ANY dissent about the rutabaga then suddenly you are an fundamentalist jihadist.

25; Anyone who doesn't think Saddam was a threat to the middle east and us, has a rutabaga stuck up their fanny and are full of crap. I doubt any laxative I brew up would work anyway.

Keep in mind, our political opinions are just that, nothing eles.


T.D.

[Tom]

Bush made two major errors - he didn't listen enough to Powell and he listened too much to Rumsfled.

We should have gone into Iraq - no doubt about that - but with a comprehensive plan and a much larger force than we did. We did not secure the country and we stopped hostilities far too soon, IMHO.
Rumsfeld, again just MHO, is a egotistical maniac who to this day is feeding his massive ego at the expense of many lives. This idiot was not thinking about the best way to topple the regime and rebuild Iraq the best way, only in making himself look good.

We allowed the insurgency to grow into what it is today, and that is on Rummy 100%.

This guy goes down in my history as Al Qeda's employee of the month.

We paid a far bigger price than we should have.

[ljb]

Screw Saddam, I can't wait for the day he's hanging from a rope. Why don't you go there and try to free your hero! Sounds like you have more reverence for him than you do your own president. He's scum of the earth and the world is better off without him and so are the Iraqi people.


T.D.
Your ignorance is bursting again. I have no love for Saddam, he was/is a brutal thug. My concern is the ill advised and ill planned invasion of Iraq. Had we left Saddam alone he would probably be getting spanked by Iran by now. And we could have killed two birds with no stones but, that is too smart for this administration.

[PaceAdvantage]

intersting ploy Iraq. Kind of like the way magicians and pick pockets master their craft. Make a large plausible diversion (or this case REACT to one) while clandestinely making the rabbit disappear or steal your wallet.

In this case use a national disaster to follow the EXACT format that the neocons had HOPED to accomplish. http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Sneaking it in under the guise of the attack while emotions are high and, by the way, their ETHNICITY was the right one to focus all the anger upon.


Next thing you know, you're going to be posting about 'American Concentration Camps'....I've been reading about those for years on the 'Net (well before Bush got into office mind you). Everything's a conspiracy and you're the smart one who figured it all out....congrats!

[46zilzal]

you mean the rendering program??

[JustRalph]

You guys never read between the lines do you?

Bush didn't need a plan to get out. He wants to stay...........and I agree with him. I hope they build the biggest damn Joint Services base in the world, right in the middle of Iraq. Colin Powell couldn't stomach what it takes to get things done......which means standing up and lying to the people some times. You sometimes have to tell lies to get some things done. I don't condone it. But It is obvious it happens.

You guys never heard of black ops? There are lots of things going on that we don't even know about or could even fathom.

The recent docs that prove that Bin Laden was communicating with Saddam would be enough for me anyway...........there are two or three more countries we should be in by now. I say we are moving way slow.

[46zilzal]

ah yes the old idea of world domination....never worked, never will

[PaceAdvantage]

ah yes the old idea of world domination....never worked, never will

Never say never....

[46zilzal]

thousands of years of recorded history say othewise

[twindouble]

Your ignorance is bursting again. I have no love for Saddam, he was/is a brutal thug. My concern is the ill advised and ill planned invasion of Iraq. Had we left Saddam alone he would probably be getting spanked by Iran by now. And we could have killed two birds with no stones but, that is too smart for this administration.

ljb; Before we go off the deep end with the insults, just keep in mind we more than likey could spend the day at the track and have a good time regardless. We aren't going to solve the world problems anyway, just bitch about it all. Besides I don't think anyone here would qualify as a military strategest. Just me. :lol:


T.D.

[Ponyplayr]

Actions speek louder than words. Bush took the tough road, Powell flew the coop! Simple as that!


T.D.

Powell was in Vietnam,and he knew what to expect when we attempt to FIX a country screwed up by France!

[twindouble]

Powell was in Vietnam,and he knew what to expect when we attempt to FIX a country screwed up by France!

The idea of Colonialism is and always was abhorrent to me, powerful countries raping other countries and enslaving people to boot. Many countries suffered as a result and they had plenty reasons to hate us and others. We don't have those kind of designs on Iraq or any other middle east country.


T.D.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by JustRalph:

...........there are two or three more countries we should be in by now. I say we are moving way slow.JR,
Are you advocating bring back the draft in support of your would-be national offense?

lsbets,
Are you in communication with any servicemen who were draftees and have you found your views compatible with theirs?

[lsbets]

lsbets,
Are you in communication with any servicemen who were draftees and have you found your views compatible with theirs?

There hasn't been a draft in a long, long time. If your question is am I in touch with other soldiers, both enlisted and officer, the answer is yes, most of the folks I talk to reguarly are in the Army. Among those who have been there or are currently there, there is, as with anything, great differences in the views of everyone, but one thing that they all universally say is the media does not present an accurate picture of the story on the ground. Among the guys who haven't gone yet, they continue to volunteer whenever a tasking comes down, and that is after having talked to a lot of guys who have been there. When we get a tasking in my battalion and my brigade, we get more volunteers than are needed, everytime.

[Tom]

thousands of years of recorded history say othewise

WE have only been around for a couple hundred years. :kiss:

[Tom]

Powell was in Vietnam,and he knew what to expect when we attempt to FIX a country screwed up by France!:lol:

[Indulto]

Originally posted by lsbets:

Among those who have been there or are currently there, there is, as with anything, great differences in the views of everyone, but one thing that they all universally say is the media does not present an accurate picture of the story on the ground. Among the guys who haven't gone yet, they continue to volunteer whenever a tasking comes down, and that is after having talked to a lot of guys who have been there. When we get a tasking in my battalion and my brigade, we get more volunteers than are needed, everytime.lsbets,

I’m sure you and they are correct. I was bed-ridden during the entire Watergate hearings and watched every minute of televised testimony. At that time, ABC, CBS, and NBC all broadcast the news in different time slots. I would watch all three give different slants to the same utterances, and then wonder if they had been observing the same event I had.

These young people who volunteer knowing what’s ahead are indeed special. How do you feel about Powell’s advice against going to war and do most other soldiers agree?

[lsbets]

I don't see Powell's advice as having been against going - it was to be prepared to deal with what comes after we roll over Saddam's army. I believe Powell has stated that going into Iraq was the right thing to do, and he was right when he said its up to us to fix it if we go in and break it.

[twindouble]

I don't see Powell's advice as having been against going - it was to be prepared to deal with what comes after we roll over Saddam's army. I believe Powell has stated that going into Iraq was the right thing to do, and he was right when he said its up to us to fix it if we go in and break it.

His statement, you break it you own it was prior to him giving his speech at the UN on Iraq's WMD. He was for containment of Saddam in this war and even prior to the first Gulf War, if he had his way Saddam would still be Kuwait. He's a dove with 4 stars.


T.D.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by twindouble:

His statement, you break it you own it was prior to him giving his speech at the UN on Iraq's WMD. He was for containment of Saddam in this war and even prior to the first Gulf War, if he had his way Saddam would still be Kuwait. He's a dove with 4 stars.TD,

I just knew our romance was ill-fated.

H&M1

[JustRalph]

JR,
Are you advocating bring back the draft in support of your would-be national offense?

yes............any other questions?

[Indulto]

Originally posted by JustRalph:

yes............any other questions?JR,

Is that your answer to welfare, unemployment, and illegal immigration?

[twindouble]

[QUOTE=Indulto]TD,

I just knew our romance was ill-fated.

Come on now, I voted for Bush just because he latched on to Powell and Channey. I was at that time looking forward to Powell running for president.

He would still make a good president during peace time. Does that help. :cool:

[Suff]

War sucks. This war is Joke. But as a Gangsta and a Veteran , American and a gereral all around nut.


I say.....keep going ... because these sunsabitchs are playing TV and I hate TV.

One more year. I will give this one more year. I will not back off road side bombs....and I pray to God for every American Gladiator that dies that way.

This is a tough thing. But I now propaganda. I despise this war and Georg Bush. But I think these filthy bastards have a general sense that we are weak in the knees.

Meet me in the alley. I'll show you a knee.

The whole thing is tearing me up.

[Suff]

JR,

Is that your answer to welfare, unemployment, and illegal immigration?

JR ..............................................way right. like hard to understand.

[ljb]

ljb; Before we go off the deep end with the insults, just keep in mind we more than likey could spend the day at the track and have a good time regardless. We aren't going to solve the world problems anyway, just bitch about it all. Besides I don't think anyone here would qualify as a military strategest. Just me. :lol:


T.D.
I have no problem with excluding insults. And I agree with you except the part about military strategest. ;)

[JustRalph]

JR,

Is that your answer to welfare, unemployment, and illegal immigration?

No.

[lsbets]

JR,
Are you advocating bring back the draft in support of your would-be national offense?


Without starting a new thread - does it bother anyone else that 500,000 illegal immigrants had a rally in LA waving Mexican flags and there wasn't a massive police presence rounding them up and deporting them?

[twindouble]

Without starting a new thread - does it bother anyone else that 500,000 illegal immigrants had a rally in LA waving Mexican flags and there wasn't a massive police presence rounding them up and deporting them?

The interesting thing I only recently found out was the number illegal Irish that have been here right along, to tune of 50,000 or more. This is a tough problem to solve for a nation that was built on immigration and breaking the laws. This isn't just a Mexican problem.

The only thing I can come up with is give those that are here the means to become legit, if they don't register round them up and send them home, at the same time secure our borders. You'll find those that don't register are low life criminals anyway. Regardless of what's done we have to find out who's who for our national security. Heck if it wasn't for illegal Chinese, it would have taken another 100 years to lay track across this country. Plus historically the rich and powerful built their fortunes by breaking the laws, Joe Kennedy was a bootlegger and his son got to president by paying off the mob. So it's a joke when anyone takes the high ground and says this is a country laws that should be inforced. We ignored the problem for years never inforcing those laws because it was cheep slave labor. Freaking hypocrites!

[Tom]

Without starting a new thread - does it bother anyone else that 500,000 illegal immigrants had a rally in LA waving Mexican flags and there wasn't a massive police presence rounding them up and deporting them?

Missed a GOLDEN opportunity. What a sad day for America when 500,000 law breaking SOBs shut down a US city to protest our wantinig to enforce our laws and protect our borders. And where was Bush? Where was Chenney? Wehere the HELL was everyone? This country is in sad, sick shape. Our government has abandoned us - the USA is no longer a nation of law - it is a joke. It is no longer a great nation. It is dying, and no one gives a ****.

A half a million illegal crimninals take to the streets and no one has the balls to stand up to them. Bring home the troops.......we have already lost the war on terror. I would not serve this country after yesterday. I would not serve this shell of a president, this traitor.
the next terror attack on this soil...don't come crying to me, - we friggen get what we deserve.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by twindouble:

So it's a joke when anyone takes the high ground and says this is a country laws that should be inforced. We ignored the problem for years never inforcing those laws because it was cheep slave labor. Freaking hypocrites!TD,
Just when I think you reverted to the Dark Side, you show flashes of fairmindedness.

Originally posted by lsbets:

. . . does it bother anyone else that 500,000 illegal immigrants had a rally in LA waving Mexican flags and there wasn't a massive police presence rounding them up and deporting them?lsbets,
Sure it bothers me, but unless they also arrest their employers, what’s the point? There’d be another 500,000 here in a couple of months after we spent million$ processing the first batch.

Does it bother you that corruption starts right in the heart of rural America? To paraphrase General Electric, greed and exploitation are important to harvest most of our produce.

H&M1

[Indulto]

Originally posted by Tom:

Our government has abandoned us - the USA is no longer a nation of law - it is a joke. It is no longer a great nation. It is dying, and no one gives a ****.

A half a million illegal crimninals take to the streets and no one has the balls to stand up to them. Bring home the troops.......we have already lost the war on terror.
Tom,
Our troops are dying, and no one gives a ****.

Borrowing an idea from a friend on another board, how about drafting those .5 mil and sending then to Iraq to unite the Sunnis and Shiites. Or, we could send them to Afghanistan without training and turn Afghan farmers into drug lords.

Meanwhile, our troops would have to return and harvest our crops or nobody would eat (except at Carls Jr.). If the troops won't volunteer for that kind of action, we'll know for certain the illegals are "taking jobs Americans don't want."

[twindouble]

TD,
Just when I think you reverted to the Dark Side, you show flashes of fairmindedness.

Like I said, liberal thinking should always be part of our way of life, it's democratic in my way of thinking. That don't mean I think the government has the responsibility to look after or support every lazy ass that exists, tell me how to raise my kids, feed and house those that have no regard for life, teaching kindergarten kids about aids, abusing the right to free speech by burring our kids with smut at the same time presenting woman as objects to abuse, sewing the seeds of violence in our youth in everything they watch, play with or listen to, to me it's no different than the temples of hate and destruction in the middle east. Want me to go on?

T.D.

[Ponyplayr]

Tom,

Meanwhile, our troops would have to return and harvest our crops or nobody would eat (except at Carls Jr.). If the troops won't volunteer for that kind of action, we'll know for certain the illegals are "taking jobs Americans don't want."

We don' have to round them up to get them to leave.If we shut off their ability to transfer money from the US to Mexico via Western Union ect.They will have no incentive to stay or come here.
If the Feds can shut down money transfer from Visa ect.to offshore gambling,then they should be able to do this.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by twindouble:

Want me to go on?Could I stop you?

I agree with you and that’s why I object to broad-brush labeling.

That don't mean I think the government has the responsibility to look after or support every lazy ass that exists, …That’s corruption and fraud, not liberalism.

. . . abusing the right to free speech by burring our kids with smut at the same time presenting woman as objects to abuse, sewing the seeds of violence in our youth in everything they watch, play with or listen to . . .More conservative action by the courts is indeed warranted here.


. . . feed and house those that have no regard for life . . .
Terrorism will change liberal-to-moderate thinking in this regard: There is no protection against those who do not value life after birth, and especially those who don’t even value their own. Criminal rehabilitation is an oxymoron, at least in today’s prisons which teach and enable even worse criminal behavior including terrorism. Gangs need to be viewed and treated as urban terrorists. The penalty for supporting any terrorist is to risk the same threat of destruction they are enabling since awareness eliminates innocence. That said, profiteering from internal or external wars on terrorism deserves similar treatment.

[twindouble]

Quote:
That don't mean I think the government has the responsibility to look after or support every lazy ass that exists, …
That’s corruption and fraud, not liberalism. Quote indulto;

I beg to differ on that point, all through the 60's and 70's we had so many liberal social welfare programs going there was no incentive to work for the lower class, their game was to use whatever government program state or Federal so they could sit on their ass.

As it stands now we could do away with the majority of those programs and everyone would be better off.

Not only that the grants programs state and federal are a joke. You or I could get a hefty sum to study why people pick their nose and not blow it. :bang:

T.D.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by Ponyplayr;

We don' have to round them up to get them to leave.If we shut off their ability to transfer money from the US to Mexico via Western Union ect.They will have no incentive to stay or come here.
If the Feds can shut down money transfer from Visa ect.to offshore gambling,then they should be able to do this.PP,
Do you happen to know for certain what percentage of illegals use these facilities?

The are here because :
1)They are able to obtain employment
2)The government does not want to deport them because it ignores the greed and corruption of the growers because it thinks it will keep food prices low and IMO because it believes that going after employers will create a voting backlash (both Reps and Dems).
3)The government only pays lip service to the threat of terrorists crossing the border.
4)The government deports rather than punishes illegals who commit crimes here (beyond entering, that is).

What we save in food is probably offset by our increasing housing costs, medical costs and auto insurance costs among others.

Absent any smiley face option for tongue-in-cheek, in the future I will add TIC at the end of all my applicable posts.

[Tom]

Quote:
That don't mean I think the government has the responsibility to look after or support every lazy ass that exists, …
That’s corruption and fraud, not liberalism. Quote indulto;

I beg to differ on that point, all through the 60's and 70's we had so many liberal social welfare programs going there was no incentive to work for the lower class, their game was to use whatever government program state or Federal so they could sit on their ass.

As it stands now we could do away with the majority of those programs and everyone would be better off.

Not only that the grants programs state and federal are a joke. You or I could get a hefty sum to study why people pick their nose and not blow it. :bang:

T.D.

Funny, BIg Head Ted Kennedy said yesteray that we have thrown billions of dollars at border security in the last decade and gotten nothing for it - so we should do nothing rather do the wrong thing.

Wonder if he forgot about the TRILLIONS we have thrown at poverty over the last four decades and gotten nothing for it?

[Indulto]

Originally posted by twindouble:

I beg to differ on that point, all through the 60's and 70's we had so many liberal social welfare programs going there was no incentive to work for the lower class, their game was to use whatever government program state or Federal so they could sit on their ass.TD,
Begging does not become you, and I'll bet you're sitting on your ass right now.

If that’s not fraud, how do you define the term?


You or I could get a hefty sum to study why people pick their nose and not blow it. Not me, I’d blow it. Besides some of my best selections were obtained through nasal excavation or navel intelligence (contemplation).

[twindouble]

TD,
Begging does not become you, and I'll bet you're sitting on your ass right now.:lol:

If that’s not fraud, how do you define the term?

Great, it's good to know you have a sense of humor.

[Ponyplayr]

Indulto....Here is one source....30 Billion per year.

http://vdare.com/rubenstein/remittance.htm

[Indulto]

Originally posted by twindouble:

Great, it's good to know you have a sense of humor.You finally noticed? Sheesh.

I guess Tom and toe have really set the bar pretty high

[Indulto]

Originally posted by Ponyplayr:

Indulto....Here is one source....30 Billion per year.

http://vdare.com/rubenstein/remittance.htm
PP (http://vdare.com/rubenstein/remittance.htm),
Thanks for the link. If Tom hasn’t read it, I don’t want to be around when he does, even though it’s almost 2 years old.

[skate]

ecaroff;


seems odd that someone would think of your post as "trivializing deaths".

i do think "perspective" is proper. and just.

if the press and those in congress can not see the harm they do (giving the enemy comfort and hope), by cheering for the retreat of our military, they ignore the facts to favor themselves, on the death of our soldiers, by prolonging the war.

skate

[Tom]

PP[/url],
Thanks for the link. If Tom hasn’t read it, I don’t want to be around when he does, even though it’s almost 2 years old.;)