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View Full Version : Same Theme Repeated-People Want Formful Races, But Why?


Koko
03-14-2006, 06:47 PM
I've heard that numerous times recently since being here and of course this isn't the first time I've heard such sentiments expressed naturally.

I believe that there is a fallacy in believing that formful is necessarily good.
It's good for some but not others. First let me throw a definition on the word "formful" for our immediate use. Let's say that it means that the horses whose positive attributes are fairly obvious perform well and vice versa. Who does that help? That helps the people who employ fairly obvious criteria to handicap horses because their horses tend to come in. Of course one could argue, if the majority of bettors is of this mindset, then the prices are not going to be too pretty but they'll cash a certain number of tickets.

The people who benefit from "non-formful" performances are the contrarians who are on to angles, factors what have you that are not widely perceived and used, therefore the obvious, loved by the form-loving crowd horses are definitely not the place to be as certain relatively hidden factors no doubt perform even better than they do at "formful" tracks.

So if you're someone who is generally a contrarian and betting against the horses with the pretty PP's then you want chaos, you want wacko results, you want confusion and so forth because that is far more likely to favor you than the formful more chalky type players.

I believe a great analogy is pre-season NFL betting. You'll hear a majority of players (even the ones that bet it) lacking great confiidence in pre-season handicapping. Oh who knows, no way to figure it out and such are the kinds of things people will say. In essence, what they're saying is that it's not "formful". In other words the basic fundamental analysis proves quite unreliable because less obvious factors become more meaningful. Factors that are less easily measured by MOST handicappers. For those specialists in less commonly used factors that prove relevant to pre-season activity, the nonformfulness is a huge blessing.

So to conclude, if you're using the more widely applied factors you might want formfulness but you're the type of player who, if you win, will be grinding it out, because you rely on factors that are the more obvious.

If you're a contrarian, value player, etc., you'll naturally want to avoid formful results like the plague, because that is in essence saying that the players with the common approaches are getting their tickets cashed regularly, even if not on a profitable basis.

NO FORMFUL RESULTS FOR ME PLEASE.

twindouble
03-14-2006, 08:26 PM
Koko, what your calling formful is nothing more than looking at the speed in the race, influenced by the Beyer figures and other speed and pace software wagering. To me speed and pace are not the only factors to consider in your handicapping. It's not contrarian to handicap a race weighing all the factors that are presented to you.






T.D.

Koko
03-14-2006, 08:37 PM
Koko, what your calling formful is nothing more than looking at the speed in the race, influenced by the Beyer figures and other speed and pace software wagering. To me speed and pace are not the only factors to consider in your handicapping. It's not contrarian to handicap a race weighing all the factors that are presented to you.

T.D.

T.D.,

Contrarian implys doing something contrary to the crowd. Holistic (if that's how you might phrase it) handicapping is probably not nearly as popular as speed oriented approaches although I can't break out a study to prove such.
Therefore, although a holistic view of the race is natural to a thoughtful handicapper such as yourself it's probably not the most popular approach.

So, I would say, looking at factors that might be relevant and indeed quite profitable, but not ones that point out 40% winners but rather winners at say a 15% clip, are likely to be by definition contrarian. I take it that's what you do, look for factors that are overlooked by the number crazy crowd.

Therefore, when examining results by expected performance based on previous speed only, formful results would probably be those where the past speed repeated the most expected performances, whereas unformful results would probably be those that rewarded the backers and analysts who favored less common factors.

twindouble
03-14-2006, 09:11 PM
T.D.,

Contrarian implys doing something contrary to the crowd. Holistic (if that's how you might phrase it) handicapping is probably not nearly as popular as speed oriented approaches although I can't break out a study to prove such.
Therefore, although a holistic view of the race is natural to a thoughtful handicapper such as yourself it's probably not the most popular approach.

So, I would say, looking at factors that might be relevant and indeed quite profitable, but not ones that point out 40% winners but rather winners at say a 15% clip, are likely to be by definition contrarian. I take it that's what you do, look for factors that are overlooked by the number crazy crowd.

Therefore, when examining results by expected performance based on previous speed only, formful results would probably be those where the past speed repeated the most expected performances, whereas unformful results would probably be those that rewarded the backers and analysts who favored less common factors.

Just by reading your posts, I'm sure as heck not going to get into a word fight with you. :) I'll just say what I do like I said many times is traditional
handicapping.


T.D.

Ron
03-14-2006, 10:42 PM
...then you want chaos, you want wacko results, you want confusion and so forth because that is far more likely to favor you ...

I think you're misunderstanding people. Nobody wants races "formful". We want races "more" formful. There is no way to handicap the extreme -- choas, wacko and confusion.

Koko
03-14-2006, 10:57 PM
I think you're misunderstanding people. Nobody wants races "formful". We want races "more" formful. There is no way to handicap the extreme -- choas, wacko and confusion.

OK, Let me be a bit more clear Ron, and I'm not sure what exactly you're pointing to either so maybe you can clarify what you're saying as well.
When I say formful, I'm saying that the races are showing results which tend to reward the people who are betting on generally lower-priced horses. The horses that are attracting money from the more selection based and less value based. The people picking winners with not too much concern with price.

So when I say less formful, I'm talking about results that don't tend to favor those horses or their backers. These results would favor the horses who are showing less obvious positive aspects in the PP's. Perhaps back class, way back maybe, trainer angles, trainer intent, condition change, apparent form darkening. In other words, things that when they work out, which is not ALL that often, pay far more than they should in terms of generating a positive ROI. I hope that clarifies things.

toetoe
03-15-2006, 01:38 AM
I think what at least slightly sophisticated players want is a consistent surface. If speedball quitters are winning all day, we might get bent out of whack if lone speed gets runs down in the nightcap. Darkened form is almost a given and pretty PP's don't quicken the pulse. 'Form' is a poliguous term, like 'pace' or 'speed.'

Ron
03-15-2006, 12:55 PM
OK, Let me be a bit more clear Ron, and I'm not sure what exactly you're pointing to either so maybe you can clarify what you're saying as well.
When I say formful, I'm saying that the races are showing results which tend to reward the people who are betting on generally lower-priced horses. The horses that are attracting money from the more selection based and less value based. The people picking winners with not too much concern with price.

So when I say less formful, I'm talking about results that don't tend to favor those horses or their backers. These results would favor the horses who are showing less obvious positive aspects in the PP's. Perhaps back class, way back maybe, trainer angles, trainer intent, condition change, apparent form darkening. In other words, things that when they work out, which is not ALL that often, pay far more than they should in terms of generating a positive ROI. I hope that clarifies things.

No need to be less polite over semantics...this thread is like a Seinfeld episode. Those conditions you describe aren't chaos and confusion, so you are contradicting yourself. You never said "less" formful in your first post.

Koko
03-15-2006, 01:05 PM
No need to be less polite over semantics...this thread is like a Seinfeld episode. Those conditions you describe aren't chaos and confusion, so you are contradicting yourself. You never said "less" formful in your first post.

OK, so I used "non-formful" as opposed to less formful in my first post. I wouldn't know what the "Seinfeld" reference refers to since I don't watch TV, but I'm sure I'm missing out on some wholesome educational material there.

OK, my reference to chaos and confusion should have read "where the most obvious and overused approaches and tools don't work, i.e. less formful.

Is that clearer and non-contradictory?