Question

[kev]

This on the DRf site.

DRF Simulcast Weekly Poll
Which is best qualified to operate racetracks in New York? [2249 votes total]


Churchill Downs, Inc. (1144) 51%
Empire Racing Associates (150) 7%
Magna Entertainment Corp. (348) 15%
NYRA (607) 27%


Turn over all tracks over to CD.

[cj]

I'd love to know what Churchill has done that is so great.

Go NYRA!

[Murph]

For just one little thing they have done, look to Hoosier Park in my
hometown. Our track would likely be defunct by now had the original
owners not sold to CD. They are operating their corporation profitably.
(currently AFAIK - they have in the past) They have done this while
accuring and maintianing live racing at additional facilities such as
Arlington Park and Fairgrounds.

They created CDSN in an attempt to synchronize and streamline simulcast
racing signals and post times to create better opportunities for us
- the bettors. The comp program for their Twin Spires Club is second to none
in the race track industry.

Churchill Downs investments have had the effect of "saving" the 10K claiming
circut throughout the mid west. These are just a few items that I can cite
offhand. I would suggest that anyone who has a problem with the way CD
runs a horse racing meeting may be kicking the wrong dog.

I prefer the CDSN option for my entertainment as opposed to being
"Magna"tized.

Murph

[NoDayJob]

Amen, Brudder... CD really does a professional job.

[kev]

Looks like alot more people agree with you guys. I'm happy with the way CD is and what they have done for the people coming out to the track. Hell look at on-crowd att. compare with some of the other major tracks on reg. race days. Hoo is a good one to look at, they showed very good profits over there last race season.

[Tom]

CD is a good outfit. Why, they are almost as good as NYRA!

Let's face it, everyone out there lining up is NOT putting on the BEST racing in the country...NYRA is already doing it. Pretenders want a piece of the pie NYRA baked.

[Murph]

Yeah, NYRA provides the top venues and an excellent racing program at several levels. I believe the problem lies in how they have been slicing those baked pies from past seasons!

Honestly Tom, is there a reasonable excuse for driving such a large gambling enterprise into bankruptcy? I never understood what the problems are with the NY state bred racing program. It's always seemed to an outsider that the NYRA was not always the horsemen's best racing partner. The tracks will state that the horsemen present unreasonable demands.

Publicly NO ONE seems to care much about why NYRA finds themselves in this extremely awkward position. I just don't get it. If you want to be the best you have to figure out how to make even just a little money. NYRA has failed the people of New York.

Murph

[Rico8812]

NYRA has failed the people of New York.

Murph, no offense, but you are from Indiana and don't understand the workings of NY State. They have stiffled NYRA for decades. Not one company would be able to succeed with the racing statues that have been in place in NY since the 50's.

Its amazing that NYRA has been able to still put out the best product in the country with their hands basically tied behind their backs.

[mainardi]

Sorry to have to point this out... but any organization that believes Tom Durkin is the best they could do was eventually doomed to fail. :faint:

[PaceAdvantage]

If you want to be the best you have to figure out how to make even just a little money. NYRA has failed the people of New York.

Murph

That's just it Murph. By law, NYRA isn't allowed to make any money.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry to have to point this out... but any organization that believes Tom Durkin is the best they could do was eventually doomed to fail. :faint:

So you're saying Durkin isn't one of the top 2 or 3 announcers in the country? Even if you are saying this it doesn't matter, since I believe liking or disliking an announcer is just one of those peculiar things in life....a highly personal choice that goes either one way or the other....no middle ground.

It's clear though that many, if not most in the industry, consider him one of the best in the country.

[hurrikane]

Unfortunately,
I agree...NYRA is likely the best.

As for CD, put it in perspective. These people in this beautiful part of the country breath horses. If you want to be enthralled in the breeding, raising, living the life of a horse owner, this is where you live.

If you can't make a track work in KY you shouldn't be in racing.

[toetoe]

By Mainardi's logic, all of a sudden GGF have the best operation going, thanks to Michael W.

I'm not sure what Murph's motives are, but it's scaring me that so many people want McRacetrack. Won't it be a wonderful world when we have one newspaper (DRF? :eek: ), one racetrack operator, one world government, one Starship Federation?

[Valuist]

I see how Arlington has gone downhill since CD acquired it. Hollywood is loaded with short fields, same w/Calder although at least they got some sense down there and will be cutting back racing dates. Some of the changes I've seen at Arlington have been raising the admission to $6, lengthy times between races, eliminating the race replay library, and not wanting to compete w/big brother CD for top barns. I don't see any of those as positives.

[Ron]

Sorry to have to point this out... but any organization that believes Tom Durkin is the best they could do was eventually doomed to fail. :faint:

Who is the best?

[Murph]

Murph, no offense, but you are from Indiana and don't understand the workings of NY State. They have stiffled NYRA for decades. Not one company would be able to succeed with the racing statues that have been in place in NY since the 50's.


That's a good point Ric. As PA noted, I fail to remember that NYRA is a
not for profit organiztaion. That is only the beginning of my misunderstanding
of NY racing. As a handicapper, NYRA cannot be ignored considering the effect
NY purse values have on the entire industry. I just don't understand what
is really happening there, nor the political circumstances that lead to some of
their decisions. Believe me when I say I have tried to learn more.

And toe?!? Going from supporting Churchill Downs to advocating one world
government? I don't think either me or CD are all that bad. ;)


One the benefits I might recieve from posting here is a better understanding of NY racing.
I've never attended live racing at a NY venue. That would be a good place to start.
:ThmbUp:

Murph

[Rico8812]

I've never attended live racing at a NY venue. That would be a good place to start.

If you can swing it, I highly recommend a trip to Saratoga this summer. It truely is a horseplayers' heaven.

[toetoe]

Just call me S-T-R-E-T-C-H.

[mainardi]

So you're saying Durkin isn't one of the top 2 or 3 announcers in the country? Even if you are saying this it doesn't matter, since I believe liking or disliking an announcer is just one of those peculiar things in life....a highly personal choice that goes either one way or the other....no middle ground.

It's clear though that many, if not most in the industry, consider him one of the best in the country.
As for my Durkin comment... I know that this topic got worn out in a long ago thread... and you're absolutely right about it being a highly personal choice. I just listen to some of his calls and wonder what race he's watching. Durkin and Trevor Denman (who I happen to like) are both in that love-hate category... 'nuff said.

So, given that I'm not a Durkin fan, I used that as an example. More to the point, I really believe that when you read about some of the corruption stories swirling around the current NYRA ownership, it's tough for me to support them keeping it. Of course, maybe I don't understand how things work in New York, living out here on the Laid-Back Coast. :cool:

[PaceAdvantage]

The NYRA thing has been beaten to death on this board. The bottom line is, there are certain people in NY State government who are obviously in bed with certain other individuals wishing to see NYRA go down.....so.....you get what we had here these past couple of years....which is the way they want it....well, they got it! (apologies to Strother Martin)

They found the best thing they could find (which in the end, wasn't really all that much) -- some tellers cheating on their taxes and a couple of management types that looked the other way....so instead of firing the people involved, and sending the tax cheats to jail, they decide to indict the entire company....:lol:

OK....makes lots of sense. Had nothing to do with the integrity of the racing, or the quality of the racing, or anything to do with the racing AT ALL, but indict the entire corporation why don't you? Good move. I guess it makes sense if your goal is to have them removed in time for your buds to come in when the video slots roll into town.....SLICK!

Then after that, a couple of other trumped up charges arrive....anything from a maitre d' accepting tips for better tables in a crowded restaurant (HEAVEN FORBID!) to a clerk of scales supposedly letting jockeys ride overweight (but there is much dispute as to whether or not certain allowances that should have been taken into account by investigators, were actually taken into account....it's funny how you haven't heard a PEEP about this case since it went down....that's because most likely, THERE IS NO CASE!)

Let's see, am I forgetting anything? Oh yeah, as NYRA (mind you, a not-for-profit corporation) is swamped with legal bills defending itself from these charges, certain other financial obligations were strained....I believe they borrowed from the horsemen's account (since paid in full). Then you had the supposedly fixed race with A One Rocket and Greg Martin....and dontcha just love how this was handled in the press:

Thoroughbred trainer Greg Martin, along with a prominent harness driver and a mob-tied bettor, allegedly tried to fix a Dec. 18, 2003, race by slipping the horse a potent performance-boosting concoction just before post time.

The mixture -impossible to detect in Aqueduct's post-race drug tests - helped the little-known horse, A One Rocket, blaze out of the gate to win by an amazing 10 lengths.....

"They doped a horse to ensure that the horse would win," said Benjamin Gruenstein, an assistant U.S. attorney. "This is not a one-time deal. This is something that was happening regularly."

Just before the horse is to run, a mixture of baking soda, sugar and sports drink is poured through the horse's nose and down its throat.
The potent mixture does not include any banned drugs that might turn up in a post-race urine test.

But veterinarians say it slows or stops the release of toxins into the horse's bloodstream, preventing it from tiring as it pounds down the backstretch.

Don't you love that? All of a sudden, milk-shaking is now synonymous with "doping" even though no illegal drugs are used. Baking soda, sugar, and "sports drink." Nah, nobody's gunning for NYRA, right? Never mind that milkshake testing was basically unheard of nationwide at the time....

Has NYRA been 100% good as a company over the years? Of course not...what company really has? They all have their warts. However, they never really let it affect the product they were putting out, and they never really lost the support of the people putting on that show with them....

Even when NYRA was accused of borrowing the horsemen's $$$, there was never any strike by horsemen at the entry box. They never publicly called for NYRA's end. As a matter of fact, I am often struck by the fact that the horsemen that run at NYRA have never really been critical of NYRA in the press. Sure there's the odd interview with folks like Violette and Bomze, but even those are fairly tame, given the fact that NYRA is supposed to be the DEVIL when it comes to racetrack management....

So the bottom line remains: the current crew running the show at NYRA isn't "buddy buddy" with the current crew running NY State politics. Bad timing in the fact that some major $$$ is about to come to town in the form of video slots. The crew running politics (and thus, running NYRA) wants their own buds to come in and run the show (and by buds, I mean the folks who have kissed enough ass and greased enough palms...that is still to be determined publicly).

Never mind NYRA has been putting on arguably the best racing show on earth for the past half-century plus. That will get thrown out with the baby AND the bathwater if certain politicos have their way....

[toetoe]

Agreed that the less buddy-buddy, the more likely we can run our businesses like adults.

[aaron]

Pace-
Nothing personal,but you must already work for NYRA or would like to work for them.
I am not adverse to NYRA keeping its franchise,but for them to keep the franchise don't you think some changes should be made ? Don't you think that some how all the state otb's and NYRA should be under one umbrella ?
This is what NYRA gave up some 30 years ago.
Also, what does NYRA do for the people who actually attend their races ? They have made Aqueduct a ghost town.Should they not be held accountable ?
I agree the racing is still as good as any racing being conducted anywhere,but the quaility is not as good as it used to be.Even Saratoga,other than the big stake races is not much different from racing at Belmont.
The new and inferior betting machines have been beaten to death,so there is no need to further discuss them.
I don't know if a change from NYRA would be positive.I do know that if you took a poll of the patrons at the track most would question the job NYRA has done.
There are many high paid executives who over the years have stood by and let NYRA detoriate.
Who was responsiable for Kenny Noe ? Who forced out Barry Schwartz,the last person to get the takeout reduced ?

[PaceAdvantage]

Changes need to made all around, there's no question about that....where did I say everything should remain as is?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't like carpetbaggers. I don't want to see someone come from out of state and take over an operation they know nothing about.

Keep it in NY, with NY guys at the helm, who are familar with NY racing...that's all I'm saying.

What advantage is Stronach going to bring? He can't even keep his top executives around for longer than a year or two, and his company has failed to grow...stock price is STAGNANT....company is in debt up to its eyeballs. Now he's so desperate, he's calling for a partnership (him and Churchill) to run NY racing....yeah, THAT'S going to work....I would guess Stronach got an "F" in the "Works well with others" section of his grade school report card....now he wants to partner up? :lol:

Of course NYRA as it now stands needs to be overhauled because the present setup (not-for-profit corporation) doesn't work financially.

[Stevie Belmont]

Sorry to have to point this out... but any organization that believes Tom Durkin is the best they could do was eventually doomed to fail. :faint:

What a pathetic statement.

[aaron]

Pace-
I agree changes need to be made,but somehow no matter what changes are made the player will probably be ignored and the take out will probably go up.
A good start in making changes would probably be to include Steve Crist in the decision making.After all who is more familar with the in's and out's of NY racing.

[Rico8812]

Uh, Steve Crist already ran NYRA and it didn't work out very well.

As far as your takeout statement, NYRA has been the biggest champion in the entire industry for lower takeout. Its OTB and Albany that want to raise the take. And your naive if you don't realize that once a 'for profit' company such as ERA or Magna is running things in NY the first thing they will do is raise the takeout.

[mainardi]

Again, just my opinions (at the regional level):
NYRA - bad timing, press has nothing better to do (sensationalism)
SoCal - short-fields (real problems are expenses like workmen's comp rates) :mad:
SoFLA - declining quality of racing (end was near when they allowed competing dates and drove Hialeah out of business) :(
Chi-town - Hasn't been a major player since Arlington burned down in 1985
NoCal - puhleez... Russell Baze has ruined everything! :rolleyes:
Kentucky - too much focus on Derby Day... they should be better
All others - just not relevant

BTW... debating the race-callers is off-topic... I was being semi-sarcastic about it earlier in this thread -- I do have a personal dislike for his race calling, but that's a sidebar that's also been beaten to death in other threads -- so let's get back to the topic.

[ezpace]

used to be great..NYRA should write training

manuals for the rest .

CD still doesn't have a "test barn" do they??

They have to keep the stud fees price up.

You can't have to many horse drugged investigation articles. A Real fickle

place it is

. I still want 10 gamblers to walk into the stewards office at CD after **ANY** race there and say : WE WANT OUR OWN URINE SAMPLE from the Winner. LOL!!! they would crap their pants.EVERY Race day morning trainers are lined up for the ""right"" VET's services .. seen it to many times..

[Indulto]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage:

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't like carpetbaggers. I don't want to see someone come from out of state and take over an operation they know nothing about.

Keep it in NY, with NY guys at the helm, who are familar with NY racing...that's all I'm saying.PA,
Does this translate into support for Empire Racing Associates?

Thank you for stating the NYRA case so well. Bottom line, the NYRA product remained the most attractive for horseplayers nationwide. So far, there seems to be mixed feelings among the horsemen and the breeders.

IMO the NYRA with proper revisions both to funding its operation and the racing laws combined with sensible, knowledgeable oversight is still preferable to any other alternative presented so far. One can only hope that Pataki's successor will see things more constructively.

Regarding the CDI lead in the DRF poll, I wonder how many of that persuasion were familiar with the Hollywood Park experience before and after its acquisition by CDI.

Everyone is concerned with preserving Saratoga, but I don't hear much of the same for Belmont.

[aaron]

Rico-
Steve Crist was not in charge of NYRA.Kenny Noe was in charge of NYRA during Crist's tenure.With Noe, in charge Crist was working with his hands tied.
I think Crist should have a voice on the future of NY racing,not necessarily be put in charge of NYRA.

[weegee]

PA,
Everyone is concerned with preserving Saratoga, but I don't hear much of the same for Belmont.

Then let me be the first to say, "Leave Belmont alone!" I love Belmont and I find it a much more pleasant experience than Saratoga, where I can barely catch a live glimpse of a horse through the crowd. The inside of the grandstand has a lot of unused space, it's true, but the outside is a great place to spend an afternoon. With the vultures circling, especially those who think another shopping mall is just what racing needs (and who wouldn't come out to beautiful Belmont to shop at yet another Banana Republic and Sunglass Hut?), the whole place is endangered. In terms of racing history, Belmont ranks right up there with Saratoga, and maybe a little higher. I have the application to get it listed as a National Historic Site, but I'd need help getting the information requested on the forms. (hint, hint - if anyone is interested)

[aaron]

weegee,
I agree with you,Belmont is probably the best track in the country.The Saratoga experience is great,but just for going to the track there is no better place than Belmont.

[kev]

That's sort of like CD and KEE I like CD alot better than KEE. It's hard getting around at KEE sometimes with so many people and so little space. CD has big crowds but there's room to move around.

[Indulto]

DRF is full of interesting stuff today.

thelittleguy sure called this on:

Friends official has ties to EmpireBy MATT HEGARTY 03/17/2006
http://www.drf.com/news/article/72900.html (http://www.drf.com/news/article/72900.html)

“Tim Smith, the former executive director of the nonprofit group Friends of New York Racing, has confirmed that he acted as an adviser to Empire Racing Associates, the for-profit company whose formation was announced a week ago with the goal of lobbying for changes in racing law and ultimately bidding on the franchise held by the New York Racing Association. . . .”

“. . . Smith said that he is not an investor in the group, but he also said that he is not barred from becoming an investor in the future. . . .”

“. . . Hayward said that Smith's appearance has reinforced suspicions that Friends, which was dissolved last week after releasing a model-racing law, had been set up to advance the agenda of venture capitalists who want to profit from slot machines at Aqueduct and possibly at Belmont. . . .”

Some very interesting opinions -- two conflicting viewpoints have been italicsized:

Letters to the editorBy DRF READERS 03/17/2006
http://www.drf.com/news/article/72873.html (http://www.drf.com/news/article/72873.html)

Horsemen want their views part of N.Y. future

“. . . To me, a partnership of a reconstituted and restructured NYRA, together with the interests of owners, trainers, and breeders, creates the most powerful entity and the most compelling group to ensure that racing will prosper in New York, which is why I am so disappointed when NYRA suggests that it has been betrayed by the horsemen, who it believes should be grateful that NYRA hasn't cut racing days or purses while it bleeds money. NYRA should acknowledge and respect the fact that it owes its continued existence and ability to vie for the franchise, in part, to the fact that the state's horsemen have stood by them cooperatively through very difficult times. . . .”

'Biased' bettors foot racing's bills

“. . . What everyone needs to realize, however, is that the jockeys and the horses are there because of the betting, not the other way around.”

Franchise's top priority should be horses' well-being

“. . . I am sympathetic to the plight of the New York Racing Association, which must operate under onerous legislative constraints.

. . . We all want the same thing. Those horsemen who support the Empire Racing Associates plan will do so because the group shares our views regarding the future of racing.

Other horsemen will embrace alternative proposals and should be free to choose without repercussions. We live in a country that encourages the type of competition envisioned in the pursuit of the New York franchise.

Multiple views, approaches, plans, etc. will likely improve the end result.

. . . A well-designed business model integrating racing, casinos, and, possibly, the offtrack betting corporations, can produce high-quality, safe, year-round racing. . . .”