Delmar and Keenland go Polytrack

[michiken]

It looks like this rubber racing surface is inevitible.....

Delmar and Keenland go Polytrack (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20060310-9999-7m10track.html)

[Stevie Belmont]

Simply hate it.

[Tom]

Gary Stevens today, on TVG, said he had ridden over TP and what appears to be kick back on TV is actually a pwder, snow like in reality - you see it, but don't feel it. Taht is why, he thought, turf horses were doing so god on it - they dislike the dirt hitting them, but this stuff doesn't sting them. Makes sense.

But that cloud - have to wonder what it is and what effects it will have long term on lungs and such.

[46zilzal]

Gary Stevens today, on TVG, said he had ridden over TP and what appears to be kick back on TV is actually a pwder, snow like in reality - you see it, but don't feel it. Taht is why, he thought, turf horses were doing so god on it - they dislike the dirt hitting them, but this stuff doesn't sting them. Makes sense.

But that cloud - have to wonder what it is and what effects it will have long term on lungs and such.
oh crap no more front runners.

[46zilzal]

It looks like this rubber racing surface is inevitible.....

Delmar and Keenland go Polytrack (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20060310-9999-7m10track.html)
at Woodbine too by July

[fouroneone]

Love it!

Better for the horses! Finally america is catching up with the rest of the world (as usal, better late than never!)

[toetoe]

:ThmbDown:

[lsbets]

If any track could keep a speed bias with Polytrack, it will be Keeneland. Damn I'll miss that dirt there - as far as I'm concerned that was the easiest track to handicap. I wish they ran there year round.

[46zilzal]

horses should run on dirt

[Indulto]

Originally posted by 46zilzal :

horses should run on dirtAnd horses euthanized after breaking down in dirt races should be buried in the infield.

[46zilzal]

And horses euthanized after breaking down in dirt races should be buried in the infield.
yes horses breakdown more on the dirt

[BIG49010]

Anybody know if they could put this down, can they run Harness Horses over it also, at say Hawthore or Meadowlands?

I had a horse breakdown at Hawthorne a few years ago, and I never liked the thought of running over that hard surface for Harness, when the track would get sloppy. I thought it was dangerous for a horse, when they go thur the slop, and hit that hard surface under it.

[rrbauer]

What's that term? A new paradigm? There are lots of creative minds who hang out at this board who should relish the challenge and opportunity that handicapping for the polytrack surface will provide. C'mon folks, bitching and moaning won't give you an edge; all that does is make you like Andy Beyer who is destined to land in dinosaursville....now digging down to the new handicapping factors and how to apply them: That works!

[46zilzal]

should follow up on what I wrote to another racing board:"Change, even the IDEA of change, is such a foreign concept to people that given the opportunity to try something different or stay EXACTLY the same, the vast majority would not even attempt to consider ANTHING other than what they have done all along. This is just simple human nature that I have contended with it for years in my practice. it is such a pervasive thing that the same idea (resistance to change) is even in the Declaration of Independence: "all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

[toetoe]

My thing is that change is welcome, WHEN WARRANTED. You don't change your name, your wife, your job, just because ... CHANGE IS GOOD, SO SAITH THE LORD, HALLELUJAH!

The millions of dollars involved in these projects make me believe some nice pork-filled gravy trains are involved here. Was Astroturf installed for the sake of the players? I'll never believe the welfare of the horses is the top priority here.

As to the admonitions to get over it, fine. If we can't change it, as big boys and girls we should adjust. That's no excuse for expanding the issue to the general platitudes of "change is good, what a wonderful opportunity to lose our shirts while we learn how to handicap all over, dissenters are not nice boys and girls, etc." Let's keep it simple. I say it sucks real bad, some say it's actually positive, but whereas I don't impugn the proponents' motives --- I just think they're gullible, and maybe I'm wrong, --- we opponents get a bad rap because people forget that DISSENT is good, too. And please don't come with the "you talk, but you don't do anything" line of attack. That's one the yes-men with rose-colored glasses are always exempt from. The first step to correcting something, or in this case preventing needless "correction," is speaking up.

[46zilzal]

this relates to "reactive" adpatation to another change one has NOTHING to do with. You and I cannot CHANGE the track's decisions, so we are FORCED to adapt.

[RXB]

Toetoe, every time this subject is raised you compare Polytrack with Astroturf.

Astroturf was thin carpet on top of cement, thus hard on the joints. Dirt surfaces are more like Astroturf than Polytrack, which would be more comparable to FieldTurf (a huge improvement over Astroturf).

[Indulto]

I'm not against further Polytrak deployment, but if dirt is deemed responsible for excessive breakdowns in California, why don't they also occur with equal frequency in New York? Or aren't they as forthcoming with the related statistics since the NYRA has no money anyway?

[toetoe]

I'm just using the example to cast doubt on motives here, I guess. I don't doubt it's a big, warm fuzzy, happy surface, but we should run them on foam rubber if we want to obviate all injury, human and equine. :)

[Indulto]

TT,

Would "singular" track owners who converted to such surfaces be considered "Rubber Barons?"

[toetoe]

I certainly did not intend to foam-ent such pun-ishment. I must a-poly-gize to all readers.

This just in: Soylent Green discovered to be kind to horses' hooves. Furthermore, Soylent Green is ... PEOPLE! :eek:

[hurrikane]

I'm just using the example to cast doubt on motives here, I guess. I don't doubt it's a big, warm fuzzy, happy surface, but we should run them on foam rubber if we want to obviate all injury, human and equine. :)

Yo Toe,
Have you seen the horses hit the stretch at Oaklawn.

Pretty sure they're running on foam rubber over there.. :D

[GlenninOhio]

All well and good that Turfway CEO Bob Elliston cites what appear to be reduced breakdowns in support of poly, but the issue at Turfway, first and foremost, was poly's "all weather" appeal in reducing the number of winter card cancellations - something that was playing havoc with track revenue. And on that basis the poly has been a major success.

Plain and simple they would not have spent $5 million (plus or minus) to redo the surface just to make it safer for the horses. Does anyone feel Harrah's - the slots and casino operator that owns 50% of Turfway - could be persuaded to spend this kind of money for equine health and welfare?

Who owns the other half of Turfway? Keeneland. And Keeneland had already installed poly on their training track, to rave reviews from horsemen. So Turfway was an ideal testing ground for poly ahead of installing it on the Keeneland main course.

Was the benefit of poly to the horses a major factor in Keeneland's thinking? I believe so, but also remember that Keeneland owns a piece of the US poly distributor.

I'm not qualified to guess the motivation for going to poly in California, other than it seems you can strike the weather as a factor. One could say that this only leaves the welfare of the horses as a motivator and that may well be the case. But something tells me there's a story behind the story here.

[Turntime]

Stan Bergstein in his DRF article correctly points out that synthetic surfaces were tried before in America. The 'Tartan' track was first tried at The Meadows but began breaking down under the constant pounding of racing. Tropical Park then Calder also tried it but it was soon taken out after numerous complaints by horsemen. This does not appear in the article, but Remington installed 'Equitrack' in 1988 and took it out in 1991 once again after complaints by the horsemen. Bergstein's point was that maybe it would be prudent to give it a few years before mandating that tracks adopt it. Maybe he's right. I understand that it's been very successful in England, but how will it stand up to the almost constant year round racing that some tracks conduct?
If it does come to pass that Polytrack is installed in all the major racecourses in America, some will bitch and moan while others will get busy adapting to the changes and bang out profits in the transition. And used copies of 'The Power of Early Speed' will be selling on ebay for 99 cents.

[Valuist]

Maybe Klein will come out with a new book, "The Power of Late Speed".

[toetoe]

Remington Park is the first I heard of, with Equitrack, I think.

As to Oaklawn, Terry almost always says, "They turn into the short stretch ... " and the closers seem to do fine.

[Indulto]

Originally posted by GlenninOhio (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/member.php?u=2414):

I'm not qualified to guess the motivation for going to poly in California, other than it seems you can strike the weather as a factor. One could say that this only leaves the welfare of the horses as a motivator and that may well be the case. But something tells me there's a story behind the story here.

GIO,

Welcome to the club.

[46zilzal]

Trainers, like fans who bet on the horses, don't like change and as good as equitrack was, I think, at the heart of the problem, was that horses who relished the "off" going no longer had an edge and the trainers did not like that being taken away.

[Tom]

Maybe Klein will come out with a new book, "The Power of Late Speed".

And Beyer can write "Beyer on Plastic"

Tom Brohammer can write MPH..."Modern Poly Handicapping"

And I am already penning "Bet like Pro(pylene)"

[cj]

I think I better go reserve this one right now!

http://www.PolyFigures.com

(this is not real...yet!)

[Indulto]

TT,

It's really none of your trackswax!

[toetoe]

Book based on the teachings of Polly Esther Surface, D.L. (Dirty Lady).

[Pace Cap'n]

Trainers, like fans who bet on the horses, don't like change and as good as equitrack was, I think, at the heart of the problem, was that horses who relished the "off" going no longer had an edge and the trainers did not like that being taken away.

At the time, I was a frequent visitor at Remington. When it opened, Equitrack was hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread, for the first couple of years. Later on, a rash of breakdowns was attributed to the racing surface, by the horsemen, thus prompting the change to dirt.

This is anecdotal, but it seemed that more price horses than usual hit the board on the Equitrack. And no trifectas...

[Valuist]

Its a shame to hear Keeneland is going to go to the Polytrack. The horses could change and the trainers could change, but you could always count on the rail being a highway for 3 weeks in the spring and fall at Keeneland.

[Alan Wight]

This is anecdotal, but it seemed that more price horses than usual hit the board on the Equitrack. And no trifectas...

Turfway Park Average Odds of Winning horse:
February 2005: 5.39-1
February 2006: 4.55-1

[JohnGalt1]

Come on guys (and gals), almost every thread contains these themes--

--There's no value out there.

--It's hard to find and edge.

--There's now new challenges.

Isn't Polytrack a way for us to gain an edge and make money before everyone figures it out?

It's like when a track has a new surface like GP or a new track like Zia Park--the ones who figure it out first wins.

[Valuist]

The problem isn't Polytrack in itself. Its great for a winter track like Turfway. I like it there. I just don't want to see it at Keeneland where one could almost certainly bank on a golden rail bias.

[falconridge]

Book based on the teachings of Polly Esther Surface, D.L. (Dirty Lady).Any relation to racing writer Bill Surface, author of The Track: A Day in the Life of Belmont Park (1976; out of print)? :confused: :)

[toetoe]

Any resemblance is strictly superficial.

[Indulto]

FR,

"The Track" was one of my all-time favorites. It was the source of a Johnny Nerud quote to the effect that a bad day at the track was better than a good day away from it.

I hope I still have it packed away somewhere because now I'm dying to read it again.

[Indulto]

Speaking of surfaces:

Frankel also prominent in undercard By JAY PRIVMAN
http://www.drf.com/news/article/72858.html

Hollywood turf gets thumbs up

Trainer Neil Drysdale called Hollywood Park's newly installed turf course "excellent" after two of his runners, Macduff and Red Fort, breezed a half-mile over the course on Thursday morning. The course was resodded over the winter after a previous resodding effort did not produce satisfactory results, causing turf racing to be canceled at the fall meeting. The upcoming Hollywood Park meeting begins April 26.

[Indulto]

Synthetic surface in works By STEVE ANDERSEN

http://www.drf.com/news/article/73351.html (http://www.drf.com/news/article/73351.html)

"ARCADIA, Calif. - Hollywood Park is proceeding with plans to install a synthetic surface for its fall meeting, and is in the process of completing studies on drainage issues and the ideal mix of materials needed to create the surface, track president Jack Liebau said on Wednesday. The fall meeting at the Inglewood, Calif., track runs Nov. 1 through Dec. 18."

Maybe, just maybe, HOL has a shot at survival. Hat's off to Liebeau and the Bay Meadows Operating Co. for giving it a shot.

[toetoe]

Keep it as a very nice Poly-training center. Develop all but the stables and track, have a petting zoo/Chiquita Anita type thing for kids, have stuff they can charge way too much for, and maybe they'll make money. Think of all the bureaucrats that will become someone else's problem and payroll. Sorry that it makes so much sense. It'll never happen.

[LaughAndBeMerry]

The Keeneland dirt surface is terrific as is. Unless you own / train a horse without early speed and/or spend a month pointing a horse to a 2T race and draw the 10 post. Then it's not so terrific.

The best feature of Poly is that it's balanced. Horses can win with any running style almost anywhere on the strip. In the long run biased racetracks produce short fields and lousy payoffs.

LBM

[toetoe]

Although short fields CAN lead to lousy payoffs and the dummies want big fields to bet on, I refuse to believe that trainers boycott races because of speed biases. Scratching from the rail is about the only one I've ever seen. I commend you for not spouting the faux party line --- safer for the horses. :ThmbUp:

[cnollfan]

The main complaint horsemen had about Remington's Equitrack was that horses were choking on it, and it did not drain evenly as advertised.

Flat mile races at Oaklawn start and end at the 1/16th pole instead of the finish line, so Terry Wallace is reminding fans where the race ends when he refers to the "short stretch of the mile run."

[LaughAndBeMerry]

TT:

I know of at least a couple of trainers that won't ship horses to S. Cal because they feel the surface is too hard and too speed favoring. I think Cal racing will benefit by switching to Poly. I'm not convinced it will make any difference at all at KEE which doesn't suffer from small fields anyway. Based upon everything I've read it is probably safer than the concrete highways out west. My concern is what will happen in the long run if we as an industry begin breeding for Polytrack?

[Indulto]

Although short fields CAN lead to lousy payoffs and the dummies want big fields to bet on, I refuse to believe that trainers boycott races because of speed biases. Scratching from the rail is about the only one I've ever seen. I commend you for not spouting the faux party line --- safer for the horses. :ThmbUp:TT,
Yeah this dummy wants big fields because that combined with lower takout are the surest ways to increase handle. If the 'safer' surface indeed keeps more horses available for racing AND reduces the chance we will have to witness on-track injuries to horses and jockeys, then consider me a faux party member.:ThmbDown:

[Sailwolf]

Although short fields CAN lead to lousy payoffs and the dummies want big fields to bet on, I refuse to believe that trainers boycott races because of speed biases. Scratching from the rail is about the only one I've ever seen. I commend you for not spouting the faux party line --- safer for the horses. :ThmbUp:

Trainers wanted to boycott Hollywwod Park when it went to Friday night racing. The trainers were saying horses could not adapt to night racing.

It seems now that the trainers are willing to race at night especially the average age of people at the track drops about 15 years.

[Lasix1]

The main complaint horsemen had about Remington's Equitrack was that horses were choking on it, and it did not drain evenly as advertised."
Right on all counts, cnollfan, about RP's experiment with Equitrack. The stuff was dirt coated in oil and when you stood trackside it smelled like a refinery. They finally got rid of it for all the stated reasons (trainer complaints, respiratory problems, balling up during cold weather, etc.) plus one that hasn't been mentioned. Remington pulled the plug within a few days of a contract deadline that allowed them to recover a large part of their investment from the English manufacturer.

[ezpace]

I wonder how long jocks can breathe that shit into their lungs before it starts having an effect. How long have they been riding on poly in the U.K. /???

[Ponyplayr]

Come on guys (and gals), almost every thread contains these themes--

--There's no value out there.

--It's hard to find and edge.

--There's now new challenges.

Isn't Polytrack a way for us to gain an edge and make money before everyone figures it out?

It's like when a track has a new surface like GP or a new track like Zia Park--the ones who figure it out first wins.

Handicap Poly the same as you would a Turf race.

[Ponyplayr]

I'm not qualified to guess the motivation for going to poly in California, other than it seems you can strike the weather as a factor. One could say that this only leaves the welfare of the horses as a motivator and that may well be the case. But something tells me there's a story behind the story here.[/QUOTE]

Global WARMING...More RAIN COMEING???:rolleyes: