Most underrated horse

[Valuist]

My two nominees are from year end injustices.

1. Unbridled- how can you win the Kentucky Derby (w/a solid fig) and the Breeders Cup Classic and lose HOY to something called Criminal Type? THAT's criminal.

2. Manila- beat IMO the best BC Turf field ever assembled; champions Theatrical, Estrapade and European champion Dancing Brave, hailed as the best horse out of the UK in 25 years. Somehow, Manila lost 3YO of the year honors to Ferdinand, who beat a weak field in the Derby w/a very low figure. Beyers weren't published back then but I remember reading Beyer saying the number for Ferdinand's Derby was around a 98.

[taintso]

Shug's filly, Inside Information.

[46zilzal]

My two nominees are from year end injustices.

1. Unbridled- how can you win the Kentucky Derby (w/a solid fig) and the Breeders Cup Classic and lose HOY to something called Criminal Type? THAT's criminal.

2. Manila- beat IMO the best BC Turf field ever assembled; champions Theatrical, Estrapade and European champion Dancing Brave, hailed as the best horse out of the UK in 25 years. Somehow, Manila lost 3YO of the year honors to Ferdinand, who beat a weak field in the Derby w/a very low figure. Beyers weren't published back then but I remember reading Beyer saying the number for Ferdinand's Derby was around a 98.

No disagreement there. I was AT that contest weaing a RED shirt touting how Dancing Brave would blow the turns muttereing Manila Manila.

[46zilzal]

whatever happend to Storm Flag Flying? I could tell by her past perfromances that something significant was wrong, but then she came back and was a shadow of herself...Any insights??

[TravisVOX]

Storm Flag Flying was a nutcase. Literally. I would tend to think that was her issue...out of My Flag, right? Remember her issues?

I also think the early-maturity factor played a big role too.

[KirisClown]

Yank's Music

[46zilzal]

good old Swale...Could have been something

[chrisg]

Underrated here in the good old U.S. of A.?

I got 4 words for you:

Paolini

Paolini

Paolini

Paolini

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[KirisClown]

Yank's Music beating Serena's Song...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1tY9HTl5pPs

[stlseeeek]

green aligator
Dance Smartly
Paseana

[kenwoodallpromos]

ONION (USA) ch. G, 1969 DP = 6-4-10-2-0 (22) DI = 2.14 CD = 0.64 - 54 Starts, 15 Wins, 12 Places, 5 Shows Career Earnings: $243,547

Owner: Hobeau Farm
Breeder: Hobeau Farm
State Bred: FL
Winnings: 54 Starts: 15 - 12 - 5, $243,547

At 4: Won Whitney S. (G2); 2nd Carter H. (G2), Paumonok H. (G3); 3rd Roseben H.
At 6: 2nd Bay State H.; 3rd Westchester H. (G2)

Defeated Secretariat (pictured on right) in winning the 1973 Whitney Stakes at Saratoga.
____________________
It should be at least given credit for racing 54 times, winning stakes at age 6, and having 15 wins.

[toetoe]

Siphon, a stakeswinner from 5 1/2 f. to 10 f.

[Valuist]

Buck's Boy- a Breeders Cup turf winner who was a Grade 2 winner on dirt at 10 furlongs.

[Observer]

Hallowed Dreams. No, I don't think she was the greatest sprinter to ever step onto a racetrack .. however, I do firmly believe she did not get the credit she deserved. Winning 16 in a row is something special, regardless of competition. And like it or not, she is tied on that record with Citation & Cigar.

I also believe that Holy Bull & Skip Away were lost in the Cigar smoke. Most people quickly forgot about Holy Bull as Cigar was just at the beginning of his streak when Holy Bull was injured. And Skip Away defeated a soon-to-be retired Cigar before finally getting his act together. But Holy Bull & Skip Away are forgotten because Cigar had so captured the imagination of the world.

[toetoe]

Skip Away had a very improbable pick-three of bad posts in the Triple Crown. He also had a superhorse to measure himself by --- Formal Gold. Skip didn't get his due. Good call.

[Observer]

Thanks .. and thanks for bringing up another point .. I do think Holy Bull & Skip Away faced better horses than those Cigar mostly competed against.

[DrugSalvastore]

ONION (USA) ch. G, 1969 DP = 6-4-10-2-0 (22) DI = 2.14 CD = 0.64 - 54 Starts, 15 Wins, 12 Places, 5 Shows Career Earnings: $243,547

Owner: Hobeau Farm
Breeder: Hobeau Farm
State Bred: FL
Winnings: 54 Starts: 15 - 12 - 5, $243,547

At 4: Won Whitney S. (G2); 2nd Carter H. (G2), Paumonok H. (G3); 3rd Roseben H.
At 6: 2nd Bay State H.; 3rd Westchester H. (G2)

Defeated Secretariat (pictured on right) in winning the 1973 Whitney Stakes at Saratoga.
____________________
It should be at least given credit for racing 54 times, winning stakes at age 6, and having 15 wins.

While it is true that Ken Wood is the 1/20 favorite in the betting for the title "Most Underrated Poster on PaceAdvantage.com" I'll have to disagree here

Onion ran 54 times in his life and won a grand total of 1 stake race. Yet, the vast majority of people know of him---in other words, he's probably not underrated.

[DrugSalvastore]

I'll take Mazel Trick.

He was a perfect 4-for-4 in his career on dirt, including three Graded Stakes wins.

The only two races he ran in 1999 were OUT OF THIS F'ING WORLD!!! Basically, he was Ghostzapper in 1999. That's how good he was.

He ran 7 furlongs in a record 1:19 and change, off an 8 month layoff, and just SLAUGHTERED two excellent California sprinters in sharp form in the Grade 2 Triple Bend. He came right back, was stretched out to two turns, and just HUMILATED a couple of top class Millioniares. The 2nd place finisher, who was crushed, shipped to New York and swept the Woodward and the Jockey Club Gold Cup. The very well beaten 4th place finisher was a horse who earned over $2.8 million, won four stake races that same year, and finished 2nd in that year's Breeders Cup Classic.

Mazel Trick was injured and retired after that race

Mazel Trick was trained by Bobby Frankel, a son of Phone Tick who started his career in France, where he hit the board in all five of his starts. He went INSANE when Frankel put him on dirt.

[rastajenk]

I've always thought Best Pal (http://www.goldeneaglefarms.com/pdf/best_pal_RR_missing_races.pdf) deserved a loftier position in history than he's got.

[Valuist]

Observer-

It should be pointed out that Cigar and Holy Bull faced each other. I still stand by the fact that Cigar broke Holy Bull down in the Donn. He had broken down several horses in his career. I do agree Skip Away did face better.

[GaryG]

I've always thought Best Pal (http://www.goldeneaglefarms.com/pdf/best_pal_RR_missing_races.pdf) deserved a loftier position in history than he's got.He beat a quality field in the Pacific Classic...Unbridled, Farma Way, Twilight Agenda. Cal Breds are still consistently underrated. Let's not forget about Swaps...he was not at his best for the match race and was nothing but brilliant all through his 4yo year.

[PaceAdvantage]

It should be pointed out that Cigar and Holy Bull faced each other. I still stand by the fact that Cigar broke Holy Bull down in the Donn. He had broken down several horses in his career. I do agree Skip Away did face better.

Wow. WOW! That hurt, man. That hurt me on a level never before seen on this message board......

"Cigar broke Holy Bull down....."

You are forever on my shit list...... :lol:

[Valuist]

They were battling head and head down the backside. One lasted to win, one DNF'd. This wasn't the first horse that faced Cigar that couldn't finish the race.

[GaryG]

I saw them both several times and much prefer Holy Bull. I'm not so sure about the "Cigar as Terminator" part but he was a nice horse. I can't forget seeing him get kicked down by a no name at Del Mar though.

[Valuist]

Did Holy Bull win 16 in a row? 8 in a row? Did he even win 4 in a row? He ran nice races in the Travers and Met Mile but his resume pales in comparison to Cigar.

PA-why was mentioning the 95 Donn such a sore spot? Did you lose a P6 due to the race?

[BIG49010]

Cashed a 11+ show bet on Cigar in the Donn! along with a 8 or 9 dollars in the Win Pool.

I cashed a few nice tickets on Cigar, before everybody caught on that he was something special.

[Valuist]

Add one more: Slew O Gold

I believe he won the NYRA fall Triple (Woodward, Marlboro Cup and JC GC) two consecutive years. I never knew why he didn't get more fanfare. Maybe it was too close to all those great horses from the late 70s.

[GaryG]

The 3yo crop of 1957 with Bold Ruler, Round Table and Gallant Man was surely one of the best ever but the best of the lot may have been Calumet's Gen. Duke. He beat Bold Ruler I think in the Flamingo and was considered going into the Derby to be at least 'Ruler's equal. Unfortunately he foundered and was gone before the Derby that was won by Calumet's "other Horse".

[KirisClown]

Observer-

It should be pointed out that Cigar and Holy Bull faced each other. I still stand by the fact that Cigar broke Holy Bull down in the Donn. He had broken down several horses in his career. I do agree Skip Away did face better.

Stand by the "fact"? edit that to "opinion"

Who else did he break down? Don't say Thunder Gulch or Soul Of The Matter...

As far as Skip Away... I still stand by the fact that he made Cigar sterile... :rolleyes:

[KirisClown]

Did Holy Bull win 16 in a row? 8 in a row? Did he even win 4 in a row?

He won 6 in a row before breaking down...

You don't remember?

[Valuist]

I can't remember off the top of my head the names of the other horses. It was over 11 years ago.

I guess I didn't realize 6 wins is about the same as 16 :rolleyes:

And how many of those were in races restricted to 3 year olds? Like I said before, Holy Bull's resume pales in comparison.

[GaryG]

As far as Skip Away... I still stand by the fact that he made Cigar sterile... :rolleyes::lol: :lol: :lol:

[Valuist]

Sounds like a couple people on here had win money on Holy Bull in the 95 Donn. GET OVER IT! He lost.

[kenwoodallpromos]

While it is true that Ken Wood is the 1/20 favorite in the betting for the title "Most Underrated Poster on PaceAdvantage.com" I'll have to disagree here

Onion ran 54 times in his life and won a grand total of 1 stake race. Yet, the vast majority of people know of him---in other words, he's probably not underrated.
________________
Thank you- you just proved ny point! According to Pedigreequery.com Onion won 4 graded stakes- but is only ever credited with the 1 stakes in which he beat Secretartiat. The fact is, the vast majority who have heard of him underrate him (and as a matter of fact, you underrated him on that one) by failing to mention it was a Graded stakes!LOL!! :cool:

[KirisClown]

I can't remember off the top of my head the names of the other horses. It was over 11 years ago.

How can you say.... "He had broken down several horses in his career" Then have no clue who those horses are? :confused:

If you're going to post something like that and present it as FACT, you REALLY should have FACTS to back it up...

[KirisClown]

Valuist-

Should posters be encouraged to make facts up? Post whatever you like, but try to stick within the realm of reality.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Observer-

It should be pointed out that Cigar and Holy Bull faced each other. I still stand by the fact that Cigar broke Holy Bull down in the Donn. He had broken down several horses in his career. I do agree Skip Away did face better.
___________
I am not posting to argue with you about what happened in 1 horse's career- I just would like your opinion on how easy it would be for a horse itself to cause a competitor to break down.

[toetoe]

Valuist,

I got laughed off another board for positing that same theory. Not too terrifying to find we think alike sometimes, I trust? :eek:

DrugS,

So Bobby is a French son of Phone Trick? Makes the accent hard to explain, but not the occasional impersonation of a horse's @$$. :D

[GaryG]

So Bobby is a French son of Phone Trick? Makes the accent hard to explain, but not the occasional impersonation of a horse's @$$. :DNext time I get mad at somebody, something that almost never happens, :rolleyes: I will call them a French son of Phone Trick.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA-why was mentioning the 95 Donn such a sore spot? Did you lose a P6 due to the race?

Didn't bet a dime on the race, but I lost a lot more than $$ that day....

[PaceAdvantage]

And how many of those were in races restricted to 3 year olds? Like I said before, Holy Bull's resume pales in comparison.

You're joking, right? I mean, seriously, you are joking...either that or you're no race fan.

I will assume you are not familiar with Holy Bull's THREE YEAR OLD campaign, and leave it at that....

And I will delete confrontational posts such as the last one you made, so please try and stay somewhat civil during the course of this debate. I never thought of you as a troll or a flamer before, but that last note to Kiri's Clown makes me wonder.

[PaceAdvantage]

Holy Bull only raced twice against older horses during his 3yo campaign (is that really a surprise? How many champion 3yos do you know that raced much more than that against older?)

However, he destroyed the best older horses in training in the Met Mile and Woodward that year....

http://www.darley.co.uk/nominees/winnersvids/stallions/HOL_MetHandicap.asx

The field in the Woodward was a who's who in racing at the time (Devil His Due, Bertrando, Go For Gin, Brunswick, Pistols and Roses, Colonial Affair, Tinners Way....)

http://www.darley.co.uk/nominees/winnersvids/stallions/HOL_Woodward.asx

Earlier that same year, he beat the eventual BC Classic Winner (Concern) in the Travers after battling the Lukas rabbit who was in to help Tabasco Cat...

It was always interesting to see the horses who finished behind Holy Bull come back and win Graded races (races without Holy Bull entered in them of course). Holy Bull was a key race maker of sorts....

[DrugSalvastore]

To say that "Cigar broke down Holy Bull" is fine if it comes from someone who doesn't know much---Valuist, who I find to be extremely competent otherwise, is out of his mind thinking that was the case.

Cigar and Holy Bull weren't involved in some bitter head-to-head speed duel for an extended period of time---basically, they were near each other, and up on a sensible enough pace--after about four furlongs (maybe even less than that), Holy Bull suffered a serious injury.

Now, does someone really believe that Holy Bull wasn't capable of running near a quality horse, through sensible fractions, for less than four furlongs?

[DrugSalvastore]

Valuist,

I got laughed off another board for positing that same theory. Not too terrifying to find we think alike sometimes, I trust? :eek:

You and Valuist have to be joking around? You guys are so much smarter than that. Who are you guys giving the credit to, for breaking down Praire Bayou, about halfway into the Belmont?

I think Ken Wood had about as much to do with Holy Bull breaking down, as Cigar did.

My new startegy is to find a way to include Ken Wood's name into every post I type from now on. I know it will be a challenge, but I think I can pull it off.

[cj]

I was a little shocked Valuist would say something so silly, maybe just busting PA's chops?

[the little guy]

Just as a little aside to the repulsive " Cigar broke down Holy Bull " argument....

The sharpest physical handicapper I know told me during the pre-race warmups at Gulfstream that day that he didn't think Holy Bull would make it around the racetrack.

I guess his was just an unlucky guess.

[classhandicapper]

Shug's filly, Inside Information.

That's a great one!!!

How about Flanders?

She never made it back after her 2YO campaign, but I think that was a pretty sensational 2YO year and you never really hear her mentioned much as a great 2YO filly.

[cj]

I seem to remember Java Gold being a very, very good horse, and you never hear his name mentioned anymore. I wasn't following racing as steadfastly as most times in my life, am I off base with this guy?

Here is something I found on him at EPSN:

#17 Java Gold
Injuries kept Java Gold on the sidelines until April of his 3-year-old season. By mid-summer, he had the measure on Triple Crown race winners Alysheba and Bet Twice by taking the Travers. In that same Saratoga meeting, he would beat top older horses in the Whitney, including Broad Brush, and add the Marlboro Cup that fall over elders as well. Java Gold posted a 6-of-8 record for trainer MacK Miller in 1987. In fact, he faced older horses 6 times in those 8 sophomore starts.

http://www.championsgallery.com/racephoto/fi/0000001a.jpg

[the little guy]

Java Gold was a monster. Injuries kept him off the TC trail, he made his debut in the Best Turn, which was on Wood day, and won the Whitney, Travers ( against maybe the greatest field ever for that race...though it was the mud ), Marlboro and then Day completely butchered him in the JCGC, which he lost by a nose to Creme Fraiche. He was being considered for the BC Classic, a rarity for Mack Miller, when he suffered a career ending injury.

He was always one of my favorite horses.

As for people suggesting somehow Inside Information was underated...huh? She's nominated, and considered the favorite, to make the Hall of Fame this year. Hardly underrated.

[DrugSalvastore]

At least no one mentioned Millkom yet.

Who was the other horse, along with Inside Info and Cigar, who won in hand on one of those Super Saturday's at Belmont in '95.

I think he bowed right after that race. I know he had some fans at the time.

[KirisClown]

He beat the immortal Kaldounevees that day...

I think Millkom attempted a comeback a few years after that Man O War..

[taintso]

Java Gold was a monster. Injuries kept him off the TC trail, he made his debut in the Best Turn, which was on Wood day, and won the Whitney, Travers ( against maybe the greatest field ever for that race...though it was the mud ), Marlboro and then Day completely butchered him in the JCGC, which he lost by a nose to Creme Fraiche. He was being considered for the BC Classic, a rarity for Mack Miller, when he suffered a career ending injury.

He was always one of my favorite horses.

As for people suggesting somehow Inside Information was underated...huh? She's nominated, and considered the favorite, to make the Hall of Fame this year. Hardly underrated.


Inside Information certainly was underrated while on the track. She gets alot of credit after the fact, thanks to her huge win in the BC Distaff, but she went off at almost 5-2 when she pounded Sky Beauty (.35 cents to the dollar) in a four-horse Shuvee field (Mike Smith off to ride Sky Beauty), and her stable mate at the time, Heavenly Prize, had a much bigger reputation despite not being nearly as much horse. I don't think there is any doubt that were they not coupled in the '95 Distaff, Heavenly Prize would have been the favorite over the more talented Inside Info.

To make the argument that because she's nominated to the HoF she couldn't have been underrated is ridiculous.

[Valuist]

I agree Java Gold was a monster. That crop was very strong and if I remember correctly, he didn't run in the Derby or any of the TC races but beat a strong field in the Travers. Although Lost Code may have been the most underrated of that generation. He was right there w/Alysheba and Bet Twice.

[the little guy]

Inside Information certainly was underrated while on the track. She gets alot of credit after the fact, thanks to her huge win in the BC Distaff, but she went off at almost 5-2 when she pounded Sky Beauty (.35 cents to the dollar) in a four-horse Shuvee field (Mike Smith off to ride Sky Beauty), and her stable mate at the time, Heavenly Prize, had a much bigger reputation despite not being nearly as much horse. I don't think there is any doubt that were they not coupled in the '95 Distaff, Heavenly Prize would have been the favorite over the more talented Inside Info.

To make the argument that because she's nominated to the HoF she couldn't have been underrated is ridiculous.

She was 5-2 in that Shuvee because she had an almost non-existent 3YO season, and Sky Beauty had just the opposite. It happened that Inside Info was on the way up, while Sky Beauty was on the way down, but knowing that in May is not necessarily that easy.

As for your claim that Heavenly Prize was not " nearly as much horse " as Inside Info, I beg to differ, and a glance at their respective resumes will slant in Heavenly Prize's favor, especially when 1993, 1994 and 1995 are taken into account. Perhaps you would like to tell me how many Grade 1s each horse won and break it down year by year. No doubt Inside Information was a fine animal, but basing your judgements on one BC race in the mud is, to steal a word from you, ridiculous.

[taintso]

She was 5-2 in that Shuvee because she had an almost non-existent 3YO season, and Sky Beauty had just the opposite. It happened that Inside Info was on the way up, while Sky Beauty was on the way down, but knowing that in May is not necessarily that easy.

As for your claim that Heavenly Prize was not " nearly as much horse " as Inside Info, I beg to differ, and a glance at their respective resumes will slant in Heavenly Prize's favor, especially when 1993, 1994 and 1995 are taken into account. Perhaps you would like to tell me how many Grade 1s each horse won and break it down year by year. No doubt Inside Information was a fine animal, but basing your judgements on one BC race in the mud is, to steal a word from you, ridiculous.


Right. She was nearly 5-2, despite being a dual Gr1 winner at 3 (before injuring herself in the Mother Goose), and having only one prep prior to taking on a supposedly better horse in the Shuvee. It's almost the definition of underrated.

As for the stablemates respective records, you tell me:

Heavenly Prize:

18 starts, 9 wins (8 Gr 1's, 0 Gr 2 or 3), lost as the favorite in all 3 BC appearances. She gets points for racing at 2, 3 & 4, I guess.

Inside Information:

17 starts, 14 wins (6 Gr 1's, 2 Gr 2, 1 Gr 3), also raced at 2, 3 & 4 , but her 3yo year was interrupted after the Mother Goose (luckily for her stablemate.)

[the little guy]

I never said Inside Info wasn't a very nice horse, and she obviously was, but even given a skewed view by just listing wins, Heavenly Prize holds the edge. Unlike Inside Info, Heavenly Prize won Grade 1s at 2,3 and 4. She was a close 4th in the BC Juvenile fillies, which was run at SA. She drowned previously undefeated Strategic Maneuver in just her second start, the Grade 1 Frizette.

Heavenly Prize did lose the BC Distaff at 3 as well, losing by a head or neck to a lone speed, who cut a slow pace which worked heavily against Heavenly Prize's style. To simply include that result in your " lost 3 times in the BC as the favorite " is to attempt to skew the results to favor Inside Information ( which of course they still don't ).

You seem confused by what I said. I did not claim Heavenly Prize was a vastly superior horse to Inside Information, and have great respect for both of them. In different situations each was capable of possibly defeating the other. Clearly Inside Informations speed often gave her a tactical advantage over closer Heavenly Prize. But, they were both fine fillies who, IMO, would have routinely drowned the likes of the overrated Ashado.

My only claim was that I disagreed with your contention that Heavenly Prize was not " nearly the horse that " Inside Information was.

[taintso]

I never said Inside Info wasn't a very nice horse, and she obviously was, but even given a skewed view by just listing wins, Heavenly Prize holds the edge. Unlike Inside Info, Heavenly Prize won Grade 1s at 2,3 and 4. She was a close 4th in the BC Juvenile fillies, which was run at SA. She drowned previously undefeated Strategic Maneuver in just her second start, the Grade 1 Frizette.

Heavenly Prize did lose the BC Distaff at 3 as well, losing by a head or neck to a lone speed, who cut a slow pace which worked heavily against Heavenly Prize's style. To simply include that result in your " lost 3 times in the BC as the favorite " is to attempt to skew the results to favor Inside Information ( which of course they still don't ).

You seem confused by what I said. I did not claim Heavenly Prize was a vastly superior horse to Inside Information, and have great respect for both of them. In different situations each was capable of possibly defeating the other. Clearly Inside Informations speed often gave her a tactical advantage over closer Heavenly Prize. But, they were both fine fillies who, IMO, would have routinely drowned the likes of the overrated Ashado.

My only claim was that I disagreed with your contention that Heavenly Prize was not " nearly the horse that " Inside Information was.

Ashado has no place in this discussion, agreed. Heavenly Prize lost the BC Distaff you refer to to One Dreamer, a 47-1 shot who received a 105 Beyer for the effort. There is no silver lining to her performance that day. I never said Heavenly Prize was a lost cause, either, you're the one who suggested I research their records.

[the little guy]

Ashado has no place in this discussion, agreed. Heavenly Prize lost the BC Distaff you refer to to One Dreamer, a 47-1 shot who received a 105 Beyer for the effort. There is no silver lining to her performance that day. I never said Heavenly Prize was a lost cause, either, you're the one who suggested I research their records.

Yes, I said you should research your records to see that Heavenly Prize was NOT " not nearly the horse " Inside Info was. I think the research proved that.

As for you claiming " there is no silver lining " in Heavenly Prize's second to One Dreamer, I disagree, and other than the 111 figure Inside Information got IN THE MUD on BC day, how many other figures did she run that were vastly superior to Heavenly Prize?

[taintso]

Heavenly Prize's top was 111 (Alabama & Beldame); Inside Info got a 119 BC day, 112 in the Ruffian, 111 in the Shuvee.

[the little guy]

I didn't realize she got a 119. Pretty nice.

On the other hand save the mud race, and I don't dispute it was an outrageously good performance, both had very similar tops.

It was fun....thanks. Plus, I am a Taint So fan.

[KirisClown]

but she went off at almost 5-2 when she pounded Sky Beauty (.35 cents to the dollar) in a four-horse Shuvee field (Mike Smith off to ride Sky Beauty).

Smith was at Pimlico... Krone rode Sky Beauty that day...

[the little guy]

I guess you do have to move up Inside Info's performance that day.....Santos rode her.

[KirisClown]

I think Shug could have ridden Inside Information that day and won... Sky Beauty.. as awesome as she was, just wasnt into it anymore when they met...

5-2 was pretty generous for Inside Info, but all in all the odds made sense that day.... Sky Beauty was coming in with a 12 for 12 record at Belmont, and was FAR more accomlished.

[delayjf]

I have always felt that Alysheba was a bit underrated. Never mentioned in the same breath as Cigar, Skip Away, Holy Bull. But, how many horses these days have great three year old seasons and gone on to have great four year old seasons as well.

Won two out of Three TC races against a very tough Bet Twice.
Lost BC Classic and HOY by a Nose to HOY winner, Ferdinand.
BC champion and HOY in his 4 year old season.
1 1/4 track record at Belmont and Meadowlands. (at that time)
all time leading money winner at the time of retirement.

[DrugSalvastore]

I think Shug could have ridden Inside Information that day and won... Sky Beauty.. as awesome as she was, just wasnt into it anymore when they met....

I don't agree at all with you or TLG on this one....I can't sit by idly and not defend my favorite horse growing up.

Just because Sky Beauty didn't subsequently run well in her one start after this race--doesn't mean she wasn't herself when the vastly superior II toyed with her. A multiple Graded Stakes winner, and pretty nice broodmare, Restored Hope was 3rd beaten 24 lengths behind Inside Information and Sky Beauty that day. I think another decent horse was beaten like 40 lengths in that race if I recall.

Inside Info was a multiple Grade 1 winner at age three, and AWESOME to boot. Sky Beauty was not being bet because of the perceived weakness of the field. She sharply enough won a Graded Stake in 1:21 2/5 a few weeks before this race...and the fact that she was 12-for-12 over the race track, and Durkin calling her "the invincbile queen of Belmont Park" probably factored in to the overbetting. I always wondered what the excuse would have been for Cigar--as we all know Inside Information would have beaten him in '95 if given the oppertunity.

Besides being freaky and eye-catching--II has done some real cool stuff record wise.

* She's the only horse in history to ever win three different Grade 1 races by 10+ lengths. (winning the Breeders Cup Distaff by 13 1/2, the Acorn by 11, and The Ruffian by 11) Spectacular Bid and Ruffian are the only two horses to ever win multiple Gr. 1's by double digit lengths. And, that's with Bid's walkover win included.

* She was a multiple Grade 1 winner and a perfect 6-for-6 lifetime around two turns. Also an undefeated multiple Grade 1 winner outside of New York. Which flies in the face of this idea that she was fond of Belmont and mud.

* She's most famously remembered for winning the 95 Breeders Cup Distaff by 13 1/2 lengths in 1:46 flat (3/5ths off of Secretariat's ancient track record) over one of the deepest fields ever. On that day, she beat 11-time Grade 1 winner Serena's Song, 8-time Grade 1 winner Heavenly Prize, 4-time Grade 1 winner Lakeway as well as a filly named Mariah's Storm, who had previously run a 120 beyer figure--and since went on to be the dam of Giant's Causeway.

If they let Inside Information into the Hall Of Fame, knowing the voters, it will probably be because of her 17-14-1-2 lifetime record and the fact that she's the dam of champion Smuggler. In my opinion, those are about two of the least impressive things she accomplished. She suffered injuries in two of her losses, and stumbled horribly in the other. If it wasn't for her BC win, which got her the attention she deserved, she would easily be my pick for most underrated.

[toetoe]

DrugS,

"As we all know, she would beat Cigar." :jump: Is it possible we don't all know that we know? Wait, I got it. You went to Marist, right? :D

General Duke was part of that great Triple Crown of '57(?), or was it '59? Bold Ruler, Iron Liege, Gallant Man ... if I got three of four right, I'm pleasantly surprised.

[DrugSalvastore]

DrugS,

"As we all know, she would beat Cigar." :jump: Is it possible we don't all know that we know? Wait, I got it. You went to Marist, right? :D .

Dude, don't ever underestimate the great Inside Information!

Not only did she accomplish all the great things above, but, as a handicapper, she picked the winner of 21 consecutive Breeders Cup Races. Only two behind Oddswizards record!

[GMB@BP]

Dude, don't ever underestimate the great Inside Information!

Not only did she accomplish all the great things above, but, as a handicapper, she picked the winner of 21 consecutive Breeders Cup Races. Only two behind Oddswizards record!

not that it matters much, but I asked someone who rode both Azeri and II who was the better horse, and in her prime (azeri at 4) he thought Azeri would win. Like I said, it aint worth much, but maybe puts into context how talented azeri was.

[DrugSalvastore]

not that it matters much, but I asked someone who rode both Azeri and II who was the better horse, and in her prime (azeri at 4) he thought Azeri would win. Like I said, it aint worth much, but maybe puts into context how talented azeri was.

When ever a 5% jockey gives his opinion, just assume the opposite is true.

I was a huge fan of Azeri after watching her break her maiden---she was awesome visually, and I think she went in 1:08 and change...was like 15/1 on the board. It was a no-brainer she would be a top horse....however, all the hype she started to get for beating absurdly weak fields, in less than spectacular time, it really turned me against her a little.

TVG and Vic Stauffer teamed up to make that horse impossible to tolerate. She was damn good...but when II was right, and II was almost always right, I think she would make toast of Azeri.

[GMB@BP]

When ever a 5% jockey gives his opinion, just assume the opposite is true.

I was a huge fan of Azeri after watching her break her maiden---she was awesome visually, and I think she went in 1:08 and change...was like 15/1 on the board. It was a no-brainer she would be a top horse....however, all the hype she started to get for beating absurdly weak fields, in less than spectacular time, it really turned me against her a little.

TVG and Vic Stauffer teamed up to make that horse impossible to tolerate. She was damn good...but when II was right, and II was almost always right, I think she would make toast of Azeri.

I have a couple good azeri stories but will post at the other board.

give the rider some credit, he was 10% then!!!!!

[Wiley]

I have always felt that Alysheba was a bit underrated. Never mentioned in the same breath as Cigar, Skip Away, Holy Bull. But, how many horses these days have great three year old seasons and gone on to have great four year old seasons as well.
Probably right, especially now since he is the last Derby winner to become 4 year old champ.
He especially came on at the end of his 4 year old campaign as you mention with the big Woodward, Med Cup and BC win on a mucky CD track.
An early knock on him was he ran on Lasix and back in '87 New York still did not allow it, he avoided New York races and ran poorly in the Belmont and Travers (though on a off track). His track record Woodward at 4 kind of dispels the Lasix issue.
His recovery when Bet Twice swerved in front of him and Aly clipped heels in the Derby was one for the ages, at least as difficult as Afleet Alex's in last year's Preakness because if Aly had gone down it would have been ugly with the calvcade of horses coming from behind him down the Derby stretch. That was a pretty good three year old crop too with the above two, Java Gold, probably the most talented of the group, Cryptoclearance, Gone West, Polish Navy, and Lost Code who was gutty speed who could carry it a distance of ground.

[Valuist]

If Inside Information ran against Cigar you'd better get the track ambulance ready for her.

BTW, what was HER excuse for not trying to run against him? She had the chance.

Also, no Ogden Phipps/McGaughey horse should ever be used in connection with the word "underrated". Nobody anywhere gets more hype than those runners.

[GaryG]

If Inside Information ran against Cigar you'd better get the track ambulance ready for her.I agree Valu, not ready to make Inside Info the greatest female since Busher. The young man just gets full of himself sometimes and is prone to some er...exaggerations? :lol:

[Valuist]

I guess we know why he calls himself the Drug Salvastore.

[the little guy]

not that it matters much, but I asked someone who rode both Azeri and II who was the better horse, and in her prime (azeri at 4) he thought Azeri would win. Like I said, it aint worth much, but maybe puts into context how talented azeri was.

No, it puts into context how clueless Mike Smith is.

[cj]

I'm a figures guy, so I have to believe II would have had a huge shot that day against Cigar.

[the little guy]

Well, CJ, then yer clearly yet another young man who sometimes gets full of himself and is prone to exageration.

[KirisClown]

I don't agree at all with you or TLG on this one....I can't sit by idly and not defend my favorite horse growing up.

Just because Sky Beauty didn't subsequently run well in her one start after this race--doesn't mean she wasn't herself when the vastly superior II toyed with her. A multiple Graded Stakes winner, and pretty nice broodmare, Restored Hope was 3rd beaten 24 lengths behind Inside Information and Sky Beauty that day. I think another decent horse was beaten like 40 lengths in that race if I recall.


I was a huge fan of Inside Information too, id never knock her... it took me a while to get over her losing the Mother Goose and Ballerina...

As far as Sky Beauty... I just cant agree that she was herself..

The Vagrancy win was over a track that produced some very quick times that day... she beat Aly's Conquest... the less said the better about that one..

Sure she beat Restored Hope and that pos Island Of Silver in the Shuvee... but Restored Hope was basically an inner track specialst, she came into the Shuvee 6 for 6 and only won once more in her lifetime.... Island Of Silver was a slow Godolphin owned turf runner, back when they were sending their 20th string to the US..

The Hempstead proves that SB was going down fast.. She finishes 10 lths behind Little Buckels? I was there that day, and she had nothing, never made any sort of run, it was painful watching her struggle... she only managed to beat the mediocre turfer Vinista by 3 lths...

A horse that had been as brilliant as Sky Beauty wouldnt be getting embarrassed like that, unless something was wrong with her...

[cj]

Well, CJ, then yer clearly yet another young man who sometimes gets full of himself and is prone to exageration.

I spent the day at Trinity Meadows near Fort Worth. II got a 119 Beyer, Cigar a 117. I remember being pissed II was coupled with Heavenly Prize, because I figured alone she would be at least 5-2, maybe more. Heavenly Prize was perceived as the stronger half of that entry by a lot of people that day.

Anyway, here is something to chew on with Cigar. Here are the horses that finished second to him during his streak:

Golden Plover, Devil His Due, Upping the Ante, Primitive Hall, Pride of Burkaan, Silver Goblin, Devil His Due, Poor But Honest, Tinners Way, Star Standard, Unaccounted For, L'Carriere, Wekiva Springs, Soul of the Matter, Personal Merit, and Dramatic Gold.

Not exactly a list of future Hall of Famers. By the way, in his next start after the BC win, he beat Heavenly Prize in the Donn by 6th lengths, the same Heavenly Prize II dusted by 13 1/2 lengths.

[the little guy]

So, you're saying you're NOT a young man who gets full of himself and is prone to exageration?


And furthermore.....I hope you're not suggesting that Poor But Honest isn't a future Hall-of-Famer. Now that would be an exageration I couldn't accept.

Didn't Ferriola train him at one time?

[cj]

No, I'm not young.

I don't remember much about him, but I know he was a claimer at the Big M, and I'm pretty sure a 5,000 one at that.

My brother and I knew he had stepped up and won a couple races in a much higher class, and bet a horse he had beaten by a nose next out. That info wasn't as easy to come by as it is now. He won and paid around $11.00. I also know I was at Delmarva Downs at the time. Why do I remember useless crap like this!?

[KirisClown]

So, you're saying you're NOT a young man who gets full of himself and is prone to exageration?


And furthermore.....I hope you're not suggesting that Poor But Honest isn't a future Hall-of-Famer. Now that would be an exageration I couldn't accept.

Didn't Ferriola train him at one time?

I think you're right.. he ended up with Serey though toward the end of his career and won a few stks... then broke down in the Queens County...

[toetoe]

What about the real horses injured mid-race or beaten into submission, which finished up the track? I know Holy Bull was one. I was never a votary of Sham, but was Secretariat's Belmont worse than his KD and P'ness (pardon the expression) because Sham didn't finish cecond?

[delayjf]

Java Gold, probably the most talented of the group,

I know a few other hear are of the same opinion, I'm not so sure. In the Travers both Bet Twice and Alysheba finished off the board in the Slop. So it seems obvious to me that the TC /Haskell/ Slop took it's toll. Anybody know why Java Gold did not run in the Haskell?

[Wiley]

Anybody know why Java Gold did not run in the Haskell?
He won the Whitney around the same time as the Haskell (a great race I agree with Lost Code, Bet Twice and Alysheba pounding it out), granted he ran down a short Gulch in the stretch but still a nice win, pretty much ran the same race in the Travers crushing a great field and yes the slop was a plus being by Key to the Mint. I think injury kept JG off the TC trail but his return was much anticipated. Just my opinion on the talent part, he did not race as long so he was not as accomplished as either Aly or Bet Twice and I agree the TC races probably took something out of both. Java visually showed a huge burst of accelaration down the lane which impressed me in both the Whitney and Travers.

On my only visit to Saratoga, I played Java in the Travers and his lesser known stablemate Jack of Clubs (Day up on both) in the stakes before, Bold Reason? he ran down Creme Fraiche (odds on) and those two races brought me to a modest profit for the week. Creme Fraiche came back to beat JG in the Jockey Club Gold Cup by a nose or so after Day took back in a paceless race if I remember correctly, arghh.

[GaryG]

What about the real horses injured mid-race or beaten into submission, which finished up the track? I know Holy Bull was one. I was never a votary of Sham, but was Secretariat's Belmont worse than his KD and P'ness (pardon the expression) because Sham didn't finish cecond?Sham may have been a TC winner if not for the big red guy. He was a quality 3yo and there is no doubt that Sec broke him down.

[RXB]

I spent the day at Trinity Meadows near Fort Worth. II got a 119 Beyer, Cigar a 117. I remember being pissed II was coupled with Heavenly Prize, because I figured alone she would be at least 5-2, maybe more. Heavenly Prize was perceived as the stronger half of that entry by a lot of people that day.

Anyway, here is something to chew on with Cigar. Here are the horses that finished second to him during his streak:

Golden Plover, Devil His Due, Upping the Ante, Primitive Hall, Pride of Burkaan, Silver Goblin, Devil His Due, Poor But Honest, Tinners Way, Star Standard, Unaccounted For, L'Carriere, Wekiva Springs, Soul of the Matter, Personal Merit, and Dramatic Gold.

Not exactly a list of future Hall of Famers. By the way, in his next start after the BC win, he beat Heavenly Prize in the Donn by 6th lengths, the same Heavenly Prize II dusted by 13 1/2 lengths.

General Assembly earned a bigger Beyer when he won the Travers than Spectacular Bid EVER earned, even as an older horse. But in five tries against Bid, General Assembly never got closer than 2 3/4 lengths at the wire-- including the Marlboro Cup a few weeks later when Bid beat him by 5 lengths. I'm hardly convinced that Inside Information would've beaten Cigar based on a measly two-point Beyer advantage at a different distance, especially given that all of her competitors ran rather dismally that day and afforded no real opposition.

I agree that Cigar's competition wasn't particularly tough by Grade 1 standards. But he beat them time after time after time in convincing fashion all over the country. I should note that Concern, the defending Breeders' Cup Classic victor who was beaten narrowly by Holy Bull in the Travers, tried Cigar twice and was beaten by 6 1/2 and 5 lengths while finishing third both times. Not in the same form? Probably, but it points out the speciousness of comparing Heavenly Prize's subpar effort against II versus her much improved form against Cigar to suggest that II was the better horse.

Like most people, I don't believe that Cigar was up to beating the likes of Secretariat, Slew, Affirmed, Bid. But those horses are among the champions of the champions, the greatest of the great. Cigar did enough to prove that he was a great horse.

[Observer]

Of course, I'll agree that Alysheba is underrated .. I simply LOVE that horse!!

It was mentioned in an earlier post that Alysheba suffered losses in the Belmont & Travers while racing without Lasix, yet set a track record in the Woodward. Well, Alysheba was a different horse at age 4 then he was at age 3. Not only did Alysheba come off Lasix, but he also gave up blinkers as an older horse. (If I recall right, Alysheba was simply a maiden winner when he scored in the Derby .. his Blue Grass win was lost to a disqualification)

Obviously his Derby makes him memorable. But one of the most exciting/frustrating things about Alysheba was that he only won by as much as he needed .. which I recall Van Berg crediting as the reason why Alysheba stayed sound.

I also recall that Alysheba ran down very badly in the sloppy '87 Travers, which is why Van Berg scratched him from the '88 Jockey Club Gold Cup and opted for the Meadowlands Cup. I was a very disappointed, wet, cold racing fan that day at Belmont when both Alysheba & Winning Colors were scratched from the card (along with many others). However, watching Waquoit splash home was a thrill!

[RXB]

Waquoit was a very good horse. Not quite a great horse, but he was one rugged customer for an extended period. His Mass Cap win over Broad Brush was one of the most exciting races I've ever seen. Pretty heady stuff for a Suffolk Downs horse.

[Valuist]

Some great points re: Alysheba and Cigar. Speed figures may be a great handicapping tool but they should not be the only measure of whether a horse is great or merely good.

BTW, did Inside Information ever run a 119 on a dry track?

[Observer]

Observer-

It should be pointed out that Cigar and Holy Bull faced each other.

I never said they didn't run against each other.

[Observer]

Waquoit was a very good horse. Not quite a great horse...

I never said he was great .. just that it was a thrill seeing him romp as he did in the Jockey Club Gold Cup on a nasty weather day when stars like Alysheba & Winning Colors scratched from the card.

[RXB]

I never said he was great .. just that it was a thrill seeing him romp as he did in the Jockey Club Gold Cup on a nasty weather day when stars like Alysheba & Winning Colors scratched from the card.

I wasn't implying that you said Waquoit was great. I was just giving him a well-deserved nod by saying that he was a very good horse.

[toetoe]

I loved Waquoit. My error in the BC was taking him for the next Cinteelo --- invincible in the mud/slop. He gave his all, but Alysheba and Seeking The Gold whipped him. He was the toast of Sufferin' Downs, I think.

[classhandicapper]

I know some people are very numbers oriented, but I think it's difficult to seperate horses that are within a few points on Beyers or some combination of pace and speed when they exit different races. There are accuracy issues involved with the figures (the variants used) and more importantly race development and trip issues that are hard to quantify. That goes double if the quality of the fields was a lot different.

I think Inside Information was a monster, but I'd tend to downplay her big win in the BC a little because she went wire to wire on a Muddy track. If you look at 100s of muddy track charts, you'll see dozens of massive wins. There's something about many muddy/sloppy tracks that tends to exaggerate the margins between horses (often substantially) relative to what is typical. Maybe it's the actual mud being kicked up on the horses in the rear or maybe some horses just don't like it, but with those exaggerated margins often come exaggerated speed figures because figure makers don't know how to handle the big gaps between horses in a way that makes sense.

[cj]

I think Inside Information was a monster, but I'd tend to downplay her big win in the BC a little because she went wire to wire on a Muddy track.

She was 4th after the opening 1/4, a length behind. She actually never went wire to wire in a stakes race in her career, though she was very close in the Acorn. A lot of people seem to falsely remember her as a speed burner, but that wasn't the case at all. She also won by many lengths almost every time she won, mud or no mud. Only twice did a horse finish within 2 1/4 lengths in her wins.

Her winning margins were 13 1/2, hd, 11, 6 3/4, 2 1/4, 5 1/2, 4, 8, 11, 5 1/2, 2 3/4, nk, 7, 7 1/2.

[Houndog]

I thought Alphabet Soup might have been a little underrated especially going into the BC Classic. Probably does not compare to some of the others mentioned, but he always seemed to put forth good efforts. I was also a big fan of Java Gold.

Don't want to mention too many here, but Bet Twice also comes to mind.

[classhandicapper]

She was 4th after the opening 1/4, a length behind.

Her winning margins were 13 1/2, hd, 11, 6 3/4, 2 1/4, 5 1/2, 4, 8, 11, 5 1/2, 2 3/4, nk, 7, 7 1/2.

No doubt she was great. That much I agree on 100%.

The problem is that the list of exaggerated figures earned under sloppy/muddy conditions that were never duplicated (for both front runners and closers) is gigantic.

IMO, some of them were just mud lovers, but IMO there's a much bigger problem with the figure making process itself. I discovered this in the early 80s, but I'm not sure there's really an adequate solution, though I do tinker with one.

The margins between horses tend to be exaggerated on wet tracks!

In a study I did back in the early 80s, on many off tracks the average margin between horses tended to be twice as large as on fast tracks (sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the day).

That may be the effect of horses racing behind others having all that extra weight (mud) kicked in their faces and chests. Those that get to the front quickly or somehow stay out of the way of flying mud are getting the best of it.

Some of the horses may just hate the wet track and run poorly.

Jockeys may ease horses once they are beat because they are covered in mud. Maybe there's things going on I don't understand.

The reality though is that margins often expand.

In any event, when the speed figure guys make their projection figures for a day like that they use the standard beaten length charts.

If they don't give out a massive figure to the winner, they are then forced to give out extremely low figures for everyone else because they are often so badly beaten length-wise.

So they tend to give out a very big (potentially inflated) figure to the winner, just so they can give the rest of the horses in the field a figure that makes a little sense.

So aside from running style, bias, mud loving ability, wire to wire winners etc... that complicate mud figures, I think there's a huge technical problem that very few people seem aware of. IMO it can lead to very inflated figures.

I'm not even sure that's the case for II's Breeder's Cup race because I didn't make any figures for that day and a quick glance at the charts didn't reveal anything too unusual, but it's something to make note of.

She was great though, no doubt about it. Very high on my "all time" list.