View Full Version : Owner as Trainer at Mountaineer/Charlestown
Not too many months ago, when considering my choice of tracks to focus on, while perusing the results from the above mentioned tracks I noticed a distinct trend. Many horses were winning which had the trainer-or family as the owner. Many more so were winning relative to the number of horses entered by trainer as owner combinations as a whole. In addition, many of these mutuals were quite healthy and many of the place and show horses showed the same traits.
I called an associate of mine in management at BRIS and he said they looked at doing that previously but because of the various ways the ownership can be legally stated, partnerships, etc. it was futile to be able to do it accurately.
He suggested I do it myself as he didn't know of anyone who had these stats available commercially. I'm convinced, after perusing a month or two of data that this angle should absolutely not be ignored and is probably one of the best tools for playing those tracks. The numbers were truly uncanny. It would be like every time I'd see horses at 10-1 or above in the top three slots I'd mentally say to myself, watch two of the three be owner/trainers, sure enough that's what I'd find.
Does anyone have a database of such info. I'd quite understand if no one does or would be NOT interested in sharing it. Just thought I'd pass along what I found. Take a look yourself if you'd like to confirm what I'm saying, you might be pretty shocked how wild it is.
I've been too busy until just recently to play much at all or to get this study done, but I believe it's one of the juiceist angles in the nation.
eqitec
03-07-2006, 10:44 PM
BRIS was right. It's next to impossible to decipher.
In my database of 11,000 winners. I created a field to count winners where the owner and trainer were an exact match. There were 27 out of 11,000.
We all know the real # is much higher. Many trainers who are owners have their horse in the names of their wives, farm names, stable names, partnership groups, etc. E.g. so many of Allen Jerkens owned horses are in the name of Elizabeth Jerkens.
The software I use for handicapping has a screen that shows the owners' and trainers' names right next to each other. I used to check it religiously looking for an edge but found over the course of time that it it was of no value.
The software I use for handicapping has a screen that shows the owners' and trainers' names right next to each other. I used to check it religiously looking for an edge but found over the course of time that it it was of no value.
I'm telling you that over the last few months at those tracks you wouldn't have found it of no value. I'd very strongly guess you would have overcome the takeout, if you simply blindly bet the trainers who seem quite capable and deliver very high mutuals with their own stock, Dale Baird is one that comes to mind.
hurrikane
03-08-2006, 06:22 PM
Don't be fooled. If you look at many races at these tracks you will find the owner and trainer the same maybe 5 or 6 a race. Then what?
The owner question is very very convoluded. For taxes, exstates, legal, illegal and many other reasons the ownership issue is a cloud. If you have the time and connections to be at the track and take it in maybe you could make something out of it. Until they make the ownership of horses public it won't be any good to you. MHO
hurrikane
03-08-2006, 06:34 PM
just a for instance. I checked one night at MNR.
32 instances of owner trainer.
1 win (17.60)
5 place (one for 36, the rest for 3-5 bucks)
3 show (3 -6 )
good luck
just a for instance. I checked one night at MNR.
32 instances of owner trainer.
1 win (17.60)
5 place (one for 36, the rest for 3-5 bucks)
3 show (3 -6 )
good luck
Hurrikane,
I do understand that the results have to be judged within the context of overall owner/trainer entries. And yes, I just looked at a few days of recent Charlestown data myself and it was dismal.
Not to change my story to fit the facts, but now that I think about it, it was actually roughly last summer, not a few months ago that I did my survey, and in spite of approx. 3-4 O/T entries per race, the results were quite impressive looking, particularly if you eliminated the trainers that didn't perform as an owner.
There were a few handful of trainers that could bring them in regularly with rather eye-popping mutuals. Whether that's still the case now is not clear.
It would make sense that you'd find some of the most effective and determined form darkening at tracks with low purses and with horses who are owned by the trainer, yes?
hurrikane
03-09-2006, 05:56 AM
Hurrikane,
It would make sense that you'd find some of the most effective and determined form darkening at tracks with low purses and with horses who are owned by the trainer, yes?
Perhaps, if you buy into the whole paranoid 'form darkening' school of thought. The ownere trainer situation runs across all tracks.
And these 2 tracks you speak of are by no means 'low purses' tracks.
Murph
03-09-2006, 08:30 AM
Perhaps, if you buy into the whole paranoid 'form darkening' school of thought. The ownere trainer situation runs across all tracks.
And these 2 tracks you speak of are by no means 'low purses' tracks.
As noted earlier, you must take the owner trainer angle in context. With these younger horses you may do well to consider that in some cases the trainer understands LESS about about his runners chances today than you, the handicapper, do. Advantage handicapper!
Combine that with probably half the time that neither the connections or the bettors clearly understand what will happen today and you can see where the odd results may be accounted for. This is one reason I LIKE to bet maiden races. I count on the majority of maiden owners to be trying every trick in the book to get into that winners circle and buy a frame for that Stakes Blanket for the wall in the den. :ThmbUp:
I don't believe the majority of connections will "stiff" young runners in races with $25K to $60K winners purse shares on the line. :ThmbDown:
An angle I look for on the owner, trainer seperation is the breeder. This is an immediate qualifier for special attention amoung the entire group. Who better can judge the abilities of a colt or fillie than the owner who foaled this animal on his own farm and is investing every oat the horse will consume in bringing them to the race track?
OH! OHH!! I have an idea! Let's call it the BOT angle and add it to the list!
Breeder - Owner - Trainer
Identify trainers who also have bred and currently own the runner.
Restrict play (arbitrarily) to MSW, Allowance and Stakes conditions.
(Experienced handicappers may also risk including Mdn Clm class drops when they have properly identified current form.)
Record the results for the track you play and KEEP them for referance years into the future.
An example of the applied method can be found in this thread.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22694&page=4&pp=20
Enjoy gentlemen,
Murph
Perhaps, if you buy into the whole paranoid 'form darkening' school of thought. The ownere trainer situation runs across all tracks.
And these 2 tracks you speak of are by no means 'low purses' tracks.
Hurrikane,
When you say "paranoid" what are you implying? That I somehow think every race is rigged? That there is no such phenomena as form darkening? No offense taken, but please clarify.
Do trainers at times not give their horses workouts disguised as ugly races? Does this not help the mutual increase for the following race? If, as a trainer, you'd like to decrease the chances of your horse being claimed in the following race where it will be well-intentioned and you'd like to have a fatter mutual, why wouldn't you use a race as a workout and for form darkening, rather than simply a workout itself.
Am I missing something that makes this idea not plausible?
[QUOTE=Murph]
OH! OHH!! I have an idea! Let's call it the BOT angle and add it to the list!
Breeder - Owner - Trainer
Identify trainers who also have bred and currently own the runner.
Murph
Tom Worth was using the OTB angle 20 years ago in his T.I.P.S. publications.
iggy
[QUOTE=Murph]
Murph
Tom Worth was using the OTB angle 20 years ago in his T.I.P.S. publications.
iggy
Was the angle WORTH anything?:eek:
[QUOTE=iggy]
Was the angle WORTH anything?:eek:
Worth did not use OTB or other angles as stand alone only as part of the overall picture. No idea of its value or the overall TIPS value but others might be able to answer that question.
iggy
Blackgold
03-09-2006, 05:21 PM
I always give a 2nd and 3rd look when owner/trainer is the same. . . especially for layoff runners where works may be hidden from public view. . .i.e., on the farm.
Remember being knocked out of final leg of HOL guaranteed $400K P4 by an owner/trainer in the last leg, which was a mcl event.
Definately something to always note, especially for those that play the gimmicks.
I always give a 2nd and 3rd look when owner/trainer is the same. . . especially for layoff runners where works may be hidden from public view. . .i.e., on the farm.
Remember being knocked out of final leg of HOL guaranteed $400K P4 by an owner/trainer in the last leg, which was a mcl event.
Definately something to always note, especially for those that play the gimmicks.
Amen Brother. I will overlook those if the trainer seems utterly inept though.
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