Big A Brawl, March 5, Race 6

[cj]

Here are the chart comments:

TSURIS was sent outside on the first turn, bumped repeatedly with PRINCE TUTTA on the backstretch, dueled with that rival for three quarters and tired.

PRINCE TUTTA quickly opened a clear lead, bumped repeatedly with TSURIS when joined by that rival on the backstretch, dueled inside for three quarters and tired.

If you have access to the replay, watch it, then try these questions:

What the hell were the stewards watching during this race that the 4 wasn't DQed from 3rd?
How long will Espinoza be suspended?
Once the stewards suspend him for a long time, and they pretty much have to do just that, doesn't that magnify their own incompetence?

[aaron]

I just watched the replay. It looked like Espinosa was on a mission.I thought that while watching the race,but didn't see the bumping until I watched the head on.
The stewards in NY will never take a horse down in those situations unless they cause the jockey to fall or almost fall off.

[the little guy]

Espinoza should be banned. Taking a personal vendetta out on the racetrack, where not only is he endangering the lives of ALL the other riders and horses in the race, but is essentially defrauding the bettors by altering the outcome of the race due to his behavior, is unacceptable. Any penalty short of six months, at which time he can only appeal to be reinstated, flies in the face of fairness.

[aaron]

Little Guy
Do you think the race will even be reviewed by the stewards?

[the little guy]

Oh yeah...just because it goes unmentioned in the newspapers doesn't mean it's not a big story. Anyone with a pulse following New York racing was all over this. It's a serious story.

[classhandicapper]

Espinoza should be banned. Taking a personal vendetta out on the racetrack, where not only is he endangering the lives of ALL the other riders and horses in the race, but is essentially defrauding the bettors by altering the outcome of the race due to his behavior, is unacceptable. Any penalty short of six months, at which time he can only appeal to be reinstated, flies in the face of fairness.

I must be living in a cave.

Could someone tell me what the motivation was?

[PaceAdvantage]

I keep meaning to watch this race again, as I missed it originally, and people have been telling me about it....

Figures...BRISbet replays are down at the moment....

[cj]

Isn't it amazing the incident has gotten ZERO coverage from anyone in the press? If this happened in a "real" sport, it would be story number one on every sports show and in every newspaper. Not just that it happened, but why as well.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just watched the head-on.....roller-derby at the BIG A!!!!! :lol:

Those guys not only endangered themselves, but the rest of the field behind them....I particularly liked the way Fragoso used his arm to try and shove Espinoza off of him....that was classic....

[cj]

No one has addressed this one yet, why no inquiry? Why does that horse stay 3rd? He clearly fouled Fragoso's horse. :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[the little guy]

Isn't it amazing the incident has gotten ZERO coverage from anyone in the press? If this happened in a "real" sport, it would be story number one on every sports show and in every newspaper. Not just that it happened, but why as well.

This is the perfect example of the incompetence of the NY racing press. I particularly enjoyed " Through the Binoculars " in the NY Post, where Ed Fountaine discusses events from certain races, and doesn't even mention the 6th. No mention in the Daily News either.

As for the non-DQ, a guy breathes on another horse in the stretch and it's a major incident, but crazy stuff on the first turn and backstretch is dismissed. In this incident, I think the stewards inaction during the race means the ultimate decision should not necessarily rest solely in their hands.

[classhandicapper]

CJ,

What was the motivation? I don't know the story.

[cj]

CJ,

What was the motivation? I don't know the story.

No idea, though one would have to guess a woman or money, unless they are brokebackish.

[classhandicapper]

No idea, though one would have to guess a woman or money, unless they are brokebackish.

:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

No one has addressed this one yet, why no inquiry? Why does that horse stay 3rd? He clearly fouled Fragoso's horse. :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

I think all the fouling that went on between the two cancelled each other out. Sort of like offsetting penalties in football.

I mean come on....Fragoso practically tried to knock Espinoza off his horse with his right arm! I'm sure one could say Frags was fighting for his life at that point, but that's for a jury to decide....

I guess we know why Frags didn't lodge a jockey's objection....

[Valuist]

If nothing is done by the stewards my guess is it won't be the last time something happens. Just wait until they are next to each other in the starting gate.

I was watching GP on HRTV at the time yesterday. Did anybody from TVG mention anything?

[the little guy]

I don't agree. I think Espinoza was clearly the aggressor, and anything Fragoso did on the racetrack was a reaction to that, and I'm not even sure he is really guilty of anything other than defending his safety.

[cj]

I think all the fouling that went on between the two cancelled each other out. Sort of like offsetting penalties in football.

I mean come on....Fragoso practically tried to knock Espinoza off his horse with his right arm! I'm sure one could say Frags was fighting for his life at that point, but that's for a jury to decide....

I guess we know why Frags didn't lodge a jockey's objection....

What would you like Pablo to have done? Jump over the rail?

He was in a tough spot, if he pulls the horse up, at 2 to 1 no less, can you imagine the outcry?

Seriously, think about how many people lost money betting this horse in the various pools, including multi-race pools. I doubt the horse wins anyway, but that is really impossible to determine. As usual, the bettor takes it in the @$$.

[cj]

PA, is this (http://www.pacefigures.com/images/cheerleader.gif) you? :lol:

[Buddha]

First off, WOW.

Now, as to what caused it, it may have been Espinoza feeling cut off going into the first turn. It looked like Fragosos horse may have cut over too soon. Either way, what Espinoza did was very dangerous, and unnecessary. Not only did he try to retaliate by bumping, but looked as he was trying to repeatedly put Fragoso over the rail. He had to fight back with his horse and eventually his own arm to keep from being dropped.

I could see Fragoso getting maybe 3 days for crossing over without enough room, or essence taking Espinozas path, and like said, Espinoza should get at least 6 months for his actions in retaliation and aggressiveness.

[PaceAdvantage]

You're jumping to conclusions. I can't offer an opinion anymore? NYRA is only a third of the stewards last time I checked....what about the other 2/3?

I didn't even realize I was passing judgement on NYRA or defending them in any way with my posts. All I said was that these two guys fouled the shit out of each other all away around the track. Obviously, Espinoza looks like he was the instigator....

Espinoza certainly initiated, but Frags responded in kind (way before he tried to use his arm to push Espinoza away).

There were no objections lodged at the conclusion of this race, correct? Why didn't Fragoso claim foul?

[classhandicapper]

>>>PA, is this (http://www.pacefigures.com/images/cheerleader.gif) you? :lol:<<<<<

If it is, I'd like to go out on a date.

[cj]

Relax PA, I was just joking, not even one iota of seriousness there.

Not only that, you are much cuter. Wanna see Brokeback Mountain with me? :lol::lol::lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm very defensive when it comes to being called a shill.....:lol:

[the_fat_man]

Are free replays, with headons, available online?

[cj]

Sort of free at BrisBet, if you are a customer.

[ezpace]

All I want to know is who won when they got back to the Jock's room??

Nakatani/PVAL = draw..

Nakatani/Bailey = Bailey tech knockout

Julie Krone 25 -25 against any gender

Pincay record 150 -0 -0 with anybody dumb enough to try him

[Tom]

I'm very defensive when it comes to being called a shill.....:lol:

But not a woman???:eek: :rolleyes:

[ryesteve]

Are free replays, with headons, available online?
Ditto... this thread has me really curious!

[Figman]

How come the chart doesn't mention the alleged incident?
http://www.tsnhorse.com/cgi-bin/instant.cgi?type=inc&country=USA&track=AQU&date=2006-03-05&race=6

[Figman]

My mistake....had too many beers tonight!

[PaceAdvantage]

But not a woman???:eek: :rolleyes:

Good one Tom! You don't get enough credit for your outstanding comedic timing!

[DrugSalvastore]

The Stewards at NYRA are beyond hope.

Arroyo gets taken down at the start of the week for a clever and VERY
aggressive piece of beautiful race riding. The kind of ride they let JRV got away with in the summer and has got away with twice at GP this winter.

They end the week, by, to the best of my knowledge, not even posting an inquiry into a race where one guy looks like he's litteraly trying to put another guy over the fence.

I know it's hard to get praise and easy to get abuse from the public regarding that job---but these guys are, IMO, proving to be less than competent.

[JustRalph]

I think this illustrates how many people don't really watch what is going on down the backside........... I watched it from the pan shot and really didn't see anything out of the ordinary. The head on was very different........I guess most don't even have access to the head on shots.........

[cj]

The head on is always shown immediately after the race. First they show the normal replay, then the head on. Not many watch though, especially if playing more than one circuit.

[GMB@BP]

if nyra were to go back and look at this wont it show how inept their own stewards are for not doing anything in the first place......i said this sunday night elsewhere that they might give them a slap on the wrist.

[PaceAdvantage]

Here are the names of the Stewards operating at the NYRA tracks:

Dr. W. Theodore Hill, THE JOCKEY CLUB
Carmine Donofrio, NEW YORK STATE RACING AND WAGERING BOARD
Stephen Lewandowski, ALTERNATE STATE STEWARD
Braulio Baeza, Jr., Neil Cutrone, ACTING NYRA STEWARDS

I believe there are only 3 stewards at any one time....one JC, one NY state, and one NYRA....if I am wrong, someone please correct me....

Now you know who to direct your complaints to....

[PaceAdvantage]

if nyra were to go back and look at this wont it show how inept their own stewards are for not doing anything in the first place......i said this sunday night elsewhere that they might give them a slap on the wrist.

NYRA is only 1/3 of the steward group....the rest come from the Jockey Club and the State....

[GMB@BP]

NYRA is only 1/3 of the steward group....the rest come from the Jockey Club and the State....

ok, to clarify, the on-track race watching crew of stewards who watches for incidents race to race.

[aaron]

Pace Advantage-
I don't believe most people distinguish between which stewards are NYRA, Jockey club, and the state.
What,I believe we are saying is that as a group the stewards at the NY tracks aren't very good.

[Indulto]

Where was I when Baeza was completely exonerated in the purported weight scandal fiasco?

I thought he got a bum rap, and I hope he regains his stature, officially, but how does the NYRA explain their questioning his integrity one day and making him a steward the next?

With no mention of the incident in the press, I hereby nominate CJ for the 2006 eclipse award! :D

[JustRalph]

The head on is always shown immediately after the race. First they show the normal replay, then the head on. Not many watch though, especially if playing more than one circuit.

I guess if you are watching on TVG and HRTV........you take what they give you
I have never seen a race re-run on the head on unless there is an inquiry etc

[the little guy]

Baeza was not exonerated, though it's unclear that he did anything wrong, and the list PA gave is obviously dated.

CJ stole this thread from me....by the way.

[PaceAdvantage]

Where was I when Baeza was completely exonerated in the purported weight scandal fiasco?

I thought he got a bum rap, and I hope he regains his stature, officially, but how does the NYRA explain their questioning his integrity one day and making him a steward the next?

The key there is the Junior after his name....that's his son....

[PaceAdvantage]

Baeza was not exonerated, though it's unclear that he did anything wrong, and the list PA gave is obviously dated.

Actually, you're wrong on that...open up a program....I guess you too missed the JR.

I did type the Jr., didn't I?

[the little guy]

Sorry. i wouldn't have known either way...I just assumed it was a dated list. So Braulio Baeza's son is an alternate steward? What are his qualifications?

[cj]

Baeza was not exonerated, though it's unclear that he did anything wrong, and the list PA gave is obviously dated.

CJ stole this thread from me....by the way.

I'm innocent on this one, I didn't see yours first. :)

[the little guy]

There's a lot of finger pointing going on around here!

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry. i wouldn't have known either way...I just assumed it was a dated list. So Braulio Baeza's son is an alternate steward? What are his qualifications?

That I don't know....I assume his qualifications match whatever qualifications past NYRA stewards had to meet....

[cj]

And amazingly (yeah, right), still not a word at drf.com.

[toetoe]

Thanks to the poster that pointed out the replays at calracing.com. However, the head-on shots in So. Ca. skip from the first turn straight to the stretch, and one pan shot was very weird, too. I wonder whether my computer is wacky? I have a problem with nyra, and I wonder ... ? at nyra, no matter which stakes I click, I get 12/31/2004, I think. And as for the soon-after-the-race replays, I can't get to first base there.

[Indulto]

PA,

Sorry I missed the Jr., but the cheerleader costume was great! Where can I get one in X-large?

[chrisg]

Now, as to what caused it, it may have been Espinoza feeling cut off going into the first turn.

I agree w/that assessment Buddha. After entering the backstretch, it looked like Esp put him close to the rail as if sending a message. Then Esp got forced out; then before the final turn, Esp was shoved.

I think both of them deserve days.

[ryesteve]

Ok, I finally got to see the head-on of this race, and honestly, after reading this thread, I was pretty surprised by it. The way I saw it, Espinoza was trying to crowd Fragosa and make him uncomfortable; that was totally legit. Fragosa was the one who started using his horse like a battering ram.

[toetoe]

It's funny how Espinoza could turn his mount 20 degrees or so, keep him in that position, and go straight, like my old Mercury Cougar, woefully out of alignment. Sure, eyeball the other guy from right beside, but don't lean all over him. That was weird.

[the little guy]

Ok, I finally got to see the head-on of this race, and honestly, after reading this thread, I was pretty surprised by it. The way I saw it, Espinoza was trying to crowd Fragosa and make him uncomfortable; that was totally legit. Fragosa was the one who started using his horse like a battering ram.

Poor Fragoso, all he was worried about was being put over the rail.

I think it's deceiving, in that it's easier to see what Fragoso was doing, as there is a lot of distance OUTSIDE of him for it to look as though he is forcing Espinoza's horse out, while there is little distance for him to be forced in. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Espinoza was the aggressor.

[ryesteve]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Espinoza was the aggressor.
It depends on how you want to define "aggressor". I would agree that his ride was VERY aggressive... but from what I was able to see, it was aggressive and intimidating, but not illegal. But hell, I'm no steward... if "riding too close" is considered a foul, then so be it...

Some folks here were making it sound like he came over and started slamming into Fragoso. But from what I saw, it was Fragoso who initiated all of the actual contact.

[toetoe]

Due to my confusion, my post about video was probably unintelligible (imagine that!). I guess I read about it on the forum where the surf ... Anyway, the calracing.com website has an AMAZING video room. Internet Explorer only, but never choppy, which is new to me. You don't have to keep identifying yourself, as on racereplays.com, and you don't have to click today>track>race>play video>right click>play in real player>full screen EVERY STINKING TIME! Now, that way's fine when you want to watch one track's race day in order. But with calracing, you just search by horse name, and it shows pan or head-on, which racereplays.com discontinued for some reason. No Turf Paradise or Philadelphia Park or ______ on racereplays.com? Just try calracing.com. It was a revelation to me. Popup blocking required, at least for me. If I managed that, ANYBODY can.

I recommend it to Fatman, if I may call you that, sir. When I'm in your town, I will search for you by asking every man I encounter, "Are you Fatman?" Whaddaya think? Shot or no shot?

[the little guy]

Both riders got 30 days.

[cj]

Both riders got 30 days.

Pretty weak IMO, especially for Espinoza.

[the_fat_man]

Due to my confusion, my post about video was probably unintelligible (imagine that!). I guess I read about it on the forum where the surf ... Anyway, the calracing.com website has an AMAZING video room. Internet Explorer only, but never choppy, which is new to me. You don't have to keep identifying yourself, as on racereplays.com, and you don't have to click today>track>race>play video>right click>play in real player>full screen EVERY STINKING TIME! Now, that way's fine when you want to watch one track's race day in order. But with calracing, you just search by horse name, and it shows pan or head-on, which racereplays.com discontinued for some reason. No Turf Paradise or Philadelphia Park or ______ on racereplays.com? Just try calracing.com. It was a revelation to me. Popup blocking required, at least for me. If I managed that, ANYBODY can.

I recommend it to Fatman, if I may call you that, sir. When I'm in your town, I will search for you by asking every man I encounter, "Are you Fatman?" Whaddaya think? Shot or no shot?

Thanks for the info. Greatly appreciated.

Now if I could only find a past performance source that doesn't require
all sorts of personal info (SS#, mother's maiden name, etc.) there'd no excuse for not returning to full time play. (Outside of laziness, of course)

[hbeck]

Do you have a souce? I was at the Big A today and heard nothing. Also checked DRF, bloodhorse and google news.

[toetoe]

Portly_One,

Somebody posted the horse-races.net site. That's really the only one from which you can tack together a decent-sized menu of races. One small example:
Baffert had horses in eight of the eleven races at Santa Anita on Big Cap Day, so right there are PP's for eight races.

[the little guy]

Do you have a souce? I was at the Big A today and heard nothing. Also checked DRF, bloodhorse and google news.

Do I have a source?????


I wasn't nicknamed " the ear " for nuttin'.

[surfdog89]

toetoe....... has the right site to get Past performances... as to calracing I believe you can only get that day..... any sites that are free to view replays... Does anyone out there know?

[cj]

Holy shit, at long last, a blurb from the press:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=62592&subsec=2

Of course, it tells you basically NOTHING! (other than nofool has good sources, of course)

[toetoe]

surf, m'dog,

calracing have every horse racing at any track from 1/1/2005 to the present, as soon as it crosses the finish line, on video. So imagine, I can type in Giacomo, see all his races in order and determine that yes, he never was great, and he didn't develop over time. For California tracks, click on a date, and get the whole card.

[surfdog89]

Thanks man.......... did not know that........ cool :cool: thanks again toetoe

[toetoe]

cj,

They got the wrong horse in the article! They said Espinoza was riding Kris' Affair. It was Tsuris.

Hey, what future odds can I get that these two riders will re-enact the KD down-the-stretch whipping battle?

[Figman]

I second the news delivered by The Little Guy.

Additionally, both riders appealed their penalties. Probably a gigantic mistake as the racing commission in NY has in recent months on many occasions upped the penalties given by the stewards and judges at their racetracks.

[the little guy]

I would like to be Fragoso's attorney on appeal. His suspension virtually has to be reduced, or Espinoza's increased, as there is simply no logic for giving the two riders the same penalty. Espinoza was the initial offender, and he was trying, repeatedly, to put Fragoso over the fence. There is little to no question that Fragoso's horse could easily have gone down, either bouncing off the rail, or clipping heels. And, Espinoza continued to do this going into the turn, a spot that every rider knows is especially dangerous to be caught in tight, even more so on the tight-turned inner. It is entirely defensible that Fragoso physically attempted to push Espinoza off him as the two horses entered the turn, as it is once again entirely defensible that he was essentially riding for his life.

Furthermore, Espinoza is quoted by Dave Grening as saying today that "just a moment, I lose my mind a little bit." Having said that he is admitting his guilt, which makes his appeal even more confusing, and thus strengthening Fragoso's argument.

Add to this the failure of the stewards to even post an inquiry after the race. They have already set a precidence that they misunderstood the situation from the start. How, with the benefit of hindsight, they could see fit to penalize each rider equivalently simply defies logic.

[toetoe]

I think I know how Espinoza felt when cut off at the first turn. I've felt like that when roughed up in basketball, soccer, etc., and I always wanted to just run right over and tackle the guy. HOWEVER, it became premeditated in the twenty seconds it took to catch up with PFrag. Then, JE tortured him in a long, drawn-out process. Fragoso would be blameless in the real world, as he had a reasonable fear for his life.

Of course, the welfare of the horses was forgotten in the heat of battle, and I'm sure the trainers are livid.

[Indulto]

Origially posted by the little guy:

Add to this the failure of the stewards to even post an inquiry after the race. They have already set a precidence that they misunderstood the situation from the start. How, with the benefit of hindsight, they could see fit to penalize each rider equivalently simply defies logic.
tlg,

Good point

Now, how might stewards be penalized for incompetent stewarding? People have sued when their horse was DQd, but what can be done if there was no intervention by the fairness police? If the press pursued it as they should have, at least these stewards might have been forced to undergo mandatory vision tests.

The NBA and NFL players associations would be on top of something like this in a heartbeart. Where is the Jockey Guild on this issue? Do other jockeys actually care?

If one or both of the jocks fell and was injured, would the Guild or Track still pay? Have jockey’s ever sued one another?

Tsuris?

[Figman]

Indulto,
I think you should complain to Dr. "G" at the Jockeys Guild. He is a man of honor that would look into this incident.

[the little guy]

Dr G has been ousted.

I know you know that Figman. Your far too connected to be that out of it!

[Figman]

Then write to Tomey Jean Swan or Albert Fiss.

[GeTydOn]

That's the craziest thing I've seen in a race. I think.

I'd like to know why if the bloodhorse reporter was so offended by what happened on Sunday did he wait until the suspensions were handed down Wednesday to report anything about what happened in the race and the lack of an inquiry "for the benefit of the public". I'm guessing this guy must have been one of the "most observers" who didn't notice what happened.

:rolleyes: :lol:

http://http://racing.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=32486

[chrisg]

Espinoza was wrong to go after Fragoso...for whatever reason. But I saw nothing that indicates he tried to put him over the rail. That's ridiculous.

And if you don't believe that, then:

a) Look how much more effort Fragoso used w/his mount to shove into Espinoza's; he clearly used far more force Espinoza.

b) There was plenty of room along that rail.

Fragoso was wrong to push suddenly & forcefully into Espinoza. He was absolutely wrong to shove Espinoza. That was a clear endangerment of life.And there is proof of that.

[Buddha]

After watching the replay again, there was plenty of room towards the rail, but Espinoza was definitely leaning on Fragoso's horse pretty hard, and going into the second turn looks like he cut of Fragoso, or at bumped pretty good as they went into the turn

[cj]

There was room to Fragoso's inside because he knew what was happening and protected himself. Sometimes the video doesn't tell the whole story, and the real story will probably never be put in print.

[andicap]

Litfin, for some reason, did not mention the incident in his weekly wrap-up of races at AQU in this week's Simulcast Weekly.

My question: Is Liftin incompetent enough that he didn't see the incident? That's hardly likely given the hollers that would have gone up in the press box.

Or, more likely if he noticed it, he -- like the daily stiffs -- didn't think it was worth mentioning?

[hbeck]

John Lee just showed the head on replay of that race on the NYRA pre-card show and mentioned the suspensions.

[GMB@BP]

John Lee just showed the head on replay of that race on the NYRA pre-card show and mentioned the suspensions.

there you go, the confirmation is complete!