money taken out of pools?

[so.cal.fan]

A friend at Hollywood Park said they had two incidents of large sums of money pulled off a favorite late, both in maiden races and in one instance it sent the odds from 6/5 to over 5/l.
Does anyone know the details of this, and what are your comments?
Bettors have been complaining for months about the large fluctuations in odds after the horses leave the gate.
They even are attempting to explain it in the track program at Hollywood Park, but these two latest incidents have really got people angry.
The last two, were bet very early to 4/5 and then their was money pulled out of the pool. It seemed that someone wanted a false favorite. Both horses who were bet and then cancelled were out of the money.

[PaceAdvantage]

In NY they are also attempting to explain the tote action in the daily program with a filler entitiled "FINAL ODDS"....LOL

As for the cancellation of big bets, I was under the impression that this was very much a no no. Sure they'll cancel the average Joe's $20 win bet if he wants to, but I would guess some big time heavy hitter who has his own personal mutuel clerk at some far away simulcasting center was responsible for that action......


==PA

[smf]

At LS you can get a $200 wager refunded for sure, but don't know the maximum amount that is refundable. I want to guess $500 but don't know for certain. 'Purple Power' may know for sure.

Obviously, you're talking much greater sums of cash in your instances there.

I agree So cal fan, it's not a good situation.

[baravot]

Seems to me that it's time to lobby, and I mean lobby hard, for some fair and rational rules and guidelines to govern wagering at all tracks. With this sort of hanky panky and the NDWhale stuff going on, why would any sane person even want to wager? The rules should be clearly stated and apply to everyone without exception. Perhaps the steady and consistent exposure of these sorts of shenanigans by careful observers will eventually result in enough indignation and disgust that this game will clean up its act, although my inner cynic says "yeah, right." Where the hell is the leadership in this industry? Are they so jaded and soulless that they just don't give a damn?

[ridersup]

Pulling wagers at the last minute is a common practice at my track, Tampa Bay Downs. Of course a $200 wager in the first 10 minutes will make a 10-1 shot the favorite. Our pools are small and you can watch very easily money coming in and out. Most of the guys I bet with watch the tote especially to see if heavy money is coming in on a non-contender and then pulled out. Of course if it stays in then someone is serious and thats another question. Do you bet a non-contender because someone else does? Probably the best tack to take is to stick with your pick as long as it meets your odds criteria.

[ceejay]

The biggest single ticket that can be canceled at my local track (Remington) is $100. That doesn't mean that a bettor can't have 5 or 10 or 20 of them. Given our pool size (especially in 1/4 horse season) even $100 can make a big difference.

[Rick Ransom]

I recall being denied a refund on a $20 ticket in California once. I guess the same set of rules don't apply to everyone.

[so.cal.fan]

As far as I know, you can cancel any amount of a ticket.
I usually bet on the machines, and on busy days, I will buy my ticket in advance, and if my horse looks bad in the paddock, I will cancel on the machine. I have cancelled $200 win bets.
Years ago, they did not allow it at Los Alamitos, because of the small pools that were being manipulated by insiders/gamblers.
I don't know if that still is true. Anyone go to Los Al?

[Rick Ransom]

Wow, are you kidding? You can cancel a $200 bet on a machine? Well, I guess times have changed! The pool is so big now, I guess it would have to be more like $2000 to affect the odds.

I guess we who are betting remotely are at a big disadvantage since we can't cancel our bets if the odds go south.

[Tom]

This is blanantly wrong-no bets should be allowed to be cancelled at any time for any reason period.
Only time a ticket should be erased is if it was printed in error and caught immediately at the window. Once you walk away, it should be your ticket forever. No changes.
This was the root of a major scandal at Finger LAkes years ago-a scum-bum trainer was betting large amounts early on, on a first time starter, causing a betting "wave" and then cancelling late and betting on another horse-one that was primed to win by any means necessary. He got caught, suspended, went to court, and is back training again. You can't allow anything at all could taint this game to continue-becasue bottom line is you cannot trust trainer, riders, owners, track officials, whoever-if there is a way to cheat, there are those who will do it. Even if it the minority, one or two trainers can ruin this thing.
There is never a justifible reason to cancel a wager.
Any one who has one is lying.
Tom

[JimG]

I have cancelled bets when my horse is giving the attendants extreme difficulty getting into the gate or if he breaks through the gate prematurely or throws his rider at the gate. And, I don't see a thing wrong with that!!

Jim


PS: Tom: If one half of an entry is a late scratch, and it was the half you liked, you don't think you should be allowed to cancel the bet?? Come on guys... there are situations where cancelling is warranted.

[GR1@HTR]

I cancel bets all the time...Mosty because I hit the wrong numbers on the Autotote machine. But my little wagers sure don't put a dent into anything...

[Tom]

I think if half the entry is a late scratch, the oterh half runs for purse money only? Used to be that way in NY.
Maybe not anymore.
Bad handling-I disagree-you have to draw the line somewhere. What's next, bad break? Last weekend, one of the favorites broke through the gate at FL, ran away for 1/2 mile, then got caught and put back in the gate-no vet exam, nothing-horse was the main speed in the race, broke poorly and finshed way back. It was after post time wehn this happened, so how can you argue with those that want to cancel that bet?
Wrong buttons-no problem-as long you do it before you walk away from the windows.
Placing a bet is like a contract-you take a risk and live with it.
More than once I have like the 4 horse at 5-1 and bet the 5 (Duh?) and then found it later-I figure it cost me $2 for stupidity.
Tom

[PaceAdvantage]

NYRA uses AutoTote, and you can't cancel a ticket through a self-service machine after it has been printed. You would have to take it to a mutuel clerk and plead your case.....I guess other states (and other tote vendors such as AmTote) allow you to cancel from a machine after the ticket has been printed?? That's quite an open invitation for sure!! Especially at the smaller handle tracks.


==PA

I agree with Tom no canceling a bet after you walk away period. No one half of entry canceled, no my bet is to small, no my bet is to big, no I punched the wrong numbers, no tracks having different rules, no rules for one guy and another for whales.....nothing. You made it live with it.

[hurrikane]

I absolutely agree with you Tom. Allowing the canceling of bets can do nothing but invite manipulation of the parimutual system. We all make mistakes, price of doing business and it figures in the bottom line. Doesn't matter what business you are in there is the expense you pay for mistakes, it's called waste overhead and you figure it into your bets and what odds you can accept for a play. As long as this is allowed we will never know what odds we are actually getting and that is far worse than losing a bad ticket once in a while.
I have never seem a machine give a refund..I play MD and CT simulcasts..bad punch..you better start begging and you better do it before 5 min before post or they don't talk to you. I think as many bad tickets have won as lost for me...I think of it as the gambling part of the game.

[Rick Ransom]

hurrikane,

I agree with you. That's why my actual betting records always differ from what "might have happened", which is reflected in my database. Mistakes are less of a problem than late scratches for me. Sometimes there just isn't enough time to make the bet on an alternate selection. Also, I don't usually bother to wait until late to bet anyway, since my results using the morning line to find overlays are nearly identical to using actual odds, and the actual final odds are not what we can bet into anyway.

[bdhsheets]

Many years ago I had made an early wager on a horse at River Downs. Watching the horses in the paddock, my horse suddenly reared up throwing his rider. The horse fell to the ground, had all four legs in the air, for a good 30 seconds rolled around on the ground.

Mr. Shmartee (me LOL), quickly dashed (back then I could, ha ha ha) and gladly canceled my $20 WP ticket, relieved, I went back to watch the race and guess who wins by open lengths! Where was this no ticket canceling law back then!!!!!!!!! ha ha ha

Installing such a law would hurt racing more than it would help IMHO. A newbie who just witnesses his horse throwing his jock (hardly ever a good development), goes to change his bet and he can't will likely never return.

What's been missed in this discussion is that most tracks have policies regarding ticket cancellation, especially for large amounts. Here in Chicago, you have to get a mutuels manager to cancel big bets. But the problem arises when you have dishonest track people. Could the cancellations at Holly have occured without insider help on track or off-site facility, of course not. As long as those people are around, fraud is always around the corner.

Regards,

bdhsheets

[Rick Ransom]

bdhsheets,

I've had that happen too, though not in as bizarre a fashion. If I'm just playing for fun for small amounts, I'll usually just hang on to the wrong ticket because of the regret factor. But if I'm playing seriously I try not to let those things get to me. I highly recommend just playing for fun once in a while, because that's probably the reason you got interested in horse racing in the first place. Otherwise, it can become just like any other job.