Internet Gambling Prohibition Bill

[highnote]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=32199

Maybe members of PA ought to work together to write a letter to this congressman to dissuade him from trying to pass a bill that will prohibit internet gambling.

It would be helpful if he would define gambling. I don't think what I do is gambling -- horses, poker, etc. These are games of skill -- just like options and futures derivatives.

Certainly, they can be abused. But then so can junk food.

Maybe it's time a bill was passed that legalized internet gambling instead and allowed the gov to get their fare share of tax revenue.

In any case, if you have suggestions for a letter please post them here and I will be glad to volunteer to construct a letter. Maybe it's time we rose to the occasion and drafted an internet bettors Bill of Rights.
Why let these politicians take pot shots at an easy target like gambling. Maybe it's time they taste our medicine.

[Hosshead]

Bad News.
Here's another link to that story.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20060218/tc_nf/41711

[Dr. Carter]

Send money with your letters, that's what the politicians want.

[kingfin66]

Is it just me, or does it seem as though there is a complete disconnect between those who make laws (Congress), those that enforce them (DOJ) and all the rest of us? These offshore gaming companies are made to sound like illegitimate businesses when in fact they are legally doing business in the countries where they are located. Add to this the fact that the United States is heavily invested in some of these companies - the ones that are publicly traded on the London Exchange. Apparently, the real high stakes gamblers - that would be fund managers - happen to think that some of these companies are good bets.

[kenwoodallpromos]

It's all about money- Govt wants taxes from gaming. The states got like 500 million in 2005 from racing pools.
Govt will allow it if they can tax it- be it internet gaming, booze, prostitiution, or solar energy. Racing is only legal in many states because of the taxes.

[highnote]

Here are some quotes from the link above:



In the MasterCard International case in 2002, a federal appellate court concluded that the Wire Act does not prohibit nonsports Internet gambling.

This partly explains why Poker is thriving. All the people who invested in PartyPoker are going to be real happy if Goodlatte's bill passes.


The BBC has reported that the new legislation could run afoul of a World Trade Organization ruling last August that the U.S. cannot block offshore online gambling sites.

This is the real sticky issue for Goodlatte and all the other proponents of anti-gambling legislation.



Still, Rep. Goodlatte said that illegal online gambling adversely impacts the economy by draining dollars from the United States and serves as a vehicle for money laundering.

Hell, regular banks and casinos can serve as vehicles for money laundering. :lol: Who the hell do they think they're talking to -- a bunch of dim witted morons? :rolleyes: I think the American public is a little smarter than they give us credit for.

Anyone have any suggestions as to what should go into the letter to Goodlatte?

[highnote]

It's all about money- Govt wants taxes from gaming. The states got like 500 million in 2005 from racing pools.
Govt will allow it if they can tax it- be it internet gaming, booze, prostitiution, or solar energy. Racing is only legal in many states because of the taxes.

I have no problem with the gov taxing and regulating it. Let's get it done and quit dicking around. We need some politicians who are going to take some serious action and not a bunch of money grabbing jerkoffs who pander to interests with the deepest wallets.

Some of the legislation we'll be seeing might be an attempt by the pols to distance themselves from Abramoff.

[mainardi]

NO on gevernment regulations... unless you want the feds tacking on another surcharge to your wagers! Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo... :faint:

The minute that the law passed, just about every server that controlled offshore betting houses would crash from the volume of signups. And if you think that the government could stop it... just consider how well they've handled interstate purchases and pornography. The government has done a FINE job of stemming the tide there... NOT!!! :rolleyes:

It's no wonder that the guy can't muster enough votes. We don't need to write our congressman (or c-woman)... the lobbyists with XpressBet, TVG, BRISBET, YouBet -- and every other wagering concern -- are already running full-tilt to remind these politicians that they contribute a nice amount a cash to state's coffers... and that money will be heading to the Bahamas (or some other foreign place) faster than Zany Tactics ran at Turf Paradise.

[highnote]

The opinions in your post are exactly what these pols in DC need to hear.

Unfortunately, what politician is ever going to say he supports gambing?

[mainardi]

The opinions in your post are exactly what these pols in DC need to hear.

Unfortunately, what politician is ever going to say he supports gambing?
The same ones that say they support pornography? ;)

[Vegas711]

The National Football league along with almost every other sports popularity would gone down the toilet if it where not for Gambling. Why do you think that the NFL is playing so many games on thurs night and sunday nights it is becouse there is a huge number of people watching these games becouse they BET THEM.


Gambling is here to stay , what good is it going to do the Gov to pass a bill outlawing internet sports betting etc. this is already illegal, so lets see hmmm ,what we need is another law passed that confirms a law that already is in the books.
It is a negative 42 degrees outside my house maybe my brain is frozen I just don't get it.

Inorder to enforce a bill such as this you would need thousands of people trying to catch the violaters, this is a complete stab in the dark but I would predict that there are hundreds of thousands of people who bet on the internet I wish them luck tracking down billy who bet $ 30 on a college basket ball game last week. Just do not spend my TAX Dollars mr. Senator catching these small time felons, we have more important people to worry about, mr Osama.

[highnote]

I agree Vegas -- there are more important things like Osama. Maybe they figure terrorists are using the gambling sites to launder money. If so, it ought to be pretty damn easy to catch them. There are not an infinite amount of sites on the internet. I'm sure NSA can figure out something.

By the way, keep these good points coming. I will draft a letter and post it here for you all to comment on.

Magna, BRIS and others may have their lobbyists -- but it's still the voters that elect these pols. They listen to their constituents if they want to get re-elected. They ignore them at their peril.

[Vegas711]

Here is one I heard on my evening news, it seems that our Goverment gave to a Saudi Arabia business the contract to guard 6 of our Ports. Hmm where did the terrorists that hit New York come from ? and now we are putting them in charge of guarding the security of our harbors. Talking about being stupid. This I realize is not related to horse racing but it does give a person a whole lot of doubt about any decisions our opointed leaders may make.

[highnote]

Where are the ports located?

[PaceAdvantage]

This I realize is not related to horse racing...

You've got that right. There's talk about this already in off-topic....

[Tom]

It is comforting to know that the real evil facing us - gambling - is being wathced in DC.

God, we could all lose our homes, children, cars.
Somebody has to save us from......ourselves!:(

[Vegas711]

One of the ports is in Philly, can't remember the rest.

[highnote]

One of the ports is in Philly, can't remember the rest.


I can rest easier at night knowing a Saudi firm is protecting a US port.

[Vegas711]

The thing is companies like Brisnet, TVG and all american based internet, phone bet services do pay taxes.How can our Goverment legislate what is legal in another country? What good is a law that you can not enforce? We have laws that make selling drugs illegal but becouse of the great difficulty in enforcing these laws it serves no real purpose except draining tax dollars for building more prisons. Put one in jail another will come to fill his or hers place.


With this new piece of legislation will it be illegal for a racetrack to offer simulcasting? When I go to Canterbury Park and place a bet on Santa Anita I am placing a bet at Canterbury Park thus I am doing nothing wrong but, the wager still needs to be sent to Santa Anita by the employees of Canterbury Park. This law would make it illegal for Canterbury Park to send wagers across state lines the owner of Canterbury Park would be placing bets for me using the internet thus HE would be breaking the law.

Without simucasting racing would be done, this is why a politician needs to think about all the consequences before acting.

[PaceAdvantage]

I can rest easier at night knowing a Saudi firm is protecting a US port.

Sorry to be a hard-ass, but off-topic is the place for this kind of talk....

[AwolAwolAtPA]

...

By the way, keep these good points coming. I will draft a letter and post it here for you all to comment on.

Magna, BRIS and others may have their lobbyists -- but it's still the voters that elect these pols. They listen to their constituents if they want to get re-elected. They ignore them at their peril.

Sat 18 Feb 2006

hi swetyejohn,

I agree that we, as on-line bettors need to send an email and maybe even Snail mail to our Senators and Rep-s

However, to use a 'form' letter, is likely to be dismissed by the receivers as a Spam.

so, EACH person compose their personnal opinion and SEND the email.

so, with this posting, MAYBE, Duane will get in gear and actually, compose the email, find email address, and send it.

------------------------
well, with that said, let me say IMO (InMyOpinion) what should be said:

A. refer to taxes, direct and indirect, paid by PariMutuel industry.

B. refer to many, many honest people who work in the PariMutuel bussines who will be out of job!

C. I have not drank in over twenty years but bet for entertainment every month.

D. --etc-

should NOT be said:
A. NOT reference to religion

B. NOT threaten to move to a legal state or country
---ie, Amsterdam which has legal POT and (I think) internet horse betting.

C. NOT refer to other legal and non-legal drugs but keep to the issue of on-line horse betting!
---ahh, very much related to B

----------------
I am sure many other things could be added to both of the above list but just let this be food for thought while you are preparing your email.

ok, now I must draft that email

aaah, maybe someone could post the link to the government site that has the email addresses.

----------
signed, An active on-line bettor

duane/AWOL
=============

[YoTambien]

Virginia Rep. Bob Goodlatte is the same congressman who has successfully blocked any attempt at passing a bill to ban horse slaughter.

Why is so concerned about unregulated gambling, but is not concerned about the unregulated manner that horses can arrive at slaughter, from inhumane transport to the fact that horses on daily doses of BUTE can be slaughtered and sold for human consumption, is beyond me.

Okay - it's not really beyond me because it is readily apparent that money, no matter the source, is what motivates Goodlatte.

[highnote]

Virginia Rep. Bob Goodlatte is the same congressman who has successfully blocked any attempt at passing a bill to ban horse slaughter.

Good point. Ironic, isn't it.

[Indulto]

California Ponders Offshore Betting Options by Jack Shinar
http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=32254 (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=32254)

“Blocked by jurisdictional problems from going after the perpetrators, chairman Richard Shapiro suggested that pursuing "aiding and abetting" statutes on the books against illegal gambling may be one method of cutting into their effectiveness. The board believes illegal gaming sites are stealing big customers from the tracks and legal account wagering companies by offering rebates.

Shapiro called illegal betting "a very serious problem that is robbing racing of major revenues" and "is affecting every aspect of the industry." He said the CHRB should work with other racing jurisdictions on steps to minimize it.”


SJ,

IMO any approach based on the premise that gambling on Racing is more legal (hence moral?) than other types of gambling is a recipe for disaster, and would be as self-serving as NY OTBs.

It seems to me that interstate wagering via the internet is not being vigorously pursued because it is still too susceptible to hackers and criminals with its greatest vulnerability being transfers of funds in and out of deposit accounts. I don’t know if wagering by phone is less vulnerable, but it appears to provide greater legal authority and enforcement capability.

Federal regulation would likely introduce higher costs and additional taxes, but cooperative nationwide operation by racetracks of off-track wagering sites can’t be put off much longer.

Rather than compete for customers for wager share with the independent ADW operations, perhaps the NTRA should buy them all out to ensure each track gets maximum share of non-tax wagering proceeds. Likewise, the NY racing operation franchise fee could be used to purchase all the NY OTBs and eliminate costly patronage and duplicate management. NY’s continued ability to attract the fair-weather dollar could be optimized through such an NTRA combine which should also implement Steven Crist’s concept of “rebates for all” by lowering takeout and become more competitive with other forms of gambling.


Can someone tell me if rebates are considered taxable income independently of winnings? Local Saratoga government is trying to block elimination of admission fees because it taxes them. Maybe it should consider taxing NYRA-supplied rebates instead and raise attendance in the process.

[highnote]

Indulto,

First, I want to comment on the article to which you provided a link:

California Ponders Offshore Betting Options
by Jack Shinar

Politicians tend to be anti-gambling. So how can racetracks expect law enforcement to go after illegal offshore betting establishments? Politicians seem like they would be perfectly happy if racing and casinos just disappeared.

They can't have it both ways -- help racetracks flourish through increased legalized gambling on their product while at the sametime be anti-gambling.


A recent NTRA task force concluded that off-shore bookmaking is a law enforcement matter but, according to Craig Fravel, executive vice president for the Del Mar Turf Club, difficulties in successful prosecution mean "it isn't easy to get law enforcement interested."

Problem is, off-shore bookmaking is legal in the jurisdiction where it is licensed. About the only way to stop U.S. citizens from gambling off-shore is to act like China and forbid it's citizens to have access to sites deemed immoral. Good luck. What a waste of taxpayer money that would be.

Charles Champion, chief executive officer and president of Youbet.com, which is licensed in California, agreed that illegal wagering is "prolific." He also said the racing industry is "facilitating" the illegal activity and losing customers. "We need to get them back."

"Customer needs are not being satisfied, and those customers are going to go elsewhere to get it," Champion said. "I need the help of the tracks. I need the support of the horsemen, and I need the support of groups like this. We hate to discount our product (by offering rebates), but we need to do it intelligently."

Champion seems to have a good grasp of the situation. He says that he hates to discount their product. Hey Mr. Champion and other racing executives are you listening -- Maybe your product is overpriced?


Jerry Moss, who chairs the CHRB pari-mutuel committee, said he believes that those wagering illegally on horseracing know what they are doing but are probably unaware that off-shore rebaters are taking revenue away from racing and providing nothing in return.

The one argument that someone can make is that the NFL and other major sports do not rely on betting for income. Why should racing?

Racing thrived when it was the only legal gambling game in town. They built their model around gambling revenue. Perhaps that model is no longer relevant? I don't know whether it is or isn't. I'm just making an argument that someone might try to make.


"We need to publicize the fact that, when bettors make those wagers, they are hurting California and the horseracing industry," said Moss.

Again. The reason they are being hurt is because of the foundation the industry have laid. Quit blaming others. Be responsible for your own flock.

Let's assume racing got really popular and fans flocked to the track. Guess what would happen to the illegal offshore bookmakers -- their handle would skyrocket, too.

The racing industry needs a paradigm shift. If they keep doing what they're doing they're going to get the same poor results.

People want to buy the lowest product with the highest quality. Racing fans can watch racing from home and bet with the lowest cost wagering providers.

This reminds me of what the IBM consultant said to a full-service brokerage company when the discount brokers started offering $7 trades. The full-service brokerage was complaining that they couldn't compete with the discounters and they didn't know what to do about it. The IBM consultant said point blank, "You better figure out what to do about it or else you're going to be out of business."

So the full-service brokers focused on offering what discounters couldn't.

Plain and simple, you've got to take care of the customer. Racetracks have been terrible at this. Why? Because for years they were the only game in town and they rode the gravy train right into the ground. Now that they are about to crash and burn they feel an urgent need to take action. Well, how about starting with taking care of the fan and giving them an experience that illegal off-shore bookmakers can not.

I'm digressing.

Commissioner John Harris agreed that offshore wagering is hurting the game's economy, but noted that "racing is a blip on the screen" when compared to the dollars such companies take in on other sports betting and Internet poker. He said it is more vital that racing gets "a carve-out" on federal laws making all Internet gambling illegal that are under consideration.

I think Stronach is smart. I think he foresees the day when legal internet gambling will prevail. He is positioning himself for that day.

Most racetrack executives need to see a huge opportunity here. Illegals are thriving. So do the same thing they're doing and quit complaining. Forget about trying to get a "carve-out" on federal laws. That's a stop-gap measure.

Racetracks need to make one thing very clear: GAMBLING IS NOT EVIL!

It's entertainment for bettors and a service job for providers. And it is TAX REVENUE for the government. The crux of my message would be: "GAMBLING IS NOT EVIL."

INDULTO writes: It seems to me that interstate wagering via the internet is not being vigorously pursued because it is still too susceptible to hackers and criminals with its greatest vulnerability being transfers of funds in and out of deposit accounts. I don’t know if wagering by phone is less vulnerable, but it appears to provide greater legal authority and enforcement capability.

I disagree. Youbet.com seems plenty secure to me. There are so many good ways to address this. Autotote screwed up with the fix-6 scandal. Laziness and apathy were the primary causes of that.

Federal regulation would likely introduce higher costs and additional taxes

I disagree. Lots of industries are regulated and are able to keep costs low.

Rather than compete for customers for wager share with the independent ADW operations, perhaps the NTRA should buy them all out to ensure each track gets maximum share of non-tax wagering proceeds.

One, that would never happen. Two, it totally goes against the free-enterprise system. Competition is what is going to keep costs down and the market efficient. Illegal off-shores are already starting to drive down costs for the bettors and racetracks need to learn new ways to compete. The bettor is going to benefit and so is the racing industry. New opportunities will arise.

Can someone tell me if rebates are considered taxable income independently of winnings?

I think Mike Nunamaker wrote about this somewhere on PA.

Here is how I would handle rebates:

Say you bet $100 and you win $200. So you have a profit of $100. If your rebate is 3% or $3.00 your taxable income would be $103.

Alternately, you could subtract the 3% rebate from your $100 bet giving you a bet of $97. Your win is still $200. And your taxable income is still $103.

I believe gambling winnings and regular income are taxed at the same rate. So I can't see how it matters how you account for rebates -- as long as you do account for it. :D

[Indulto]

SJ,

Interesting post.

You wrote:
'Racetracks need to make one thing very clear: GAMBLING IS NOT EVIL!

It's entertainment for bettors and a service job for providers. And it is TAX REVENUE for the government. The crux of my message would be: "GAMBLING IS NOT EVIL."'

I agree with your sentiment, but one thing I've learned from off-topic threads here is that certain expressions and images trigger automatic defensive reactions and/or dismissal/ignoring. No politician who thinks gambling is evil will ever be dissuaded and open-minded ones shouldn't be distracted from other issues toward which they might be well-disposed.

[highnote]

I agree with your sentiment, but one thing I've learned from off-topic threads here is that certain expressions and images trigger automatic defensive reactions and/or dismissal/ignoring. No politician who thinks gambling is evil will ever be dissuaded and open-minded ones shouldn't be distracted from other issues toward which they might be well-disposed.

You're right about that. The idea is to pursuade, not to put them on the defensive. The only reason people will change is if NOT changing will mean more pain than changing.

If you get the politicians to associate enough negative feelings with their anti-gambling stance then they will have no choice but to change.

The way to change their associations is to show them all the positives in the gambling industry and show them all the negatives associated with making gambling illegal.

So a good place to start is listing all the positives in the industry and all the negatives that would arise by banning internet gambling.

[GMB@BP]

every year this comes up in washington and every year it goes away. I just dont think washington really cares about this, yes some elected officials want to appeal to thier base, but all in all most just dont want to get involved.

This is going no where.

[highnote]

every year this comes up in washington and every year it goes away. I just dont think washington really cares about this, yes some elected officials want to appeal to thier base, but all in all most just dont want to get involved.

This is going no where.

What is going no where? An internet gambling bill that makes sense -- our letter writing campaign -- or both?

[GMB@BP]

What is going no where? An internet gambling bill that makes sense -- our letter writing campaign -- or both?

a internet gambling bill....jon kyle tries every year to get this past, and every year he gets sent away.

[highnote]

a internet gambling bill....jon kyle tries every year to get this past, and every year he gets sent away.


So basically, then the pols are using anit-gamblng to make themselves look good, and all the while they know full well that their legislation doesn't stand a chance of getting through congress.

Is it any wonder rap and poker are so popular. They're both about posturing and bluffing -- just like politicians. No wonder the pols feel threatened by them. :D

[GMB@BP]

So basically, then the pols are using anit-gamblng to make themselves look good, and all the while they know full well that their legislation doesn't stand a chance of getting through congress.

Is it any wonder rap and poker are so popular. They're both about posturing and bluffing -- just like politicians. No wonder the pols feel threatened by them. :D

thats my take, unless their hand gets forced by the WTO or something.

[rrbauer]

Goodlatte wants to prohibit internet gaming to "save" the children.

I suppose one of the reasons for having a lottery in his state (VA) was to "save" the children. And, I guess that all of the new OTB parlors being opened around the state by Colonial Downs (approved by the voters) will also "save" the children.

I wonder which church group got into his pocket?

[Vegas711]

I know several people who place bets via the phone on sports they are not calling an established place of business. They are calling bookies who could care less if what they are doing is legal or not.They bet 20 dollars on a game i even told them that they are about to be busted ( I was playing a joke on them ) they did not give it even a thought , they just bet another college basketball game, so good luck finding george and walter, better get more of those wire taps going.

My question is what % of wagers are placed with individual bookies? 20, 30 % ? This is why Goodlattee is a joke. In the next 5 years I would bet that atleast 70 % of the population participates in some form of gambling and that atleast 5 % will be betting either through office pools or offshore on sports. A local radio show that i listen to constantly is talking point spreads athough they never say to go place a bet the whole show centers on what would be a good bet if recreational gaming where legal, the host on occassion has made the mistake of saying things like " I really needed IOWA to come thru last night".The point I am making is that it is too late to pass laws on internet betting and unless you can get people outside the U.S.A. to enforce your law it is a joke.

[Vegas711]

Goodlatte wants to prohibit internet gaming to "save" the children.

I suppose one of the reasons for having a lottery in his state (VA) was to "save" the children. And, I guess that all of the new OTB parlors being opened around the state by Colonial Downs (approved by the voters) will also "save" the children.

I wonder which church group got into his pocket?

The Question is how many of those millions of lottery dollars are going into his pocket. If you want to find some criminals go to any state capitol, they work under the occupational heading of either Senator or Congressman.

[highnote]

Goodlatte wants to prohibit internet gaming to "save" the children.

I suppose one of the reasons for having a lottery in his state (VA) was to "save" the children. And, I guess that all of the new OTB parlors being opened around the state by Colonial Downs (approved by the voters) will also "save" the children.

I wonder which church group got into his pocket?

Goodlatte whole argument about his concern for the dangers to children by gambling is basically crap. The lottery is an excellent example.

Every child knows that the lottery is a sucker bet, and hence, they choose to spend their precious few dollars on something that actually gives them value.