Forced PolyTrack........?

[JustRalph]

CHRB to Require Polytrack Installation at Tracks

California racing associations that operate meets of at least four continuous weeks would be required to install a synthetic racing surface by the end of 2007 or face a loss of dates, the state's horseracing board decided Feb. 16.
After hearing from Craig Fravel, executive vice president at Del Mar, give a report on progress on the proposed installation of Polytrack at the seaside track, chairman Richard Shapiro surprised the 100 or so at the CHRB meeting in Arcadia with his motion to require all the major racing venues in the state to make the switch. It was approved unanimously. The new regulation must be weighed for a 45-day public comment period before the board can finalize it.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=32227

more at the link

[kenwoodallpromos]

Since i'm on the CHRB email list, I should be sent the exact same information tommorrow.
All I can say is after board Pres John Harris warned the tracks, the board feeling must be that the tracks (SA, BM, and GGF) were still too fast for comfort, as there is bound to be slight fluctuation in the workout/race times. SA Sunday was ridiculously fast. Today some of GGF's 2f splits were under 22 seconds.
I knew way too many horses were getting hurt, but I did not know about the 240 who died. That may be like 500 or so racing cards. At least a few with short fields.
GGF last year blamed short fields on injuries and the weather- this past Feb the horses leaving the state was named, and it was said the tracks performed well during that period in spite of the weather.
Spend the money or close the tracks- I do not care if 1 track per circuit runs all year!
Ca should not get a stiff polyturf like Turfway got a few days ago in the snow!

[foregoforever]

SA Sunday was ridiculously fast.

There were 14 dirt races at SA on Saturday and Sunday. The winner was on the lead at the second call in 10 of the 14; within a length of the lead on 2 or 3. There was only one race in which a horse off the pace by more than a few lengths came on to win.

I don't particularly care about the times per se, but races in which closers - and even stalkers - have little or no chance of winning makes for boring racing and handicapping, at least for me. I might as well be playing Los Al.

SA and Polytrack sounds reasonable to me.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Perhaps you can verify my opinion on how to speed up a track:
Turf- less water, cut more (SA in years past).
Dirt- more watering; seal, or harrow shallower or less (SA Sunday).
Polytrack- more water, less tractor maintenance, and colder weather (Turfway Sunday).
To slow Polytrack or dirt- harrow deeper.
To slow turf- water more.
____________
Horses with healthier legs can race more and fill more races. Reasonable speed on turf or dirt, or Polytrack can accomplish that in decent weather. Then workers' comp, slots, and larger purses can be brought in.
IMO a stable track cushion and surface is credited to the crew. NY,CA, KY, Lone Star, Calder and GP have that. I have not been able to confirm that in the midwest including IL or at TBD. Magna has proven they can groom their tracks for whatever speed they want (especially if they brought in a 2 more inches of dirt).
I bellieve CA will keep slipping back to the old speedballing track occasionally.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"In theory, it would be great if we could ever get all three track surfaces the same. That would be ideal. But I don’t know if that will ever be possible, because there are different climatic conditions at Santa Anita, Hollywood and Del Mar." -1998 Goodrich.
And they are still BSing about thaat nasty So Cal weather screwing up their tracks uncontrolably!
Meanwhile, SA is back to a little slower since I emailed them Sunday and told them to slow it down!LOL!! (I'm sure some trainers reminded them to!LOL!!

[cj]

Why do you need an all weather track in a place where the weather is almost always the same? I hate this polytrack shit...

[Tee]

Just in case,

http://www.polytrack.com/racingmenu.html

[GaryG]

As Valuist posted on another thread, I think everyone should wait until we have more info on the effects of the dust on the lungs of both horses and riders. They just shoot from the hip out west...

[michiken]

I hate this polytrack shit...

CJ, someone pee in your cheerios? :p

[cj]

I think this stuff will change the game immensely, something I'm not particularly in favor of at this time. Not just fot bettors, but the breeding industry as well. There is no doubt in my mind that running on the poly is a third form of racing now, added to dirt and turf.

[sjk]

I stayed away from the September meet to see how it would play but I have been playing the holiday/winter meets as dirt and have had a very good results to date (+66%).

[GaryG]

It has been a real chalk fest with endless small fields and short prices. Starting to look like California with snow. I am thankful we still have tracks like Tampa with big competitive fields. Pretty nice card on Sat. BTW.

[TravisVOX]

I have the Polytrack too... in that it could take over racing. I'm a purist, do we want the Derby run over a Polytrack?

[so.cal.fan]

They are going to get them here in California, regardless.
Most of the horsemen want them.
I'm wondering if the tracks will save a lot of money on maintanence with the addition of poly tracks?
Anyone know?
If they will.......it's a done deal....PERIOD

[Tom]

I think this stuff will change the game immensely, something I'm not particularly in favor of at this time. Not just fot bettors, but the breeding industry as well. There is no doubt in my mind that running on the poly is a third form of racing now, added to dirt and turf.

Need a new set of Tomlinsons.
But, seriously, if you have access to breeding data, Iwould start looking for starts of patterns and exploit them before it gets out. This is one of those times I have posted about - see something twice and start betting it. Long term stats are going to prevent some nice (hopefully) scores now.

[so.cal.fan]

Good point, Tom
So far, I've heard from folks handicapping and betting the current poly tracks, they may just be favoring closers.
Of HUGE interest to me, would be to study video tapes, DVDs of these races as soon as they start and look for patterns.....mainly slow motion strides of the horses doing well, or not so well on this surface.
I expect to be investing in a large TV screen and a set of DVDs to review.
Those with a better memory (younger people) will be able to just watch these races live and have a real good idea, and like Tom points out....do it right away, before the "cat gets out of the bag".

[GaryG]

Good point, Tom
So far, I've heard from folks handicapping and betting the current poly tracks, they may just be favoring closers.
Of HUGE interest to me, would be to study video tapes, DVDs of these races as soon as they start and look for patterns.....mainly slow motion strides of the horses doing well, or not so well on this surface.
I expect to be investing in a large TV screen and a set of DVDs to review.
Those with a better memory (younger people) will be able to just watch these races live and have a real good idea, and like Tom points out....do it right away, before the "cat gets out of the bag".If you can I would suggest watching the Turfway races. This kid Leparoux is an absolute wizard on the Polytrack course, although I think he is simply a fine young rider that can win anywhere. Mike Battaglia will tell you who is GAINNNING GROOOUND. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: That is a way to get a jump on your pals, assuming of course they use the same type of material there. Best of luck.

[chickenhead]

This BLOWS.

[RXB]

I'm having a hard time believing a couple of the responses in this thread, especially when they come from highly intelligent people for whom I have plenty of respect.

Catastrophic injuries occur far less often on the Poly; shouldn't that be the first consideration? Clearly, it is easier on the horses' bodies.

From a handicapping perspective, it is also quite a fair surface; early speed is still useful but not so ridiculously dominant as it is on most dirt tracks. This alone may help to stem the speed-breeding tide that is helping to create all of these cripples and bleeders who can only race a few times before falling apart.

Turfway doesn't have to cancel cards left, right and centre due to poor track conditions. They save a lot of money on track maintenance, and with fresh water becoming an increasingly scarce resource, the huge reduction in the amounts of water required for Poly versus dirt-- particularly in warmer climes and in the summertime-- is a real contribution to the common good.

I hope to see more and more Polytracks in the near future.

[GameTheory]

Polytrack has been used for years now in England, hasn't it?

Personally, I think if it had an effect on the breeding to get more of a balance back between speed and endurance than that would be a good thing.

For those that hate it, why? Just cause it messes up your handicapping? I understand the "jury is still out" argument, but assuming it is safe for both the legs & the lungs why hate it?

[chickenhead]

I don't like the idea of a third surface, that is not like dirt, somehow replacing dirt. I assume the BC will be held at a polytrack at some point (fairly soon is CA goes all poly)...I just don't get it. They wouldn't run the Classic on the turf all of a sudden, why run it on polytrack? Switching to "astrodirt" (thx toe) is just as goofy as switching the turf out for astroturf, isn't it?

If you wanted to balance out the breeding seems like the purse allocation would go just as far if not further.

[so.cal.fan]

Hey, personally, I'm sick of handicapping these blazing speed favoring tracks here in So.Cal. I rarely ever bet except on the turf courses.
I think it will be great fun and a great challenge to start with a fresh set of ideas.
Look, 75% of the people who post on this board are smart handicappers.
You have what it takes to be resourceful and come up with a great new plan.
It may just be really profitable for you.
You all know what to do....do your homework.......use your skills to adapt to this.......might be fun! I'm looking forward to it.

[cj]

I think it is a different sport, that is why. History is important for any sport, how could you ever compare past champions to current ones?

[cj]

Polytrack has been used for years now in England, hasn't it?


Dirt racing, or all weather racing, is an extremely small part of English racing. The meets they do have are the equivalent of a Philly Park or worse.

[chickenhead]

I should say I just realized that if I were running things track and field would still be run on clay tracks....it is possible I'm overly sentimental...for the same reasons CJ hints at above, its a dislocation, and horse racing pretty much relies completely on history and nostalgia to survive. I don't necessarily want it to be a 21st century sport.

[GameTheory]

Hey change happens in any sport. Pretty much every sport is "a different sport" than in decades past. Things evolve, and that can't be stopped. So the question is what changes are good, bad, or neutral? If they were sacrificing some tradition and it only had the effect of lining someone's pockets, it would bug me, but I see positive benefits for both players and horses so I see this as at worst a lateral move. (Unless it turns out it is not really safer.)

Chickenhead, you could argue that what you are saying basically boils down to "it messes up my handicapping". Obviously any change like this is going to help or hinder individual runners, but I don't see why it would hurt the sport as a whole. If Polytrack is better than dirt, even if it is somewhat different (which is the point, after all), you could argue that it "what dirt should have always been" -- to have a surface that is as forgiving/safe and also as fair as possible in terms of running style, etc. The astroturf argument doesn't really hold because astroturf is both non-natural AND less safe for the athletes that play on it and is used just for maintenance and convenience purposes.

In Europe, many people look at our dirt racing as a bastardization because it ain't grass, right? Many people resist change just because it is change but the one rule that never changes is that everything always changes...

[GameTheory]

Dirt racing, or all weather racing, is an extremely small part of English racing. The meets they do have are the equivalent of a Philly Park or worse.My point was that it has been tested for a while now, that's all...

[GameTheory]

I should say I just realized that if I were running things track and field would still be run on clay tracks....it is possible I'm overly sentimental...for the same reasons CJ hints at above, its a dislocation, and horse racing pretty much relies completely on history and nostalgia to survive. I don't necessarily want it to be a 21st century sport.If it relies on history and nostalgia to survive, start planning the funeral. It HAS to become a 21st century sport to survive...

[cj]

Hey, personally, I'm sick of handicapping these blazing speed favoring tracks here in So.Cal...

This just hasn't been true for SA. Here are the Klein bias ratings for the meet:

SA 1/1/2006 25 SA 1/2/2006 200 SA 1/5/2006 229 SA 1/6/2006 129 SA 1/7/2006 133 SA 1/8/2006 140 SA 1/11/2006 50 SA 1/12/2006 80 SA 1/13/2006 160 SA 1/14/2006 114 SA 1/15/2006 71 SA 1/16/2006 83 SA 1/19/2006 150 SA 1/20/2006 50 SA 1/21/2006 180 SA 1/22/2006 140 SA 1/25/2006 133 SA 1/26/2006 100 SA 1/27/2006 200 SA 1/28/2006 214 SA 1/29/2006 167 SA 2/1/2006 175 SA 2/2/2006 100 SA 2/3/2006 167 SA 2/4/2006 50 SA 2/5/2006 250 SA 2/8/2006 217 SA 2/9/2006 100 SA 2/10/2006 160 SA 2/11/2006 200 SA 2/12/2006 214 SA 2/15/2006 117 SA 2/16/2006 86

The lower the number, the worse for speed. Goes from 0 to 300. Most tracks average around 150. The average for SA this year is around 139, so more off the pace friendly than average.

For 2005, SoCal tracks had the following average:

SA 144
HOL 154
DMR 145


I think the SoCal speed thing isn't really true, more myth. It isn't any more speed favoring than anywhere else.

[RXB]

Hey change happens in any sport. Pretty much every sport is "a different sport" than in decades past. Things evolve, and that can't be stopped. So the question is what changes are good, bad, or neutral? If they were sacrificing some tradition and it only had the effect of lining someone's pockets, it would bug me, but I see positive benefits for both players and horses so I see this as at worst a lateral move. (Unless it turns out it is not really safer.)

Chickenhead, you could argue that what you are saying basically boils down to "it messes up my handicapping". Obviously any change like this is going to help or hinder individual runners, but I don't see why it would hurt the sport as a whole. If Polytrack is better than dirt, even if it is somewhat different (which is the point, after all), you could argue that it "what dirt should have always been" -- to have a surface that is as forgiving/safe and also as fair as possible in terms of running style, etc. The astroturf argument doesn't really hold because astroturf is both non-natural AND less safe for the athletes that play on it and is used just for maintenance and convenience purposes.

In Europe, many people look at our dirt racing as a bastardization because it ain't grass, right? Many people resist change just because it is change but the one rule that never changes is that everything always changes...

Good points. Might I also point out to the 'traditionalists' referring to Polytrack as 'Astro-dirt' that dirt-- especially, a thin layer of it atop a rock-hard base-- is not a horse's running natural surface. Grass is.

[cj]

Good points. Might I also point out to the 'traditionalists' referring to Polytrack as 'Astro-dirt' that dirt-- especially, a thin layer of it atop a rock-hard base-- is not a horse's running natural surface. Grass is.

There is no dirt in the wild?

[chickenhead]

If it relies on history and nostalgia to survive, start planning the funeral. It HAS to become a 21st century sport to survive...

We agree on this point in large regard probably...I think many things can be changed for the better without changing the fundamental experience, or dislocating you from the past...I don't want to kill the charm. I don't see polytrack as part of that improvement process, dirt can work quite well, the polytrack seems like a cop-out more than anything, a we're not willing to do the right thing so we'll just change the whole thing, and then undoubtedly find a way to f that up too.

The "fan experience" and friendliness to bettors is the big issue, not the racing surface.

[so.cal.fan]

They slowed up Santa Anita a lot this meet. The horsemen forced them to.
However, due to hot weather of late, it has been getting faster.

CJ,
I can understand your frustration and doubts about this....but fact is, they are going to do it.
You will adapt to it, and adapt well, because you are a smart handicapper.
You can't compare good horses of 100 years ago with the ones today for a number of reasons, at least not on paper.
Here is what I believe:
Let's use an example of 2 40 year old men. Both about the same weight and physical health/fitness.
One man was an athlete in school.....was a very fast runner. Other guy wasn't.
The man who was a fast runner will beat the other man in any race over any surface, sand, dirt, concrete, poly track, etc. 99% of the time. Why?
Because he naturally has more ability. I don't see any difference in horses.
Great horses of the past such as Man 0 War, may not have run as fast of times as horses today, but had he been on the surfaces he would have beaten the vast majority of them. Same in the reverse....take a horse who wins in super fast time, Secretariat for example.....match him against the best horses who ran in New York (Saratoga) at the turn of the century (1899).
Would he have beaten them on the slow surface. You wouldn't even take that bet.....of course he would of.
The best horses will still win over the poly track......differences will be subtle, and that's where our handicapping comes in.......it will make a difference in our winning or losing.

[cj]

SoCal, you are probably right, just getting a bit grumpier as I age! :)

[so.cal.fan]

HA!
Would I be lovin' life if I were your age, CJ.
Wait until you get comfortable and hit a few really bit scores on the new track surface.......that grumpiness will turn into a big smug smile!
:D

[GameTheory]

There is no dirt in the wild?No, there is no dirt. Dirt in the wild is just a myth.

[RXB]

Yep, horses evolved on a section of tilled dirt in the middle of Texas, as opposed to green, lush, temperate islands. And of course, as one would expect from a half-ton animal with spindly legs, they prefer to run on a dust layer atop a hard base rather than something with a bit of 'give' to it...

Back to Poly vs. dirt, from the linked article:

...there were only three catstrophic breakdowns from among 4,479 starters during the fall/holiday meeting from September to December...

Fravel said that 94% of jockeys at Turfway say the track is safer than it was previously and 85% of trainers in Northern Kentucky agreed. He and Liebau both said they received nothing but praise for the composite surface in visits there.

"We couldn't find anyone to complain about it," Fravel said, "and at a racetrack that's amazing."

There was also a previously published stat that horses who had been training on the Keeneland Poly training track averaged 2 starts more per year than horses who were training on dirt. These days, that's about a 25-30% improvement. If you don't like short fields-- well, what's the argument now?

Since pace-biased numbers don't work so well on the Poly, I can understand that some practioners/vendors might not like it for their own personal economic reasons. But they might at least flatly state those reasons rather than dressing it up in "can't compare past champions... lots of dirt in the wild... different sport." ;)

[RXB]

Here is what I believe:
Let's use an example of 2 40 year old men. Both about the same weight and physical health/fitness.
One man was an athlete in school.....was a very fast runner. Other guy wasn't.
The man who was a fast runner will beat the other man in any race over any surface, sand, dirt, concrete, poly track, etc. 99% of the time. Why?
Because he naturally has more ability.

Define "fast" versus "wasn't." The difference in average velocity between a champion and a cheap claimer is maybe 5%. This isn't Olympic gold medallist versus the local fat guy. Footing can make a real difference.

[cj]

Since pace-biased numbers don't work so well on the Poly, I can understand that some practioners/vendors might not like it for their own personal economic reasons. But they might at least flatly state those reasons rather than dressing it up in "can't compare past champions... lots of dirt in the wild... different sport." ;)

It has nothing to do with it for me. I learned to do well on turf with pace, I'm sure I can do the same on poly. I just don't like using artificial surface, seems phony to me.

[RXB]

It has nothing to do with it for me. I learned to do well on turf with pace, I'm sure I can do the same on poly. I just don't like using artificial surface, seems phony to me.

What's phoney about it? Humans innovate; that's what separates us from the flatworm. This seems to be a very successful innovation in a number of ways.

Dirt is generally very biased toward early velocity. Grass is generally biased toward late velocity. Polytrack seems to be rather more evenly balanced and less suited to pace applications.

[sjk]

Pace plays a pretty significant part in my program and as noted above I have had good success using a dirt program on the TP races (214 races bet this winter).

[kenwoodallpromos]

SA 2/4/2006 50 SA 2/5/2006 250.
Many people will have the same opinion of the Polytrack surface as they now do about dirt- that every race, every day, dirt tracks are always the same.
And I will profit no matter what the type or condition because I am learning how to adjust.
Almost 10 years ago, when I began to study racing, I favored the versitle, even fraction horse that could call on the energy it had left when needed.
Whether Skip-away, Bob Lewis' Silver Charm, Victory Gallop, Smarty Jones, Tiznow, LITF, the best of Europe's grass or Polytrack horses, or even Turfway's previous winners, finding the same all-around quality and stamina that have made for "genuine" champions is what I keep hearing is what is good for racing.
$10,000 claimer Smoke Til Dawn set the 6f dirt GGF track record on a sealed track, then finished fourth next out. Later LITF took the record on a track 1 1/2 seconds slower.
Polytrack is no problem for me; I just look for the best horse.

[RXB]

Pace plays a pretty significant part in my program and as noted above I have had good success using a dirt program on the TP races (214 races bet this winter).


But are you trying to create a standardized performance/power number that applies equally to every track?

CJ's numbers, as I understand them, are a combination of final time strength plus early dirt pace strength or late grass pace strength. Poly plays pretty evenly; I'm finding that the Beyer figures by themselves often tell the tale, especially if the horses have established their Poly form.

Now, there are still myriad pace interactions from race to race that can definitely influence the outcome, but unless the present Poly profile changes I don't see a lot of added value in trying to create a standardized hybrid pace/speed number.

[sjk]

I do create a power number that uses pace strength from all of the race segments along with a speed rating. It is developed from data on dirt races and I would not even consider using it on a turf race because it would not work at all. So far so good in applying it to TP racing.

That was a pleasant suprise; I sat out almost the entire Sept meet because I was not sure if I could play successfully or not.

[GameTheory]

It has nothing to do with it for me. I learned to do well on turf with pace, I'm sure I can do the same on poly. I just don't like using artificial surface, seems phony to me.It's not like they just go out in a field somewhere and dig up the soil and dump it on the track. The dirt surface is just as artificial as the poly as far as the horse can tell. If they dye it pink or something I could see the complaint...

[GMB@BP]

I think this stuff will change the game immensely, something I'm not particularly in favor of at this time. Not just fot bettors, but the breeding industry as well. There is no doubt in my mind that running on the poly is a third form of racing now, added to dirt and turf.

not if everyone has it!

[sjk]

I would have to agree with CJ that if the difference were to prove significant it would have a big impact on bloodstock values.

If a sire got the reputation that his progeny were no good on poly and many of the major tracks had poly you might think twice before paying a big price to breed to him.

[RXB]

I'm guessing that, since the basic profile seems to be kind of midway between dirt and grass, sires whose progeny perform with relatively equal success on both of those surfaces might be well-suited as Poly sires.

Just an utterly unproven theory of mine, though.

[JustRalph]

This might be the best thread I ever started? Too bad all I did was a cut and paste.............


Anyway, I like the comments about there being "dirt in the wild" I don't think these horses are anything like those that were in the wild. The wild horses traits were bred out of these guys years ago

[GameTheory]

This might be the best thread I ever started? Too bad all I did was a cut and paste.............


Anyway, I like the comments about there being "dirt in the wild" I don't think these horses are anything like those that were in the wild. The wild horses traits were bred out of these guys years agoGood point -- the horses are artificial, why not the surface?

[bettheoverlay]

I have done better at Turfway this year than I have the past few years. I'm not doing anything different, using Bris PrimePower #s and pace figures. Its way better handicapping on Polytrack than on all the endless frozen, muddy winter track conditions of dirt.

The only thing I hate about Turfway is MikeB's horrible race calls. I know its been beaten into the ground, but can't someone have a talk with him....

[Tom]

Anyway, I like the comments about there being "dirt in the wild" I don't think these horses are anything like those that were in the wild. The wild horses traits were bred out of these guys years ago

Today's horses are more closely associated with "junkies in the alleys" than dir tin the wild! :kiss:

[chickenhead]

If they dye it pink or something I could see the complaint...

Salmon reference, nice.

If the fans like the polytrack then all will be well. If they don't then it's terrible. It doesn't matter why, doesn't matter whether the reasons are justified or crazy. It just seems to me like somewhat of a big risk, let them do one track in CA and see how it goes, don't mandate all of them.

Fans in baseball and football for the most part hate artificial turf...and not really because the players are more prone to injury...they just dont like it, it's not the same as grass and their lizard brains reject it...the reasons don't have to be well thought out or reasonable. Why did people freak out over the new Coke can they tried? Were those reasonable objections? No, but it cost Coke a bundle and they changed it back right quick. Horseracing can't survive those kind of mistakes...there are too many other problems.

If all is well after everything has changed over, then kudos...if not then youve blown it. It just seems risky to me to mandate that sort of thing at the drop of a hat.

[Indulto]

In following the CHRB meeting transcripts and press releases,

http://www.chrb.ca.gov/ (http://www.chrb.ca.gov/)

I get the impression that because Del Mar is already on board with the idea, and considerable support exists for it from influential horsemen led by Richard Mandella (whose success at Santa Anita is unparalleled), the mandate for all tracks to do it is intended to save Hollywood Park as a viable racing venue.

However, Hollywood’s president, Jack Liebau, seems to be digging his heels in at the starting gate on such a plan which IMO suggests that he would prefer to see any improvements performed by the real estate developers two years from now after the horses are permitted to leave.

[RXB]

Fans in baseball and football for the most part hate artificial turf...and not really because the players are more prone to injury...they just dont like it, it's not the same as grass and their lizard brains reject it...the reasons don't have to be well thought out or reasonable.

It would, indeed, take the brain of a lizard to come up with some of the objections to Polytrack that I've read...

Top Ten Reasons to Reject Polytrack:

10. "Catastrophic injuries are a traditional part of our game. If I don't see at least one horse per card caddied out in the meat wagon, I feel like I didn't get my money's worth."

9. "Polytrack is a Saudi/French/Chinese/Russian/Canadian conspiracy."

8. "Think of the loss of jobs in the dirt sector of our economy."

7. Can't think of a #7 reason.

6. "I miss the sound of the horses' hooves. (Oh wait, I never go to the track anyway.)"

5. "There's lots of dirt in the wild."

4. See #7.

3. "They'll still fix all of the races."

2. "It's not pink."

And the Number 1 reason is:

"Now I can't just sit here and bet cheap speed all day!"

[chickenhead]

RXB -- yep, it's always a great idea for a business to ridicule it's customers. I am assuming from your general attitude that you are a high ranking track official? If not you should apply, you'd fit right in.

There are all sorts of valid, low risk high reward options the bettors want that would improve racing, I wasn't aware that the elimination of dirt had moved up to number 1, or was even an issue. Apparently I missed a meeting.

[RXB]

Relax. I's jes funnin.

[toetoe]

Since when does the CHRB tell tracks what surface they must use? Astrodirt on the main, how about Astroturf for turf racing? Never have a rainout with Astroturf. And of course monkeys or robots for riders. With every admission (deducted from the racegoer's bank account automatically), a lottery ticket is thrown in, as well as a pick-six ticket with the highest Beyer fig horses (calculated without human interference, of course) singled. Trackgoers will trade in their autos at the gates for bumper cars and helmets, and rubber walls will be installed in every room at the plant. No alcohol will be served after the first race. No food whatsoever will be served, as no study could ascribe any health value to any track food. No wagering on the longer half of an uncoupled entry will be allowed without a matching wager on the other entrymate. The public will be protected. These people are dedicated to the protection of us bettors, the backstretch workers, and the horses. :lol: Rails will be raised to a height of eight feet, so as to prevent the dumping-over of riders, animate or otherwise. All backstretch addicts --- believe it or not, many exist --- will be weaned off their favorite drug and given a daily dose of methadone, as it has been determined that methadone is safer. Illegal aliens will be imported to work for peanuts as grooms ... whoops, never mind, that part is working smoothly. Fields will be capped at six horses, as seven or more would cause too much crowding, which is dangerous. Every trackgoer will undergo psychological testing, and will be certified as a responsible gamer. Amber Alerts will be flashed on the Jumbotron in lieu of probable payoffs because it saves lives. Who among us dares to admit to not wanting to save lives? Okay, I'm guilty as charged, I guess. :blush: After all, the tyrants ... oops, I mean the people in power wouldn't do anything but the best for us, would they? I guess I'll just love it or cease to responsibly game on it. God Bless America. :jump:

[so.cal.fan]

:D

Come on, Toetoe....stop reading Tom's posts........ :lol: :lol:

[GaryG]

Kent Desormeaux is leaving California soon and Hollywood Park will probably be torn down in favor of projects. Will the last horseplayer leaving CA please turn out the lights?

[Tom]

The only thing they should be saying about what horses run on is NOT DRUGS.

This is probably a little diversion from thier lax enforcement against known druggies.

[so.cal.fan]

"Will the last horseplayer leaving CA please turn out the lights"?


:(

[toetoe]

I guess the fairs and their horses are not worthy of "protection." Maybe one breakdown at a fair is a spate, given the two-week duration. Homogenization costs money, and caring can only go so far. By the way, have BM and GGF had a rash of breakdowns, EVER? Even in the early '80's when BM took that free junk dirt from Jefferson School?

[Valuist]

I wish Gulfstream had been running their meet this year on Polytrack. I've had a much better meet at TP than GP this winter. I've definitely been betting TP more than in other years. Love the idea there's never slop or mud.

[Indulto]

My understanding is that the real issue motivating use of Polytrak in CA is short fields. Much has been made recently of AQU’s racing secretary carding races in some less traditional manner to achieve larger fields. Exactly what is he doing and could it work in CA?

[falconridge]

[... N]o study could ascribe any health value to any track foodAnyone who eats racetrack food MUST be a gambler!

--F. Dolor de Estómago
Dueño (ret.), "Burrito de un Día" Restaurante, Los Hipódromos de América

[kenwoodallpromos]

FYI Race card- Today's GGF has 5 claimer/MCl 3 or 4+up, $8,000-$12,000; and another similar at $19,000. I have seen sone tracks some days where All races were F 3+up 6f.
I propose something like this=
Turf, 3+up claimer, 1 or 1 1/16 mile; NW3L; must never have won on the turf.

[Indulto]

KW,

I like your proposal. Seems like that approach would provide incentives for distance changes as well as surface changes.

[kenwoodallpromos]

From my viewpoint I see turf now as for
"turf horses" and a grass workout. Trainers are reluctant to switch and will go back to dirt after only 1 try vs. winners on turf.
So you will have turf maidens vs. dirt horses who are old or sore or haven't won on dirt in a long time- maybe won a maiden and 2 low dirt claimers but are totally unproven on turf. Might even get a good horse that finished up the dirt track out of the 8 hole after failing to get the lead!

[kingfin66]

I think it is a different sport, that is why. History is important for any sport, how could you ever compare past champions to current ones?

All sports change. The major sports, basketball, football and baseball are nothing like they used to be. Why should horse racing be any different?

[kenwoodallpromos]

GGF- 1 breakdown Saturday at the 3/16th pole; 2 today at the 3/16th pole and 1 at the 3/8th pole. Sealed track, very little rain. Little rain expected today or tommorrow. This is what they did last winter when they claimed they had to seal it because it rained so much and blamed that on injuries- we get maybe 5 days per year of more than 1/2" of rain- the rest of the sealing is Stronach's excuse to speed up the track.
Baze yesterday lost several at the 3/16th pole.

[RXB]

My understanding is that the real issue motivating use of Polytrak in CA is short fields. Much has been made recently of AQU’s racing secretary carding races in some less traditional manner to achieve larger fields. Exactly what is he doing and could it work in CA?

"Less traditional" means increasingly cheap conditioned claimers and shorter and shorter distances. Card a 9f $40,000 open claiming race for older horses and you get six starters. Card a 5.5f NY MSW or $15,000 N2L conditioned claimer and the field overflows.

:ThmbDown:

[Indulto]

RXB,

Do you think that will continue when they start using the main track again in April?

Do you think people are betting these races instead of races at GP and SA, or in addition to them?