Nuclear energy questions

[highnote]

This quote was in an article on Yahoo.

"Tehran had asked for a removal of all surveillance and monitoring equipment linked that went beyond its basic obligations as a signatory of the NPT in a letter a week ago to IAEA head Mohamed ElBaradei. "

My question is, do all countries who have nuclear reactors have surveillance and monitoring equipment attached to their reactors?

If not, how do we know these countries are not using their Uraniam for warheads?

[twindouble]

This quote was in an article on Yahoo.

"Tehran had asked for a removal of all surveillance and monitoring equipment linked that went beyond its basic obligations as a signatory of the NPT in a letter a week ago to IAEA head Mohamed ElBaradei. "

My question is, do all countries who have nuclear reactors have surveillance and monitoring equipment attached to their reactors?

If not, how do we know these countries are not using their Uraniam for warheads?

It doesn't matter to me who gets the bomb, our intelligence tells us who are enemy's are so any strike here or abroad of any kind will spell doom for those involved along with any state that sponsored it in anyway. There's no way we can prevent those that want to do us in from getting what they want to attempt it. Take North Korea, if they lob one at the south, like I said, that country will be gone shortly after, that's a fact of life. Will it spark a world war, not by a long shot, so it's my opinion our borders are the biggest threat to our security and our dependence on others for our energy. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out for crying out loud! We have greater weaknesses within this country than we do on a military level.


T.D.

[Tom]

I guess it doesn't really matter as long we have their coordinates....for the missle strikes.

The monitors are for those willing to play with us...the coordinates for those who don't. I think they are a convenience, but we don't really need them if we are willing to send it in.

Curious as to whether OURs have them or not.

[highnote]

I guess it doesn't really matter as long we have their coordinates....for the missle strikes.

The monitors are for those willing to play with us...the coordinates for those who don't. I think they are a convenience, but we don't really need them if we are willing to send it in.

Curious as to whether OURs have them or not.


Nah. All those Chinese, French and Russian satellites up there are for scientific research. I'm sure their aim is to serve the greater good. :D

[lsbets]

I think the monitoring only goes to those countries who are not known to be nuclear military powers. Not much point in monitoring us, Russia, China, France, Britain, Israel, Pakistan, India, etc ..... because everyone knows all of the above already have nukes (okay, so Israel doesn't acknowledge it, but they don't deny it).

BTW - I don't think the biggest danger in Iran having nukes is them deciding to heat Israel up to 9000 degrees. I'm not sure even Amendadadadadadhashasljofj would be that stupid. But, they could use it as a great deterrant against retalitory action if they openly support terrorism to a larger degree than they do now.

[Light]

The only country who has used Nuclear weapons on a civilian population is the United States.Spare me the defense of that action.We tell other countries they cant have nukes while we spend billions furthering our Nuclear technology. You really think these other countries are stupid enough to respect a blantant hypocrite?

[kenwoodallpromos]

The only country who has used Nuclear weapons on a civilian population is the United States.Spare me the defense of that action.We tell other countries they cant have nukes while we spend billions furthering our Nuclear technology. You really think these other countries are stupid enough to respect a blantant hypocrite?
_______
Yes they are that stupid!
Beside, the only country to have nukes used against it used Kamikazees- They supported suicide bombers! Think about it, and so should Iran! :cool:

[lsbets]

The only country who has used Nuclear weapons on a civilian population is the United States.Spare me the defense of that action.We tell other countries they cant have nukes while we spend billions furthering our Nuclear technology. You really think these other countries are stupid enough to respect a blantant hypocrite?

Okay, I'll spare you the defense of that action and instead just suggest that while you may have chosen the moniker "Light", in reality, you're pretty Dim.

[DJofSD]

Of coarse, the U.S. should have just waited to see what the German heavy water experiments would have gone, or, wait for the Japanese to fully fund their program and explode more of their nuclear bombs. You did know the Japanese had exploded a nuke, didn't you?

[kenwoodallpromos]

"http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/nuke/". WOW!

[Bala]

Yea but...

Has Japan released a statement that they wish to annihilate Israel?

[Lefty]

light, it's getting harder and harder to figure whose side you're on...

[highnote]

"http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/nuke/". WOW!

Thanks for the link. I did not know that. It makes sense. I'd lik to read some other sources. But it sounds reasonable.

Also, during WWII Japan was considering invading the United States somewhere in either Oregon or Washington. They felt they deserved a piece of the country. Their feeling was that Europeans got their share of the US so why not them?

[Light]

My point is that the U.S. telling other countries do as I say not as I do is not gonna fly.

[highnote]

My point is that the U.S. telling other countries do as I say not as I do is not gonna fly.


Light,
I agree that is how other countries see it.

However, I also think that the world is a dangerous place and if we want to make it safer we need to keep nukes out of the hands of as many people as possible.

It's an uphill battle. J. Robert Oppenheimer, a key scientist involved in the design of the first ever nuclear bomb and witnessed the detonation of the first test bomb, said that a line from the Hindu scripture the Bhagavad Gita came to mind when he saw the bomb explode:

"I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

The bombs dropped on Japan will probably not be the last nuclear bombs dropped on a city, in my opinion. It would not surprise me if a nuclear war erupts someday.

I hope it never happens.

[chickenhead]

You really think these other countries are stupid enough to respect a blantant hypocrite?

Do you really think countries make the decision as to whether or not to build a nuclear bomb based on how much they respect us? It's about power Light, they want more power. And you think we should make ourselves less powerful in order to dissuade them from wanting more themselves.

It doesn't work that way, it would be nice if it did, and there are certainly things we can do to make the world a better place...but letting everyone have the bomb, or somehow "losing" our ability to have them isn't part of it. Pandoras box is opened, and we'll be dealing with this threat for a long time. Can't stick our heads in the sand.

[highnote]

http://www.randomuseless.info/vacation/instrumentation/instrumentation.html

Here's an interesting link to a study about the radiation levels today at ground zero of the first nuclear bomb test.

I have the same radiation monitor as in the photo. I took my radiation monitor to Minsk, Belarus about 5 years ago. Minsk is not too far from Chernobyl. I wanted to see if there was an elevated radiation level.

I'm happy to report I did not find any dangerous radiation levels. I was exposed to much more radiation by flying at high altitude in the airplane across the Atlantic.

[Tom]

light, it's getting harder and harder to figure whose side you're on...
No it's not.

[Tom]

My point is that the U.S. telling other countries do as I say not as I do is not gonna fly.\

If you don't see the difference in US having nukes and Iran, you are beyond talking too.

[Tom]

Of coarse, the U.S. should have just waited to see what the German heavy water experiments would have gone, or, wait for the Japanese to fully fund their program and explode more of their nuclear bombs. You did know the Japanese had exploded a nuke, didn't you?
And Hitler tried to deliver nuclear fuel to them late in the war.

[twindouble]

\

If you don't see the difference in US having nukes and Iran, you are beyond talking too.

The way I understood it, Japan was close to having the bomb but didn't have the heavy water or the enriched material. Our bombing set them back and they dropped the ball as a result. We were at their door step so priorities changed. Just prior to Germany's fall a sub was loaded with heavy water and the material they needed and other advanced technology along with some top Japanese Brass. That sub was on route to Japan when Germany capitulated and the commander of that sub, either had the Japs killed or they committed suicide. He surrendered to us in open sea and the sub docked a New England port and the material was used to help us develop the bomb.


Granted the people that are in control in Iran are nut cases but like I said, it would be suicide to use the bomb anywhere. They have a hell of lot more to think about than we do when it comes to survival. Plus Israel will not let it's guard down. Beside, it won't be long and we'll set them back many years anyway, they have that to think about as well. Like I said, we have more internal weaknesses to be concerned about, here and abroad. ESP our boarders and weeding out those that have infiltrated every aspect of our society, plus those that just don't get it when it comes to our security. :bang:

T.D.

[twindouble]

I would like to add one more thing. The question of weather Truman did the right thing dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki can be debated. Personally, I would have done whatever I could to prevent it, again that's debatable as to weather we could have convinced them to surrender. Most historians suggest it would have taken an invasion that would have taken many more American lives. Plus the Russians were at Japans door step as well, so if we didn't act quickly as was decided we would have had to deal with the Russians. :bang:


T.D.

[Tom]

The japs were not open to surrender - they were fighting to the death, for no reason. Any continued invasion would have killed untold thousands on both sides. The bomb saved lives.

It is easy to sit back now, 60 years after the fact and second guess, but when you are doing that, the alternative choice - sending tens of thousands to bloody graves - is not your alternative. You cannot pssible know the agony Truman faced - no matter what he did, it was going to be horrible.
Repsec the man for having the guts to make it and stand by it.

[twindouble]

The japs were not open to surrender - they were fighting to the death, for no reason. Any continued invasion would have killed untold thousands on both sides. The bomb saved lives.

It is easy to sit back now, 60 years after the fact and second guess, but when you are doing that, the alternative choice - sending tens of thousands to bloody graves - is not your alternative. You cannot pssible know the agony Truman faced - no matter what he did, it was going to be horrible.
Repsec the man for having the guts to make it and stand by it.

I'm doing no such thing. Read again what I said. Either you agree or don't agree, that's not hard to say, is it? Anyway I'm tired of nipping around the edges here on this forum, you all are just to smart for me. :p :bang: :lol:


T.D.

[Light]

\

If you don't see the difference in US having nukes and Iran, you are beyond talking too.

Just what is it about Iran that has shown them to be a threat to the free world?

[twindouble]

Just what is it about Iran that has shown them to be a threat to the free world?

They support every radical fascist murdering sucking scum bag in the middle east and through out the world.

Is that clear enough!




T.D.

[lsbets]

Just what is it about Iran that has shown them to be a threat to the free world?

I suppose you will claim that the groups that they support like Hezbollah and Hamas are not terrorist groups?

[Lefty]

light says: My point is that the U.S. telling other countries do as I say not as I do is not gonna fly.
_________________________
We used nukes to end a terrible war. We were at war with a nation that vowed to fight to the death of every man, woman and child. And they were on the verge of developing their own bomb. Iran has publicly threatened Israel and the U.S. so we cannot allow them nukes. light, your point is specious.

[Light]

I suppose you will claim that the groups that they support like Hezbollah and Hamas are not terrorist groups?

Wasn't that one of the convenietly false accusation by Cheny regarding Iraq.They have ties with Al-Queda.

BTW. The U.S. has sponsored terrorism in various parts of the world and has lifted a ban on assassinations since Bush has taken office. What's your point?

I have no respect for any right wing argument that says you can't do it but I can and must cause I'm stronger than you .Might don't make right.

If someone like Jesus preached peace and then joined the Roman Empire's side,you think there would be Christians today?that's equivalent to..

The U.S. tells everyone to not build Nuclear weapons,while escalating theirs and expects cooperation.

As a leader of the free world,you lead by example. Not saying the U.S. should get rid of it's nukes. But not escaling their Nuclear program to unprecedented levels would be a start.

[Lefty]

yeah, light, we should agree to get rid of our nukes. You think others would? As the leader of the FREE world we have an obligation to keep it as safe as possible. That includes keepong nukes out of the hands of those that threaten us and others in the world. Your way is lunacy.
BTW, Harry Truman was no rightwinger. Kaboom!
And it has not been proven Iraq had no ties to AlQueda, quite the reverse but you leftists keep saying no to facts.

[chickenhead]

As a leader of the free world,you lead by example. Not saying the U.S. should get rid of it's nukes. But not escaling their Nuclear program to unprecedented levels would be a start.

Why are you so focused on the US in this? Pakistan did not want nukes because of us, they wanted them because of India, they wanted to be a regional power. Our nuclear program and its size has little to nothing to do with anyone else wanting them. We could get rid of everything tomorrow, Iran could care less.

[twindouble]

yeah, light, we should agree to get rid of our nukes. You think others would? As the leader of the FREE world we have an obligation to keep it as safe as possible. That includes keepong nukes out of the hands of those that threaten us and others in the world. Your way is lunacy.
BTW, Harry Truman was no rightwinger. Kaboom!
And it has not been proven Iraq had no ties to AlQueda, quite the reverse but you leftists keep saying no to facts.

I'm out of here! You can have your freaking private conversations without me butting in, Enjoy!



T.D.

[lsbets]

Okay Light - another non-answer. So, I'll ask again (and you won't answer again, its like a merry go round talking to you).

Would you say that Hamas and Hezbollah are not terrorist groups? Are you saying that Iran does not support terrorism?

[kenwoodallpromos]

FYI Light- You may not be aware of this, but the Roman Empire forced the western Christians to join with them (emperor Constantine). That is the root of the name "Roman Catholic Church" came From. And that was the root of the "HOLY Roman Empire" came from, of which my ancestor Charlemange was a leader.

[chickenhead]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=78985


This part is my favorite:

"Those who insulted the prophet should know that you cannot obscure the sun with a handful of dust. The dust will just get back and blind your own eyes," he said.

The crowd replied to his remarks with "Death to Denmark" slogans.

Have we ever attacked anyone over cartoons Light? Don't you consider that just slightly insane?

[highnote]

"http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/nuke/". WOW!


http://www.oweb.com/inter/story/0213202006_intJapan-Nucl.asp

Tokyo police raid maker for



Tokyo police raid maker for exporting nuclear-related machinery to China, Thailand

TOKYO (AP) - Japanese police raided a precision instrument maker on Monday, a company official said, amid media reports the firm illegally exported machinery to China and Thailand that could be used in uranium enrichment.

Investigators raided the headquarters of Mitutoyo Corp. on Monday morning, according to a company official who refused to be named, citing internal regulations. The official said she could not provide further details, but said the company was ''cooperating fully.''

Mitutoyo Corp. is suspected of exporting two three-dimensional measurement machines that can be used for uranium enrichment - a technology that can produce nuclear fuel or bombs - to subsidiaries of Japanese firms in China and Thailand in 2001, according to a report carried Sunday by the Yomiuri Shimbun, Japan's largest daily.

Tokyo police said they could not disclose any information on ongoing investigations.

The three-dimensional measurement device, which is generally used to spot deformations on a range of equipment, cannot be exported without government permission because it can also be used in uranium enrichment, according to Mikio Aoki, an official at the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry.

Aoki said he was not authorized to speak on the allegations against Mitutoyo, but was unaware of any previous cases of illegal export by the company.

[Tom]

\

If you don't see the difference in US having nukes and Iran, you are beyond talking too.

I was right. Enough time wasted on this guy.

[Light]

Okay Light
Would you say that Hamas and Hezbollah are not terrorist groups?

Hezbollah? Definetly not. Hezbollah emerged when Israel invaded Lebanon in the 80's. I recall when Iraq invaded Kuwait,it was an outrage and we had the Gulf war. Israel invaded Lebanon and the only people to speak out were Hezbollah. They are heroes to the Lebanese people because they drove the Israeli army out of southern Lebanon.Recently Syria was criticized for overstaying its welcome in Lebanon and they got out. Israel was never welcomed,and no one said a word during their 20 year occupation of southern lebanon.

Hezbollah's activities are confined to protecting Lebanon.They also help provide schools,hospitals and social services in Lebanon as well as securing its borders from Israel. They don't seek to uproot Israel and do not organize raids into Israel as long as Israel stays out of Lebanon.

Hamas? Yes. They emerged in the late 80's as part of the Intifada.Their goal is the liberation of Palestine. They grew out of Israel's brutal treatment of Palestinians in violation of every human right on the planet. They have confined their attacks on Israel and the surrounding territories. They have never attacked the U.S. outside their region.

[Tom]

Like the human right to strap on a bomb and board a bus?

[lsbets]

Interesting take on Hezbollah Light. Lets look at a few of the attacks they have carried out:

1) The Marine barracks bombing in Beirut that killed over 240 of our Marines.
2) The hijacking of TWA flight 847, where a US Navy soldier was murdered.
3) The rampant kidnapping of Westerners in Beirut during the 1980s, including several Americans.
4) The 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Argentina and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish Community Center in Argentina.
5) In the 1990s, Singapore stopped a Hezbollah plot to attack American ships traveling in the straights of SIngapore.

Both the United States and the European Union have labeled Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Three senior member of Hezbollah are on the FBI's most wanted list.

You say they confine themselves to protecting Lebanon and they're just a bunch of misundertood guys who really just want to build schools and hospitals.

Thank you for answering though. Everytime you actually do reply to a question, you reveal yourself just a little bit more.

[lsbets]

Oh yeah, don't forget the Khobar Towers bombing in Suadi Arabia. They must have just wanted to build a school there. :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

Dude, don't you get it? They're "freedom fighters" just like our founding fathers in the Revolutionary War......


Sheesh.....some people are SOOOOOOOO dense.......:bang: :bang:

[ljb]

Dude, don't you get it? They're "freedom fighters" just like our founding fathers in the Revolutionary War......


Sheesh.....some people are SOOOOOOOO dense.......:bang: :bang:
Speaking in a broad sense you are correct. But in reality they are radicals and should be eliminated.

[Light]

LS

The Hezbollah incidents that you cited are all in connection with Lebanon. They are also all during the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon.

If you are talking about the time of Israeli occupation,then yes Hezbollah's style also includes terrorist style combat.

Israel was forced out of lebanon six years ago. So I assumed you were talking present tense.Presently there is no need for them to perform acts of terrorism.

Israel performs more acts of terrorism than Hamas and Hezbollah combined on the Palestinian people. Why is a country that uses terrorism as a way of life allowed to have nuclear weapons?In the words of Scott Mclennan: Israel has a right to defend itself.

And what rights do Palestinians have who still posess the deeds to their homes in Israel have? Absolutely none. So who do they elect? Hamas. Now you know why.

You consider them terrorists. I say they are doing exactly what Americans would do if a greater foreign power occupied us and treated us the way Israel treats Palestinians.

[lsbets]

Light, one thing I am not interested in is gettin into the "plight" (although it is self inflicted) of the Palestinian people - a people who have never had a country, who celebrate suicide bombings, and encourage their people to raise their children to be suicide bombers. I think we all know where you come down on that issue, and you regularly romanticize the death cult that is Palestinian "culture".

The issue is not a question of Israel, it is about Iran acquiring nuclear weapons and Iran's relationship to terrorism. Of course, you would rather turn the issue into one about Israel, and I doubt that would surprise many of us.

You seriously need help Light, you are one twisted dude.

[Light]

Palestinian people - a people who have never had a country


That is the most ignorant statement you could make about the middle east. Where do you think Palestinians got their name from? Do me a favor. Stop calling me names and use that time to open up a history book, Look at a map before 1948. Do you see a country named Palestine? Now find out how come Palestinians don't live in their own country anymore and it is now called Israel.You just may learn something. But $2 says you don't care to know the truth.

Your above statement proves how utterly ignorant you are. I :blush: for you

[lsbets]

Prior to 1948 the region known as Palestine was a British Territory. Prior to that it was part of the Ottoman Turk Empire. Throughout history, the region known as Palestine has bounced back and forth between different empires. At no time in history has there ever been a nation of Palestine.

Seriously Light, look it up. You can call me ignorant if you want, but the "ignorance" I posted is the truth. Debating the state of the Middle East with you is beyond pointless, I think just about everyone knows how you look at things there. The illusion of Light the peace lover disappeared a while ago. Your admiration for terrorists is actually quite amusing, its a good thing you get to do it from the safety of our nation, I don't think you'd be tough enough to survive anywhere else.

[Bala]

For an exhaustive historical perspective on the modern crises
I suggest;


Whose Promised Land? By Colin Chapman
Subtitled; the continuing crises over Israel
and Palestine. ISBN # 0-8010-6441-4


BTW: King Hussein of Gordon offered the Palestinians
a part of his country back in the 1960’s. The Palestinians
refused the gracious offer.

__________________________________________
Outsource congress to India.

[Light]

Prior to 1948 the region known as Palestine was a British Territory. Prior to that it was part of the Ottoman Turk Empire. Throughout history, the region known as Palestine has bounced back and forth between different empires. At no time in history has there ever been a nation of Palestine.


You need a history lesson.

The Ottoman Empire lasted from 1300 to 1922.A vast area that included around 30 countries,including Palestine. It offered opportunity and security to its inhabitants. It did not deny their heritage nor existance as you would hope.

When the OE began to disintegrate,all of these territories were mandated and eventually became independent countries.We're talking about countries like Greece and Hungary,to Algeria and Libya.Yes the Arab territories were British mandated but they all retained their own culture and identity. No one was trying to take it away from them or deny their existance. Countries like Turkey,Egypt and Saudi Arabia became independent.

Only one country was held back from becoming independent. And that was Palestine. That was due to the Zionists pressure on Britain to create a Jewish state in Palestine.

The point is that up to 1948,allthough Palestine never got clear of its mandate from Britain,it had enjoyed a heritage of several hundred years of cultural existance during the Ottoman reign and several hundred in other dynasties before that. Independece during the Ottoman days was not what you wanted. You wanted to be part of that security umbrella.

Be it Syrians or Palestians or Greeks,they didn't develop their idividuality when they got permission from the British to be independent. They've had it for centuries. And their land too.

If the Zionist did not lobby Britain for Palestine and make them hold on to the mandate till 1948 ,Palestine would have become independent like every other country from the Ottoman empire and there would be peace in the Middle East today.

[lsbets]

Now Light, lets review my statement that got you so uppity, and your replies which followed:

I said there was never an independent country of Palestine at any point in time.

You said I need a history lesson, you're embarrased for me etc ....

I expounded on how the region of Palestine had been under the control of various empires throughout history and there was never an independent country called Palestine.

You again said I need a history lesson, and then went on to tell me how various empires controlled the region, and there would have been an independent country called Palestine if it weren't for the Zionists and the creation of Israel, but the Palestinians, despite not having an independent country had developed a culture in the region.

Hmmm - it would seem that you acknowledge that there has never been an independent nation called Palestine. That seems to really bother you and brings out a series of rather irrational responses where you try to say there was one while acknowledging there wasn't one, and then blaming that on Israel.

When Israel was first created, the plan called for the creation of a second nation called Palestine. The Palestinians summarily rejected that offer and vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. They did not vow to drive the Zionists into the sea, they vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. Lots of Palestinians left Israel - contrary to Palestinian propoganda, they were not driven out, they said screw this, we ain't living with the Jews, and they left. SO what right do they have to the old deeds to their land that they up and left? None.

Now, I have a suspicion that you are Palestinian. I know this is an emotionally charged issue for you. The Palestinians have had countless opportunities since 1948 to have peace and a home land, yet have not taken advantage of those opportunities. As, I believe it was Gold Meir who said this, there will not be peace in the Middle East until the Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jewish children.

I stand by what I said, and it is accurate - there has never been an independent nation of Palestine, Palestinian culture is sick and twisted, it worships death, and encourages parents to raise their children to be suicide bombers. It is a death cult.

Personally, I think Israel should leave the West Bank (which BTW is land they took from Jordan in self defense, not the Palestinians). Get out, put up an impenetrable wall, have the best border security in the world, and let the Palestinians fend for themselves. It is not possible right now to deal with the Palestinians and to live peacefully side by side with them.

But again, the issue in this thread is Iran's having nukes, which you seem to think is a good idea, and now I think we know why you think so.

[Tom]

The Jews were living in Jeruselem in the year 0. It's not like they showed up in the year 1948.

But to keep to current events, how many Jews strapped on bombs and boarded buses, or cafes? The palestineans keep whining about Israeli retribution - then stop the homacide bombings. Israel kills in response to terror. Israel tries to withdraw and they get attacked! Then palestine elects a terror group. Nice gestures of peace. I can't blame the Israelis for thier gesture back.
And the fact that they have not used thier nukes so far is a testement to thier responsibilty to have them in the first place.

[DJofSD]

You know, I feel so much safer now knowing the recent history of the Eastern Mediterranean. No nukes now. We'll just correct the mistakes of history and everything will be just fine.

As you were. Some of you can reposition your head, you're starting to get a tan.

[Light]

Palestinian culture is sick and twisted... It is a death cult.


Your assesment is no different to Nazi hatred and racism of Jews.Need an oven? You are not qualified to discuss this topic.

[Tom]

And homicide bombers are?

[Lefty]

light, just answer the question: How may homicide bombers on ea side?What's the score?
To point out facts is not hate. To compare everything to the Nazis when you run out of argument just has to be in the lib "playbook."

[lsbets]

Your assesment is no different to Nazi hatred and racism of Jews.Need an oven? You are not qualified to discuss this topic.

Lets see Light - the Palestinians recently celebrated a woman who was proud that several of her children died as suicide bombers. That is sick and twisted. That is what constitutes a death cult.

Hatred and racism? No - that's the reality of Palestinian culture. The celebration of people who murder their children through indocrtination and intentioannly target women and children in their attacks. I refer you to the quote I posted previously - the Palestinian people will not have peace until they learn to love their children more than they hate Israeli children. The culture needs to change if the people are ever going to live in peace. I know the reality of the people you celebrate is painful for you to face, but it is the reality. I would like nothing more than to see the Palestinians have a country of their own, live peacefully both within and outside of their borders, and stop celebrating murder and suicide. But none of that will happen unless the Palestinians bring change upon themselves, and until they do, we need to recognize the truth of that culture.

[chickenhead]

I say they are doing exactly what Americans would do if a greater foreign power occupied us and treated us the way Israel treats Palestinians.

Nope. We would go "Red Dawn" on them ( :eek: ), but I don't think you'd find too many Americans killing women and children at pizzerias. We'd be fighting the soldiers. And I think if the Palestinians had kept the fighting confined to soldiers the conflict would have been over a long time ago.

[highnote]

I refer you to the quote I posted previously - the Palestinian people will not have peace until they learn to love their children more than they hate Israeli children.

Excellent point.

How can you hate so much that you'd rather see your children kill other people than to live in peace?

I believe this is what is called brainwashing.

[lsbets]

Excellent point.

How can you hate so much that you'd rather see your children kill other people than to live in peace?

I believe this is what is called brainwashing.

Careful John, if you agree with me you might be called a Nazi. ;)

[Light]

And when Israelis shoots 10 year olds Palestinians in the head on their way home from school for target practice, or bulldozes grandma's home for laughs,or pistol whips an Palestinian bystander to death for excercise, or deliberatly runs over a peace activists to death with a bulldozer for kicks,these are O.K.? Oh I got plenty more.Enough to make suicide bombers look like child's play.

FYI Palestinians who are resisting Israeli subjugation into a life of dogs,have no army or even uniforms to fight with. Suicide bombings is the poor man's method of fighting a superpower. It is not the method of choice.

[chickenhead]

Suicide bombings is the poor man's method of fighting a superpower. It is not the method of choice.

Ignoring the despicable nature of these acts, they are not effective. They don't work. They turn people against them. They leave them no place at the bargaining table. They give them zero legitimacy. They leave no space for forward movement.

There is not and will not be any sympathy in the hearts of the majority for their cause...strike that....their "presumptive" cause will be totally ignored, so long as these are their methods.

The only thing that amazes me more than the heartlessness of these people is the absolute stupidity and wrongness of their "tactics", assuming what they want is to live decent productive lives in peace.

I do not believe that is what they want, however, as their most vocal supporters will gladly tell you that the aim is to destroy Israel, not to develop a viable Palestinian state. In this light perhaps their tactics make more sense.

[lsbets]

Don't forget what happenned when Barak sat down with Arafat at Camp David. An independent Palestinian State was on the table. Self governance with no Israeli occupation in exchange for security guarantees. Did the deal have everything the Palestinians wanted? No, it didn't. But that was the best deal they had ever been offered, and probably the best that ever will. When faced with a moment of truth, they had a choice to make - peace and a nation, or more war and misery. What was the response and reaction? An unprecedented wave of terror. As chickenhead pointed out - the goal is not to create a Palestinian state, the goal is to destroy Israel to "drive the Jews into the sea." The Palestinians value killing Israelis more than they value building a future.

Would anyone argue that Israel has done no wrong? Of course not, they've done plenty wrong. But the overarching goal of their nation is not to kill Palestinians. The overarching goal of the Palestinians is not to gain nationhood, it is to annihilate Israel.

[highnote]

And when Israelis shoots 10 year olds Palestinians in the head on their way home from school for target practice, or bulldozes grandma's home for laughs,or pistol whips an Palestinian bystander to death for excercise, or deliberatly runs over a peace activists to death with a bulldozer for kicks,these are O.K.? Oh I got plenty more.Enough to make suicide bombers look like child's play.

FYI Palestinians who are resisting Israeli subjugation into a life of dogs,have no army or even uniforms to fight with. Suicide bombings is the poor man's method of fighting a superpower. It is not the method of choice.


I agree with you also Light.

The only person who ever got this right was Jesus. He recommended turning the other cheek.

[Bala]

Swetyejohn wrote: "The only person who ever got this right was Jesus. He recommended turning the other cheek."

____________________________________________

Really?



Is that what Jesus {God in human form} did during Noah’s flood.
When God annihilated most of the human race.

Or, when God ordered the ancient Israelis to kill every Canaanite.


"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" Rom. 1:18

[highnote]

Swetyejohn wrote: "The only person who ever got this right was Jesus. He recommended turning the other cheek."

____________________________________________

Really?



Is that what Jesus {God in human form} did during Noah’s flood.
When God annihilated most of the human race.

Or, when God ordered the ancient Israelis to kill every Canaanite.


"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" Rom. 1:18

I don't know? Was Jesus around during Noah's flood?
Was Jesus around when God ordered the ancient Israelis to kill every Canaanite?

I'm not a biblical scholar. I submit that you know more than I.

Maybe you can confirm whether or not Jesus said turn the other cheek.

[Bala]

Swetyejohn Wrote:"....I don't know? Was Jesus around during Noah's flood?
Was Jesus around when God ordered the ancient Israelis to kill every Canaanite?

I'm not a biblical scholar. I submit that you know more than I.

Maybe you can confirm whether or not Jesus said turn the other cheek."
__________________________________________________ _______________

Jesus is the very creator God. The 2nd person of the holy trinity.
As mentioned in the very first sentence of the holy Torah and Bible.
Jesus {God} cloaked himself with human flesh when he walked
this earth. Jesus was around before the creation of this universe,
let alone Noah’s flood.

“Turn the other cheek” – what are 12 disciples to do against a Roman
Garrison of 80 thousand men. Would you pick up a sword or humble
yourself to the ruling party?

1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
sn God. This frequently used Hebrew name for God (Yahweh]) is a plural
form.


Of course if one is evolutionist nothing really matters because
everything happens by random chance. (including picking winner)



_____________________________
Outsource congress to India.

[highnote]

Of course if one is evolutionist nothing really matters because
everything happens by random chance. (including picking winner)

You don't sound like an evolutionist.

[PaceAdvantage]

FYI Palestinians who are resisting Israeli subjugation into a life of dogs,have no army or even uniforms to fight with. Suicide bombings is the poor man's method of fighting a superpower. It is not the method of choice.

So why don't the wealthy Arab nations in the region provide the Palestinians with an army and a real way to fight their enemy? Could it be that the other Arab nations in the region only use the Palestinian cause when it benefits them but otherwise couldn't care less about their plight?

Isn't it a bit strange that with all that wealth nobody ever took a stand for the poor Palestinian people? Why is that? They are always fighting largely alone....odd.....

[Light]

So why don't the wealthy Arab nations in the region provide the Palestinians with an army and a real way to fight their enemy?


That's a double sided question. First off there are alot people on this board and in this country who consider every Palestinian a terrorist. Therefore every penny donated to Palestinians is automatically support of terrorism and that contributing country should not have nukes and so on and so forth.

Then there are people including the U.S. government who support the Palestinians in humanitarian way. Palestinians are one of the neediest and poorest people on earth. The U.S. generally donates $400 million a year to the Palestinians($3 billion a year to Israel). This money to Palestinians is for humanitarian purposes only. It is not to be used to fight Israel.

Several Arab countries also support Palestinians in a humanitarian way. Saudi Arabia has been the most consistent due to its oil wealth.Countries like Egypt cannot make large cash contributions because of their lack of oil wealth.Other oil states have been deadbeats with unfufilled promises because of political disputes with the Palestinian Party.

Supporting Palestinians in a financial military way is an invition for disaster for any arab country. There are several scenarios that they could encounter including being labeled a terrorists supporter and the repurcussions that would follow. The non oil producing arab countries cannot afford large donantions nor suffer economic setbacks as a result of supporting Palestinians struggle against Israel.

[Lefty]

light, Israel wants peace. If the Palestinians also wanted peace; problem solved. They have never recanted their oath to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Israel has made no such oath against them.