Giacomo returns

[DrugSalvastore]

I'm one of the few knuckleheads who actually still thinks Giacomo is a pretty good horse. It will be interesting to see how he does in the Strub today.

I have a lot of respect for his trainers ability to have a horse ready off of workouts---when this trainer is involved, any horse can fire big for him off of works. However, when the horse in question is coming off of surgery and an 8 month gap in racing--there always has to be a little doubt about how well he'll come back.

I think the Strub is a VERY moderate race--I think Giacomo is the most likely winner of the race--but obviously, he's going to need to be 4/1+ to merit a win bet. If he's in the 5/2-to-7/2 range, I'll play a somewhat smallish exacta putting him on top of four other contenders. Any price lower, and he's very unplayable.

I know the layoff has to keep people away---this is a horse who has gone into multiple races before, with very legit built-in excuses. It would appear he's going into another race with one--but considering who is trainer is, I believe he's as ready to run now as he'll be anytime later on. Questions should get answered about the reigning Ky. Derby winner today--and even on a day loaded with exciting racing across-the-country, and on a day when the top 3yo Turf horse in the land tries dirt, I'm most interested in seeing what happens in the Strub today.

BTW, This rain in FLA sucks.

[BIG RED]

BTW, This rain in FLA sucks.

:lol: :lol: after reading a serious post, I had to laugh when I got to this.

[DrugSalvastore]

:lol: :lol: after reading a serious post, I had to laugh when I got to this.

It does!! I'm nostalgic for a blizzard!! There was like a near flood by my place yesterday.

[DrugSalvastore]

Giacomo didn't embarass himself or anything---but I think he finally proved to me today, that he just isn't the kind of genuinely good horse that I always thought he would prove to be.

Some of the same people who have neglacted to make excuses for this horse in past losses, when excuses were very justified, will give Giacomo an excuse today because of the long layoff and the fact he returned at 9f's in a prep race that didn't mean much for him to win.

Knowing how excellent his trainer is at getting a horse ready off works, he doesn't get that excuse from me. He's okay, but probably not a noteworthy horse, from now on, I think he's real elidigble to run 2nd or 3rd in fast paced Graded Stake races--but not much beyond that.

[stlseeeek]

What i think he did, was make him a great bet against next out!


He had a horrible trip around the turn(wouldn't of caught the winner), and now he becomes the trip horse.

they will say:

1st out
1st out at long distance
was closing, got shut off and had to rerally.


this equals a huge bet against in next race!

[kenwoodallpromos]

I think the Giacomo is Japanese for "sire".LOL.

[JustRalph]

I think the Giacomo is Japanese for "sire".LOL.

como is japanese for sire.............Gia is japanese for "Over-rated"

[cj]

To understand the Derby in the truest sense of the work, look at the Strub yesterday. The horse that finished absolutely last of 20 came back to easily dispatch of the Derby winner. The Derby was a bizarre race with a totally insane pace. If they ran that Derby 100 times, Giacomo would probably win once, maybe twice. The stars were aligned that day for him, can't take away the win.

Anyone for a Funny Cide/Giacomo match race?

[Tom]

His numbers were low compared to others, he was a closer, he was coming off a layoff.....I never cone consiered this guy any kind of a contender for any exotic spot.

I certainly hope his presence helped to bump up the winner's odds a bit, though. ;)

[DrugSalvastore]

The Derby was a bizarre race with a totally insane pace. If they ran that Derby 100 times, Giacomo would probably win once, maybe twice. The stars were aligned that day for him, can't take away the win.

Yea, he's the luckiest Derby winner since War Emblem :)

[DJofSD]

Yea, he's the luckiest Derby winner since War Emblem

I take it you nailed War Emblem also?

[DrugSalvastore]

I take it you nailed War Emblem also?

CJ did....I tossed WE all-together.

I think the way the Derby unfolded the year WE won it was totally nuts.

It didn't take a genius to assume the pace would be insanely fast this year. You always have a field of 16-to-20 horses, who are all stretching out in distance, running in the Derby. Obviously some riders are going to have use horses early on to secure a reasonable tactical position in such a large field. No matter if you have 20 deep closers lined up in the Derby--due to the circumstances of the race, a pace meltdown is always something of a possiblity.

This year, you had a 20 horse field, a rabbit (Spanish Chestnut) who was only entered to raise hell on the front-end. Several other horses including favorite Bellamy Road were total need-the-lead types. Afleet Alex, who has a sprinter/miler pedigree and broke Secretariat's 6 furlong stake record in the Sanford, was certain to make a menacing middle move into the hot pace, which would keep anything up front from getting any kind of mid-race breather. Yes, the pace was insanely fast in the Derby--but it figured to be.

When WE won the Derby---he got his only real pace-pressure from a heavily restrained Perfect Drift!! How nuts was that?? Came Home, who was a Grade 1 winner and undefeated as a sprinter, had totally brilliant speed when he wanted to use it...however, McCarron shockingly refused to use it.

I still have sour grapes about that year's derby! CJ knows I'm messing with him though. Giacomo, as much as I love him, has just never even come close to living up to the exciting promise he subtly hinted at real early on in his career. I got super duper lucky with him.

[DrugSalvastore]

FWIW, I wonder if the connections of Giacomo will consider using a rabbit for him sometime down the line.

It might happen..wouldn't surprise me at least.

Funny enough, his sire Holy Bull had a history with a rabbit. If anyone remembers...a certain individual who trained Tabasco Cat entered Commanche Trial (i think it was him) to burn out the quick footed Holy Bull in the Travers. Holy Bull dueled the rabbit into defeat and bravely gutted out the win over Concern...who obviously got the most benift from the rabbit. Giacomo's style is obviously more similar to Concern's than it is to his sire.

[cj]

Looking through my Champions book, and I still think Holy Bull was the best 3 year old we have seen since the Bid, maybe even better. And certainly none are close since.

[Tom]

[QUOTE=DrugSalvastore]FWIW, I wonder if the connections of Giacomo will consider using a rabbit for him sometime down the line.

It might happen..wouldn't surprise me at least.

QUOTE]

Could be embarrasing if he couldn't catch the rabbit!

[cj]

Maybe they can transfer him to Dutrow, who can in turn convince his main owner to run 6 or 7 rabbits, each ridden by a 10 lb bug boy and responsible for eliminating one other entrant. That should get him in the winner's circle.

[PaceAdvantage]

Looking through my Champions book, and I still think Holy Bull was the best 3 year old we have seen since the Bid, maybe even better. And certainly none are close since.

THANK YOU!

[cj]

One thing I've learned in my days of capping is that great horses are speed horses. They don't have to be blazing on the front end, but they better be close. Great horses in my book win a high percentage of starts at the G1 level. Off the pace runners just don't do this, at least in my lifetime.

[Tom]

Unless his name is FOREGO! ;)

[DrugSalvastore]

Looking through my Champions book, and I still think Holy Bull was the best 3 year old we have seen since the Bid, maybe even better. And certainly none are close since.

Holy Bull was an excellent horse to say the least....

However....,

I hate to break the bad news---but both Sunday Silence and Easy Goer were better 3yo's than Holy Bull. Those two horses came out of by far the largest foal crop ever ('86) and the fact that they had to race against each other is the only thing that kept them from achieving legendary status. If not for SS, at age 3, Easy Goer would have been 11-for-11, with 9 Grade 1 wins, a triple crown sweep, and a 126 Beyer BC Classic win. Sunday Silence was both a great race horse and a great stallion.

Spectacular Bid was 100% invincible when he didn't have to go 1 1/2 miles. I've seen all of Secretariat and Ruffian's races on film, I've seen a lot of Affirmed and Slew, and some of Dr. Fager and Buckpasser--pretty much I've seen film of all the great horses going back to the 60's...Spectacular Bid was just far more impressive to me than any of them. He was 24-for-24 with 14 Grade 1 wins between 7 furlongs-to-1 1/4 miles...set a slew of track records, ran gigantic in all different parts of the country, overcame hilariously bad rides to win top races for fun, routinely humiliated some very serious horses, and also held the fastest Ragozin sheet number for over 20 years.

It's not trendy to say Spectacular Bid was the best horse ever...but in my opinion, he is...and it's really not all that close either.

[cj]

I'm a figure guy. My memory doesn't go back quite so far, but I seriously doubt either of those two threw up the consistently fast numbers that Holy Bull did as a 3yo. This guy was a machine. He destroyed the future BC Sprint winner in the Met Mile, in May of his 3yo season. He beat the future BC Classic winner after having to deal with a rabbit the whole race.

Easy Goer I won't buy at all, he just wasn't as good away from Belmont. A darn good horse, but not quite as good when he went elsewhere. I'll disagree with Sunday Silence, but not the kind of disagreement where I'd start a fight or break out some "your mama" jokes or anything. The case is certainly plausible.

No argument from me on the Bid.

[PaceAdvantage]

You would bring up SS. SS and Holy Bull are my two favorite runners of modern times (modern being post-1986, when I first got the bug).

Still, I'd have to say Holy Bull was the better of the two. He was gutsy as hell, won the Travers facing a rabbit who set some torrid fractions (didn't they go 22 and change and 44 and change in that race?)

Time after time, horses who finished behind Holy Bull went on to win Grade 1 races in their next start or two. It was freaky. He beat older horses like clockwork as early as the Met Mile. He was awesome!

Plus I got a chance to visit him at Jonabell years ago....what a racehorse up close! It was amazing he got hurt the way he did, cause his legs looked sturdy as hell when up close and personal....

Plus, I will never, NEVER forget the kind of roar that went up from the crowd at Belmont Park when Holy Bull won the Woodward. I've never heard such a roar since at Belmont, and I've been to every Belmont Stakes run since Risen Star + Cigar's BC Classic. It still gives me chills to think about that day.....

[delayjf]

routinely humiliated some very serious horses, and also held the fastest Ragozin sheet number for over 20 years.

Who did he beat, as I recall he lost to Affirmed. What was that rag figure that he earned, just curious.

[the little guy]

The half in that Travers was 46 1/5.

CJ's assertion that Easy Goer wasn't the same away from Belmont is silly to say the least. He went 1:32 and a piece, on a super fast track, in winning the Gotham at Aqueduct ( where he also won the Wood ). He won the Whitney and Travers at Saratoga. He lost the Preakness by a literal hair, in Pat Day's poorest ride, and both his losses at Churchill were in the mud. He was hardly embarrassed in the BC Classic at Gulfstream ( where he also won the Swale ). I am not getting into the who was better debate between he and Sunday Silence, as there are legit arguments for both sides, but they were both very fine animals. Better than Holy Bull? I don't know....all three were better than Cigar.

[PaceAdvantage]

Did I say 44 and change...I meant 45....I thought there was some insane fraction in there somewhere....I don't have the PPs in front of me, and it's been a while.

As for your last line (Cigar), I completely agree. It's such a travesty that Holy Bull broke down before he could beat Cigar....



The half in that Travers was 46 1/5.

CJ's assertion that Easy Goer wasn't the same away from Belmont is silly to say the least. He went 1:32 and a piece, on a super fast track, in winning the Gotham at Aqueduct ( where he also won the Wood ). He won the Whitney and Travers at Saratoga. He lost the Preakness by a literal hair, in Pat Day's poorest ride, and both his losses at Churchill were in the mud. He was hardly embarrassed in the BC Classic at Gulfstream ( where he also won the Swale ). I am not getting into the who was better debate between he and Sunday Silence, as there are legit arguments for both sides, but they were both very fine animals. Better than Holy Bull? I don't know....all three were better than Cigar.

[DrugSalvastore]

Who did he beat, as I recall he lost to Affirmed. What was that rag figure that he earned, just curious.

His top Ragozin sheet figure was a negative 3 as I recall. It lasted over 20 years until Congaree broke it in the first of his two NYRA Mile wins. From what I understand, the Ragozin figures go back to the days of the great Native Dancer.

I was referring to two horses in perticular, who I think were both outstanding horses, who Spectacular Bid routinely humiliated. Flying Paster was a 12 time stakes winner, 3-time Grade 1 winner and simply a great California horse. He was a total top class horse who got repeatedly trashed by the Bid on both coasts. General Assembly was a Grade 1 winner at 2 and 3. He was a really solid horse who got repeatedly abused by Spectacular Bid.

There is a very long list of high quality horses Bid beat. In his walkover in the Woodward---two other horses were entered to face him. Dr. Patches (who once upset Seattle Slew) and Champion Temperence Hill (who won six stakes that year including the Belmont, Travers, Jockey Club Gold Cup, Super Derby, and Arkansas Derby) both horses decided to scratch---and Spectacular Bid got to win in a walkover.

[DrugSalvastore]

I'm one of few people who think Skip Away was a better horse than Cigar.

Cigar was very consistent and very impressive--but he was also lucky to take advantage of some pretty moderate opposition...and he never really ran the kind of fast figures you expect to see from a real great horse.

Skip Away won the only head-to-head match between the two...it was at 1 1/4 miles and he did it as a 3yo. He also was a little faster horse from a figure standpoint, and unarguably had to deal with much tougher opposition than Cigar did during his long winning streak.

[Valuist]

Cigar beat all comers until he got cooked by a 1:09 pace at Del Mar (in a 10 furlong race) and I think he still ran second. That might've been the best perfomance in defeat since Seattle Slew got narrowly beat after dueling thru insane fractions. When you watched Cigar, you knew you were watching a great horse. Skip Away was very good but I never got that same feeling. Maybe it was because of all the monster numbers run back in 1997 by him, Formal Gold and a few others.

BTW, does anybody in the world other than Jerry Brown consider Mineshaft one of the all-time greats? What would he run against, 4 horse fields. Even the non-winning Perfect Drift beat him.

[the little guy]

Skip Away? one of MANY better than Cigar.

To be fair, however, I think Cigar showed unequivocally that he was better than L'Carriere.

[DrugSalvastore]

Skip Away? one of MANY better than Cigar.

To be fair, however, I think Cigar showed unequivocally that he was better than L'Carriere.

I take it you weren't impressed with his epic clash in Dubai against that real nice West Virginia Bred Soul of the Matter?

On a board, I once said that I thought Inside Information would have beaten Cigar in that Breeders Cup Classic race....the pretty horsey types all ganged up on me and wanted me crucified for saying it.

Cigar deserves a ton of credit for consistently winning though...he was a very tactically gifted horse...and that quailty doesn't always show up in the speed figures. I think it was the same kind of quailty that enabled Sunday Silence to beat Easy Goer.

I'm a little surprised that CJ isn't all that fond of EG. I have all his and SS lifetime Beyer Figures and sheet figures back in PA. I obviously don't bring that stuff with me when I travel. EG was a great figure horse. I'm almost certain he ran a 115 or a 116 as a 2yo. He broke the 120's several times at age three as I recall. I can be wrong, but I think only Grand Canyon ran a faster Beyer than he did at age two...since they started publishing them in the 80's.

[the little guy]

You and I are on the same page with Cigar, as he was undoubtably a very nice horse, but his only stab at greatness was his exceptional ability to perform at a very high level for a long period of time. We understand it isn't a horse's fault who it faces, but he ran in a very convenient vacuum, and had he faced the likes of Skip Away, Formal Gold and even Will's Way on a consistent basis he would hardly have had a long winning streak. I'm sure he would have made his presense felt, and even won his share, but he would NOT have dominated.

[DrugSalvastore]

When Gentlemen was right, he was pretty awesome as well.

[the little guy]

I was going to go back and put Gentleman in there as well. His Pimlico Special was awesome ( I think it got a 124 Beyer or maybe as high as 126 ).

The biggest win bet I ever made was on Skip Away when Rick Wilson, who I will be kind about due to his misfortune, butchered him in the Cowdin at 5.30-1 the day after the 1995 BC. He lost by a nose. By the time the horse who beat him won another race Skip Away was well on his way to his first HOY title.

[DrugSalvastore]

Some of the races Gentlemen ran in Cal were very impressive as well. Cigar would have been in deep shipping across country to face him.

Louis Quatorze was real tough when he was on his game as well. I know he came back strong at four--but I think they only got two or three races out of him. He split two head-to-head meetings with Cigar as a 3yo.

Huge difference between those horses and the ones Cigar had his way with in '95 and the first part of '96

[cj]

To be fair, I wasn't so into racing for that spell when Easy Goer was running. I was 21 or 22, single, and had other priorities, like fillies. I still bet and followed the sport, but nothing like on the scale I had done before or after that time.

[cj]

I definitely wasn't a huge Cigar fan either. I did love the whole Skip Away, Gentleman, Will's Way, and Formal Gold year. Those guys could bring it.

[DrugSalvastore]

To be fair, I wasn't so into racing for that spell when Easy Goer was running. I was 21 or 22, single, and had other priorities, like fillies.

Yea, I'm living proof how a dudes popularity with the ladies can go to hell if one spends massive chunks of time every day focusing on betting, and much much more time consuming, is actually mining for all the good information I can, so I actually can, for now, afford to eat, live, and still have enough money left over to gamble with.

I'm way too pretty to get the lack of loving I've been getting lately. If hot chicks don't start flocking to me very soon---I think I'm going to quit working out and eat nothing but cheese-burgers and Pizza.

[Tom]

I think one of the best years for racing was when they conducted the traveling "GrandCircuit" type stakes scedule - a different track each time, a full series, with points for performance in each of the 10 or so legs. Many horses competed in them all and enough new ones each one that the pace scenarios were really different race to race. Can't remember what the dang this was called, but the Pimlico Special was a leg one year. NBC covered it?

Might have been 1991 - I thinkg Black Tie Affair ran in one or two of them.

[GaryG]

I think one of the best years for racing was when they conducted the traveling "GrandCircuit" type stakes scedule - a different track each time, a full series, with points for performance in each of the 10 or so legs. Many horses competed in them all and enough new ones each one that the pace scenarios were really different race to race. Can't remember what the dang this was called, but the Pimlico Special was a leg one year. NBC covered it?

Might have been 1991 - I thinkg Black Tie Affair ran in one or two of them.Yes 1991...The Inaugural Pacific Classic was one of them...I think that was the year Best Pal beat Twilight Agenda, Farma Way and Unbridled.

[the little guy]

The American Racing Championship Series ( ARCS ), the brainchild of Barry Weisborg, that racetracks brilliantly discarded after a couple of years. Wouldn't want to create fan interest.

[GMB@BP]

I'm one of few people who think Skip Away was a better horse than Cigar.

Cigar was very consistent and very impressive--but he was also lucky to take advantage of some pretty moderate opposition...and he never really ran the kind of fast figures you expect to see from a real great horse.

Skip Away won the only head-to-head match between the two...it was at 1 1/4 miles and he did it as a 3yo. He also was a little faster horse from a figure standpoint, and unarguably had to deal with much tougher opposition than Cigar did during his long winning streak.

your not the only one

[GMB@BP]

I have to jump in on this sunday silence, easy goer, holy bull.

its very plausible that easy goer was the best horse in terms of sheer ability, unfortunately his running style did not match up with a dominant horse who could run close or on the lead, and if he had trouble beating sunday silence I would have trouble thinking he would catch holy bull on the front end, and we can even have the race at Belmont :)

[KirisClown]

Looking through my Champions book, and I still think Holy Bull was the best 3 year old we have seen since the Bid, maybe even better. And certainly none are close since.


Well Said!

Sadly, A LOT of people, especially on internet message boards... forget just how good HB was...

[KirisClown]

I would have trouble thinking he would catch holy bull on the front end, and we can even have the race at Belmont :)

For 7-9F Id take Holy Bull over just about anyone... especially at Belmont...

http://www.darley.co.uk/nominees/winnersvids/stallions/HOL_Woodward.asx

[Tom]

The American Racing Championship Series ( ARCS ), the brainchild of Barry Weisborg, that racetracks brilliantly discarded after a couple of years. Wouldn't want to create fan interest.

I thought it was a great idea....really had me following more racing. Really had som epace lesson in those races, too.

[PaceAdvantage]

KirisClown, you just made my MONTH with that link!

How solid was that field in the Woodward that HB destroyed? Every horse in that race was a "name" horse more or less.

I could watch that race all night long....thanks again!

[KirisClown]

KirisClown, you just made my MONTH with that link!

How solid was that field in the Woodward that HB destroyed? Every horse in that race was a "name" horse more or less.

I could watch that race all night long....thanks again!


Im pretty sure every horse in that race was a grade one winning millionaire.... I was at Belmont that day, the whole card really had a magical feeling to it. The ovation Holy Bull got after the Woodward was amazing, I was right on the winners circle rail applauding...

Some of HB's other races...

Met Mile: http://www.darley.co.uk/nominees/winnersvids/stallions/HOL_MetHandicap.asx

Fl Derby: http://www.darley.co.uk/nominees/winnersvids/stallions/HOL_FloridaDerby.asx

Travers: http://www.darley.co.uk/nominees/winnersvids/stallions/HOL_TraversStakes.asx

Haskell: http://www.darley.co.uk/nominees/winnersvids/stallions/HOL_Haskell.asx

Futurity: http://www.darley.co.uk/nominees/winnersvids/stallions/HOL_Futurity.asx

[PaceAdvantage]

A number of years back, I was fortunate enough to obtain a Holy Bull promotional video from Jonabell / Darley. It's awesome. Recently, I was able to get the DVD version of this as well....it contains all the races you are linking to on the Darley site...

[the little guy]

It was a terrific idea and series. There are a number of theories as to why it was discontinued and few of them reflect well on the racing powers that be.

[KirisClown]

A number of years back, I was fortunate enough to obtain a Holy Bull promotional video from Jonabell / Darley. It's awesome. Recently, I was able to get the DVD version of this as well....it contains all the races you are linking to on the Darley site...

You're lucky... Ive tried VERY hard to get that DVD, but I always come up short...

Id love to see his Hutchinson win again, and the Dwyer....

[the little guy]

You didn't try THAT hard. I'm sure I can get it for you.

[The Hawk]

I don't go back that far, but, under the circumstances, Holy Bull's effort in the Travers remains the single greatest effort I've seen from a horse.

[KirisClown]

You didn't try THAT hard. I'm sure I can get it for you.


Ive contacted Jonabell numerous times about it, they always say its out of stock or its no longer being made. I stopped trying a couple months ago.

I thought about going the route of actually buying the races on tape from the tracks themselves, but that can get pricey...

[the little guy]

I imagine I can get you a copy.

They love me at Darley, don't ya know!

[KirisClown]

I imagine I can get you a copy.

They love me at Darley, don't ya know!

Id be in debt to you forever....

[DrugSalvastore]

I don't go back that far, but, under the circumstances, Holy Bull's effort in the Travers remains the single greatest effort I've seen from a horse.

Take nothing away at all from HB and his Travers win. He's an awesome horse and it was a very excellent race to say the least.

However, Concern really didn't show much of a killer instinct down the lane in that race. Concern did win the Breeders Cup Classic, in another super-fast paced race that year---but prior to that effort---he was a horse with a pretty good hanging problem. His only other Stakes win that year was in the Ark Derby. He finished 2nd in 4 stakes that year, and 3rd in 6 other stakes. That's a total of 10 stakes placings in defeat...in just that one year.

I still remember Holy Bull's win as a 2yo over the mega hyped Dehere. I rememeber all kinds of excuses being made for Dehere--from the sloppy track (which he was bred to love) to saying he lost his shoes during the race, and others questioning the ride he got.

It's very untrendy to say this---but some of the best efforts I've seen recently have come from horses who've accomplished a lot less than Holy Bull. Mazel Trick's two races in '00 quickly come to mind--Ghostzapper, Dubai Millenium's foreign races, even a lesser horse like Left Bank ran giant races the two times before he ate from Pletcher's bad patch of grass.

[delayjf]

His top Ragozin sheet figure was a negative 3 as I recall.

Can you tell me what some of the other Champions rag figures were, How did the Bid compare to "Big Red".

How do you explain his lost to Affirmed?

I'm dubvious as to how good Flying Paster and General Assembly really were. True, Flying Paster was tough in California, But how good was he outside of California. Dr Patches was a sprinter, and while I'm not sure, did the Bid ever defeat Temperance Hill in a race.

It's not that I think SB doesn't belong in the elite class of thoroughbreds, I'm just not convinced he was the best ever.

One horse that I think belongs in this group as well is Alysheba. Almost won the triple crown, lost a BC Classic by a nose as a three year old, then won the crown as 4 yr old against a very tough bunch of horses.

[the little guy]

Dr. Patches was primarily a sprinter but he did defeat Seattle Slew going a route at the Meadowlands before Slew won the Marlboro.

Temperance Hill was a horse that got rain for just about every big race he won.

[DrugSalvastore]

By the way guys, in case anyone missed it...Giacomo got a 101 Beyer. A new lifetime top for him...while getting drubbed in that "Grade 2" Stake over the weekend.

I'm not big on questioning people of authority, but I guess it's possibly a questionable fig, but it sure makes me feel a lot better to know that I had the right idea betting him. Gee whiz, if the top two finisher didn't explode to new lifetime top figures, I'd have won. Darn, darn, darn!

I'm really glad I saw that fig...it made me feel a little less stupid for betting on Giacomo in that spot. Two horses just had to explode to beat me, oh well.

[DrugSalvastore]

Can you tell me what some of the other Champions rag figures were, How did the Bid compare to "Big Red".

How do you explain his lost to Affirmed?

Affirmed was a razor sharp older horse taking on Spectacular Bid at a distance that was way beyond his scope from a pedigree standpoint. Affirmed also had the favorable trip and pace scenerio---Bid was game, and fired, but was about a length short in the end.

I don't have all the rag numbers available for the past great horses. Big Red got a zero for Belmont victory though. Bid's record number came at age four.

It would have been interesting to see how Bid would have done against General Assembly in the Travers. GA won the Travers by 15 lengths, in a track record time that still stands today, over a very tough horse named Smarten. Private Accout (a multiple Grade 1 winner, and the sire of Personal Ensign and Inside Information) was 3rd beaten 26 lengths to GA in that Travers. GA's win was obviously very circumstancial though---he got isolated on the lead, over a sloppy track, that was said to be very speed favoring.

That would have been the day---that the invinciblity of Spectacular Bid between the distances of 7 furlong to 1 1/4 miles would have really been put to the test.

Flying Paster is one of the all-time most popular horses in Cal history. He was legit.

[the little guy]

Bid wouldn't have beaten General Assembly that day. He was lone speed and long gone.

Who was the favorite in that Travers?

[DrugSalvastore]

Davona Dale--who was the dam of La Voyager. Who ran 3rd to EG and SS in the Belmont

[the little guy]

Remembering Davona Dale, who was a fine animal, as the dam of La Voyageur is like remembering Secretariat as the sire of Tom Swift.

And....did you honestly think I didn't remember he was third in that Belmont.

What was Davona Dale's prior start and how did she do?

[DrugSalvastore]

Remembering Davona Dale, who was a fine animal, as the dam of La Voyageur is like remembering Secretariat as the sire of Tom Swift.

And....did you honestly think I didn't remember he was third in that Belmont.

What was Davona Dale's prior start and how did she do?

LOL Chill killer. I was just trying to piece things together with the Le Voyager reference.

I know she won a slew of Grade 1's including the Ky Oaks that year. I think she lost the Alabama before the Travers. Her loss was to the bicoastal filly It's In the Air, who won a slew of Grade 1's that year as well--and was a daughter of MR. P.

[the little guy]

What you couldn't google that she won the TC for Fillies ( I'm a little sensitive after CJ's lame google earlier today )?

Google this one my friend....Tom Swift was a son of Secretariat and Shuvee that was sold at the Saratoga Horse Sales for $350K. What event in American history took place that evening that caused a slight disruption in the horse sales?

[DrugSalvastore]

It was in Steve Crist's book....the last question.

Is the answer to this one also in there?

[the little guy]

Crist wouldn't know this one.

That Alabama may have been the first race Steve covered for the Times.

Ya know....I'm in that book. I'm referred to as " an obssessive horseplayer ".

Jealous?

[DrugSalvastore]

[QUOTE=the little guy]Tom Swift was a son of Secretariat and Shuvee that was sold at the Saratoga Horse Sales for $350K.QUOTE]

Tom Swift was not of a son of Secretariat by the way, he was by Tom Rolfe.

I have no idea though---please do tell me.

[the little guy]

Yer right. I'm so ashamed.

It was the night of Nixon's resignation and they stopped the sales to play his resignation speech. People were actually crying.

I was NOT one of them.

[DrugSalvastore]

Crist wouldn't know this one.

That Alabama may have been the first race Steve covered for the Times.

Ya know....I'm in that book. I'm referred to as " an obssessive horseplayer ".

Jealous?

Of course I'm jealous---I'm way f'ing more obsesessive than you....I really need to get a life. Can you help me?

[the little guy]

Perhaps now you could be considered more obsessive, perhaps, but you should have known me when I was playing full-time.

[DrugSalvastore]

Perhaps now you could be considered more obsessive, perhaps, but you should have known me when I was playing full-time.

Only a lunatic would argue something like this...which is why I will.

Even in your absolute obsessive prime---I'm still more obsessive than you!

Seriously---I'm beyond hope.

[the little guy]

Well, perhaps a woman could help.

Or more drugs.

[JustRalph]

Well, perhaps a woman could help.

Or more drugs.

I suggest the latter..............if you are going to make a choice.........:D

[toetoe]

I was going to guess The Boston Tea Party. See, it would imply that you guys are old, and that I'm not, the preponderance of evidence notwithstanding.

True or false:
DD and Alydar were trained by the same man.
Gold Seal and Soviet Problem ... same trainer.
Hail Hilarious and War Chant.
Favorite Trick and Richter Scale.

[SmartyParty]

Plus I got a chance to visit him at Jonabell years ago....what a racehorse up close! It was amazing he got hurt the way he did, cause his legs looked sturdy as hell when up close and personal....

PaceAdvantage, I was lucky to see Holy Bull at Jonabell just two years ago and he still looks great!

[DJofSD]

cause his legs looked sturdy as hell when up close and personal....

Looks don't tell the entire story. Running your hand and fingers over the right spot would have told a different story.

To me when I hear the expression 'he's a hands on trainer' it means more than just knowing how to put a halter on a horse. It means literally running your hands over the horse, all over, not just the legs, to know how the horse is doing.

Some are trainers others are horsemen.

[falconridge]

I was going to guess The Boston Tea Party. See, it would imply that you guys are old, and that I'm not, the preponderance of evidence notwithstanding.

True or false:
DD and Alydar were trained by the same man.
Gold Seal and Soviet Problem ... same trainer.
Hail Hilarious and War Chant.
Favorite Trick and Richter Scale.Nobody bit at this one? Without need of Google:

Davona Dale and Alydar: John "Rhymes with 'Peach'" Veitch

Gold Seal and Soviet Problem: Cowboy Greg Gilchrist, of the ten-gallon potato chip haberdashery. A little gloss on Gold Seal: minor stakes winner in his youth, gritty, honest-as-Diogenes gelding raced 'til deep into the fall Bay Meadows meet of his 11-year-old season. Had him in his last win; payed an 11.80 mutuel for besting low-level starter-allowance types.

Hail Hilarious and War Chant: Neil "Scratch 'Em" Drysdale. Hail Hilarious, up the track in her debut, payed a boxcar (ca. 65-1, if memory serves) second time out. Honest, versatile Fast Hilarious filly early in mealy-mouthed Neil's career.

Favorite Trick and Richter Scale: Paddy Byrne, I presume?

Besides, all toetoe's T/F posers are TRUE.

[toetoe]

T/F: All my T/F's are true. :cool:

T/F: I'm a liar. :liar:

T/F: Richter Scale was bred in California. ;)

[GaryG]

T/F: All my T/F's are true. :cool:

T/F: I'm a liar. :liar:

T/F: Richter Scale was bred in California. ;)T T T