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Tom
02-02-2006, 06:37 PM
....dumb or Dumber?

Bush today called for Congress to allow MORE foreigners into the country to take high paying tech jobs, which he CLAIMS are not being filled by Americans because we don't have people smart enough to take them.

Then, Congress is cutting back funding for college tutition aid!

Remember, this is a big, happy REPUBLICAN family running things - no one can blame this stupidity and lunacy ont he libs - it is a team effort by the Party of Power.

Secretariat
02-02-2006, 06:59 PM
Tom, the world is going crazy it seems.

Now I'm posting a Pat Buchanan Worldnet article:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48605

"Ever since President Bush, sometime after 9-11, converted to neoconservatism, his Middle East policy has suffered from the triple defects of that subspecies of the Right: hubris, ideology and immaturity.

Neoconservatives see the world as they wish it to be, not as it is. Like teenagers, they act on impulse and rail against the counsel of experience. "Often clever, never wise," Russell Kirk said of the breed. "

I respect conservatives though disagree at times, I fear for our country's future with neocons in charge.

so.cal.fan
02-02-2006, 07:03 PM
His comments at the end of his show?
He said that President Bush should have made a 7 word, one sentence SOTU address to Congress.

"Get off your asses and DO SOMETHING"

I like Neil. :)

highnote
02-02-2006, 07:14 PM
"Get off your asses and DO SOMETHING"

I thought that's why we elected politicians. :D

xtb
02-02-2006, 07:22 PM
....dumb or Dumber?

Bush today called for Congress to allow MORE foreigners into the country to take high paying tech jobs, which he CLAIMS are not being filled by Americans because we don't have people smart enough to take them.

Then, Congress is cutting back funding for college tutition aid!



Holy crap, it only gets worse.

ljb
02-02-2006, 08:30 PM
After the last election I said I was leaving the board. One member said "but you won't get to do all the I told you so's" Here is another one. :lol:

kenwoodallpromos
02-02-2006, 09:11 PM
A Repulsivcan trying to cut the cost of labor! Who'd have guessed!LOL!! :eek:

rastajenk
02-03-2006, 08:56 AM
One of the biggest unpublicized scams out there is the rapid rise in college tuitions, so much greater than inflation rates or any other measure of relative worth. Where does it all go?

Every time federally-funded financial aid is increased, tuitions across the country go up. It's possible that a freeze on aid could slow down the obscene increases, making it more affordable for more people in the long run.

Academia is the province of unrepentant liberalism. You know, the ones who pat themselves on the back for being smarter than the average schmucks. Surely they can find other ways to make education better and more available, without insisting on more money, faster please. There's a topic I'd like to see Michael Moore take on.

ljb
02-03-2006, 09:14 AM
One of the biggest unpublicized scams out there is the rapid rise in college tuitions, so much greater than inflation rates or any other measure of relative worth. Where does it all go?

Every time federally-funded financial aid is increased, tuitions across the country go up. It's possible that a freeze on aid could slow down the obscene increases, making it more affordable for more people in the long run.

Academia is the province of unrepentant liberalism. You know, the ones who pat themselves on the back for being smarter than the average schmucks. Surely they can find other ways to make education better and more available, without insisting on more money, faster please. There's a topic I'd like to see Michael Moore take on.
Well you should be happy now. The repubs cut tuition aid along with taxes for the rich and famous.
This should mean decreased tuition, based on your logic, and more money for the rich and famous to send their children to college.

rastajenk
02-03-2006, 09:29 AM
Exactly. Freeing up fed funds for those that need it most.

highnote
02-03-2006, 09:34 AM
Academia is the province of unrepentant liberalism. You know, the ones who pat themselves on the back for being smarter than the average schmucks. Surely they can find other ways to make education better and more available, without insisting on more money, faster please. There's a topic I'd like to see Michael Moore take on.

Given that all our manufacturing jobs are going abroad I think it is a very good investment to pay for education. If the citizens of this country are uneducated and without jobs what kind of future is there.

Consider how much taxeable income is generated by college graduates and you will find that the taxes collected far exceeds the amount paid for education.

The U.S. gov't had made many times over the grants and low interest student loans I was given. The money I borrowed to pay for my education was the best investment I ever made.

When my father returned from WWII he was able to paint houses for $1 per hour for a 40 hour week and pay his entire semester tuition At Ohio University in Anthens, Ohio.

Today, what 22 year old person can work 40 hours labor and pay their entire semester's tuition?

About the only person I can think of is a drug dealer. I'd wager that not many drug dealers are spending their money on college tuition.

I'm perfectly happy knowing that my tax dollars help provide financial aid for students in need.

Tom
02-03-2006, 09:43 AM
Which is the hallmark of a great nation:

Everyone who wants a college education is entitled to one, as long as they prove they are deserving of it (by passing)

or-

Only those who have the economic means get to go to college?

How many degrees could we have paid for with the 6 billion we give Africa for AIDS?

twindouble
02-03-2006, 10:03 AM
I respect conservatives though disagree at times, I fear for our country's future with neocons in charge.[/QUOTE]

It never fails to amaze me how narrow minded people latch on to words like neocons that lumps people together in a negitive way. Reminds me of all the other ethnic put downs. Like using those words is suposed to mean they have a clear understanding who their talking about and they can cast the hate net over anyone who doesn't measure up to their ignorance.

T.D.

highnote
02-03-2006, 10:14 AM
How many degrees could we have paid for with the 6 billion we give Africa for AIDS?

Or how many could we pay for if we just shaved 1% of the $400 billion defense budget and gave it for education? Or if the gov't accounting office kept better records -- the 2 billion unaccounted for could go to education.

chickenhead
02-03-2006, 12:05 PM
Bush today called for Congress to allow MORE foreigners into the country to take high paying tech jobs, which he CLAIMS are not being filled by Americans because we don't have people smart enough to take them.


True story, I know a little vietnamese guy, worked at HP/Agilent for 20 years in their advanced microwave division (radio amplifiers and such, not the consumer appliance)....anyway, a very highly skilled scientific discipline.

HP moved all that overseas, cut a few thou jobs here locally...he went on unemployment, they (EDD) offer training/retraining of course...they told him "you'll never get another job in electronics, that is dead here", and offered him retraining -- to be a hairstylist!

Anyway, long story short, I hired him a few months later, working on *gasp* advanced microwave products. The gubment is clueless from top to bottom.

I also find it interesting, they do offer training benefits for technology "certificates", base vocational type stuff that WILL NOT land you a job anywhere unless the job market is overwhelmingly in your favor, but takes two years to get and they'll pay you living wages and tuition for it.

They on the other hand will not offer training benefits to get an AS degree, something that also takes two years, something that is stand alond useful and a stepping stone towards getting a BS degree, something extremely useful.

I'm all for training the workforce and helping things along, but when t comes to tech they are throwing our money down the toilet, while cutting our legs out at the same time.

46zilzal
02-03-2006, 12:27 PM
I respect conservatives though disagree at times, I fear for our country's future with neocons in charge.

It never fails to amaze me how narrow minded people latch on to words like neocons that lumps people together in a negitive way. Reminds me of all the other ethnic put downs. Like using those words is suposed to mean they have a clear understanding who their talking about and they can cast the hate net over anyone who doesn't measure up to their ignorance.

T.D.[/QUOTE]

agree people do the SAME thing all the time here labelling everything they disagree with as LIBERAL when those opinions are just as diverse as the ones you speak of

toetoe
02-03-2006, 12:35 PM
TeeDee,

It's the oldest trick in the book. You name it, you can own it, sort of. :)

twindouble
02-03-2006, 12:41 PM
It never fails to amaze me how narrow minded people latch on to words like neocons that lumps people together in a negitive way. Reminds me of all the other ethnic put downs. Like using those words is suposed to mean they have a clear understanding who their talking about and they can cast the hate net over anyone who doesn't measure up to their ignorance.

T.D.

agree people do the SAME thing all the time here labelling everything they disagree with as LIBERAL when those opinions are just as diverse as the ones you speak of[/QUOTE]

I think there is a place for liberalism in our society but not to the extent of the 60's that brought on the welfare system that was very destructive in many ways.

T.D.

Secretariat
02-03-2006, 05:35 PM
I respect conservatives though disagree at times, I fear for our country's future with neocons in charge.

It never fails to amaze me how narrow minded people latch on to words like neocons that lumps people together in a negitive way. Reminds me of all the other ethnic put downs. Like using those words is suposed to mean they have a clear understanding who their talking about and they can cast the hate net over anyone who doesn't measure up to their ignorance.

T.D.[/QUOTE]

While I agree Republican Patrick Buchanan is narrow minded, I must disagree with you that using the term neocon or liberal is narrow minded in the least.

Heres' what the encyclopedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_(United_States)

I am not using the term neocon to impugn someone's race as you use in your examples as a parallelr above, but to their political agenda, in the same way that people put down a liberal agenda (which is part of free speech and open debate in a free society). Calling someone a liberal is not narrow minded, and I certainly defend the rights of Conservative Patrick Bucahanan to use the term neocon or liberal if he wants freely. Your analogy is way way off base.

xtb
02-03-2006, 05:51 PM
Given that all our manufacturing jobs are going abroad I think it is a very good investment to pay for education. If the citizens of this country are uneducated and without jobs what kind of future is there.

Consider how much taxeable income is generated by college graduates and you will find that the taxes collected far exceeds the amount paid for education.





Not to mention the tens of thousands of programming/IT/call center jobs being outsourced to India and Asia. W pats himself on the back about our relatively low unemployment but no mention of the serious underemployment we're facing and shrinking tax base. It’s like one big interrelated downward spiral. less expendable income -> more (slave labor) cheap products from China -> higher trade deficit -> fewer manufacturing jobs here -> lower tax base -> spending cuts -> less money for education -> fewer high tech jobs -> more underemployment -> less expendable income -> -> ->

I go out of my way to buy made in USA or at least Not made in China, sometimes it’s impossible. My power supply went on my PC recently and I had to replace it asap. I spent an afternoon looking for a p.s. but every one of the dozen or so I looked at were made in China. It really bothered me but I was forced to buy a made in China power supply. I don’t know what the average person can do to fight it.

twindouble
02-03-2006, 06:33 PM
It never fails to amaze me how narrow minded people latch on to words like neocons that lumps people together in a negitive way. Reminds me of all the other ethnic put downs. Like using those words is suposed to mean they have a clear understanding who their talking about and they can cast the hate net over anyone who doesn't measure up to their ignorance.

T.D.

While I agree Republican Patrick Buchanan is narrow minded, I must disagree with you that using the term neocon or liberal is narrow minded in the least.

Heres' what the encyclopedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_(United_States)

I am not using the term neocon to impugn someone's race as you use in your examples as a parallelr above, but to their political agenda, in the same way that people put down a liberal agenda (which is part of free speech and open debate in a free society). Calling someone a liberal is not narrow minded, and I certainly defend the rights of Conservative Patrick Bucahanan to use the term neocon or liberal if he wants freely. Your analogy is way way off base.[/QUOTE]

I'll except your diffinition as long as no one here uses the words neocon or liberal in a negitive way. They are just political points of view, that's what we should be exploring. Correct?

T.D.

ljb
02-03-2006, 07:20 PM
I am a liberal and use the word neocon all the time. I use the definition of being one of the new conservatives.

twindouble
02-03-2006, 08:34 PM
I am a liberal and use the word neocon all the time. I use the definition of being one of the new conservatives.

I many cases where the word neocon or liberal is used, you can't deny they are wrapped around derogatory statements, infering they are sworn enemy's not political opponents. Like I said, liberalism and conservatism can function very well together.

T.D.

rastajenk
02-04-2006, 02:40 AM
How can you tell a new conservative from an old one? Most people who hold so-called conservative beliefs are not neocons, but the term has been used perjoratively for all conservatives since about, oh, Sept 12, 2001.

ljb
02-04-2006, 08:34 AM
How can you tell a new conservative from an old one? Most people who hold so-called conservative beliefs are not neocons, but the term has been used perjoratively for all conservatives since about, oh, Sept 12, 2001.
And old conservative believed in not spending more then you have, witness the current deficit. And old conservative believed in states rights, witness Bush's midnight flight to sign the Schaivo law and the attempt at changing the constitution to make gay marriage illegal . This is just a couple of examples, with time I could come up with more.
Prior to the last Republican convention I urged all Republicans to speak up and regain control of their party from the neocons but my words fell on deaf ears.

Tom
02-04-2006, 11:17 AM
How about we call ourselves what we all really area - VICTIMS.

I will do this from now on, but everytime you are tempted to jump to the defense of some government bozo being attacked by someone elses. ask yourself, "What has this low life done for ME lately? Why can' tI have the same health care coverage I PAY FOR HIM TO HAVE!)
I will not be defending many of these scum ball in the future.

I think it absolutely DISGUSTING that people who are out of work because our King, er, President thinks free trade with $.19 an hour slaves will somehow be good for America have to pay for HIS health care out what little unemployement they get. Absolutle disgusting.

twindouble
02-04-2006, 11:33 AM
How about we call ourselves what we all really area - VICTIMS.

I will do this from now on, but everytime you are tempted to jump to the defense of some government bozo being attacked by someone elses. ask yourself, "What has this low life done for ME lately? Why can' tI have the same health care coverage I PAY FOR HIM TO HAVE!)
I will not be defending many of these scum ball in the future.

I think it absolutely DISGUSTING that people who are out of work because our King, er, President thinks free trade with $.19 an hour slaves will somehow be good for America have to pay for HIS health care out what little unemployement they get. Absolutle disgusting.

Your right, Congress is just one massive Corporate board that steals the tax payers money creating those golden parachutes for themselves while we suck wind. When they are able to divide and weaken the masses to the point we are now, it's their opportunity to do what they please while we are at each others throats. Within this mass confusion the real problems continue to get worst.

T.D.

ljb
02-04-2006, 12:33 PM
Sounds like the murmurnings of anarchy are rearing their ugly head on this board. Who woulda thunk ? ;)

twindouble
02-04-2006, 12:42 PM
Sounds like the murmurnings of anarchy are rearing their ugly head on this board. Who woulda thunk ? ;)


The truth is the truth, what ever it takes to get it right.


T.D.

Tom
02-04-2006, 12:49 PM
Equal opportunity disgust here, ljb - like I said, there is basically no difference between dems and repubs. Both suck, both are liars, both are thieves, niether represent us.
Time for another Boston Tea Party - only I'm thinking something to do with oil.

All this party loyalty stuff is like pro-wreslting - an act.

Q What do Ted Kennedy and George Bush have in common?
A OUR money!

46zilzal
02-04-2006, 12:49 PM
there seems to be catch-all words for people who are lazy enough to LUMP anyone they disagree with into them. In the 50's if you were different (IN ANY WAY) you were a beatnick, in the 60's a hippie....same thing today but the catch phrase is liberal.

Secretariat
02-04-2006, 06:15 PM
How can you tell a new conservative from an old one? Most people who hold so-called conservative beliefs are not neocons, but the term has been used perjoratively for all conservatives since about, oh, Sept 12, 2001.

The idea that you cannot tell a new conservative from an old one is simply incorrect.

Old Conservatism was founded on states rights, a smaller leaner federal govt., fiscal responsiblity, and balanced budgets, and even at some times protectionist measures in terms of trade (Made In America). Some of the current Liberatarians are more like old Conservatives although old conservatism is still alive. Here's a few Consevative Republicans who voted against the War and why.

Repub. John Hostettler:

"I must conclude that Iraq indeed poses a threat, but it does not pose an imminent threat that justifies a pre-emptive military strike at this time.

or Repub. Constance Morella:

"As the world's last superpower, I believe that we must have a better plan for our Nation and for the world for a post-war Iraq. We must reassure those neighbors in the Middle East that we are committed first to peace and stability and second to regime change. And we must not give our friends and foes in the region more reason to distrust our sincerity and desire for peace by ignoring the world community's role in addressing this problem.”

or Repub. Amo Houghton:

"In 1944 I enlisted in the Marine Corps. I voted for Desert Storm. I have always felt that the first dollar of federal money should go into defense, to be able to protect our country. But I am prepared to vote against this resolution. This is a sad day for me, because I want to support my president.

Iraq is now one of the only secular countries in that region. And the Sunnis and the Shiites could create such a mess following a war that we could find ourselves against a religious fundamentalist state that could develop, where that is not the case now.

"I think we have the cart before the horse. I think the U.N. ought to do its will first. Frankly, I feel that a right decision at the wrong time is a wrong decision; and somehow we must finish our war on terrorism before we take on another fight.”

or Repub. Ron Paul:

"For more than a thousand years there has been a doctrine and Christian definition of what a just war is all about. I think this effort and this plan to go to war comes up short of that doctrine. First, it says that there has to be an act of aggression; and there has not been an act of aggression against the United States. We are 6,000 miles from their shores … "

or Repub. John Duncan:

"Now there are some people here in Washington who seem to be clamoring for us to go to war against Iraq. I represent a very patriotic pro-military district in Tennessee. My people will strongly support our troops if we go to war. But I can assure you that as I go around my district I hear no clamor or even a weak desire to go to war against Iraq …

"We have been too quick to get involved in ethnic or religious disputes around the world. We have been too quick to drop bombs on people who want to be our friends. We turned NATO from a defensive organization into an offensive one in Bosnia.”

New Conservatism (Neo-Cons) first priority is foreign policy and a beleif that a defense of Israel is worth any cost even at the risk of building enormous deficits. While conservatives in general favor a strong defense budget, Neo-cons promote huge defense expenditures and have no hesitation in getting embroiled in foregin entanglements in the defense of Israel. Read the Wilkepedia article I posted that discusses Neoconservatism.

Just as there is a split in the Democrat party between so called Progressives who tend to be more liberal and moderates, there is a division in the Republican party between moderates and neocons.

GW has to appeal to a wide enough base so he mixes in religious rhetoric to appeal to his so-called "base", but has surrounded himself with men such as Wolfowitz and Perle and Cheney and Rumsefeld that are clearly in the neo-conservatist tradition.

It's not about being perjorative. It's about the "ideology" that is being espoused. Neo-Conservatism is dangerous IMO because it can bankrupt the country making it vastly weaker long term. Some would say liberalism makes the country weaker because it promotes entitlements to the detriment of capitalism. I'm ready to take up those arguments, and don't view that as a perjorative remark toward liberals.

I also have strong views against so-called free trade since not all countries operate under the same political obligations. Free trade would include slavery as a viable unchecked option if it madea company profits. There are some moral qualfiers with the term free trade, and these restrictions are not even discussed. Without them you cannot maintain the American style of living as is.

twindouble
02-04-2006, 06:33 PM
New Conservatism (Neo-Cons) first priority is foreign policy and a beleif that a defense of Israel is worth any cost even at the risk of building enormous deficits. While conservatives in general favor a strong defense budget, Neo-cons promote huge defense expenditures and have no hesitation in getting embroiled in foregin entanglements in the defense of Israel. Read the Wilkepedia article I posted that discusses Neoconservatism.

Anyone who advocates abandoning Israel at this point has a screw lose, maybe a few. That would be liken to what happened after WW2 when it comes Poland , Czechoslovakia along with Vietnam and Korea. If you don't want to finish the job, stay the hell out and dig your fox holes here.


T.D.

lsbets
02-04-2006, 06:53 PM
Sec's explanation of what a neo-conservative is proves just how delusional he is. And speaking of Wikipedia, anyone else catch the news that some Dem congresman's aide got caught putting false information up on there?

lsbets
02-04-2006, 07:02 PM
Here's the Wikipedia story, and its a good example of why you can't really trust anything on there to come from reliable sources:

"The staff of U.S. Rep Marty Meehan wiped out references to his broken term-limits pledge as well as information about his huge campaign war chest in an independent biography of the Lowell Democrat on a Web site that bills itself as the "world's largest encyclopedia," The Sun has learned.

The Meehan alterations on Wikipedia.com represent just two of more than 1,000 changes made by congressional staffers at the U.S. House of Representatives in the past six month. Wikipedia is a global reference that relies on its Internet users to add credible information to entries on millions of topics. "

http://www.lowellsun.com/ci_3444567

Tom
02-04-2006, 09:31 PM
Sec's explanation of what a neo-conservative is proves just how delusional he is. And speaking of Wikipedia, anyone else catch the news that some Dem congresman's aide got caught putting false information up on there?

Good to see Dan Rather is working again! :lol:

Secretariat
02-05-2006, 12:04 AM
New Conservatism (Neo-Cons) first priority is foreign policy and a beleif that a defense of Israel is worth any cost even at the risk of building enormous deficits. While conservatives in general favor a strong defense budget, Neo-cons promote huge defense expenditures and have no hesitation in getting embroiled in foregin entanglements in the defense of Israel. Read the Wilkepedia article I posted that discusses Neoconservatism.

Anyone who advocates abandoning Israel at this point has a screw lose, maybe a few. That would be liken to what happened after WW2 when it comes Poland , Czechoslovakia along with Vietnam and Korea. If you don't want to finish the job, stay the hell out and dig your fox holes here.


T.D.

You're living in an isolated world if you do not beleive there is a neoconservative movement. No one is talking about "abandoning" Israel as you state above, and no administration has ever advocated that (Dem o0r Repub). But there's a huge jump from launching a "pre-emptive" war based on Israel's security. I tried to put up REPUBLICAN quotes to illustrate that but you chose to ignore them and went directly to an inference of "abandoning" them. There's a huge difference between "abandoning" Israel and launching a "pre-emptive" attack on a country that is not an imminent threat to our nation. We were attacked by al Queda, not Iraq. Let's remember that.

My point is that the neoconservatism movement places Israel and foreign policy as the "foremost" decision they make - above balancing the budget, above fiscal responsilbity, and above entitlement programs in the US such as Soc. Security or Medicare. True Conservatives place the defense of the nation and balancing the budget of our nation as primary. Go back and read the "Contract With America", the first priority being "The Fiscal Responsibility Act" which called for a Balanced Budget Amendment. In this regard I am more conservative than many on this board who prefer unrestrained military spending and borrowing money from Commie China to pay for it. Additionally there is nothing in the contract about unfettered globalization. And it was the Republican House that pushed and voted for CAFTA.

I do not see the conservatism of the Wolfowitz', Perle',s Cheneys and Bush's in any way shape or form even remotely approaching traditional conservatism preached via the Contract of America.

I guess Isbets is challenging Wilkepedia's article on the origin of the neoconservatism movement. What exactly was wrong or "delusional" in what Wilkipedia defined as neoconservatism?

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''

"I participated in a hoax on the american people, the international community and the United Security Council. How do you think that makes me feel?"

Lawrence Wilkerson on NOW (Colin Powell's number one man)

lsbets
02-05-2006, 12:42 AM
Sec, make up your mind - was it oil, Halliburton, revenge for Daddy Bush, or Israel? Its funny how that's now the new mantra for the far left. I wonder why the far out left has decided to keep saying Israel, Israel, Israel ....... Its pretty interesting. What will it be next month when that doesn't resonate?

As far as Wikipedia goes, there's not much reason to read anything posted there. For all we know, you could have written the article - thats the way the place works.

ljb
02-05-2006, 12:14 PM
Sec,
Posting lengthy notes is not a good thing. Those opposed will bypass the message and pick a single statement to debate.
Conservatives are for balancing the budget/ neocons are not.
Conservatives are for States rights/neocons are not.
Just two of many examples.

Tom
02-05-2006, 12:19 PM
How can you know so much about conservatives and still be liberal????

Secretariat
02-05-2006, 01:38 PM
Sec, make up your mind - was it oil, Halliburton, revenge for Daddy Bush, or Israel? Its funny how that's now the new mantra for the far left. I wonder why the far out left has decided to keep saying Israel, Israel, Israel ....... Its pretty interesting. What will it be next month when that doesn't resonate?

As far as Wikipedia goes, there's not much reason to read anything posted there. For all we know, you could have written the article - thats the way the place works.

LJB,

You're right, but I'd figure I'd answer Isbets briefly

1. All three contributed to the decision to invade Iraq. It's not a one thing or the other. I suggest you look at the PNAC papers of which neocons Perle, Wolfowitz and Cheney were prime comtributors in regards to oil (as well as Cheney's closed energy meetings where Iraq was divided up prior to 911). If you read the writings of Feith and his support you'd see another part of the puzzle, and revenge has been a part of human history as long as time itself. Suiggest you read Aeschylus' The Persians to gather the motive of avenging a father in relation to an unfinished job in time of war.

2. As to you not trusting "anything" on Wilkepedia suit your own paranoia and do your own research on what a neocon is. There's loads of information if you choose to actually read it. I am amazed at how "sensitive" the right is to the term "neocon" when I have no problem embracing the term "liberal". All it takes is a little research to understand the origins of each.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''

"I participated in a hoax on the american people, the international community and the United Security Council. How do you think that makes me feel?"

Lawrence Wilkerson on NOW (Colin Powell's number one man)

highnote
02-05-2006, 01:45 PM
If you read the writings of Feith and his support you'd see another part of the puzzle, and revenge has been a part of human history as long as time itself. Suiggest you read Aeschylus' The Persians to gather the motive of avenging a father in relation to an unfinished job in time of war.


I always figured that revenge was the main motive. Everything else (as in the justification for invading Iraq) was just smoke and mirrors.

lsbets
02-05-2006, 02:02 PM
I have zero problem with the term neocon, but you don't know what the term means. There's an awful lot of people who feel that invading Iraq was the right thing to do for long term US security, and the atempts to call into question their loyalties and patriotism by insinuating that the secret motive was actually Israel and not the US, is quite frankly disgusting. I am proud to say I supported the war before it started, and I am proud to say I support it now. It also happens that reshaping the Middle East is not only in our best long term interest, but its also in Israel's. Well good for them, they won the bonus jackpot when we got the balls as a nation to stand up and do the right thing. That doesn't change the fact that it was the right thing for us to do.

Of course, there are those of us who understand why the folks who pull your strings Sec tell you to say what you do. The more time goes on, the more virtually everyone realizes how completely disingenuous you are, but some of us have known that for a long time now.

xtb
02-05-2006, 02:05 PM
I always figured that revenge was the main motive. Everything else (as in the justification for invading Iraq) was just smoke and mirrors.

Sure was, from a CNN article:

And, in discussing the threat posed by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, Bush said: "After all, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad."

46zilzal
02-05-2006, 02:42 PM
There's an awful lot of people who feel that invading Iraq was the right thing to do for long term US security, and the atempts to call into question their loyalties and patriotism by insinuating that the secret motive was actually Israel and not the US, is quite frankly disgusting.
Frank attacks Ted and then Ted, in retaliation, goes after Richard ...great logic

lsbets
02-05-2006, 03:19 PM
Frank attacks Ted and then Ted, in retaliation, goes after Richard ...great logic

If you don't understand the fight we are in, your example would make sense. However, since we are in an actual war of ideoligies (and you have previously stated we are not engaged in a war) your example is meanlingless. It is all a part of the same action.

ljb
02-05-2006, 04:11 PM
If you don't understand the fight we are in, your example would make sense. However, since we are in an actual war of ideoligies (and you have previously stated we are not engaged in a war) your example is meanlingless. It is all a part of the same action.
So then LS, if I read you correctly, we are in a holy war much like in the middle ages. I stated years ago that this was a holy war. Glad to see you agree. I also said somewhere that once the Christians eliminate the Muslims the Jews better watch their backs. Pack a lunch, this is going to be a lengthy ride.

ljb
02-05-2006, 04:13 PM
Exactly. Freeing up fed funds for those that need it most.
You mean like the Walton heirs ?

ljb
02-05-2006, 04:15 PM
How can you know so much about conservatives and still be liberal????
The same way you know so much about liberals and claim to be a conservative.

Tom
02-05-2006, 05:49 PM
Touche!