New Charlestown owner needs help !!

[Si2see]

Hey everyone I want to own a horse or two at charlestown within the next couple of months. A few friends that I know and trust want to join in with me in owning and trust my knowledge and abilities to act as a managing partner or whatever I might be. I was wondering if any experienced owner or trainer would help me understand the starting out process a little.

I understand horse racing, understand you have to be a king to make money at charlestown. I understand the good and the bad about charlestown. There are many reasons why I am choosing there for right now. One reason is a select few trainers will do the purse split deal and not charge monthly. Regardless of how much I may make or not make like that, that is how it needs to be because we are three guys in it trying to have fun a make some money on our investment if all works out. I was wondering if anyone has contact information on any of these type trainers ( Tony Carone or whoever else may be interested )


Second, What I don't know is how to get started and wanted a little bit of help before I head to charlestown to try and set things up. If anyone with owning or training experience would like to help post here or pm me I would appreciate it.

[GlenninOhio]

There are many reasons why I am choosing there for right now. One reason is a select few trainers will do the purse split deal and not charge monthly. Regardless of how much I may make or not make like that, that is how it needs to be because we are three guys in it trying to have fun a make some money on our investment if all works out. I was wondering if anyone has contact information on any of these type trainers ( Tony Carone or whoever else may be interested )



What is "the purse split deal"? 50-50?

What happens if your horses are not being productive? Are they (and you) out on their ear? Or perhaps some skimping on the care, attention and feed they receive?

Please don't take this personally and no offense intended, but if the three of you combined can't afford to pay a trainer a day rate I wonder if you're jumping the gun on getting involved with owning horses.

[Si2see]

Split purses is exactly what I was referring to. And it isn't not affording the day rate, thats just not the route we want to go. Most people that use someting like that win 2 races and realize the trainer is getting a bunch of the purse and go to someone who charges a day rate. Or maybe the horse or trainer doesnt produce then we will be on the downside just like anyone in the business can be at anytime. This is just the best way for us to do it right now. Maybe later I will get one of the best trainers and pay a huge day rate, but not now this isn't just about me but about 3 people who just want to have fun doing it but like most people in the industry we want to win as much as possible.

As far as the condition the horse is kept, this is why I want and ask for advice from the charlestown insiders. Who to talk to, who not to talk to etc etc. I love horses and would never want my horses mistreated, but anyone could not show the horse the attention and care that they need again thats why I ask for help from the people who know. Jason

[Si2see]

Also I would really love JOTB to give me his insight on the best people to talk to and the way to go about it as he knows almost everyone at charlestown from what I have been reading.

[jotb]

Hey everyone I want to own a horse or two at charlestown within the next couple of months. A few friends that I know and trust want to join in with me in owning and trust my knowledge and abilities to act as a managing partner or whatever I might be. I was wondering if any experienced owner or trainer would help me understand the starting out process a little.

I understand horse racing, understand you have to be a king to make money at charlestown. I understand the good and the bad about charlestown. There are many reasons why I am choosing there for right now. One reason is a select few trainers will do the purse split deal and not charge monthly. Regardless of how much I may make or not make like that, that is how it needs to be because we are three guys in it trying to have fun a make some money on our investment if all works out. I was wondering if anyone has contact information on any of these type trainers ( Tony Carone or whoever else may be interested )


Second, What I don't know is how to get started and wanted a little bit of help before I head to charlestown to try and set things up. If anyone with owning or training experience would like to help post here or pm me I would appreciate it.


Hello SI2SEE:

How much money are you looking to invest?

Joe

[Si2see]

check your pm's

[kenwoodallpromos]

In addition to anything else, I would contact the West Virginia Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association. You may join them anyway.

[Zman179]

It would seem to me that a trainer who gets paid via a purse split deal would not think twice about running an unsound horse. The trainer would have nothing to lose in this scenario; and if the horse were to become injured, that trainer could simply eject your horse from his stable.

If I were you, I'd stick to day rate trainers. Trainers who train for cuts of purses usually aren't worth their weight. Remember these six words, it's the truest statement ever made:

You get what you pay for.

[GlenninOhio]

It would seem to me that a trainer who gets paid via a purse split deal would not think twice about running an unsound horse. The trainer would have nothing to lose in this scenario; and if the horse were to become injured, that trainer could simply eject your horse from his stable.

If I were you, I'd stick to day rate trainers. Trainers who train for cuts of purses usually aren't worth their weight. Remember these six words, it's the truest statement ever made:

You get what you pay for.

Amen, Zman.

Another point I thought of after I posted my concerns to this thread yesterday relates to the decision process on where to race the horse next - reading condition books, etc.

Even when you're paying them a day rate, most trainers are not overly enthusiastic about major owner input into this process. But they put up with it, as most owners find this to be one of the more enjoyable aspects of the game.

A trainer who's charging you zero for room and board would be very likely to tell you to take your input and put it where the sun don't shine - he's paying the bills.

[Si2see]

Zman you make a good point about the trainer just wanting to stick you with the horse once or if it can't produce anymore. That would be something to address but my input would be put the horse where it can win If it doesnt win at the price we take it at then drop it down in class.

Also about the condition book, if the trainer wants me to pick the races then so be it, if he wants to then that works but I assure you I wont jump to the only trainer who wants to jump on this way of doing it. If isn't who I feel is the right individual then we will just wait until that person comes along. Thanks for everyones input

[Doc]

Most of the trainers I know who operate on "deals" are the bottom-feeders...you'd be best to steer clear of them. Why not check the trainer standings at Chuck Town and see who the top guys are? Before you invest, ask about some of these trainers. You can go broke in a hurry so it pays to take your time and don't be so gung-ho on "deals."

[Si2see]

Doc thanks for your input. I try to at least watch every chuck town race of every night if I have the chance and if I don't I definetly read the results every morning of what happened to each horse the night before. Don't let me fool you when I say this is the way it has to be.... I have to have a trainer that will do this right now or else this will never go past this thread. But I can promise you I will not jump in with anybody who is willing to take me in as a new owner it will not be an overnight process I will do the research and whatever else it takes before I even think about dropping a claim.

Top trainers there may or may not be interested in this, however I know of some of them who have or are working with a group of people or even partnerships who work the purse structure out like this. I just basically need help getting in touch with these people. Thanks again

[CryingForTheHorses]

Zman you make a good point about the trainer just wanting to stick you with the horse once or if it can't produce anymore. That would be something to address but my input would be put the horse where it can win If it doesnt win at the price we take it at then drop it down in class.

Also about the condition book, if the trainer wants me to pick the races then so be it, if he wants to then that works but I assure you I wont jump to the only trainer who wants to jump on this way of doing it. If isn't who I feel is the right individual then we will just wait until that person comes along. Thanks for everyones input

All of you make very good assertions of a trainer trying to train horses on deals. Yes there are guys who will "screw" you and yes there are uys who dont look after your horse.Many People train horses for 1 reason and thats to see how much he can get out of the owner and horse. Those guys are here to get you and then are gone.You need a honest trainer who will tell you like it is!! You need a trainer that ISNT a gambler and you need a trainer who cares for the horse.I myself have set up a partnership where each partner gets a split of the monthly cost of the horse, NOT the day rate.That way they see what there horse is getting and eases the burden of paying a day rate and is 10 times cheaper,Also have a continuacy plan for a horse that needs time on the farm.In this day and age Day rate owners are becoming few unless your very wealthy.You must remember a happy horse is a race horse..

[Suff]

Select a Trainer. A guy with a decent Rep. He'll hold your hand.

Its fairly simple.....

One unsolicited piece of advice I'll give you. Do not select your own claims at first. Unless you intimately know the stock on the grounds I would follow your Trainers advice. They are out there every day. They see them exercising, they here Jockeys talk up, or talk down a horse. They're on the pulse. Claiming low-level to mid-level Thoroughbreds off Past Performances is not a good idea.

Is JOTB at C-town? He'll guide you along. I had him up to Saratoga three years ago. A nice guy who's been grinding it out in the trench's long enough to help you avoid the Land Mines.

G'luck.

[Koko]

Since I've never owned or trained maybe my three cents isn't worth reading, but from a basic economics standpoint, it seems to me like a trainer working with a new client with claiming stock who only gets paid when the horse gets in the money has a real strong vested interest in running the horse where it can win.

This implies that your asset will quite often be in a situation where it may well be claimed at a level below it's worth and/or below what you paid for it. After all, if he believes that the only way he can get paid is to place it in a claiming race that's half of what you just paid for it, well how long do you think he'll be willing to race it above a level it can win easily and thus be likely claim bait.

It's sort of like the incongruent interests of a full service stockbroker and his client. He gets paid on transactions, not on the client making money.

Sounds like trouble in the making to me, but what do I know.

[Si2see]

Select a Trainer. A guy with a decent Rep. He'll hold your hand.

Its fairly simple.....

One unsolicited piece of advice I'll give you. Do not select your own claims at first. Unless you intimately know the stock on the grounds I would follow your Trainers advice. They are out there every day. They see them exercising, they here Jockeys talk up, or talk down a horse. They're on the pulse. Claiming low-level to mid-level Thoroughbreds off Past Performances is not a good idea.

Is JOTB at C-town? He'll guide you along. I had him up to Saratoga three years ago. A nice guy who's been grinding it out in the trench's long enough to help you avoid the Land Mines.

G'luck.

JOTB was one of the few people who is interested in helping me at charlestown and I will take the blame for that not happening yet, I didn't want to bother anyone until the money was at least togehter, Now it is. I just have to know who the trainer is so I can set up at that track and get my owners license, account at the track, and deposit the money and so fourth. And I agree 100% let the trainer pick the claim. I know charlestown horses that run probably half the horses every race, but I know nothing about them other than that and I would be foolish to try it myself.

[LRL Racing]

Be very careful in your selection of trainers. I agree with getting a trainer who does not gamble and who wins at a high percentage. The claiming game is very, very tough and to me impossible as the horses are someone else's problem unless you are very lucky. I would advise anyone to find a good horse and just make an offer that will buy the horse. Unless you have the right guy and the patience to buy babies that is the only other way to get in the game. These thoughts come from several years of claiming and zero success with a top guy.
If you do proceed with your plan Good Luck as most people lose money in this business so be prepared to lose your initial investment which may not be much fun.

[Whitehos]

CONGRATULATIONS,
You are about to be the first success using your business plan. Find an honest trainer and you will be one of a very few owners who have succeeded at this. Most honest trainers are losers. In this business if you don't cheat you don't eat.

[Si2see]

Success to you and to me could be two different things. I could win one race and feel like I got out of it what I put in....

[CryingForTheHorses]

CONGRATULATIONS,
You are about to be the first success using your business plan. Find an honest trainer and you will be one of a very few owners who have succeeded at this. Most honest trainers are losers. In this business if you don't cheat you don't eat.

Im a very honest trainer but dont consider myself a loser. I have kept my belly full since I left home as a kid without cheating.The little guy gets shuffled to the back,They are bullied and lots of times have to chase their money. A lot of small trainers go into the hole because they are afraid to stickup for what is owed to them for fear of losing their horses.Be thankful you find a honest trainer who you can relate with..WE are few and far between.

[Koko]

Be very careful in your selection of trainers. I agree with getting a trainer who does not gamble and who wins at a high percentage. fun.

No offense intended Si2see.

Sounds kind of like a guy looking for a dream girl that doesn't exist.
Poor, lazy, ugly, shiftless jerk seeking rich, educated, generous, gorgeous talented, loving woman to match up with.

The way the business is set up, trainers who get a daily rate and a % of profits don't have their interests congruent with owners, much less those working on a percentage of profits, because naturally, his profits will likely have to come at the expense of your assets being sold off cheaply in the process, unless he's the exceptional talent who can claim other trainer's best prospects or claim other trainers chickenshit and through alchemy turn it into chicken salad.

Doesn't a typical trainer who works on a percentage of profits have to be a very patient man when it comes to getting paid, or look out for himself and subject your horse to being claimed at a generous price to the buyer?

Isn't there a reason that the better trainers generally don't work on a percentage of profits? Isn't that reason the fact that there really is no free lunch, you're going to pay one way or another? So why not put the trainer in a position that affords him a little more incentive to look out for your interests?

[IRISHLADSTABLE]

I formed IRISHLADSTABLE'S in July of 1984. After claiming a few horses (4)
I realized I couldn't continue paying the trainer ( Pat Cuccurullo) Full price
for any new claims. (Assuming I still had the original 4 claims)
So here is the deal I made

The first 4 claims I paid full price $25.00 per day per horse plus Vet & Blacksmith

The 5th claim and above I paid a Flat rate ( I believe $400.00 per horse )

I paid for any new claims in Full Plus Taxes and Pat would be a 25% percent
owner of the new claim and I would be 75% Percent owner.

Each month Pat would get $400.00 plus 35% percent of the earnings .

If a horse was claimed at or below what I paid for the horse I received all the money from that claim.

If a horse was claimed above the claiming price I would get my orignal
money back, and we would then split the difference of the claim.

Jimmy