Funny Cide 200 debut questions [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

highnote

01-08-2006, 11:36 AM

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=437442&category=SPORTS&newsdate=1/8/2006

I have a few questions:

Funny Cide started for the first time this year in a 6 furlong sprint. The article said Tagg wanted to get a race in him because he could be pointing for the Donn.

1.) Aren't horses supposed to be "well-meant" in every race? The connections must have known Funny Cide had little chance of winning.

2.) Do you think they had any intention of winning?

3.) I know this goes on every day around the country -- trainers race their charges into condition, but, in theory, is this within the boundaries of "well-meant"?

BIG RED

01-08-2006, 12:20 PM

Nice point. I come across some horses who are grade calibur and are entered in say a classified allowance race. He should take the race, but , what are the trainers intentions? Is he in to scoop up some money, or just a tightener. So now I'm back to guessing again. Not that I would bet the mentioned horse, his odds would be lowly, but it would be great to know for the other runners.

GlenninOhio

01-08-2006, 12:59 PM

Some points to ponder before throwing out this race as a "tightener":

1. Excerpt from 1/7/05 DRF "Closer Look" on Funny Cide: "Should get plenty of pace to attack late; you could argue that this is a prep for something longer down the road, but he did win going 7 panels to kick off his 2004 season over this surface".

2. Even confirmed route horses will often flash unusually good speed in a sprint on the first after the layoff.

3. No speed and couldn't close ("faded" according to chart caller).

highnote

01-08-2006, 03:47 PM

Thanks. That makes sense.

Hosshead

01-08-2006, 11:58 PM

I've heard it estimated that, on avg., only 1/3 of a horse's starts are "well meant".

Sometimes those of us who are not privy to the "inside information", can only get a clue (as in this case) when there is an interview with the connections of a big name horse involved.

Before this race, Tagg said that he would rather have had a 7F race, instead of a 6F race.

He didn't sound confident about a 7F race, much less a 6F.
I think that he looked at this race as a "tightener".
When I heard that, I didn't give FC much chance in this one. But after his dismall showing and reported back problems, he could be on his way out.
Certainly I would think the results of his next race would be a big "decision maker" regarding his future, even though he IS a gelding.
But he is a tough game old horse, so maybe he'll work his way through it.

highnote

01-09-2006, 12:07 AM

Ideally, there would be trial races. There could be betting on them, but
everyone would know that the horses are not well-meant. The horses would only be entered for tightening purposes.

I suppose the only way to know when a horse is well-meant is if it is entered in a grade one race. However, I've even seen horses using grade ones in this country as a prep for a grade one in another country -- like prepping in the Arc for the Breeders' Cup Turf. That would be an exception rather than the rule. Usually, grade ones can be bet with confidence.

The key factor in a grade one is fitness. The fastest, most fit horse usually wins. I've seen plenty of grade one horses lose grade two races when they are not fit enough, even though they are fast enough.

toetoe

01-09-2006, 12:34 AM

I've noticed that Barclay Tagg ALWAYS wants something different. He's just settling for this race to be a nice guy. :rolleyes: Imagine Bobby Frankel at the steeplechase meets. How about a three-horse race with charges trained by Bobby, Barclay and Uncle Neil Drysdale? Better have an extra carded for that day.

Valuist

01-09-2006, 10:21 AM

If they want to go stakes, they should go against NY breds. But even that might be pushing it. 45000/50000 claiming might be a better option IF they are willing to do it.

GeTydOn

01-10-2006, 11:59 AM

Wow. 45000/50000 claimer. Gimme a break.

:rolleyes:

Valuist

01-10-2006, 12:18 PM

No joke. Take a look at pps from any open 45/50 claimer at GP. You'll see horses who can run Beyers in the high nineties. Even a few who've run triple digits. Funny Cide is nowhere near the horse he used to be.

GlenninOhio

01-10-2006, 04:30 PM

I agree with Valuist - $50000 claimers attract many solid older horses that are out of lifetime conditions (so they can't run in most allowances) but who are not competitive enough for stakes.

The good news for Funny Cide is he's got conditions out the ying-yang, not having won a race since October 2004. The bad news is a quick check of the GP, Aqu and SA condition books shows no conditioned allowance races coming up (NW1year and so on) - they all seem to be lifetime (N2X, etc.). The only choice would be to run him for a tag in one of the optional claimers. The tags run from $50K to $100K depending on the race and the track.

Sure seems to me like someone would claim him - not because he's worth the money but just to say they own a Derby winner.

So the choices seem to be:

1. Keep running him over his head, which is not doing right by the horse.

2. Find a conditioned allowance somewhere. Maybe the GP racing secretary would write one as an extra if asked - the horse is certainly an attraction.

3. Run him for a tag and run a high risk of losing him.

4. Retire him and let him enjoy being a pampered horse for the rest of his days. He sure deserves it.

Art P

01-10-2006, 06:54 PM

Hes a shot horse dont waste a nickel on that pig anymore

toetoe

01-10-2006, 08:16 PM

Try the Balto Star thing --- frontrunner at 12 furlongs on turf. Or steeplechasing. Barclay could ride him. :) That's nice.

DrugSalvastore

01-10-2006, 11:26 PM

Hes a shot horse dont waste a nickel on that pig anymore

Give him to Dutrow----he'll probably get him looking like the reincarnation of Dubai Millennium.

GeTydOn

01-10-2006, 11:58 PM

Hmmm. Maybe a overnight stakes would be an option. Still not convinced he'd even belong there with 45's-50's. But no way that horse gets put in for a tag. Gotta believe he'd be retired before that would happen.

Ron

01-11-2006, 12:15 AM

I think Funny brings more fans to the sport. Keep running him in the spotlight.

rastajenk

01-11-2006, 02:31 AM

In theory, yeah. But the way he's been handled, I don't think it's working that way: his feet hurt, his back hurts, it's too hot, it's too cold, it's too humid, he has to carry too much weight, the distance isn't quite right. Is there no end to the excuses played on his behalf? That's not the kind of thing that attracts fans.

I saw Funny <blank><blank><blank><blank> in the NYTimes crossword puzzle a couple weeks ago, so he's definitely a part of American folklore now, but as a racing attraction, the thrill is gone.

two thumbs up

01-11-2006, 05:26 AM

The horse has paid his dues.Even if he cant breed, he sure would be happy turned out and not cooped up in a stall all day. Enough is enough.

Valuist

01-11-2006, 12:09 PM

GlenninOhio

01-11-2006, 01:34 PM

Not a bad idea. But if he is still sound, he is a drawing card. Run him where he can win. If they don't want to try 50000 claiming, then go classified allowance. Sometimes good horses go bad for awhile but need to get their confidence back. I think its a lot better for the sport if he wins a classified allowance race than if he runs 9th in the Donn, beaten double digits.

One thing I think we need to keep in mind here is that it may not be all Tagg by any means when it comes to deciding where to place this horse.

My undertsanding is that the partnership that owns him does not exactly qualify as the most sophisticated of ownership, and if they are anything like the participants in some partnerships I've seen the decision process can be very much skewed away from the best interests of the horse and toward maximizing the entertainment value to the partners.

If the owners don't feel it would be "fun" to run him where he belongs and are instead desirous of maintaining the atmosphere of "the big show", the horse is going to suffer for it. They don't comp the owners of allowance horses at the best dining room at the track.

Achilles

01-11-2006, 06:39 PM

Glenn,

I like the horse; he was my first longshot winner, ever, in the Derby.

From what I've read about Barclay Tagg, if he thought that the owners were running the horse just for their own entertainment and comps, he'd dump them. He does not need a non-winning horse taking up stall space. I think he still believes in the horse. (Watch................just 'cause I wrote that, they'll probably retire him tomorrow morning.)

I've never posted any picks here or made any predictions, but I'll go out on a short limb and say that if he stays in Tagg's barn, I think he'll win a graded race this season.

He's a five-year-old gelding. Do some digging and try to find what Mark Cramer has written about 5YO geldings, and how they often seem to blossom in their 5YO season. He was writing about claimers I think, but there probably weren't many stakes-quality geldings to track then, or now for that matter.

Anyway, I've got a soft spot for the nag, and I hope re resurrects his reputation.:jump::jump::jump:

toetoe

01-11-2006, 06:50 PM

Cramer's late bloomers were not graded winners. I agree Tagg expects graded success, else why bother? However, he won't even win another non-state-bred race EVER, methinks. The sooner Tagg drops to NY-bred races, the better. Retirement is another low-priced favorite.

GlenninOhio

01-12-2006, 07:14 AM

Achilles -

Funny Cide just turned 6.

I'm afraid that adds credibility to the "over the hill" case. :(

Ron

01-12-2006, 10:39 PM

From what I've read about Barclay Tagg, if he thought that the owners were running the horse just for their own entertainment and comps, he'd dump them. He does not need a non-winning horse taking up stall space. I think he still believes in the horse.

I think that you read that BEFORE he had a Derby winner. I think he's content on milking this.

Achilles

01-12-2006, 11:02 PM

Ron,

What exactly would Tagg be milking, the media attention, which he despises?

As far as money goes, he still runs a public stable, so if the horse doesn't win or place well, all he gets dollarwise is his day rate. I think that there are other owners who would like to have a derby-winning trainer, so his loyalty to the horse is somewhat commendable. Having said that, if FC doesn't turn it around in the first half of the new season (or sooner), Tagg's loyalty could be viewed as just plain thick-headedness.:bang:

two thumbs up

01-13-2006, 01:13 PM

After winning the races that he did, I cant imagine running him for a tag or even allowance. He has earned a place in racing history and if he got beat in a 50 claimer then it will diminish the charisma that he earned. All people involved with this horse have been fortunate to have been along for the ride. Park the school bus.

Valuist

01-13-2006, 01:50 PM

But he's a gelding so its not as if the connections have to be fearful that he'd hurt his value as a stallion prospect. I think running horses over their head probably does more to contribute to injury than any other factor.

GlenninOhio

01-13-2006, 02:26 PM

I think running horses over their head probably does more to contribute to injury than any other factor.

Absolutely, positively the case.

And again I'll point out that despite the romanticized view of trainers like Tagg as rugged individualists who will tell their owners to take a walk if what they want could be detrimental to the horse, it is very hard for any trainer to say no to owners who are determined to run a horse with back class over his head.

In my opinion that's where the pressure is coming from here - Saka-waka or whatever they call themselves.

JPinMaryland

01-14-2006, 05:29 PM

I think some of you are overanalyzing FC. It seems to me he was always an up and down horse. It seems at least since he was 4, that he scratches a lot and he sometimes finishes way out of it. But then he hits one now and then. Any reason to think he's changed?

So I dont agree that there is "no end" to the excuses being played. He's just an up and down horse. He could win a G1 this year too, why not?

toetoe

01-14-2006, 07:28 PM

JP,

Far be it from me to beat a dead horse, :lol: , but he could not win a Gr. IV, if they had them. He won't win a non-restricted race worth $200,000, ever. I love him, he gave me a TC thrill, but it's not gonna happen. :)

GaryG

01-14-2006, 07:33 PM

Better to go out like Dimaggio than Mays, although it is already too late for that. This horse has earned a ton om money and deserves to be remembered that way. He also deserves a dignified retirement.

Observer

01-14-2006, 11:20 PM

...He also deserves a dignified retirement.

And what horse doesn't??

GlenninOhio

01-18-2006, 07:32 AM

From Bloodstock Journal:

"Dual Classic winner FUNNY CIDE (Distorted Humor), who finished seventh in the Mr. Prospector (G3), clocked four furlongs :47 4/5 over a fast track at Gulstream Park on Tuesday."

(This was 3/14)

He can still motor in the morning.

DrugSalvastore

01-18-2006, 08:10 AM

FWIW, Funny Cide did come back in the worst imagineable spot.

I mean the opening quarter in his return race was nothing short of a joke. It was a 22.65 first quarter, on a day when four much cheaper races were run at the six furlong distance--and all produced faster opening quarters.

The fractions in Funny Cide's race (1/4 by 1/4) went: 22.65--22.50--23.40 to produce a track record final clocking of 1:08.50. It broke Saratoga County's mark of 1:09 flat from last year.

If anyone actually expected much from Funny Cide this year---it would be silly to let his return race be the reason why you think he's hopelessly finished. I don't think they could have picked a worse spot to return in.

01-18-2006, 08:14 AM

What you say is true DrugS, but with the dawdling pace, shouldn't FC have been able to be up somewhere near the lead? When he is right, he is always near the front, route or sprint.

DrugSalvastore

01-18-2006, 08:45 AM

What you say is true DrugS, but with the dawdling pace, shouldn't FC have been able to be up somewhere near the lead? When he is right, he is always near the front, route or sprint.

It's a good point....

But, it looked like there was enough speed in that race on paper (speedball Pisgah missing the break so badly was the culprit for that pace scenerio)

With FC breaking from a rail post, and distance races being the long term goal, I would think Tagg and Prado went into that race with the thought of taking back, saving ground, and making one-run.

You are right though---when FC was at his best...he was more than capable of attending that slow pace.

Valuist

01-18-2006, 09:37 AM

DrugSalvastore

01-18-2006, 11:07 AM

I thought Pisgah was going to run big in that race. I think if he breaks normally, they never catch him.

Before we get too impressed over the horses that beat Funny Cide, lets not forget that winner was coming out of a NW2X at Churchill in his last; albeit a very tough NW2X, but one nonetheless.

Yea---Pisgah badly blew the brake...what a horror show that was.

The top two finisher in that race both fit the "first time 4yo off a freshening" angle that (according to Thoro-Graph) produces more lifetime top figures than any other situation.

IMO, the slow early pace is what led to the sharp final time. The top three finishers in that race, were racing in the top three positons after that slow opening quarter.

GlenninOhio

01-18-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
What you say is true DrugS, but with the dawdling pace, shouldn't FC have been able to be up somewhere near the lead? When he is right, he is always near the front, route or sprint.

It's a good point....

But, it looked like there was enough speed in that race on paper (speedball Pisgah missing the break so badly was the culprit for that pace scenerio)

With FC breaking from a rail post, and distance races being the long term goal, I would think Tagg and Prado went into that race with the thought of taking back, saving ground, and making one-run.

You are right though---when FC was at his best...he was more than capable of attending that slow pace.

I think what happens 9 times out of 10 in these kinds of "pace falls apart" situations is the pre-race strategy (which I'm sure contemplated Pisgah on the lead) sticks even though the pace situation is completely different than what they were contemplating.

A truly exceptional ride occurs when the jockey can react quickly enough to these changes in the pace dynamics to change the strategy as the race unfolds.

I'm not faulting Prado (or Tagg) here - nor am I giving Funny Cide a pass by saying he ran as well as could be expected - but I do agree with DrugS that this turned out to be an awful spot for the horse.

Valuist

01-30-2006, 03:45 PM

They must've been listening since they entered Funny Cide in a classified allowance race this Thursday at 1 mile. And this field will be no pushover, with Sun King, Sir Greeley and Kennel Up also in the race.

kenwoodallpromos

01-30-2006, 06:31 PM

The only races FC won prior to the Derby was state-bred. Fine by me if he runs in ALW's from now on. Winning anything is better than losing.
The busboys will run him until he can run no more then turn him out. He is their and Tagg's biggest claim to fame.

Wiley

02-01-2006, 09:57 AM

My local paper today the FreePress had a blurb in the sports section on FC. Apparently he is a two time Triple Crown winner! I did not realize he got in a time machine to stop the foaling of Ten Most Wanted , Empire Maker, then got back in the machine to stay three and stop the foaling of Smarty Jones and Birdstone.
Along the same lines in Sports Illustrated this week in a tribute to Jerry Bailey, another little blurb, they call Cigar a gelding! Racing gets no respect. Too bad FC cannot remain competitive at the higher level because he still does warrant some interest from the non-race crowd.

kenwoodallpromos

02-01-2006, 12:59 PM

Wiley- A good opportunity for you to write a letter to the editor and educate the public about TC races!

Valuist

02-02-2006, 01:14 PM

3-1 against Sun Bank, Sir Greeley, Contante and Kennel Up? I just don't think he'll be that low. If we had betting exchanges here, I'd be betting against FC.

PaceAdvantage

02-02-2006, 10:03 PM

toetoe

02-02-2006, 10:11 PM

7-to-10 on Sun King. :lol: That was bad. FC likes it long and one-paced, I guess. He was running his n@ts off at the end, just couldn't quicken. Bring back Santos? :confused:

Zaf

02-02-2006, 10:17 PM

I passed the race, but thought the odds on Sun King were a bit outrageous....

Is it just me, or does Funny Cide visually look like a horse who wants to be on the lead from the start, but isn't allowed the chance....

I agree 1000 %, its like deja vu, the twilight zone, this scenario has played out many times already. Glad he did pretty well today as I gaze at my framed LeRoy Neiman print of him :)

Z

DrugSalvastore

02-02-2006, 10:21 PM

I passed the race, but thought the odds on Sun King were a bit outrageous....

Is it just me, or does Funny Cide visually look like a horse who wants to be on the lead from the start, but isn't allowed the chance....

I agree that the price on Sun King wasn't fair at all. He did deserve favortisim in that spot though. Since finishing only a length behind Giacomo in the Preakness, from five starts, he's come back to win a pair of Graded stakes with triple digit beyers--and had multiple placing in Grade 1 races. Only out of the money finish when he set the pace in the Classic. He also was 2-for-2 at the distance, and 1-for-1 at the track with a 104 Beyer early season 3yo score. The trainer was also quoted as saying "he's doing extremely well." No way does that justify odds-on in that spot though.

Funny Cide may look like he wants to be on the lead--but I'm sure his connection don't want him there. I bet him in the Louisianna Derby, he made the lead that day--are ran extremely akwardly. He let Peace Rules and another horse blow past him on the turn--and after he looked like he was going to get drowned, he re-rallied for 3rd I think. The old racing saying "have a target, don't be one" is, I'm sure what the connections of Funny Cide believe is best for him. His best performances (Ky Derby, Preakness, JCGC etc) have come when he's laid right off a target pace-setter, and pounced when he had to. That's kind have been his game ever since the loss in the LA Derby.

JPinMaryland

02-05-2006, 08:07 PM

okay so what's the opinion on the greying gelding now? Needs to be at an amusement park? Ready for a Grade IV??

Valuist

02-05-2006, 10:26 PM

I was actually shocked that he ran as well as he did. That allowance race was better than some Grade 3s I've seen.

Hosshead

02-06-2006, 05:30 AM

Funny Cide's last 4 race Distances:
June 2005 - 1 1/8 mi.

Then stretches out to:
July. 2005 - 1 1/4 mi.

Then shortens up to:
Jan...2006 - ......6f

Then stretches out to:
Feb...2006...1 mi.

Not the horse he used to be but:
It's not his fault he doesn't know what kind of race/pace to run.
How about if the trainer figures out what distance to train him for ?

BIG RED

02-06-2006, 05:06 PM

He got 2nd and was 3rd betting fave. Didn't win. Thought I would update this

NY BRED

02-07-2006, 04:10 AM

i've followed this horse since his first win and was lucky enough
to have bet him in the winter book.

vegas took a big,big, hit on this horse through the winter book, obviously
at the hands of the sackatoga partnership,if not, jack knowlton.

this wonderful gelding has won @ 3,000,000,000 and should have been retired at
least a year ago.Moreover, he would have been retired after the belmont
if he were not a gelding, and continues to race today because he is a gelding.

the owners will argue he is racing fit, and lives a better life racing than
living the life of a retired horse.

my argument is simple:he has lost his edge due to age(physical) and
more likely mental issues losing to fields that were beatable for
him in his prime.

do the right thing and retire this guy before he faces injury or worse..