Thoro-Graph - All Online Data is FREE 12/26-12/31

[Kohl]

Received this in my email today in case anyone is interested and ever wanted to check out:

Happy Holidays from Thoro-Graph
The BEST Data in Life Is FREE
Race Days 12/26-12/31

Online Only – Download Any or All of
our Products Absolutely FREE

New Customers must register for an account. Go to
http://www.thorograph.com (http://www.thorograph.com/index.php?utid=free2k5&ref=free2k5)
and click on Order Online.

[takeout]

Why do they want your credit card number if it’s free?

[takeout]

Correction: “absolutely FREE”

I didn’t know that distinction could be made. Kind of like being absolutely pregnant, I guess. :liar:

[DJofSD]

You mean like "new and improved?"

[DerbyTrail]

Why do they want your credit card number if it’s free?

Takeout..

You just have to establish an account. You don't have to buy any product EVER if you don't care to. TG does this every year as a thank you to its real and loyal customers. It's about as generous an offering as you'll find around this industry. You can use the figures for every track out there (at a $25/track/day value) ALL NEXT WEEK. That will include Wednesday's $184,000 Big A carryover and the Opening Week of Santa Anita... It gives you an incredible chance to learn how Thoro-Graph's figs work, their patterns, etc.. Obviously they'd like it if you became a regular user, but you're not obligated.

This is the proverbial gift horse... (By questioning its voracity, I'd guess you're the type that expects it to take a few fingers off when you look in it's mouth.)

[andicap]

Maybe they think Jerry Brown is going to take your credit card numbers and do some nefarious stuff arund the web with them?
:D

[takeout]

This is the proverbial gift horse... (By questioning its voracity, I'd guess you're the type that expects it to take a few fingers off when you look in it's mouth.)
You got that right.

My original question still goes unanswered. If it's free why do they need a credit card number?

[Figman]

Derby Trail,
You're getting to sound a lot like JJ Graci!
Why should Jerry Brown get my credit card number is a legitimate question?

[cj]

It is pretty simple in my opinion. He is giving away a week's worth of data, and to get it, you have to register to be a customer. He wants you to come back and purchase later of course.

That said, who is more likely to come back, someone already with an account that is ready to go, or someone that has to go through the whole process? It is strictly business.

I don't agree with some of JBs figure making theories, so its not like I'm trying to pimp his stuff, but I don't think I've ever heard a single complaint about his customer service or the way he treats customers. I seriously doubt there is anything to worry about.

Were you guys just asking as a form of complaining, or did you really not see this as the reason?

[Speed Figure]

That makes sense to me. You can't get any of the free files that bris offers unless you have an account.

[BillW]

Derby Trail,
You're getting to sound a lot like JJ Graci!
Why should Jerry Brown get my credit card number is a legitimate question?

It's a condition for not paying for an intro week of his files. If the cost is too much for you just pass - I am.

Bill

[Zaf]

It's a condition for not paying for an intro week of his files. If the cost is too much for you just pass - I am.

Bill

I'll pass too, I am very happy with CJ's.

Z

[Indulto]

Figman,

If I were a paying customer for handicapping data supplied on-line, I might resent others receiving for free what I had to pay several hundred dollars for, especially if additional use of that data lowered payoffs on my wagers based on that data.

"Try before you buy" is the only way to attract skeptical, if not cynical, new customers. By insisting that requests for evaluating commercially-viable data be honored only when there is no doubt they are both legitimate and qualified, the marketer appears to be keeping faith with its existing customer base.

The marketing technique itself appears hard to criticize, regardless of one's opinion of the product or the marketer.

[Figman]

I just said "it is a good question."

I've been making my own figures for many many years and have seen the Brown and the Rags many times over. Not interested!

Extremely happy to use my own figs and variants and supplement with CJ's great creation and John Beaver's Yeast.

[jorge jaramillo]

MAYBE THE IDEA IS TO CONTROL THAE REGULAR CLIENTS, MOST PROBABLY THIS PROMOTION DON'T APPLY TO THEM, BESIDES. I AGREE WITH CJ :cool: :sleeping: ........................

[Indulto]

Jor-Jar,

Preventing existing customers from getting a freebie doesn't seem a likely rationale. Even if credit cards numbers weren’t involved, couldn’t existing customers be identified through URLs or delivery denied to new requests from URLs having already received a prior delivery?

Still, Dave Schwartz's GOP conversion joke inspired the following question: Do any data sellers who support and/or facilitate wagering rebates based on volume also apply the same principle to sales of their products?

[takeout]

The marketing technique itself appears hard to criticize,
Not for me. ;) :ThmbDown:

[Bruddah]

A. as with anything in life, there is some risk.
B. Youse takes yer chances or youse don't.

END OF DISCUSSION!!

[pat]

HEY GUYS

This is done every year for about the last 5 Xmas's . I have used it every time and never had a problem .Lets stop being so cynical and accept it for what it is, a freebie.

[DerbyTrail]

HEY GUYS This is done every year for about the last 5 Xmas's . I have used it every time and never had a problem .Lets stop being so cynical and accept it for what it is, a freebie.

Thx Pat for injecting a note of logic and rationality to these increasingly bizarre responses to TG's annual 'figs-a-palooza'... Considering how many here complain about fees and costs associated with the industry, you would think there would be an appreciative audience for this kind of largess...

[Richie]

As a regular user of TG for 10 yrs, the special applies to everyone, it's extremely generous to say the least. And in my opinion the figs are second to none. Happy Holidays

[garyoz]

This is a very generous on Tgraph's part. Personally, I greatly appreciate it, and it makes the week between the Holiday's one of my favorite times to play and learn by studying the figures.

I don't think many of you guys have experience with The Sheets or Thorograph and just like to complain and bellyache. As an occasional user, and former regular user of The Sheets (almost 20 years ago) I hope that they pick up more customers.

BTW, my experience with Thorograph, The Sheets, and Equiform (The Xtra's) has never been anything but excellent. You buy a professional product and you get professional customer service.

My advice is get the data and try using it, maybe you'll learn something. You may also want to read the Ask the Experts forum on the Thorograph web site. (Unless you are afraid to register a user name and password).

[DJofSD]

just like to complain and bellyache.

Really? What makes you say that <BG>? And we haven't even mentioned politics!

[Zaf]

I agree it is a very nice offer and generous on their part, but I have zero interest in the product.

Z

[PaceAdvantage]

Bellyaching? Really? I just see a discussion of the subject at hand. Bringing up the credit card requirement is QUITE VALID given the title of this thread.But bellyaching? Nah....

[GMB@BP]

It is pretty simple in my opinion. He is giving away a week's worth of data, and to get it, you have to register to be a customer. He wants you to come back and purchase later of course.

That said, who is more likely to come back, someone already with an account that is ready to go, or someone that has to go through the whole process? It is strictly business.

I don't agree with some of JBs figure making theories, so its not like I'm trying to pimp his stuff, but I don't think I've ever heard a single complaint about his customer service or the way he treats customers. I seriously doubt there is anything to worry about.

Were you guys just asking as a form of complaining, or did you really not see this as the reason?

common sense opinions will be censored from now on.

[takeout]

There are no buts in free.

[Indulto]

Richie,
Thanks for the clarification. I suppose one could look at it as an end-of-year rebate, and even generous since not based on volume. An impressive promotion!

Considering that the word is now out on at least two discussion boards, an outstanding marketing job as well.

takeout,
The word “free” seems to have evolved over time. The “butt” in free could be yours. As much as I admire the promotion, I have to agree with you that placing one’s credit card number in cyberspace should never be done lightly or prematurely (even by elated e-jocks [thanks, ’statman’]).

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah, I'm really getting dicked here in terms of missed opportunity....love the guys with 1 or 2 posts to their credit, and invariably, one of those posts is hawking something or someone....:rolleyes:

Once the new year begins, guys are gonna have to pay to play this game.

[PaceAdvantage]

PS. I'd like to state for the record that my prior post in this thread was not specifically aimed at the originator of this thread, Kohl. It was a general statement based on frustration and recent events.

If I thought that Kohl was hawking for ThoroGraph, I would have canned the post immediately....

[Tom]

It's a good advertising idea for T-Graph - people get to use the product, get to see what it is all about, and a small percent will become customers. And it cost TG nothing top do - zero cost. The product is "made" anyway, and there are no shipping costs - just downloads.

So take it for what it is - Merry Christmas!

[blind squirrel]

i,ve used these free figs the last several years
during the holidays.i can remember using a "good fig"
at CALDER that paid $48.00......ho,ho,ho.

[Tom Barrister]

My guess is that a credit card is required for the same reason it's required for other things that minors are not supposed to have access to....they are covering their legal backside against anybody under 18 getting hold of it. No it won't stop a lot of people under 18 anyway....but it at frees Thorograph from liability.

[takeout]

Ah… Thanks. Now that sounds logical and I never gave it a thought. Still a deal breaker but nice to know that there may have been some logic behind that very strange (to me anyway) request for one’s CC# without a purchase.

[cj]

Minors can't have access to horse racing data? I find that hard to believe. I don't think I've went into any newsstands and had to go get the DRF from behind the wooden plank that hides the latest Penthouse or Hustler. There is no law against a 17 year old buying horse racing data.

I was a little baffled by the first post suggesting this was the reason, but decided to let it go. But then a secong saying "this sounds logical". Huh?

[takeout]

If it isn’t something like that then I’m still left without a logical reason. Maybe there isn’t one.

[PaceAdvantage]

The reason is called MARKETING. They are giving you something for free, but they'd like a little something in return. You give them some info, they now have a mailing list, or a customer who is MORE LIKELY to buy something in the future since their CREDIT CARD is already on file and ready to go....

It's marketing...nothing more, nothing less...

Nothing wrong with it, but that's what it is.....simple, eh?

[cj]

It's marketing...nothing more, nothing less...

Nothing wrong with it, but that's what it is.....simple, eh?

I said that already ;)

[takeout]

They are giving you something for free, but they'd like a little something in return.
Now what’s wrong with that sentence?

[BillW]

Now what’s wrong with that sentence?

If this "dishonesty" pisses you off so much why don't you write to Thoroughgraph and complain about it - it's getting old here! :bang:

[takeout]

Now you know what I felt like wasting my time going to the site. What’s getting old is the BS.

[PaceAdvantage]

No, it's not lying. It's free. You don't have to PAY any MONEY to get their FIGURES, which at every other time COSTS MONEY. Thus, IT'S FREE. Just because you have to provide some registration info doesn't mean it's not FREE.

You had to register on this board....would you say that this board isn't free?

What pisses ME off is all the FREE publicity they're getting HERE, even though *I* haven't designated this week as FREE ADVERTISING WEEK!!!!! :lol:

[traynor]

Indulto wrote: <"Try before you buy" is the only way to attract skeptical, if not cynical, new customers. By insisting that requests for evaluating commercially-viable data be honored only when there is no doubt they are both legitimate and qualified, the marketer appears to be keeping faith with its existing customer base.>
Not the "only" way. In fact, freebies tend to diminish the value of the product or service in the eyes of the user, rather than increase it. As for skeptical, cynical customers, those tend to be the ones who snivel and whine at every opportunity because they are "not satisfied" with their product or service. I think that anyone who insists on a "free trial" is simply looking for a freebie, and will continue doing so (regardless of how good the product or service may be) after the trial period is over.

More specifically, marketers have little or no interest in convincing skeptical, cynical prospects to buy. The "free trial" is a purely manipulative strategy to kick in a knee-jerk reciprocity response in the prospect; "I gave you something, now you owe me." Reciprocity is the issue, and the obligation so created, rather than "letting them see how good it is."

As for the credit card info up front, that is, again, simply good marketing. Once reciprocity has kicked in, the trick is to make it as easy as possible to complete the transaction. If the preliminary information is already in (via the "free trial period" constraints), all it takes to avoid the internal conflict of "I owe these people something" generating from the reciprocity imperative is clicking the "Order Now" button. Wheeeeeeee! Another skeptical, cynical user bites the dust, all through the wonders of human cognition (or in this case, a conditioned response generated by a clever manipulation of normal human functioning).

For more information on reciprocity, do a Google on Cialdini + girl scout cookies for a classic in the field.
Good Luck (and keep those free offers coming)

[Tom]

Anyone pointing a gun anyone's head making them try out the figs?

Sheez, if it's such a big deal, JUST SAY NO!

[Indulto]

Traynor wrote:
“. . . freebies tend to diminish the value of the product or service in the eyes of the user, rather than increase it. As for skeptical, cynical customers, those tend to be the ones who snivel and whine at every opportunity because they are "not satisfied" with their product or service. I think that anyone who insists on a "free trial" is simply looking for a freebie, and will continue doing so (regardless of how good the product or service may be) after the trial period is over. . . . “

While there appear to be some examples to support your opinion right here in this thread, not everyone is a lost cause, and the success of any marketing technique depends upon a) the level of need/desire addressed by the product/service, b) the existence of competition, c) the ability to target audiences with suitable levels of n/d, and d) the mfgr/vendor’s reputation or availability of references.

As an example, I tried the “Zone Alarm” firewall software for free on the recommendation of a friend and then purchased it after I saw that it outperformed the product I already owned. However, no learning curve or training was needed to use that software as “Sheets-type” data products do to develop a user's pattern-reading skills.

“Reciprocity” may sell Girl Scout cookies, but not costly on-line services -- data or otherwise.

[traynor]

Indulto wrote: <“Reciprocity” may sell Girl Scout cookies, but not costly on-line services -- data or otherwise.>

On the contrary, the more expensive the product or commitment, the higher the level of commitment created by reciprocity. I neglected to mention that Robert Cialdini is one of the most highly regarded (and highly paid) marketing consultants around. He also happens to be a professor of social psych in his spare time. The girl scout reference is to what professionals in marketing refer to as the "Click! Whirrrr!" effect. I chose the much nicer version to illustrate the concept.

The short version is that market manipulation is effective because most people cannot accept that they can be so easily manipulated. That is not to say that the service in question is manipulative; it is to make clear that the request for credit card information before providing "free information" is simply good marketing. Not mysterious at all.

Think about it. If the object was to simply display their wares, the more easily that could be accomplished, the more potential clients it would attract. That is, many prospects would immediately dust it as soon as the see the requirement for credit card information.
Good Luck

[Indulto]

Traynor wrote:
“ . . . it is to make clear that the request for credit card information before providing "free information" is simply good marketing. Not mysterious at all.

Think about it. If the object was to simply display their wares, the more easily that could be accomplished, the more potential clients it would attract. That is, many prospects would immediately dust it as soon as the see the requirement for credit card information.”

Frankly, exactly what your point was remains a mystery to me. My best guess would be that even though it is “good marketing” to require CC info, it immediately discourages many prospects, and doing so suggests the object was not to simply display their wares and attract more potential clients.

Please enlighten us as to what you think the objective of the promotion really is, and better still, how you would go about acquiring new business if you were responsible for marketing a racing data service.

[xfile]

Asking for a valid email address should be sufficient for giving something free. There is no valid marketing technique in asking for a credit card. THAT is a typical New York mentality strong arm tactic. Nothing against NY - I LOVE NY. Obviously if asking for a credit card to retrieve free info didn't bother those who reside outside the metropolis this thread would have ceased several days ago. :cool: I do not have a problem using my credit card online. I use it all the time for online purchases. But I, too, feel it is wrong to require this for the free info. It's wrong from a marketing standpoint (obviously - look at this thread!) and it is wrong in general......That's my 2 cents.....:cool:

[traynor]

Indulto wrote: <Frankly, exactly what your point was remains a mystery to me. My best guess would be that even though it is “good marketing” to require CC info, it immediately discourages many prospects, and doing so suggests the object was not to simply display their wares and attract more potential clients.>
You have it in a nutshell. It is a marketing ploy, with an upside and a downside. The downside is exactly as you stated--it drives off a lot of people who might otherwise become subscribers. The upside is that everyone who goes through the motions of "signing up" is pre-qualified; they follow directions, they think enough of the product or service to jump through a few hoops, and all it takes to close the deal is a few winners (or the promise of a few winners) and a click on a "Buy Now" button.

The fact that they opt for the pre-qualified few over the opportunity to impress the many indicates they have less faith in their product/service than offering "free samples" might make it seem. If I have any point in this, it is a healthy degree of skepticism at anyone offering something for nothing. There is usually a large price tag involved.
Good Luck

[Indulto]

Traynor wrote:
“The fact that they opt for the pre-qualified few over the opportunity to impress the many indicates they have less faith in their product/service than offering "free samples" might make it seem.”

I found your use of the word “faith” ironic since the support of “Sheets-type” products by their respective adherents sometimes appears to border on the religious. The confidence of the promoted product’s figure-maker in his methodology is considered extreme by some, as is the non-evangelical, low-key approach of his main competitor.

While the speed figures alone justify ether product’s use for some, the pattern-reading aspect sometimes requires considerable customer support – the burden of which not only makes the “pre-qualified few” approach quite sensible, but also mercifully eliminates the frustration experienced by those without the commitment to learning and understanding the underlying concepts.

I suppose it all comes down to whether one views one’s credit card as half-full or half-empty.

Happy Holidays, everybody.

[Vegas711]

What do they normally charge? unless you are confortable with paying this price then why try it for free for a week or so.

If its $20 per track i am not going to try something that i can't afford.

[DerbyTrail]

The fact that they opt for the pre-qualified few over the opportunity to impress the many indicates they have less faith in their product/service than offering "free samples" might make it seem. If I have any point in this, it is a healthy degree of skepticism at anyone offering something for nothing. There is usually a large price tag involved.
Good Luck

They aren't offering free samples of egg rolls like demo personnel at Sam's Club in hopes of getting a yutz like you to buy. A product like TG isn't geared for "the many"... You're busy applying a "QVC" mentality to this "scheme", while Thoro-Graph is marketed "Robb Report"-style...

For a final time, TG does this every year-end as a thank you to THEIR customers. In recent years, word has gotten out and many people who can't spend the money on TG during the year, or are hoping to learn how the methodology works, have used it as an opportunity to get the expensive info free. If some previously-unregistered punters sign on and become customers, that's fine with TG. If none do, that's OK too.

Maybe I'm wrong, but your self-aggrandizing over-analysis of this as some kind of grandiose Pavlovian ploy seems to have some other motivation behind it than simple edification of we drooling buffoons. And finally, as to faith in the product, those of us that cash tickets regularly using TG, including many of the biggest pro players in the game, will attest to the faith in the product and service. The "few" that are already in the know for many years are all the customers TG needs.

[DerbyTrail]

What do they normally charge? unless you are confortable with paying this price then why try it for free for a week or so.

If its $20 per track i am not going to try something that i can't afford.

Vegas..

Hoo.. RAH! A reasonable, logical horseplayer!

$25 for a TG book (if you order more on that day the price does drop for additional tracks..) And EXACTLY... if it's not something you're comfortable paying for without knowing anything about them, then what a great opportunity to try and get a feel for what they're all about.

During the year you can also follow the Race of the Week. Jerry Brown analyzes the race and tries to use it as an educating vehicle about patterns, figures, etc..

[garyoz]

Normal charges per day are $25 for the first track, $15 for the second and $10 for subsequent. You can also pick any nine races at any tracks on a given day for $25.

Ragozin and The Sheets are $35 per track.

The Xtra's at equiform are $20 for the major tracks and $15 for the minor tracks. They don't provide as many tracks as Thorograph or The Sheets.

They all are for serious players. They explain alot of the parimutual action, so even if you aren't using them directly, if you are playing alot of money it is useful to see the numbers.

They are used by many trainers and owners and jockey agents. For example, Ron Anderson, Bailey's agent uses The Sheets. I've also heard Baffert refer to them in an interview during the Triple Crown. etc.