Recent Events

[PaceAdvantage]

I have been thinking long and hard about what happened in the "Winning Thoroughbred Handicapper" thread. Several things bother me greatly about what "went down."

It is disturbing to read the responses Steverr1 received to his initial post, although I can understand why they were made. I myself got heated at one point and also lashed out at Steve a bit, and I regret that, because at this time, I have no reason not to believe he is who he says he is....but even if he was/is an impostor, it doesn't matter much to the issue I am about to address.

The last thing I want on this board is for people to be HESITANT to participate. Whether you are a newbie just starting out in this game, or a seasoned pro earning your income (and a significant one at that) from horse racing, you should be treated with respect as a new poster, unless of course you break the forum rules which are presented upon registration. A new poster should be given every benefit of the doubt until that poster proves through his or her actions that they don't deserve that benefit any longer.

In a perfect world, we should be welcoming with open arms a member like Steverr1. Someone with first hand experience at winning the war at the mutuel window is a rarity indeed, if we are to believe the pundits who like to proclaim that only 5% of us (if even that high) can be termed "long term winners" at the pari-mutuel racing game.

So why wasn't Steverr1 welcomed by some folks, myself included? Because long term members of this board have seen this song and dance before from people with less than honorable intentions. We're gun-shy now, and in looking to protect the integrity of this board, we tend to lash out at anyone making claims of such a grand nature. We browbeat them before they can make us look like fools once again, but we also risk looking like fools ourselves with our rabid defense....

There are already procedures in place to eliminate those who want to use this board as a means of commercial self-promotion without prior authorization. Not too many folks are going to get away with this kind of behavior for very long, so there isn't much sense in jumping down a newbie's throat because he looks like he "might" be setting us up for a sales-pitch later on down the line. I've learned (and am still learning) that you can't assume too much out here in cyberspace, because you usually end up wrong.

Moving forward, I will be looking to foster a more open and accepting atmosphere that should encourage both the inexperienced as well as the seasoned pros among us to participate in the ongoing discussions. Nothing saddens me more than to think there are handicappers out there who have decided not to share with us because of a fear of being ridiculed or attacked for what they have to say.

Steverr1 cried censorship when I closed the "Winning Thoroughbred Handicapper" thread. One of the reasons I closed the thread was to discourage the kind of response he was receiving, although at the time, I UNDERSTOOD why he was being confronted. But even if I think I understand what happened at that time, it doesn't make the response any more acceptable, especially going forward.

In the end, what I'm talking about here has little to do with what happened to Steverr1 as an individual poster, and everything to do with this website as a whole. For if our actions in the past have turned even one winning player off to the idea of participating on this message board, then THAT is the most disheartening form of CENSORSHIP that I can imagine.

[PaceAdvantage]

A followup:

In case someone new reading this particular thread is coming away with the impression that interesting discussions and the sharing of ideas does NOT occur on this site, I point you to this thread, Longshots are the Ticket to Success (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24232), which is a shining example of what should happen on this board.

There are many others.

[the little guy]

Pace, it's all in the delievery, and to me Steve got the responses he did because he basically asked for them. I think you have to ask yourself why he felt a necessity to anounce his arrival. There are many threads on this site, and certainly enough for ANYBODY to find a place to put in their two cents. But, he was unable to do that, and in fact did just the opposite.

If a poster has something to offer he ( or she ) will show that with their posts. We all have the same opportunity to demonstrate our knowledge of the game. Anybody that feels a necessity to boastfully present their supposed racing accomplishments is making themselves a lightning rod for abuse. It's not because of jealousy, or even necessarily disbelief, it's more a case of " oh not...not again ".

[PaceAdvantage]

TLG,

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you just wrote. I have to walk a fine line between allowing certain posters to "get what's coming to them", and protecting them from their own foolhardiness....

[boxcar]

So why wasn't Steverr1 welcomed by some folks, myself included? Because long term members of this board have seen this song and dance before from people with less than honorable intentions. We're gun-shy now, and in looking to protect the integrity of this board, we tend to lash out at anyone making claims of such a grand nature. We browbeat them before they can make us look like fools once again, but we also risk looking like fools ourselves with our rabid defense....

I believe you forgot one thing. Analyzer over on the Selections Forum nailed it down perfectly when he said:

Jealousy the BIG GREEN MONSTER has just JUMPED on many of your backs and you should be ASHAMED of yourselves. (emphasis his)

Track life, at any level, is a mirror image of reality in the world outside. In both worlds, there exist the Haves and Have Nots; and very often when people form these two groups meet, you can be pretty certain that at least some of the the Have Nots will be jealous of the Haves.

How many skeptics are there on this forum alone who seriously doubt anyone can make a good living at turf speculation? So, when someone like a Steve comes along and just merely claims to be a "long term winner", jealousy can quickly turn to anger or even rage. Of course, the jealousy itself is irrational.

For one thing, the Have Nots don't have the first clue as to what all is involved in achieving success. All the work. All the time invested. All the money required. And most importantly, all the difficult psychological battles that must be fought and won! The Have Nots tend to have a romantic and, therefore, unrealistic outlook on the game. If they really understood all these things, I think the vast majority would content themselves with just betting the few discretionary dollars they have and chalk it all up to entermaintent expenses when they lose -- which they inevitably will.

I can speak this way because of my own experiences on the Derby List. No matter how much "right" I tried to do over there -- whether this was in terms of general handicapping advice, very specific handicapping tips, or posting my selections in real time for validation purposes -- no mater what -- I could not please my detractors. On days when I jumped through hoops (tough cards, for example) to produce winners, that wasn't good enough. The next thing they expected was for me to jump through flaming hoops. And when they weren't satisfied with that little feat, then they wanted me to jump through hoops of fire with burning coals beneath my feet. And then in the end, after all was said and done, they buried their collective head in the sand to escape the reality of the results.

Jealousy is an extremely powerful and destructive passion. There are people on this forum (and all racing forums for that matter) who will not hesitate to express their hostilities toward those they perceive might have an [unfair] advantage over them. They look at such people as their "rivals". The Have Nots want what the Haves have without truly understanding the tremendous cost involved.

I, too, like Analyzer, believe that jealousy played a large part in the unfortunate unfolding of events that took place on Steve's thread. It was also sad that we all got to witness a little too much of the dark side of our human nature.

Boxcar

[the little guy]

TLG,

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you just wrote. I have to walk a fine line between allowing certain posters to "get what's coming to them", and protecting them from their own foolhardiness....

Here's a new rule for you....


No more " I am new here " threads.


And then if we can find a rule against self-promotion we'll be in great shape.


Now, excuse me, I'm busy writing up my " Friends and Associates in Racing " Thread. Ya know....I'm VERY big in this game!

[rokitman]

I think people are much too generous on here, and almost every other site, in their rationalizations of why they have some kind of moral authority to piss on a first time poster. If you are so sure the guy is full of shit after one post, you can go straight to your ignore list and put them on it and never see a post from that poster again, unless someone quotes them. Under what delusion does one think they should go to great lengths to tear somebody down when such a simple and thorough alternative exists? Because they might be a shill in your opinion?

Steve made an I Have Arrived first post. Like a guy with a big ego. I never thought I'd see the day when I quoted Donald Trump but here it is: Show me a guy with no ego and I'll show you a loser.

[twindouble]

I think people are much too generous on here, and almost every other site, in their rationalizations of why they have some kind of moral authority to piss on a first time poster. If you are so sure the guy is full of shit after one post, you can go straight to your ignore list and put them on it and never see a post from that poster again, unless someone quotes them. Under what delusion does one think they should go to great lengths to tear somebody down when such a simple and thorough alternative exists? Because they might be a shill in your opinion?

Steve made an I Have Arrived first post. Like a guy with a big ego. I never thought I'd see the day when I quoted Donald Trump but here it is: Show me a guy with no ego and I'll show you a loser.

Outside of the realm of gambling Trump it right. Horse player aren't out there selling their wares, it's a personal thing and in my opinion a big ego is a ticket to the poor house unless you have a ton of money to begin with. If you want equate confidence with ego, that's a different story.

PA is in a difficult place, tring to keep the door open to anyone and at the same time evaluate all that's said and how it's said, reminds me of the lounge I owned, the ones you least expect can cause trouble or get out of line with their mouth. Then there was the ones that had the bucks spent a lot but wanted all my attention and acted like they owned me, the lounge and snubbed the average patron like they didn't measure up. Well screw them. To put people on ignore is the ultimate snubb in some minds here, just ask Midnight. Big ego. Don't bother me. When PA says, I don't belong here then it's good by. He owns the place.

[boxcar]

Steve made an I Have Arrived first post. Like a guy with a big ego. I never thought I'd see the day when I quoted Donald Trump but here it is: Show me a guy with no ego and I'll show you a loser.

Okay...so Steve might have been a little naive when he posted like he did. So what? Some here justify their actions on the basis of his naivette, his cyberspace inexperience or even his ego. But isn't this analagous to rationalizing raping an attractive young woman because she's in a miniskit and low cut blouse? The same rationale is being used. "She deserved what she got", the rapist would say. Likewise, others here are blaming Steve for their actions.

Boxcar

[the little guy]

The rape analogy is as poor as it is somewhat horrifying.

The guy has been around, he's posted on the internet before, and there's little excuse for coming in here blowing his own horn. Has it occured to you that people on the Derby List may have a different version of the so-called poor treatment he claimed to receive there?

I find it hard to believe he was at all surprised by the reception he got.

[The Hawk]

Okay...so Steve might have been a little naive when he posted like he did. So what? Some here justify their actions on the basis of his naivette, his cyberspace inexperience or even his ego. But isn't this analagous to rationalizing raping an attractive young woman because she's in a miniskit and low cut blouse? The same rationale is being used. "She deserved what she got", the rapist would say. Likewise, others here are blaming Steve for their actions.

Boxcar

This analogy is not only wrong but it's offensive.

The guy's real intention or identity doesn't matter. He came across as a blowhard and a bullshit artist in his first post. Not saying he's either, but that's how he came across. First impressions go a long way. No one should apologize for being skeptical.

A better, and less violent, analogy might be hanging out in a bar with some friends, having a conversation about football, and having a pro football player of modest success come in abruptly and announce his accomplishments. You'd be skeptical at first. Then when he proved he was who he was you'd still think he was a blowhard.

BTW, PA, that was a great post. Stand up guy.

[Tom]

Normally, most of us DO welcome new people here. (I even said at one time "Eqineer" was a neat handle!:rolleyes: )

And though my first thought were this guy was a blowhard, I didn't say anything until he made a rude comment about HTR. I have a tremendous respect for Ken MAssa, who, along with all the JTR members went out their way to welcome me whn I was the newbie over there, and Andicap and I even got honored for traveling the farthest distance to their recent Las Vegas Seminar. So when some guy comes on the internet and puts down my methods, I have to respond like I did. No regrets. And Stevie boy will be on my ignore list from now on. But how about the sudden appearance of his supporters - one guy was calling YOU out in his 5th or 4th post! Come on.....I was born at night, but not last night. This was starting to be FrankGUru and Kat all over again. It was getting in-Sain!

From now on, though, I will be a bit quicker witht he ignore button, to resisst temptation. And I think most folk who stumble on to this site stay, lurk, and eventually post. For the one or two you loose, I think you keep more, and most of us will always give them the benifit of the doubt and welcome them. (I think I even welcomed VetScratch, too!:eek: )

[the little guy]

I too was enjoying the average number of posts for Steve's supporters.

It's sort of the opposite for me....the more posts.....the more they hate me!

[Tom]

I too was enjoying the average number of posts for Steve's supporters.

It's sort of the opposite for me....the more posts.....the more they hate me!

But you are such a sweetheart in person! :kiss:

They gotta get to Toga....mellow out.

[boxcar]

The rape analogy is as poor as it is somewhat horrifying.

The guy has been around, he's posted on the internet before, and there's little excuse for coming in here blowing his own horn. Has it occured to you that people on the Derby List may have a different version of the so-called poor treatment he claimed to receive there?

I find it hard to believe he was at all surprised by the reception he got.

The analogy may be "horrifying" but it's an accurate one. In both cases, people are justifying their conduct on the basis of someone else's behavior. In the girl's case, based on her immodest dress, maybe. In Steve's case based on an egotistical sounding post, perhaps.

Re the DL -- nope, I gave it no thought one way or the other. I made no value judgment about the fairness or truthfulness of his sentiments since I wasn't there to witness anything. However, having said this, I can tell you from my own experiences in that place that the DL most certainly wasn't (and probably still isn't) the paragon of hospitiality, cordiality and civility. More than a few people exited that list in the six years or so I was there out of their utter disgust to the all-too-frequent hostilities, bickerings and flame wars. If a poster doesn't fit into a certain mold on that list, he or she can expect trouble.

Boxcar

[Indulto]

Lots of excitement and fireworks! What else could a member ask for? A happy ending? Not very likely – too much blood spilled in too many directions. PA was right to shut it down. If he erred, it was letting it go on too long once things started getting ugly.

It’s certainly to PA’s credit that discussion is taking place as to what went wrong. I’m guilty of reading the introductory post and then dismissing the poster out of hand. I didn’t read the rest of the thread until the post-mortem was already underway. It appeared to me that it wasn’t just a case of people jumping on the newbie, but of people jumping on each other while the newbie (cluelessly?) played the fiddle.

To his credit, the newbie didn’t get bent out of shape until the thread was closed. If, after reading the comments by PA and others in this thread, he still declines to post, it’s not on PA’s head.

Onward and upward boys and girls!

[the little guy]

I'm not going to have a fight with you about your analogy but I think at the very least there may be a sensitivity issue involved.

I am not a reader of the Derby List ( except when I'm psychoanalyzed there ). My point was that he is no novice to the internet and I would guess there is at least a correlation between what happened there and what happened here.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Not to worry- I told him the British forums are probably more polite! :)

[cato]

This is a mighty sensitive place for a bunch of macho handicappers :cool:

I don't think anything went wrong, except a few people twisting off and showing their true colors, like Mr. Barrister (that was pretty odd).

It's sociology and psychology and Animal Planet 101. When a new (a) handicapper, (b) human, (c) lion --- shows up for the first time at a new (i) internet discussion board, (ii) party, home or office, (iii) lion's den...

there better be some deference shown, some effort to get along, some period where the newbie pays their dues in some way or there will be a fight of some kind.

Duh.

So if someone wants to show up and approach it the way Steve has approached it then he/she/it will be beaten about the head and shoulders for awhile. And that's true for any social setting in the human or animal world

Yes, some people overreacted and went too far but really, in the last 3 years how many people have showed up with a similar announcement and then turned out to be the genuine article? Uh, zero, I believe. So skepticism was in order (and still is)

Personally I hope Steve stays and we get beyond this internet insanity that has gripped our little community so that there can be some good, substantive posts as opposed to people taking sides in the pro-Steve or anti-Steve camps.....

But, having said that, many of us are acting like Pam Anderson showed up at our group meeeting, dropped her top and asked "who's first?" SInce that has not happened, let's get over it and move on

CHeers, Cato

[boxcar]

This thread has to represent what group therapy must be like. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[analyzer]

PA- I have to say you are a stand up guy and I applaud your reflection and re-examination. I am giving you a standing ovation. I know you must try to be Fair and Human at the same time and I am sure this is a difficult balancing act. I do not envy your position but I do appreciate the forum you provide. I hope we all increase our level of tolerance and hit the ignore button if we feel it is necessary instead of exhibiting a Lynch Mob mentality. My ole Dad always told me before you write anything down and sign your name to it, it is hearsay, if you write it down and attach your name you are Guilty of something, Good, Bad, or Indifferent. One of the toughest things for me to conquer in life was making sure my Brain engages before my Mouth. I am still a work in progress myself but I am trying to make progress. We are All human and we All make mistakes or errors in judgement. I read a book now and then which states only One Perfect One who walked here and He was Crucified. Might be a good learning experience somewhere in that phrase if a person is willing. Thanks again and Best of Luck to All.

[rrpic6]

Did Steve leave here already? Did the Young and the Restless come a callin?:cool: His horse at TBD ran a valiant 2nd on Sat. Too bad he said he'd scratch it if race came off the turf. Can't wait to see what happens next.:eek: :sleeping: Maybe Steve jumps on a White Horse and rides on over to Michael Gill's place and frees all those lovely animals from a fate worse than death.

[xfile]

Why does long term profit elude so many players? It's really the simpler the better:


Bet overlays only
Place WIN BETS only
Skip races that do not offer an edge
Apply a good money management plan

I've made alot of mistakes this year and still producing at a +12% clip....plus 3% rebates = 15%. I plan to boost that 5% in 2006 up to 20% net. And it was only when I switched to this game plan did the long term profit come. I spent many years losing money and learning what not to do.

[douglasw32]

This is off topic for this post but maybe you (or any of you) could start a post explaining "1.", I get all the rest, but "1." seems to be very very subjective. Could use a good understanding of, what,when, etc an overlay "IS" an overlay.

Then "we" can all get back to talking handicapping ;)

[highnote]

Lots of excitement and fireworks! What else could a member ask for? A happy ending? Not very likely – too much blood spilled in too many directions. PA was right to shut it down. If he erred, it was letting it go on too long once things started getting ugly.


PA is like the baseball manager who has to decide how long to leave his starting pitcher in when the pitcher is starting to give up too many hits.

It's a tough call. You leave the pitcher in -- he loads up the bases. You pull the pitcher, you hurt his confidence and you never know if he could have got out of the inning. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

PA -- you ever think about managing a baseball team? :D

[Indulto]

Swetyejohn,

Why not take a poll as to which post number in that thread the armchair administrators would have pulled the plug?

[Tom]

Armchair admimistrator?
Internet manners seem to be missing here.
This is PA's house and we are guests here.
Hiding behind a montior is no excuse for rudeness.

[DJofSD]

"Talk to the hand" (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=Bc6vLxgCIF&isbn=1592401716&itm=2)

[linrom1]

Number one, if you want to make money, you have to play exotics.

Stay away from Tampa, it's a wiseguy track.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Many newbies and older members have been trashed when others think they are bragging or have an "agenda". That is why I am always suprised when anyone attempts to find out what % win or how much- I'll never again tell! and No more thinking about books or public handicapping!LOL!

[boxcar]

This analogy is not only wrong but it's offensive.

The guy's real intention or identity doesn't matter. He came across as a blowhard and a bullshit artist in his first post. Not saying he's either, but that's how he came across. First impressions go a long way. No one should apologize for being skeptical.

I wasn't aware we were discussing people's "skepticism" -- unless, of course, this term has now evolved to become synonymous with rudeness, discourteousness or inhospitality. But I think skepticism is one thing, and these others are something else again -- the former not at all necessitating the expression of any of these latter onerous qualities.

Boxcar

[tomcg]

Just goes to show that we horseplayers come in many shapes and forms and tend to get opinionated and emotional. Wonder if any of those traits carry over to our horse racing sucess (or lack of). Anyhow welcome to psychology 101, Human Nature.

[Indulto]

Hey,Tom, didn't Chaquita deliver this morning?


Have you ever heard the term “armchair quarterback?” How are “missing manners”, “hiding”, and “rudeness” relevant to my post. Whether your intention was to chastise or insult, it’s clear you didn’t catch the humor. Maybe I should have used “Monday morning” rather than “armchair.”

[toetoe]

Diminutive One,

Your "Friends And Associates In Racing" must be about as thick as my semi-autobiographical tome, "Irish Who's Who."

[kenwoodallpromos]

"It is disturbing to read the responses Steverr1 received to his initial post, although I can understand why they were made. I myself got heated at one point and also lashed out at Steve a bit, and I regret that, because at this time, I have no reason not to believe he is who he says he is....but even if he was/is an impostor, it doesn't matter much to the issue I am about to address.

The last thing I want on this board is for people to be HESITANT to participate."
I thought PA was saying he closed the thread because people's skepticism turned to flaming and that is why it was censored and closed. Now keilan is requested a thread he began about Steve be closed.
Before long Steve may set the PA record for being the subject of the most closed threads!LOL!! :faint:

[turfbar]

Number one, if you want to make money, you have to play exotics.

Stay away from Tampa, it's a wiseguy track.


I'm sorry but I need an explanation what a "wiseguy" track is?

Turfbar

[fight]

bottom line WE LOST A GOOD MAN .

[GaryG]

I checked him out and found much of the same info that Ken had posted. He owns a multi-state private investigation firm that specializes in nursing home abuse, has owned a lot of horses including several SW and is a solid citizen. He was a former cop or detective in North Carolina. Still don't know what his agenda was here and I guess we never will. Certainly was a strange interlude though. Wonder if Santa will return before Christmas.

[BIG RED]

bottom line WE LOST A GOOD MAN .

...and have a Good man. That took a lot for PA to start this thread, very honest.

[Vegas711]

Maybe we need a new folder for the newbees we can call it BASIC TRAINING.
This way the new people can get in a little training before they hit the battle fields with all the long time posters. This way they will be toughened up a bit, their skin will not be so thin. In this new folder you will not be allowed to be a critic, no matter how stupid someone may come accross.:lol:

[linrom1]

I'm sorry but I need an explanation what a "wiseguy" track is?

Turfbar

When a guy like Steve can come here and pick 8-8 winners on the first day of the meet at a track like Tampa, I need to play somewhere else.

[keilan]

When a guy like Steve can come here and pick 8-8 winners on the first day of the meet at a track like Tampa, I need to play somewhere else.



Maybe if you hadn’t been so rude to a longtime member and asked him to take his selections somewhere else you might have witnessed another pretty good day.

Hey rr you’re a wiseguy now and nice picking :cool:

[Tom]

Who picked 8 for 8?
Didn't happen.